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Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's D (IP Logged)
11 November, 2011 10:29
...of course its not equitable scb, CS and BK have been carrying the can for us both, we are indebted. Neither of us can pay our way.smiling smiley

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Mozzer (IP Logged)
11 November, 2011 10:36
H's Dad - Yellow Board would be the place to direct you if only there weren't so many different and long threads on various relevant issues.

I will try to precis it but if scb feels I am misrepresenting things or wishes to amend it then I'm happy for that to be added to the mix - this is not straightforward and emotions are starting to run a little high:

As has been mentioned previously it is now common knowledge amongst County fans that there is a developer involved (Conduit) who is interested in a significant redevelopment of more than one parcel of land, which would include the building of a new ground. It is these people to whom I have been referring when I have been talking about the Londoners. It's not inside info, because YB has been onto them for weeks, if not months now. My feeling is that they want you involved in that new ground and they could buy you to help make that happen. They might not necessarily need you (I don't know) but that's the possibility.

From our perspective this has a dual impact - potential new owners and a potential new ground. No-one has really discussed the former (probably because we'd be glad to be rid of the oafs running us now and because even those who didn't think it previously are now thinking we've dodged a bullet with the Tony Evans consortium), though it remains an important issue.

With regards to the latter we are seeing a serious issue arising with regards to how we're going to play that as fans. That doesn't really need to concern you as far as this goes, but it's to that which I was mainly referring when I talked about having business of our own to attend to.

From your perspective and where I was coming from in my comments, clearly potential new owners and a new ground have an impact on you and hence we see the sort of thing we are doing in the MEN. It's not a new tactic but it's a step up from what we've seen before. In the scheme of things I am currently ambivalent about what you choose to do - there are pros and cons in either regard and without being able to see into the future it's impossible to know what would be for the best as far as we're concerned anyway. And we have that bigger battle to fight amongst our own, which troubles me much more.



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
scb (IP Logged)
11 November, 2011 10:37
And that, I guess, is as close as we shall ever get to an acknowledment of the true nature of the relationship - but i never expected anything morewinking smiley

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
scb (IP Logged)
11 November, 2011 11:17
Mozzer this is either a huge potential development or it is quite the opposite, Conduit have been 'around' for some time and yet nothing appears to be materialising

The lead times involved in delivering a new stadium suggest to me that Sale will go to Barton, which leaves EP
I hope we don't go to a new stadium in Stockport because it won't be a £150m development as suggested but more akin to the thing at Bartonsad smiley

The real concern is that BK has left SCFC as a club so utterly deflated and all but beaten, with nothing of value left that he has not already taken and utilised to subsidise Sale that we will take anything that rids us of him and Sale and that may cost us the chance to once again own EP

A new stadium wouldn't even gurantee a future without Sale and whilst your continual belief that a relationship could work is hugely to your credit, to lesser men, such as i and I am afraid to say at the least 90% of our supporters, it is an absolute no go
Add to that talk of BK becoming involved in Conduit(???) then what chance have we? the cards are being stacked before they have even been dealt!

SMBC are manfully trying to gain SCFC a stakeholding whilst Conduit and BK couldn't care less, I don't fancy our chances of an equitable relationship at any time in the future, it is the nature of tha beast that is Sale sharks

But yeah, I think you have got it about rightsmiling smiley

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Mozzer (IP Logged)
11 November, 2011 11:24
That 150M has to be a wider development. Brighton's ground cost less than that. We'll be getting nothing like the Amex. (Think B&Q warehouse without the joie de vivre.)

You may be right on the lead-in times. It's a question we should be posing as regards our future - what's going to happen in the meantime? Because even if there's the will and the finance this thing is going to be a long-time coming in sporting and financial terms.



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's D (IP Logged)
11 November, 2011 12:52
A £149M shopping and housing development and £1M for a footie pitch, two or three demountable open-air prefab stands for a thousand or so, a portakabin and half a dozen portaloos?
Does the council owe anything more to a club that's only two or three years old in such hard times?
You have good reason to be suspicious gentlemen!

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Mozzer (IP Logged)
11 November, 2011 13:05
I am suspicious of the motives of everyone involved. We have owners who only own us because they want to make money and who have repeatedly acted in ways which have made the club worse (at times in ways which beggar belief). We have prospective owners/developers who have no connection to the club or the town and who are clearly motivated by profit and not by any desire to help the town's football club. We have ground owners who are clearly playing games for their own ends. And then we have the other party, which I shall let others comment on for reasons of self-preservation... winking smiley sad smiley



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's D (IP Logged)
11 November, 2011 13:24
You just need a new sugar daddy Mozzer (due to a combination of factors the last one was fubar and left.)
Being a 'kept plaything' ain't so bad if your current fate is the alternative!

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Mozzer (IP Logged)
11 November, 2011 14:09
All depends what the sugar daddy wants in return. And they always leave you in the end anyway.



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's D (IP Logged)
11 November, 2011 15:07
...but you can both still have a good time in the meantime Mozzer!
You could always get Lord Percy and Vicar in tutu, to try and translate ......
If one removes all of their vitriolic hyperbole and rhetoric it just sounds like standard business practice in the real world to me. Owners want to ensure that they profit from it as much as possible in one way or another!

Kudos being a more acceptable currency than Sterling amongst sensible supporters. It costs little to give but has great value to some.
Finding one who wants only Kudos and you're part way there. But getting Hatters fans to consistently give Kudos in good times and bad might well be the impossible dream ..

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Mozzer (IP Logged)
11 November, 2011 15:30
You've lost me a bit. But I see no reason to add 'Hatters' there. I've seen this place when it's going badly. It's no more edifying than YB. Perhaps there's less industrial language, but other than that the whining, sniping and general narkiness comes out (not always without just cause, I should add).

We're all human beings at the end of the day. When BK goes we'll see how beatifically the issue of ownership is dealt with on here.



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's D (IP Logged)
11 November, 2011 15:54
It certainly won't be pretty if the Russians takeover Mozzer!
Yellow-boarders might have been better word than Hatters Mozzer, no offence intended. Although i tend to think football clubs tend to think they are owed an existence slightly more than rugby clubs (being more tribal). The rest we might well agree on.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Mozzer (IP Logged)
11 November, 2011 16:06
I think Hatters was fine. Whilst the YB is not a perfect cross-section of our support, in terms of kudos-giving and (perceived) fickleness I know full well that the majority around me, who don't read or contribute to YB, can give and remove their goodwill towards owners as they see fit (currently we are very much in the latter scenario!). I just don't have a problem with that, within certain paramaters. Fans are entitled to think their club's owners aren't all that. It is those owners who have a duty of care to the fans through the club.

Clubs may not be owed an existence, however (with the one usual exception) I think fans are owed their club's existence. Which may amount to the same thing, but it's an importantly different way of getting there!

You are right though, in that I probably think that because of how I think about football and most specifically about my team. I do think the same thing with regards to yourselves as well though, if it helps smiling smiley



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Toothless Shark (IP Logged)
21 November, 2011 19:15
I just thought I would bring this back from the depths. I had another look today whilst passing.

You see the centre bit behind the red seats on the main stand in the first photograph. That's terracing!

Where are all the suits going to sit?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 21/11/2011 19:16 by Toothless Shark.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
scb (IP Logged)
21 November, 2011 22:05
Which depths would that be then Toothless Shark? - unpalatable truths? the ineveitable reality that as an organisation you aren't that nicesmiling smiley

You are going to love Barton, the souless flatpack stadium, a stadium you won't call the shots in - you may even get a little club shop around the corner,who knows? you might even be allowed to use the boardroom occassionaly - yes I love it, i make no apology for loving it so, it has been a long time in the making

Smells good around those parts toosmiling smiley

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
21 November, 2011 22:24
scb, it looks as if he, TS, has dragged you back from the depths too, so it hasn't been one of his better trawls. smiling smiley

I'm pleased Jim Gannon is back, though his record since leaving County hasn't exactly been a success. There is also some truth in the premise that managers don't do as well at a club on the second (or sometimes even third) time round as they did in the original spell. Maybe he will be the exception.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's D (IP Logged)
21 November, 2011 22:26
Soulless has two l's scb!
Your post made me smile!(Sm14)
You'll be saying all our clubs admin. will be banished to the wilds of the Carrington Moss next! (Sm8)

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
21 November, 2011 22:31
H's D - I'm surprised you didn't pick up on occassionaly as well. Sometimes it is just a typo. I bet even you occasionally make one (me too, of course - oh, and iBozz....and......)

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Toothless Shark (IP Logged)
21 November, 2011 23:16
I dragged it back from the depths of page two of the forum index.

I was quite suprised that there is standing room on the half way line. I was expecting that to be restricted to the ends.

As for what the place looks like, it's not important to me. I'm not turning up to admire the architecture. I am worried about the transport options though. I travel across Barton Bridge twice a day and the clockwise carriageway is always gridlocked at six o'clock. Luckily I'm going in the opposite direction.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
scb (IP Logged)
21 November, 2011 23:21
No it is far too much of the fruit of the loom, you should plumb the depths yourself Dave A, you would feel right at home here, amongst so many of your own

H's D - I have no chance with you, you have me all worked outwinking smiley - but that doesn't mean i must be sensible just yet

Think of this boards sponsors and those hits

Oh and I always get occasionally wrong!

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
iBozz (IP Logged)
21 November, 2011 23:30
Quote:
H's D
You'll be saying all our clubs admin. will be banished to the wilds of the Carrington Moss next! (Sm8)

Not all, surely, H's D?



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

In loving memory of Her Ladyship - d: 29/12/2007.

You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. RiP

http://smileygenerator.us/smileytags/links/smiley_tag.0103287001410624489.gif

Please help medical research by Folding@Home and join Swanny's Irregulars - PM me for details. Please!


South Stand with The New Birtles Faithful.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
22 November, 2011 00:30
scb, amongst so many of my own? I presume you mean in my capacity as a football supporter.

I doubt even then I shall get deep enough to reach you in your position right down at the bottom of the Mariana Trench.

...and no you don't always get occasionally wrong - you just got it right. smiling smiley

edited for typo.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 22/11/2011 00:51 by DaveAitch.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
brilin (IP Logged)
26 November, 2011 09:23
No point in moving to Barton. After last nights performance we would struggle to fill Heywood Road.Perhaps we should move back to there!



The other 'arf

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
WiganSaler (IP Logged)
27 November, 2011 20:44
Daughter works in the HR dept at Salford and met some of the Salford Reds management at a function recently. Apparently one or two were not to pleased about the blue seats and said so. One of here colleagues had an occasion to email them and addressed it to Salford Sharks! The recipient was a bit nonplussed but the her workmates were quite amused!



--------------------------------------------------
Wigan "Home for the Bewildered"

Fully paid up member of the LSSSSC.
"Long Suffering Sale Sharks Supporters Club"

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's D (IP Logged)
04 December, 2011 22:13
Its' worthwhile keeping an eye on Scarlet Turkey.
In this case page 197 of the new stadium thread third post:
Quote:
red devils supporter on November 17th .
I went to a Neighbourhood Meeting tonight in Cadishead, two guys from the new stadium did a presentation .
Main points that are probably relevent to here are. .
Slotted between the Leigh & Wigan games is to be a cross code game with Sale. (Sm19)
!st Super League game to be 3rd Feb
Traffic concerns raised ,
Stadium company negotiating with Makro , Barton Airport and other local sites for overflow parking.
Community was dropped to make the name of the ground sound more snappy. (Sm26)
Parking exclusions for match traffic being looked at.
Shuttle bus from to and from the Trafford Centre being looked at
Prices for function rooms , pitches etc to be announced soon
No concerns from residents apart from traffic issues.
The guy giving the presentation would`nt budge on Sale ground sharing , saying there were 14 league games at the stadium at the moment.

Make of that what you will ladies and gents x2!

Re my bold paragraph.
If it turns out to be true and goes ahead it's somewhat surprising Dimes didn't mention it.
Quite a good idea mind: I would certainly be tempted to attend if only to assess it all for myself.
But they're not giving anyone much notice, so it's probably all linked to the current "negotiations continuing furiously behind the scenes".
(click the film clip tour)

I also discovered that the Airport Lounge Bar at Barton aerodrome has been refurbished and is looking forward to the extra custom.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2011 22:34 by H's D.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
scrum30 (IP Logged)
04 December, 2011 22:30
minus 1(Sm10)

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
SB14 (IP Logged)
04 December, 2011 22:33
minus 2.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's D (IP Logged)
04 December, 2011 22:37
I was actually reassured to hear that it appears that it will be the Stadium Company that will be sorting the Travel Plan, overflow parking etc!
Dimes doesn't even appear to know a decision has been made (albeit subject to contract!) (Sm6)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/12/2011 22:42 by H's D.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Oldham Shark II (IP Logged)
04 December, 2011 23:15
Oh my God, not another cross code game. Did anyone go to the game at St Helens some time ago? Twas memorable for two reasons,

1. How totally pointless the game was. A farce. Ridiculous.
2. The level of abuse I received from any League fan over the age of 80.

Word of advice to anyone thinking of going. Don't.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
MikeGC (IP Logged)
04 December, 2011 23:33
so Salford play Leigh on the 8th January and then play Wigan on the 24th January both friendly fixtures.
That leaves the weekend of the 13th 14th 15th when "the lads" are in Spain and the weekend of the 20th 21st 22nd when we play Brive at EP.
Two chances of a cross code fixture - Slim- and No-

all IMHuO of course

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Olyy (IP Logged)
04 December, 2011 23:48
Unless it'd be the Jets (but called Sharks, rather than Jets) playing - I wouldn't expect our 1st XV to play even if there was room in the calender

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
SB14 (IP Logged)
05 December, 2011 07:51
Oldham Shark II - I went to the cross code game at St Helens with my son and we also got some abuse which stopped when we won both halves = both codes of rugby! The same people then told us that Sale had played really well and they had enjoyed the evening. My son and I gloated all the way home.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's D (IP Logged)
05 December, 2011 08:29
I just thought "slim" MikeGC.

It would of course be a development game.
The Jets don't exactly have many fixtures in their schedule do they?
The only real reason for it would be a way of getting people on board with the idea of a move. A way of giving everyone the possibility of attending a taster.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
iBozz (IP Logged)
05 December, 2011 09:03
Oldham Shark II and SB14: I went to the game (and have the video) and stood next to a devout league supporter - I explained what was happening when we played to union laws (he's probably been utterly confused and seriously misinformed ever since!) and he reciprocated when we played to theirs.

I think a draw would have been fairer as each side won their own "game" comfortably. if I recall, it finished 44 - 42 to Sale "1861" Sharks and could have drawn when they missed a final kick at goal in a strong wind and rain. But then, at my advanced age memory plays tricks so don't take that as Gospel.

I found their crowd, at least where I stood, somewhat bemused at our game (as I was at theirs) but very friendly and helpful.

It just shows that it takes all sorts.



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

In loving memory of Her Ladyship - d: 29/12/2007.

You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. RiP

http://smileygenerator.us/smileytags/links/smiley_tag.0103287001410624489.gif

Please help medical research by Folding@Home and join Swanny's Irregulars - PM me for details. Please!


South Stand with The New Birtles Faithful.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
SB14 (IP Logged)
05 December, 2011 19:51
Ibozz - I stand corrected - we didn't win both halves but did win 41-39. It was a good night out even though we didn't get home until very late indeed.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Gozo Shark (IP Logged)
05 December, 2011 21:24
I did mention the cross code match a few weeks back somewhere on here.

Having been converted to League during the summer, it has been interesting following their thoughts on their move to Barton (Transport, food, drink, transport etc) and also the emergence of Sale as a possible tenent.

The colour of seats has certainly raised a few suspicians regarding when/if a deal has already been done for SS to move in in August 2012.

GS

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
05 December, 2011 21:37
Just to put the St Helens v Sale game to bed both sides won "their" half to 0. Sale were saved by the RL side pleading with the RL ref not to bin a Sale player for repeated offside in the RL half.

The RL side couldn't stop a maul and we couldn't manage the 10m backwards from the play-the-ball then up again.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Sharkys two (IP Logged)
14 December, 2011 17:21
sale sharks FB page



Aha, explains a lot.....or does it?
Perhaps we're being deliberately hoodwinked? Fed a red herring as it were??
Don't like to see a good conspiracy theory spoiled by a reasonable explanation so thought I'd stir it up a bit!

(Sm100)

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's D (IP Logged)
14 December, 2011 19:37

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
wineshark (IP Logged)
14 December, 2011 20:05
I found the video most informative (Sm22)

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
14 December, 2011 22:10
Well I'm thoroughly depressed by all this.
It's obvious now to me that Sale will go to Barton.
Very significant that there's no word from Sale Sharks on the matter!
I have no problem with the Stadium.
I have a huge problem with lack of access and facilities.
I won't be going and that will be the end of 25/30 yrs of continuous support of Sale!

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
scrum30 (IP Logged)
14 December, 2011 22:42
rugbydon! whilst praying that the move to barton doesnt happen i couldnt agree more to the fact that it will also see my ending of supporting a rugby team with a sale name!!!

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
15 December, 2011 05:34
As our resident pedants appear to have missed it, you would have thought a piece of journalism would be proof read.


the Bernabau = The Bernabeu (Estadio Santiago Bernabeu if you want to be really picky)
the Nou Camp will let this ride as common usage, but should be Camp Nou
the Mestalla
the Amsterdam Arena
the Parc du Prince = Parc des Princes



http://www.sportnetwork.net/mainadmin/img/2451156279081.gif
We are the angry mob. We read the papers every day. We like who we like, we hate who we hate, but we're also easily swayed.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
15 December, 2011 07:54
Poynters, I hadn't read the article before but I did note in the Telegraph last week "there" when it should have been "their". I'm afraid journalists (though certainly not all) are not what they used to be. When the BBC and the Telegraph start getting it wrong the writting is on the wall. One you haven't pointed out is "stadiums". To be strictly correct the plural of stadium, as anyone who did Latin at school will know, is "stadia".

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
15 December, 2011 09:23
Actually Scrum30, I will be supporting Sale;
Sale FC at Heywood Road.
This where I came in!

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Mozzer (IP Logged)
15 December, 2011 10:38
Blimey. That's looks really dull. But then they usually do. The author should have told me if he'd been to Glanford Park or the Bescott Stadium. Then I'd know whether he was au fait with the topic area. Saying you are familiar with Parc des Princes (thank you, PoyntonShark) and extolling the virtues or otherwise of the Barton Dullerdrome is a bit like telling me you only ever eat in Michelin starred restaurants and then telling me whether my local chippy does decent mushy peas. (Only a bit like that, mind, cos I like mushy peas but I hate boring new grounds.)

DaveAitch - the subs at papers have been losing their jobs for a while now and the rush to get stuff up on the web doesn't help with quality control either. Private Eye has been highlighting where the cuts have been and the subsequent errors that have ensued. I think The Torygraph has featured in the last issue or two. Fortunately I usually read The Guardian and therefore there is little noticeable difference.



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
15 December, 2011 10:52
Well I will be going if we move to Barton or if we stay in Stockport and I will be coming from Devon so from a purely selfish point I hope we move to Saturdays.

Just sayin !

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
ageinghoody (IP Logged)
15 December, 2011 17:34
Purely from my own selfish point of view(living in Romiley and being otherwise committed most Saturdays), I also hope it doesn't happen.

It will clearly mean the non-renewal of my Season Ticket, but it won't be the end of my support.

I'll get there on the odd occasion when I can, just as I did at HR.

I accept that others will see it differently and the club will have to weigh-up the pros and cons. I also accept that the club will keep its negotiating cards very close to its chest while the situation remains unresolved.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's D (IP Logged)
15 December, 2011 18:47
More pictures to make Mozzer smile!
I wonder if they got the two tone blue seats cheap?

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
HaleShark (IP Logged)
15 December, 2011 19:05
Great pics H’s D.

I always think it’s a hollow threat when people say ‘they’ll never go’ Is it not a case of cutting one’s nose off to spite one’s face? If the improvements on the pitch continue and we start playing in the H.C. etc. will those people stay away, or will they go back on their word and sneak in?

I’m throwing the cat amongst the pigeons here and would suggest if you’re not prepared to go to Barton and continue to support your team, then were you ever a loyal supporter in the first place……………?

I’ll stand well back!

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Olyy (IP Logged)
15 December, 2011 19:23
Stadium looks great, in my opinon

Makes no real difference to me whether we stay at EP, or move to Barton. It's a similar amount (massive) amount of driving to either.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
15 December, 2011 19:38
Haleshark,

You've not been paying attention, poor show, take 500 lines!
It's not a question of ceasing to support Sale or 'deciding' not to go ........................................
I CAN'T GO ......................................
There's no way of my getting there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've actually done quite a bit of research on the alternatives. I'm not going to bore everyone by repeating facts that have been posted ad nauseum on these columns but if you don't have a car you're @#$%&!

At the risk of being very boring I would also gently point out that even if you go by car you're probably @#$%& as well; if you're lucky enough to get over Barton bridge and fight your way through the queue, you probably won't be able to park!

(Sm122)

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
SB14 (IP Logged)
15 December, 2011 19:43
Thanks Rugbydon - saved me the job of sorting Haleshark out. Been mentioned umpteen times on here that it isn't a question of being loyal to Sale it is the practicalities of it all be you a car driver or not. I even tried the alternative route (which I think was suggested by H'sD) and gave up because of the roadworks, so I am not going to Barton. Never, Ever, Never. (I am now stamping my feet and having a hissy fit).

(Though if there is room for me on the team coach.....)

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
HaleShark (IP Logged)
15 December, 2011 20:00
Fair enough Rugbydon and I’m genuinely sorry to hear that there is no way you can get to the games if we go to Barton. Perhaps if the Barton thing goes ahead then arranging car-sharing or offering lifts to non-drivers via this board might be an option.

Well you carry on SB14 and have your hissy fit! But I reckon you’ll be at Barton if we make the move. It was a general observation to those who blow a load of hot air, and then end up going after all.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Olyy (IP Logged)
15 December, 2011 20:07
Perhaps, if the move did hapen, the SSSC may look into the viability of a fun bus from EP to Barton and back, ala the away games? If there was enough interest in it, of course.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 15/12/2011 20:07 by Olyy.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
HaleShark (IP Logged)
15 December, 2011 20:34
Good idea Olyy, but the club itself should look to offer this servive in the first instance, all be it at a cost to the supporter.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Gandalfzz (IP Logged)
15 December, 2011 21:25
A fun bus? Surely you mean n buses where n could be a largish number. Think of the logistics involved in that!
Did any of you go to HQ by bus?
That was early on a Saturday and 20ish buses could park easily near EP
Try that scenario out on a Fri night.
Buses would have to leave EP by 18.30 at the latest, possiblly 18.00.
To get from home to EP say 30mins and the same on the way back home.

so leave home at 17.30, back about 23.00 plus, possibly 24.00.

Who would do that for 1 game let alone a season?

A keen supporter or a ..........(fill in appropriate definition)



I am anyones equal, but no ones superior

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
SB14 (IP Logged)
15 December, 2011 21:30
Haleshark - I can assure you I will not be going to Barton. I am hoping to move to the East Yorkshire coast next year and would have continued to go to Edgeley Park by train from Hull via Mcr Picc and then Stockport, staying overnight if necessary. Barton? NOT A CHANCE. And I do not blow hot air. Friends of mine know that once I make my mind up, it stays made up.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Shark in Exile (IP Logged)
15 December, 2011 21:46
Quote:
Olyy
Stadium looks great, in my opinon
Makes no real difference to me whether we stay at EP, or move to Barton. It's a similar amount (massive) amount of driving to either.

Agree the stadium looks good and also makes no difference to me as well as it will be similar journey to Barton as Ep from Surrey to watch home games.



Shark in Exile

A SALE Sharks supporter
The North West's Team
1861

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Olyy (IP Logged)
15 December, 2011 22:00
Quote:
Gandalfzz
[...]
Was merely an idea, didn't really think in to the logistics of it

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
MikeGC (IP Logged)
15 December, 2011 22:57
I'm astonished that people think that games will remain regular Friday night fixtures.
Even the most short sighted Club Official would know that the M60 in that area is a 'no go' zone on a Friday (IIRC Swanny passes that way on his way home).

We could move to Saturday kick offs but IMHuO highly unlikely as our avowed reason for Friday is to avoid clashes with City or United home games.

Therefore, IMHuO, games will move to Sunday afternoons.
I suspect that'll make the public transport scenario even less favourable but may ease car drivers' fears (not that there'll be parking spaces but...).

Still prepared to be surprised if this move goes ahead.
FWIW the proposed facilities at Sports City look like being much better.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
15 December, 2011 23:30
Mike, the trouble with round ball football is that games can be switched even up to a couple of weeks before the game takes place, as I'm sure you know. What has spent eight months billed as a 3pm Saturday game, can become Friday, earlier or later on the Saturday or on Sunday. Occasionally a game will move to a Thursday or a Monday. It won't be easy to avoid Premiership football games.

I'm not sure how many games of United or City do in fact take place at 3:00 pm Saturday, but a couple of seasons ago Liverpool had, I think, just three games at that time, whereas (including cup games) there were around twenty at other times: several were on Sunday.

Olyy and Exile, while the distance to Barton might be similar the problem is that hast mile or so. I can do the fifty miles to EP in under an hour.Parking quite close means I can walk to the ground in a few minutes: total time one hour. If I have to park some distance away and then get a bus, fun or not, then it becomes more like a two hour total journey time. That might not seem too bad for you more distant dwellers but for me it will take a good deal of the pleasure out of the day (or night).

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Mozzer (IP Logged)
16 December, 2011 09:33
That appears to be a link to Facebook, H's Dad, but I can't access it. Not to worry. I have a very strong suspicion that whatever it is I'm not seeing is less inspiring than these words on this background.

DaveAitch - they will both have lots more Sunday kick-offs if they end up playing their European matches on a Thursday night again. Ho ho ho, etc.



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
16 December, 2011 12:08
A Supporter's bus service is the only solution I can come up with.
The service would need to run from somewhere convenient to where most people are coming from/can get to. Don't forget most won't have cars. Here are some options:
Eccles Tram stop. (A short trip and useful for Supporters from north Manchester)
Stretford Tram stop (A Trafford Centre bus service already runs from here; they've done their research).
Altrincham Interchange. (Train, tram and bus stops)


A bus from the Trafford Centre isn't much use since TC is difficult to get to without a car and you would need to negotiate J10 or 9 on the M60 twice going and twice returning, not a great idea. (There is already a bus to Irlam roundabout from TC).

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Mozzer (IP Logged)
16 December, 2011 15:03
Rather than start a new thread (particularly as I may have missed this being posted elsewhere anyway) the MEN has an article on goings on at Barton: here



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
recycledyorkie2 (IP Logged)
16 December, 2011 16:02
So, if I read this correctly we are going into partnership with Salford Council - I can think of better things to do.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
HaleShark (IP Logged)
16 December, 2011 18:50
I admire your dedication SB14 to travel from East Yorkshire to watch a game of rugby on a regular basis.

But given you are prepared to travel all that way to Edgeley Park then a deviation to Barton is hardly a complete inconvenience rendering the journey too difficult and completely out of the question. Granted it is your choice but it does appear like you are cutting your nose off to spite your face. Shame really, but as they say ‘nowt queer as folk’ eh!

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Tigger (IP Logged)
16 December, 2011 19:09
Quote:
Gandalfzz
A fun bus? Surely you mean n buses where n could be a largish number. Think of the logistics involved in that!
Did any of you go to HQ by bus?
That was early on a Saturday and 20ish buses could park easily near EP
Try that scenario out on a Fri night.
Buses would have to leave EP by 18.30 at the latest, possiblly 18.00.
To get from home to EP say 30mins and the same on the way back home.

so leave home at 17.30, back about 23.00 plus, possibly 24.00.

Who would do that for 1 game let alone a season?

A keen supporter or a ..........(fill in appropriate definition)


Sounds like my journey to EP....get the 4:45 train to Stockport and get back home around midnight....so that makes me ..........(fill in appropriate definition)



http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a83/DEmmerich/gws21.jpg

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in one pretty and preserved piece BUT to slide across the line broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out, leaking oil, shouting

GERONIMO!!!

RIP Marco Simoncelli 20/01/87 - 23/10/2011

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
SB14 (IP Logged)
16 December, 2011 20:32
Haleshark - The distance to Barton is not the problem. It is how you get there - or rather how you don't - no decent public transport, very little parking, and don't forget the gridlock that is the M60. It has been discussed on here many, many times already. Getting boring now.

You want to go to Barton? Fine, you go. Those of us who can't (note I say can't not won't) then we won't be able to. It is nothing to do with cutting off my nose to spite my face. I just can't do it.

Journey to EP - Hull to Mcr through train takes just under two hours. Then ten minutes to Stockport. And Visa Versa. Where I intend to move to is 20 minutes from Hull station by car. Simple. And if I fancied it in decent weather I would travel the whole distance by car in around the same amount of time - I know because I have done it. I usually try things out before saying I can't do it. I am not a quitter.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
HaleShark (IP Logged)
16 December, 2011 22:13
There you go SB14, you must have had another hissy fit! I’ve just put your dolly back in the pram as it appears you must have thrown it out!

I still admire your dedication to travel by train but if I were you I’d can the idea, too many connections to make and given the performance of cross-country trains in the U.K. you’d just about make the last 10 minutes of each match. If I were you I’d hand-pick the matches and drive in the better weather. Mind you, if we switch to summer rugby you’d be better off.

Now stop getting in a fizz, or people will think the S.B. in your board-name stands for silly b****r!

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's D (IP Logged)
16 December, 2011 23:06
Local access to Barton may be improved if and when they build the proposed footbridge over the canal but until details of the required Travel Plan are published we remain mushrooms (just like the RL fans).
It must be imminent because they can't hold any games there until they are approved by Trafford Council.
The said bridge might then mean it is only be a mile or so to walk from the Trafford Centre.
In the meantime here are the latest photos and a link to scarleturkey discussions and another access point to facebook pictures

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
16 December, 2011 23:43
It's either very good or absolutely awful - or more likely a bit a both.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Gandalfzz (IP Logged)
17 December, 2011 09:23
DA you are obviously very forthright in your opinions and don't ever believe in sitting on the fence.



I am anyones equal, but no ones superior



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17/12/2011 09:24 by Gandalfzz.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
iBozz (IP Logged)
17 December, 2011 11:27
Old Caldy proverb: DA who sit on fence get splinters where the sun don't shine!



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

In loving memory of Her Ladyship - d: 29/12/2007.

You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. RiP

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Please help medical research by Folding@Home and join Swanny's Irregulars - PM me for details. Please!


South Stand with The New Birtles Faithful.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
18 December, 2011 02:25
The fence at Caldy is not to be sat on:

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/3892/fencepadlock.jpg

It's much better to jump in head first:

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3985/headfirst02.jpg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18/12/2011 02:26 by DaveAitch.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
iBozz (IP Logged)
18 December, 2011 09:10
Quote:
The fence at Caldy is not to be sat on:

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/3892/fencepadlock.jpg

I understand that there are certain clubs where people will pay good money to sit on a fence like that! (Sm124)



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

In loving memory of Her Ladyship - d: 29/12/2007.

You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. RiP

http://smileygenerator.us/smileytags/links/smiley_tag.0103287001410624489.gif

Please help medical research by Folding@Home and join Swanny's Irregulars - PM me for details. Please!


South Stand with The New Birtles Faithful.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
scb (IP Logged)
18 December, 2011 12:18
I would rather see Sale win than lose Mozzer, when they go to Barton then I will wish them every success, I admit to watching a bit of it and of course for me the 6 Nations is the highlight of sporting year

Agree re the stadium - it really is a shocker, bland, boring and characterless, very uninspiring, fortunately we won't be getting one of thosesmiling smiley

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
19 December, 2011 11:57
Edgeley lad Smithy seems to prefer Barton

[menmedia.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 19/12/2011 11:59 by Mrs Trellis of North Wales.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
recycledyorkie2 (IP Logged)
19 December, 2011 13:49
"A new venue would guarantee big crowds".

Why? Winning rugby might, entertaining rugby might, a combination of the 2 might. Until the onfield product improves significantly what's the point of moving & alienating the existing supporter core.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
bryanh (IP Logged)
19 December, 2011 19:21
A move to Barton makes little difference to me apart from the parking issues and whether they play on a saturday cos that woudl rule me and my family out so thats 7 less

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Toothless Shark (IP Logged)
19 December, 2011 20:25
Quote:
recycledyorkie2
"A new venue would guarantee big crowds".
Why? Winning rugby might, entertaining rugby might, a combination of the 2 might. Until the onfield product improves significantly what's the point of moving & alienating the existing supporter core.

Sometimes you have to break it to fix it. Before I started watching Sale I used to watch Ice Hockey. Highlight of the season was always the trip to Nottingham. The Nottingham venue was built in 1939 with none of today's luxuries. It was probably the equivalent of Heywood Road. The capacity was limited to 2900 and when the building was full it used to rock. It was so atmospheric and intimidating to away teams and supporters alike. I loved it even though I was an away supporter.

It was replaced with a state of the art ice venue with no atmosphere but a much improved capacity of around 7000. Despite the lack of history and atmosphere the crowds have grown to fill it. Admittedly it is still in the same location but they have still managed to grow their support. Perhaps that is what is needed for Sale. I feel comfortable in Edgley Park but I'm not paying the bills. Perhaps the crowds would increase if the facility was shiney and new. You lose some but gain more. We shall see.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
20 December, 2011 07:52
Toothless, that is something of a fallacious comparison. Nottingham Ice Hockey went from a stadium that was pretty much a sell-out capacity at 3,000 so going to a bigger stadium would result in higher attendances, especially as they are near the top of the league. Tranmere, near the top of the league in the early 1960s, used to get 10,000+ average. Now mid-table and playing pretty awful football the gate is less than 5,000 in a 'better' 17,000 capacity stadium. If the sport is good the crowds will come, if not they won't. Moving to a larger stadium and playing poor quality whatever just means the same numbers rattle round in a bigger stadium. Make that stadium less convenient and even less will go.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Mozzer (IP Logged)
20 December, 2011 09:36
Steady Dave - you're arguing with received wisdom there. Always dangerous.

Christ, as if more than 2000 people are going to come and watch us defend ineptly, attack limply (if at all) and lose to utter dross just because we've got a shiny new stadium in a worse location than EP. They absolutely will not. And no-one can tell me we're not going to get royally shafted on the deal anyway.



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's D (IP Logged)
02 January, 2012 16:32
The long awaited Green Travel Plan referred to above, as required by the planning consent!

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Whaley Shark (IP Logged)
02 January, 2012 16:51
Quote:
H's D
The long awaited Green Travel Plan referred to above, as required by the planning consent!

Let's take our Falcons crowd- 9000 ish

600 car parking places at the stadium. Assume 4 people/car = 2400 people. Assume other parking doesn't add much.

Trains, trams, buses- guess at another 2000

Park and ride from the Trafford Centre- 4600 people. 50 people per bus- 92 busloads in 2.5 hours = about 1 bus every 90 seconds. Totally inconsistent with the 'every 20 minutes' in the document.

Looks a pretty iffy plan to me.....

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
iBozz (IP Logged)
02 January, 2012 18:24
I just love maps which have no scale attached.

And is it my congenital and legendary myopia, or does Salford City Stadium not actually appear on the map - which, of course, would make a scale utterly useless!



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

In loving memory of Her Ladyship - d: 29/12/2007.

You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. RiP

http://smileygenerator.us/smileytags/links/smiley_tag.0103287001410624489.gif

Please help medical research by Folding@Home and join Swanny's Irregulars - PM me for details. Please!


South Stand with The New Birtles Faithful.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
MikeGC (IP Logged)
02 January, 2012 18:37
correct iBozz, I think the stadium is somewhere towards the bottom of the page

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
02 January, 2012 18:40
The old proofreader hasn't been at work either: Buses will run 2 hours 30 minutes before kick off - departing every 20 minutes up untill 30 minutes before kick off.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Frodo Shark (IP Logged)
03 January, 2012 18:58
It is clearly a "green plan". Not only does it not show the ground, it doesn't show the address or postcode for car drivers.(Although I acknowledge that this is shown on the website)

Clearly the 600 parking spaces (plus £5 charge) do not look great either. I would consider the tram. I know which the nearest station is, it tells me on the "plan".

But then it doesn't say how far away it is, and the bus apparently doesn't drop anyone off there anyway, or at the train station.

So perhaps it's not so "green" at all. You have to drive to the Trafford Centre to get the bus.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Toothless Shark (IP Logged)
03 January, 2012 19:22
It's not a proper green plan. They've missed off the bike sheds.

It's interesting that they have decided to use the car park furthest away from the stadium

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's D (IP Logged)
04 January, 2012 00:11
That will be the least used by Trafford shoppers i expect.

It's more of a scarlet red (turkey) plan actually.
Ours will be similar but will miss out "Park at the Willows and walk" but may well add "Park at Makro and walk". More Blue than Green (especially if you have a heart complaint)

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
04 January, 2012 05:31
Will bus passes be accepted? The park and ride at Goodison does. The result is that almost no one using it pays anything.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
iBozz (IP Logged)
04 January, 2012 09:19
Quote:
DaveAitch
Will bus passes be accepted? The park and ride at Goodison does. The result is that almost no one using it pays anything.

Technically, bus passes (Over 60 and Disability National Concessionary Scheme) are only accepted on scheduled local bus services which are defined as stopping at least every 15 miles and upon which less than half the seats are bookable in advance.

Shuttles from the Trafford (or elsewhere) won't fit into that definition unless, of course, GMPTE/TfM "schedule" them.

Of course, any provider and/or sponsor of the service(s) can allow them to be used as a special concession.

In Worcester, season tickets are accepted for free travel to and from Sixways from the town centre - but that would require a certain degree of imagination, an ability seemingly lacking in GMPTE/TfM.



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

In loving memory of Her Ladyship - d: 29/12/2007.

You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. RiP

http://smileygenerator.us/smileytags/links/smiley_tag.0103287001410624489.gif

Please help medical research by Folding@Home and join Swanny's Irregulars - PM me for details. Please!


South Stand with The New Birtles Faithful.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2012 09:23 by iBozz.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Mozzer (IP Logged)
04 January, 2012 09:41
That's not a green travel plan. It's a flyer.

A map with no scale is not a map. At best it's a diagram.



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Frodo Shark (IP Logged)
04 January, 2012 10:09
It's a flyer to tell people how to get to the ground. Or at least it would be if it showed the ground, or even gave the address

Whilst this is clearly not the actual plan to be presented to the Council, as that will be full of technical and legal language this nevertheless appears to be the plan for supporters and spectators to use.

They have their first game in a couple of weeks or so, I think.

Is there going to be a new flyer produced saying that they have buses stopping at tram or train stations? Or that actually we have changed our mind and there are going to be buses every 5 minutes with their own lane so that they can avoid the traffic on the Trafford Centre roundabouts and roads.

Is the actual "plan" available? Does it make any sense?

Having seen this "flyer"/ plan summary, and having seen the M60 traffic for myself last Friday evening, I cannot imagine it will work. Certainly not for a team who wants to become the team of the north west.

I admit to barely knowing the area, but nothing that I have seen or read makes me think it can work.

I acknowledge that there may be some times the Trafford Centre and local roads are less busy (7am Saturday? 9pm Sunday?) but it would appear that even at slightly less busier times than Friday evening, the cars getting to the match would replace those not going to the Trafford Centre and gridlock would ensue still.

Mozzer, as a Planner (I think, apologies if wrong)does anything about it make you think that 9/10/12 thousand people could actually arrive in time for the start of a game, what ever time that might be?

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Mozzer (IP Logged)
04 January, 2012 10:22
Frodo - that's more of a highways issue than a planning one (though the former feeds into the latter when assessing a proposal). These things tend to be of a very technical nature, relating to traffic flows, junction capacities and the like. Much too complicated for a simple lad like me. I'd ask a highway engineer and go with what they said!

If I get chance I'll have a look and see if I can find the Green Travel Plan (assuming it has been submitted).

Original Permission - see condition 12

Update on progress with conditions in Feb 11

There have been a couple of applications to discharge conditions since (i.e. to get formal notification that the conditions have been complied with) but not relating to the Green Travel Plan.

This takes you to a history of planning applications at the site



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2012 10:41 by Mozzer.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's D (IP Logged)
04 January, 2012 10:51
According to the conditions a Travel Plan should have already been submitted and approved Mozzer.
They have already had a youth match there on the 27th December as part of the stadium walk event.
Anyone who paid their £25 could participate and then watch the match.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2012 13:33 by H's Dad....

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Mozzer (IP Logged)
04 January, 2012 11:13
I know. I am merely providing the information available. Not commenting on what that information tells anyone.



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
04 January, 2012 14:11
Lets get real on Barton access.

Firstly:
Car access to 600 parking spaces is only likely to deliver about 1500 spectators, not 2,400. Why? Few cars will be full!!!!

Secondly:
The only other way of getting there in numbers is by a dedicated coach/bus service!
This means around 280 coaches @ say 30 passengers each (Mmmmmm!) delivering 8,500 spectators. This would give a total of 10,000 spectators; the minimum, Sale Sharks wish to see.
It only works if they pick up at the right places:
Trafford Centre is a no-no, for reasons given, ie: you have to get there on the M60 negotiating J9 or 10, find a parking space and then re-negotiate J9 or 10 in a bus!
EP is a nonsense too as most current supporters travel quite a way to get there; it takes me 1hr by train including waits.
Buses to Barton need to pick up at convenient points on public transport nodes; eg: Altrincham Station, Manchester Piccadilly, Eccles Tram Stop, Stretford Tram Stop (current TC dedicated bus service stop), etc.

Thirdly:
Since the aforegoing isn't going to happen the best option is to implement a proper travel plan infrastructure programme. This should have happened by now. This may include:
Extend the tram to TC and across a new bridge to the Stadium!
Create a carpark and footbridge across the canal.
Extend the Eccles Tram to Barton.
Build a rail link from Patricroft to Barton.

Since that's not going to happen either, at least not soon, those responsible for this development have failed to ensure adequate access to this fine facility!

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Frodo Shark (IP Logged)
04 January, 2012 15:40
Thanks Mozzer.

I should have known the difference between the two departments as my dad spent most of his working life in one or the other. Indeed he usually complimented me on my driving. The only time I remember him getting upset with me in the car was when I drove straight across a road where he had been responsible for changing the priority giving it to the road coming from the left. I think he thought of that as being a personal insult.

Anyway back to Barton.

Rugbydon.

I suspect that you have pretty much summed it up there.



There is a much longer potential version of this note that I may have time to review and post later. In the meantime, just to say that my current opinion is that I think a move to Barton would be very bad indeed 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2012 15:46 by Frodo Shark.

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