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Re: And it begins again....
chuckynut (IP Logged)
30 November, 2017 10:32
Quote:
Olly
So do I. Can’t see any way Bristol can benefit from a split league. In reality being the newly promoted club we would in all probability end up in the lower league of the two. In essence exactly where we are today. Back where we started.

If its a ringfenced and properly funded 2 league structure with 20 teams and 2 up and down the differential between the 2 leagues will narrow and so relegation will not become such a big deal. It essentially becomes like the county cricket structure.

On top of that you can add in some innovative cup competitions involving all 20 teams and possibly some Welsh or Irish teams to replace the meaningless domestic cups we currently have.

The above seems to me to have more commercial appeal overall than the current structure and provides a structure that might attract proper investment in more than 12 clubs. Overall for the professional game in England that should be a good thing and long term it should be for all the clubs involved.


If we're not good enough to finish in the top 8 in a year, we're not good enough.

 
Re: And it begins again....
Peter D (IP Logged)
30 November, 2017 10:55
County Cricket is NOT a good model. There is little mobility between the leagues. There are 4 who are almost always in the First Division, 4 who never will be and the rest yo-yo between the leagues. Occasionally something surprising happens. I give it five years before cricket dismantles first class cricket apart from, perhaps, six city based teams who will play 10 games a season and the rest will be cut adrift. T20, of course is a different matter.

 
Re: And it begins again....
Standardprocedure (IP Logged)
30 November, 2017 11:11
There is little mobility between the leagues. There are 4 who are almost always in the First Division, 4 who never will be and the rest yo-yo between the leagues.

What you've described is not an awful lot different from the current state of play in tier 1 and 2 of english rugby.

 
Re: And it begins again....
Furriner (IP Logged)
30 November, 2017 12:02
If I had to opt for change(!) I’d vote for exploring the British & Irish League idea. It’d entail so much squabbling and horse trading over four national versions of EQP (or not), whether to disqualify players who want to play abroad, number of teams to have protected status in the top division, etc that it’d be unlikely to ever get off the drawing board. Not to mention the fuss World Rugby would make about Italy being left out in the cold.

 
Re: And it begins again....
Peter D (IP Logged)
30 November, 2017 12:49
Quote:
Standardprocedure
There is little mobility between the leagues. There are 4 who are almost always in the First Division, 4 who never will be and the rest yo-yo between the leagues.
What you've described is not an awful lot different from the current state of play in tier 1 and 2 of english rugby.

Yep, and that's not a great model either.

Two well marketed and funded divisions of pro rugby in England could well be a big improvement on what we have - at least for the supporters, the state of the game, the quality of the international side. The most probable losers are likely to be the owners - and their the people who will decide (i.e. not the RFU).

 
Re: And it begins again....
chuckynut (IP Logged)
30 November, 2017 13:20
Quote:
Peter D
County Cricket is NOT a good model. There is little mobility between the leagues. There are 4 who are almost always in the First Division, 4 who never will be and the rest yo-yo between the leagues. Occasionally something surprising happens. I give it five years before cricket dismantles first class cricket apart from, perhaps, six city based teams who will play 10 games a season and the rest will be cut adrift. T20, of course is a different matter.

That's incorrect, it's much less predictable who goes up and down. One one of the most yo yo of teams is one of the richest (Surrey) which does indicate that this is a structure that doesn't allow the largest teams to dominate.

Besides which the effect is likely to be quite different with rugby which, unlike cricket, does attract significant investment to clubs beyond hand outs from the governing body. A ring fenced structure with more teams which are competitive should increase this.

I don't advocate much else about county cricket as a model to follow though and don't disagree about where it will end up, but that's a lot to do with the appeal of the 3/4/5 day game.

 
Re: And it begins again....
Rinkadink (IP Logged)
30 November, 2017 13:41
14 team (or more) league seems to be the way to go.

Look at all the other major rugby competitions around the world and they all seem to sucessfully follow that structure. It's tried and tested.

It's what happens beneath that; how we grow the game from grassroots to the top. Don't make the mistakes Rugby League did and continue to, they look upon Union with envy regarding the money and exposure we have. They had that at one time but threw it away.

 
Re: And it begins again....
Peter D (IP Logged)
30 November, 2017 16:39
The future of first class cricket has less to do with the appeal of the game than it has to do with the simplistic belief of administrators that T20 is the only form of the game that can generate interest or be successfully marketed. That's because they never learn. One day cricket was once regarded as the salvation of the game. Marketing would help (just as it would help the RFU Championship). One Day cricket is considered to be a moribund form of the game. T20 will surely go the same waymarketed, becauselit is fundamentally a less skillfulgame - which is not to say that is without merit or won't continue to be successful.


As for teams like Surrey, all the evidence is that the strongest (wealthiest?) counties are getting stronger while others will wither. There can always be teams that might buck that trend.

 
Re: And it begins again....
Jim H (IP Logged)
30 November, 2017 19:58
For me,if the game went ring fenced (and I hope it doesn't), then American footballs structure would be good. Two conferences, rather than leagues, of 10 with a big end of season play offs. Top 2 (each conference) play off for the championship, qualifying for Euro Cup by rights, next 4 for last play off for last two Euro Cup places, bottom 4 play for wedding in euro 2nd shield.

Season starts with the draft - bottom team gets pick of players from RFU/PRL funded/run academies.

 
Re: And it begins again....
Field marshall (IP Logged)
30 November, 2017 22:12
I could deal with ringfencing but it would need to be temporary. I have no interest in a British and Irish league whatsoever and I hop we never see it. The AP is brilliant and the historic rivalries are brilliant. It's good for English rugby, which is the whole point of it. Chuck union owned teams with no threat of relegation so resting players for the good of their national teams and it will become rubbish very quickly. the ONLY reason they'd want to join is to get a share of the TV money which would mean less for English clubs.
2 leagues of ten teams means spaces for 10 English teams, I very much doubt we'd be one of the ten and others (wuss, LI) would also miss out. Why should we/they?
Screw that.

 
Re: And it begins again....
chuckynut (IP Logged)
30 November, 2017 22:24
Quote:
Jim H
For me,if the game went ring fenced (and I hope it doesn't), then American footballs structure would be good. Two conferences, rather than leagues, of 10 with a big end of season play offs. Top 2 (each conference) play off for the championship, qualifying for Euro Cup by rights, next 4 for last play off for last two Euro Cup places, bottom 4 play for wedding in euro 2nd shield.
Season starts with the draft - bottom team gets pick of players from RFU/PRL funded/run academies.

Like that!

 
Re: And it begins again....
Olly (IP Logged)
01 December, 2017 05:06
Quote:
Field marshall
I could deal with ringfencing but it would need to be temporary. I have no interest in a British and Irish league whatsoever and I hop we never see it. The AP is brilliant and the historic rivalries are brilliant. It's good for English rugby, which is the whole point of it. Chuck union owned teams with no threat of relegation so resting players for the good of their national teams and it will become rubbish very quickly. the ONLY reason they'd want to join is to get a share of the TV money which would mean less for English clubs.
2 leagues of ten teams means spaces for 10 English teams, I very much doubt we'd be one of the ten and others (wuss, LI) would also miss out. Why should we/they?
Screw that.

Totally agree we have been fighting to get out of the championship for far to many years now do we really want the premiership split into two with the prospect of us being back where we started in the second tier albeit called by another name? I don’t. I want us to be given a fair chance to make the top. Haven’t we earned our chance? Maybe it’s a single minded or even a very narrow minded & selfish point of view?? But it’s mine & I stick with it.



My glass is again full now bring on the rugby.

 
Re: And it begins again....
bris_rob (IP Logged)
01 December, 2017 09:07
It's all very well floating these interesting league structure ideas around but if we have the ambition to be one of strongest English (and European) clubs we should also be confident of playing in the top tier whatever its structure.

We have the finances, stadium and infrastructure most clubs look at with envy. Bristol Rugby have absolutely no excuses now (no playoffs) if we cannot put together a squad capable of maintaining its Premiership status. I am not taking our promotion for granted (yet) and I'm under no illusions that there is still a lot of hard work to do to build that premiership squad. I think we are well short at the moment but we are definitely moving in the right direction and a lot will depend on our recruitment in the new year.

If Bristol do make it to the premiership next season we absolutely need to hit the ground running and be confident that we have a squad that can compete against the likes of Sarries, Wasps and Exeter. That's where we fell flat on our faces last time. For whatever reasons (there were several), we were totally underprepared.

Whatever, we live in interesting and potentially exciting times and I am loving the journey. C'mon Bris!

 
Re: And it begins again....
Rich. (IP Logged)
01 December, 2017 10:09
Quote:
bris_rob
It's all very well floating these interesting league structure ideas around but if we have the ambition to be one of strongest English (and European) clubs we should also be confident of playing in the top tier whatever its structure.
We have the finances, stadium and infrastructure most clubs look at with envy. Bristol Rugby have absolutely no excuses now (no playoffs) if we cannot put together a squad capable of maintaining its Premiership status. I am not taking our promotion for granted (yet) and I'm under no illusions that there is still a lot of hard work to do to build that premiership squad. I think we are well short at the moment but we are definitely moving in the right direction and a lot will depend on our recruitment in the new year.

If Bristol do make it to the premiership next season we absolutely need to hit the ground running and be confident that we have a squad that can compete against the likes of Sarries, Wasps and Exeter. That's where we fell flat on our faces last time. For whatever reasons (there were several), we were totally underprepared.

Whatever, we live in interesting and potentially exciting times and I am loving the journey. C'mon Bris!

I agree to an extent Rob BUT if we had a 10 team English Prem then even all of SL's money would not guarantee seasons where we (like almost all the other teams) don't have to worry about relegation. Yes we have the money to bring in a great squad but: (a) some of the very best won't want to come until they know we will play in the Champions Cup; and (b) the current (other) top 9 teams all have great squads as well and we will rightly be restricted in our spend by the salary Cap. Bath were close to relegation the other season with a team full of internationals, Glaws have struggled in recent years with a great squad and so have Saints. There is a view that Sarries are a better team than England and, considering the number of England players they have and the fact they train together every week, that might well be so (or at least during the last two seasons). By that reckoning Exeter are also up at or near that level and Wasps also on their day etc etc. So at least for the first few seasons back up our stadium, owner, Head Coach etc in no way guarantee us survival even if we recruit the likes of Jonny Gray and perform well as a team. A 10 team Prem would make life even harder at least early doors

 
Re: And it begins again....
BigO (IP Logged)
05 December, 2017 13:47

 
Re: And it begins again....
BigO (IP Logged)
06 December, 2017 14:21
Bit of an update from yesterday's Guardian. Looks like no decisions until the end of the season, but change is inevitable, and everything is on the table.


[www.theguardian.com]

The Rugby Football Union is open to the possibility of getting rid of promotion and relegation to and from the Premiership, according to its chief executive, Steve Brown.

The RFU has traditionally been against ring-fencing the top flight but Brown conceded that as discussions continue over how the domestic structure fits in with the global calendar from 2020 onwards, its stance has changed somewhat.

As revealed by the Guardian last week, reducing the Premiership to 10 teams is also among a host of suggestions previously made and Brown admitted it may take until the end of the season to reach a resolution, more than a year after Premiership Rugby Limited announced its intention to extend its season to 10 months, adding, “There’s no specific plan of action at this point”. Brown also hinted that doing away with one or both of the A League and the Anglo-Welsh Cup may also be part of the solution.

“We’re looking at all options, but there’s no specific consideration of numbers [of teams in each league] at the moment, whether it’s the first or second level, at this stage,” he said. “It’s not just about number of teams in the league, it’s also about the number of competitions played within the season.

“Our historic view would be the same, that promotion and relegation is the right thing. But going forward, the world is changing rapidly, the dynamics are changing [and] we’re trying to fit the season together. If it has to change, for the benefit of the game overall, why would we close our mind to it?”

 
Re: And it begins again....
henlil (IP Logged)
12 December, 2017 20:59

 
Re: And it begins again....
EverOptimistic (IP Logged)
12 December, 2017 22:40
Quote:

Very!

 
Re: And it begins again....
Big Dave (IP Logged)
13 December, 2017 01:43
Scrum half sorted.

Who is that then?

 
Re: And it begins again....
BigO (IP Logged)
13 December, 2017 07:41
Very interesting article on many fronts! The next few months could be very exciting.

Yet again though, it underlines how important Steve Lansdown is to our future success. We are so lucky to have him steering the ship.

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