rugbyunion
Latest News:
Untitled Document

Goto Page: 1234Next
Current Page: 1 of 4
And it begins again....
Motherrucker1982 (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 06:26
Article in the times this morning about blooming ringfencing again....

ĎScrapping relegation from the Aviva Premiership is back on the agenda and will be discussed at a senior level within the RFU tomorrow.

English rugby has had promotion and relegation ever since the league system began 30 years ago. This year Premiership Rugby announced that it was finally burying the notion of ring-fencing the top division. It did not stay buried for long ó and there is growing support for it now.
When the RFUís professional game board meets tomorrow, the structure of the game in England will dominate the debate, and ring-fencing will be a part of that. If promotion and relegation are suspended, it is likely that there will be occasional access to the top tier.í

This is getting a tad ridiculous - I know weíve been over this several times already but I personally canít see how it canít happen, given how poorly managed and run the lower tiers are in terms of funding.

Dare I ask for thoughts?

 
Re: And it begins again....
Motherrucker1982 (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 06:33
Owen Slot (Chief Sports Writer at The Times) has his say:

Everyone I spoke to on this subject yesterday warned: letís not get ahead of ourselves here. However, on two points we can be clear: 1) the idea to scrap promotion and relegation between the Premiership and the Championship has not gone away, and 2) the topic will be disinterred at the professional game board (PGcool smiley meeting at the RFU tomorrow. I am not even sure how deep it was ever buried.

For the medium-term future, though, it would appear that opposition to a ring-fencing of the Premiership is fading. Indeed, the reasons that would fuel this argument look increasingly weak.

Before the traditionalists start perspiring: ring-fencing is not about to happen tomorrow. More to the point, if the fence does go up, and I suspect it is probably more a case of when, it will not be hermetically sealed. There will be doors that open, occasionally, in and out.

Yes, doing an Exeter is the romantic dream, the reality is that no one is in a position to do an Exeter
As a theory, now, it makes sense. In its present form, the Greene King IPA Championship does not work. The league as a competition is a foregone conclusion. Bristol have a player salary budget of about £5 million which is five times almost all of the rest. The salary of Stephen Luatua, Bristolís star back-row forward, is, on its own, roughly twice as much as Richmond spend on their entire squad.

The imbalance is preposterous. Not surprisingly, then, Bristol are unbeaten; the only question is when they are officially uncatchable. Really, they were uncatchable from the start.

There are no play-offs, now. So, even if we do accept that first place is gone, there is no end-of-season drama, no big-game finale. Second place in the Championship wins £60,000. This is a season about a small cheque.

The real drama is at the other end. The real game is fear of relegation and, since Rotherham look destined for the drop, just wait a few weeks until other clubs are more confident of their survival because, at that point, they will start cutting contracts and putting out of work the players they could never afford in the first place.

No, the finance doesnít work there either. Bedford and Richmond aside, everyone operates at a loss.

So the Championship doesnít work. At this point, of course, we have to trawl through the Exeter precedent. If you ring-fence the Premiership, then you remove the possibility of rising from the depths, of ďdoing an ExeterĒ. Yes, doing an Exeter is the romantic dream, the reality is that no one is in a position to do an Exeter. No one is close.

London Welsh went up and committed suicide in the process. The only thing that kept Bedford alive in 2000 was coming down. Of the 12 Championship clubs, Bristol want to go up and will, Yorkshire Carnegie want to in theory but are not even close; if any of the other ten said they wanted a taste of the Premiership, they would be either lying or mad.

It was different in Exeterís day anyway. When they were promoted, the Premiership salary cap was £4 million. That is a considerable jump from the average £1 million spend of most Championship clubs; now that the Premiership cap, with marquee players and other exemptions, can stretch to £8.5 million, it is a leap too far. That is why the only clubs that go up are the ones that have just come down.

Yorkshire Carnegie, supposedly the next in line, are going nowhere fast. Quite the opposite, they have actually reduced their total salary bill this year. Why spend money on players when youíll never catch Bristol? Thatís why they are sixth in the Championship.

Their plan is to complete two years of refurbishment on their stadium. Then they will redirect their funds into the playing staff. An optimistic estimation is that they may have a squad approaching Premiership survival standards in four yearsí time.

So letís open the door in the fence in four yearsí time. Once every four or five years, have a look and if there is another Exeter, organise a play-off system. Itís not hard, itís just sensible.

How would it affect the Premiership? Yes, it would remove the drama of the relegation battle, but in three of the past four years, that drama has barely existed.

Of the 12 Championship clubs, Bristol want to go up and will, Yorkshire Carnegie want to in theory but are not even close
In exchange, security at the foot of the Premiership would allow those clubs to take some risks with their up-and-coming players. As it is, their priority is survival, so they prioritise survival rugby and they recruit tried-and-tested old hands from abroad in order to play it.

The problem in all this is that there are 13 clubs of near-enough Premiership quality and room for 12 of them. Two years ago, the Premiership considered and rejected expanding to 14 (the 13 plus Yorkshire Carnegie). Now the question is back on the table: do they go to 13 (which means two more weekends and everyone getting one weekend off each half of the season)? Or does it come down to the survival of the fittest?

Bristol are going up and will stay. London Irish and Worcester Warriors would be at risk. It just so happens that both clubs are up for sale.

All of this is part of a bigger conversation that the PGB will be having tomorrow. The agenda is the new structured season. Ring-fencing in itself is not an item on the agenda, but it is very much part of the new structured season discussion.

For the fence to be erected it would require approval from the PGB, then council and finally rubber stamping from the RFU board. It is some way off, but it is back on the table and it has a growing support.

 
Re: And it begins again....
Gray_Lensman (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 07:54
Part of the problem is that it is always seen as one of insufficient funding of Tier 2, as if somehow it is more deserving than Tier 3 etc.

On the other hand you could ask what the Tier 2 clubs are actually doing about running themselves in a commercial sense, building infrastructure, increasing revenue and so on. They seem to see it as the responsibility of the RFU and not theirs.

The brutal solution is to take the Championship under the wing of PRL and cut that loose from the rest of the game. Let's see how quickly the Championship clubs suddenly think ring fencing is a good idea when it is them inside the fence.

Then you could start messing around with the internal structure. Regional pools and the like.

 
Re: And it begins again....
Furriner (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 07:59
Canít say I like the idea, and have always felt itís morally wrong and unsporting. But the argument in favour is persuasive (on the surface at least). Thereís no real competition in the Champ at present, not because the other clubs are hopeless, but because below tier 1 rugbyís funding is dire. So letís put all our eggs in the ring-fencing basket and the Prem clubs will fill their squads with young English blokes. Fair enough, but how will those young blokes get there if we destroy the other pro or semi pro tiers?

 
Re: And it begins again....
AlexInSouthville (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 08:00
I think the quality of rugby would improve in the absence of relegation, as the consequences of finishing 12th/12 rather than 9/12 will be far less.

It would also allow better budgeting, and allow clubs to target organic growth.

So while we may not see an 'Exeter', where a Championship club rises to power, the flip side is that clubs such as Newcastle and Sale (and Bristol) will be in a much better position to challenge the Top 4.

 
Re: And it begins again....
Standardprocedure (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 08:40
Like it or not, this country can only sustain one fully professional league without massive subsidies from the governing body.

I used to be an old romantic and dead against ring-fencing. But when you look at the yo-yo effect of promotion and relegation, coupled with the fact that many clubs in the championship either have no ambition to be promoted or no realistic prospect of surviving in the prem (on the field or off) in the event that they got there, it's clear that a part-ringfenced prem is the only viable long-term solution.

 
Re: And it begins again....
Jimeno (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 09:26
It's apparent that the current system has problems so somewhat reluctantly I think I'm for ring-fencing.


But with two provisos; there must be arrangements such that lower leagues benefit from it, and the doorway to promotion must not be closed permanently.

 
Re: And it begins again....
Spiderweb (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 10:48
Ring fence. Then offer a large prize for winning the championship. £x millions. If a team wins the championship several times they maybe resourced enough to knock on the premierships door to be asked in.
Incentives are required for any ambitious team(s).

 
Re: And it begins again....
Portisteve (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 11:00
nah - need threat of relegation - need at least playoff bottom of prem / top of champ as a double header with premiership title



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28/11/2017 11:00 by Portisteve.

 
Re: And it begins again....
BigO (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 11:20
I've always been a bit on the fence (no pun intended) around this, but the current realities of both the financial and competitive weaknesses in the Championship don't leave a huge amount of options.

As many others have said, unless tier 2 and 3 clubs get more help from the RFU/PRL, it will just continue to spiral downwards. The irony is that all of this is happening at the same time that more and more money is going into the top tier.... so there is something fundamentally wrong.

For what it's worth, I don't think a period of ring-fencing would have a detrimental impact on the quality or competitiveness of rugby in the premiership. I can't say I find the annual relegation battle between the same old teams a compelling spectacle - maybe it was once, but now I find it tedious.

Hopefully there will be a creative plan put forward, but I wouldn't bet my mortgage.

 
Re: And it begins again....
AGS (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 11:38
Owen Slot's article says a lot about Leedshire but conveniently fails to consider Ealing, which would undermine his narrative of our promotion being a nailed-on certainty in his view (if only!).

On a related note, aren't Ealing proposing to ground share with Brentford if they go up, which is the same ground Irish are apparently considering? If Irish go down this season, and we go up, next season's championship could be between two clubs proposing the same ground share and not that far from each other (Irish's training ground is 14 miles from Ealing's ground). What's the betting that should Ealing win, there is a financial push for Irish to suggest a merger in order to get immediately back in the Prem?

 
Re: And it begins again....
AlexInSouthville (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 12:15
Quote:
Portisteve
nah - need threat of relegation

Just curious - why do you think the threat of relegation is needed? What benefit do you think it has?

 
Re: And it begins again....
Big Dave (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 12:15
All that shows is that Ealing won't be a successful premiership club in the short to medium term.

Which they won't get the chance to anyway as there is no way they are going to catch us this year.

 
Re: And it begins again....
Portisteve (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 12:49
Quote:
AlexInSouthville
Quote:
Portisteve
nah - need threat of relegation

Just curious - why do you think the threat of relegation is needed? What benefit do you think it has?

Because I feel that it does stop complacency. It does make for more interesting fixtures (even if you are on the wrong side of it) and those heroic performances along the way are much more relevant (the hope after Bath game etc).

If you are safe every season, and have nothing to push for - lack of funding etc so you cant compete for top 6 then what do you have to play for (other than the love of the game)? I think you would probably end up with more "mercenaries" who turn up for a pay check without having any pressure on their performances - the drive to become better simply wont be there

 
Re: And it begins again....
Big Dave (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 12:53
No relegation in the S15 and New Zealand seem very good at winning World Cups.

 
Re: And it begins again....
Portisteve (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 13:01
Quote:
Big Dave
No relegation in the S15 and New Zealand seem very good at winning World Cups.

Massive difference in the way that the rugby culture is from young age there

 
Re: And it begins again....
JamboBris (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 15:46
Most interested that were only at 5m so far. Leaves a lot of cap space!

 
Re: And it begins again....
Garym (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 15:51
Quote:
JamboBris
Most interested that were only at 5m so far. Leaves a lot of cap space!

Thats this years bill, not what has been promised for next year's recruits already

 
Re: And it begins again....
Olly (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 16:31
Maybe be Iím stuck in the mud or just an old romantic but Iím still against any form of ring fencing. Players clubs and fans need something to aim for, something to dream about, every player, club and fan wants to see their club at the very top of the tree. In reality thatís clearly not achievable for many but dream they do and rightly so. Likewise you must also have the fear of failure to drive forward the teams at the bottom of the tree. It is a sport you need to have something to play for or we lose the very purpose of the game. Put in a playoff between the top of the championship and bottom of the premiership and maybe I might feel happier about it. From a purely financial point of view why would any potential sugar daddy invest in a club with no hope of promotion?
Grass root Rugby is the lifeblood of the whole sport we must look after it.



My glass is again full now bring on the rugby.

 
Re: And it begins again....
Platwell House (IP Logged)
28 November, 2017 16:57
Instead of ring fencing maybe the RFU need to fund the championship better, in the long run the the national team will suffer

Goto Page: 1234Next
Current Page: 1 of 4

Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment. We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals. We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards. If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing abuse@sportnetwork.net
 
 

Who is online?

Total users online:  

Most users online:  

Users on this site:  

Where are they?