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Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's Dad.. (IP Logged)
26 January, 2012 18:20
Option 2 is certainly a possibility Thinking Donkey: the powers that be may well have given an indication that they will be requiring 15,000 capacity stadiums in, say, 3, 5 or 7 years time.
Trying to get undertakings on the timing of planned ground enlargement at Barton could have proved time consuming if communication to and from the RFU is involved, (especially currently).

Also it also wouldn't be the first time that a canny buyer tries to get the best possible deal by using proven, demonstrable access problems in order to lower the rent.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
scrum30 (IP Logged)
26 January, 2012 21:04
rugbydon.i can only presume that you no longer(or have never played or supported local rugby??)
If you have or still do, how do you think that a sat afternoon k.o. will affect the crowds knowing that all the local clubs are playing at the same time???(Sm164)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 26/01/2012 21:07 by scrum30.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
ashtonshark (IP Logged)
26 January, 2012 21:39
So is there no local rugby played on a Saturday near Leicester, Gloucester, Northampton, Harlequins, Exeter, Bath, Worcester etc? Why should this be a a big problem when its not for the majority of other clubs?

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
26 January, 2012 22:39
Of course there is local rugby played in those places, but the big, big difference is that there isn't much in the way of football as an alternative attraction for the spectator class: nor rugby league, neither.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
MikeGC (IP Logged)
26 January, 2012 23:17
ashtonshark, Leicester, Gloucester, Northampton & Bath all have a strong tradition of watching 1st class / professional rugby on a Saturday afternoon which Sale / Orrell / West Hartlepool et al never achieved. Therefore (IMHuO), aided and abetted by Friday evening rugby, more Sale fans than those of the clubs cited above are regular players / coaches / referees and local club fans. Many made exceptions for the Reebok game, as we know but that was a one off.
I think Friday night rugby will be a thing in Sale's history IF the move to Barton occurs.
The big gamble if the club elects to move to Barton and chooses to play on Saturday will be trying to replace the Friday night players, etc with 'new blood'.
Similarly, Sunday afternoon will bring differing problems.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
P A B (IP Logged)
26 January, 2012 23:26
Out of interest I have just looked at Salfords Super league fixtures & it would seem that they are mostly playing Fri night with ko 20:00. The other thing that the 'big' RU teams dont have to worry about is a nearby footy team playing Sat afternoon & getting a crowd of 70k week in week out + another footy team pulling in 45k on Sat afternoon as well. Hence Salford playing Fri nights - like us...

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Mozzer (IP Logged)
27 January, 2012 09:21
I see your point, H's Dad, but of course they'll never get round to implementing those requirements. Not for existing top tier clubs. They didn't when the economy was booming and RU was on a high. By the time the economy gets sorted (if it ever does) our sports will (hopefully) have seen the bubble burst and clubs and the organisations running the games will just be grateful there are punters paying at the gate. Trying to force teams to build 15,000 capacity grounds for 6,000 fans will be beyond the idiocy of even RU's ruling bodies. Won't it?!

BK may find that Peel (who are at least as 'streetwise' as BK in these matters - he is not up against self-made property developers or 'well-meaning amateurs' here) are going to expect him/Sale to fork out significantly for increases in capacity if it is ever required, particularly given that it seems unlikely Salford will be needing it any time before my children retire. Which he would have to do here as well of course. Tricky one.

As regards the transport, well, who would have thought? (Oh yeah, that's right. Anyone who's ever had to go to a new out of the way ground.)



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
ashtonshark (IP Logged)
27 January, 2012 10:38
Quote:
DaveAitch
Of course there is local rugby played in those places, but the big, big difference is that there isn't much in the way of football as an alternative attraction for the spectator class: nor rugby league, neither.

Dave, Not sure I follow your logic here. Whats football got to do with whether someone goes to watch rugby on a Saturday afternoon or plays rugby on a Saturday afternoon. Either way they're not going to the football

For what its worth I would like to stay with Friday nights. But if its Staurday then I'll go on Saturday and if its at Barton then I'll go to Barton. Any time, any place, I'll still have my season ticket

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's Dad.. (IP Logged)
27 January, 2012 10:40
How do 'franchised' teams generally pay for the use of their 'home' stadium in footy Mozzer?
Is it for a set fee per season, a set fee per match, on an attendee through the gate basis, or a combination of the above?

I can see merit in making it pretty complex from both the stadium owner and club owner perspectives to cater for all eventualities. I suppose that could take a long time to negotiate. Or are there standardised terms for such contractual arrangements, what with seperate companies owning stadiums often being the norm these days?

Supporters have long since stopped being the main focus of both football and rugby club's, tv is the paymaster Mozzer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 27/01/2012 10:45 by H's Dad...

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Mozzer (IP Logged)
27 January, 2012 10:55
No idea about the details of payments, H's Dad. There's only one franchise in English football. Given how it panned out I suspect they make a payment to the ground's owners. Whoever they are. I confess to not caring about that side of things with them anymore, other than hoping that they die (which seems more unlikely with every passing year, sadly. Another triumph for money and moral vacuousness over the game).

I suspect any agreement would be complex, rather than standardised. There seem to me to be so many unknown variables that it would be nigh on impossible to standardise. Whether that is the cause of the hold-up is open to question. I liked Thinking Donkey's posting in that regard.

TV is indeed the paymaster. That's why I'm hoping the bubble bursts. Football was more enjoyable (though the game itself not technically better) before the money flooded in.



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
27 January, 2012 13:04
Scrum 30,
I conceed it's a long time since I played but I have consistently supported Sale for 30 years and many other clubs besides.
In case you hadn't noticed Friday night is still an innovation for most clubs.
Transport and visibility being two major problems!
If we move to Barton, we'll change to daytime games!

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
hmshark (IP Logged)
27 January, 2012 14:18
From what I heard from people at the club during the Spain trip the deal is definitely not yet done.
However as we are all aware it is a move instigated by the need to increase revenues and therefore compete financially with other clubs. It is believed that the corporate boxes at Barton could generate between 250-400k in revenue if sold correctly. That is money generated whether or not anybody actually turns up to watch from them. That could pay for 2/3 top level signings or a good number of squad players. EP cannot currently do that. That is something that realistically needs to be considered.
The downside to the move at the moment is the "rent" that we would have to pay, again rumours are somewhere between 750k to 1m per season. That is totally unrealistic and negates any advantage in corporate revenue.
We do however need a better ground and facilities that can generate revenue from the corporate world or from a massive increase in attendance, but for that a bigger ground is needed.
Who knows what the answer is but i am sure we will find out soon.
The club are interested in what the humble supporter thinks and know that this potential moves is creating conflict.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Mozzer (IP Logged)
27 January, 2012 14:28
The answer is some proper investment in EP. Something that goes beyond mere genuflecting at the corporate pound. If anyone gave a toss about things beyond the bottom line we'd all be a lot better off. I am not just referring to CS either.



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
hmshark (IP Logged)
27 January, 2012 14:38
Mozzer I agree that the the corporate pound is ruining most sports and am not in agreement with it but it is a fact of life in professional sport now. The individual benefactors can no longer support clubs if they want success so off field activity becomes just as important as onfield.
I was asked the direct question "what would you rather do, move or stay?" I told them we should stay and redevelop EP if it can be done but if it is not feasible then I will follow them wherever. I have been watching them since 1975 so no point in cutting my nose off to spite my face. I am a Sale fan first and foremost.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
27 January, 2012 14:48
I wonder what investigations have been carried out into renovating and extending EP! It's a dump at the moment but as an Architect, I can see that it could be hugely improved but it wouldn't be cheap.

The main problems that I see are:
Complying with Football Stadium design rules which tend to be quite restrictive.
The cost and feasibility of extending the stand(s) to accommodate 12,000 with improvements and roofs.
Top quality lights.
Feasibility of providing good Hospitality Suites.

It would still be Edgeley Park. However it may make sense to carry out stop gap improvements at EP and look longer term to a better solution at Sports City or wait until (or if) the public transport improvements are installed at Barton.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Mozzer (IP Logged)
27 January, 2012 15:02
hmshark - I also detest it but recognise its value/necessity. My posting was meant to suggest that in addition to chasing that market (or whatever the relevant phrase du jour is) other benefits could be considered.

Beware being asked as well. Over a decade ago I was asked if I would watch County play home games outside Stockport on a permanent basis. Along with a group of others we said that it defied belief that anyone was even considering it and that we'd rather watch County in Division 4 at EP (oh, the thought) than in the Premier League in Manchester. Weeks later Manstock County came to light. It got stamped on very quickly by the wider fanbase, but they clearly thought they knew better.



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's Dad.. (IP Logged)
27 January, 2012 16:56
Hmshark, you don't sit down and negotiate for 6 months unless you have decided to move if a deal can be done.
The owners of the stadium are also under financial pressure to get a second tenant with more year round use of the stadium and larger attendances than Salford Reds enjoy.
Thaty's why they are both still talking.
IMHO no matter what the majority of current supporters would wish they will agree a compromise.

One could also say that getting Sale FC to enlarge their Carrington offices at considerable expense so that SS admin. can move in (and therefore pay more rent of course!) makes little sense if S.S. are still going to play at EP.
EP will still have to be kept running and funded. EP office space is already paid for, so why pay rent elsewhere?
I don't think BK is known for paying for something needlessly!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 27/01/2012 17:32 by H's Dad...

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
27 January, 2012 18:31
Quote:
ashtonshark
Quote:
DaveAitch
Of course there is local rugby played in those places, but the big, big difference is that there isn't much in the way of football as an alternative attraction for the spectator class: nor rugby league, neither.

Dave, Not sure I follow your logic here. Whats football got to do with whether someone goes to watch rugby on a Saturday afternoon or plays rugby on a Saturday afternoon.

Ashton, plenty, in terms of watching rugby: hence my use of the term "spectator class".

(In terms of football versus playing rugby (which I made no previous comment about) , I can only assume you have never had to get rugby teams out on a Saturday afternoon when football was being played. Certainly at Caldy there were always those who had football season tickets, and would miss several games a season.)

edited for typo.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 27/01/2012 18:32 by DaveAitch.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
ashtonshark (IP Logged)
27 January, 2012 19:08
DaveA, I agree with you that football affects local rugby on a Saturday and would so the same if Sale moved to Saturdays. My other half had a season ticket for years at Utd and only got one at Sale when we moved to Fridays. However this is a completely different issue. My question was why should local rugby (not Football) should be a bigger problem for Sale than for other clubs and you reply because we live in a football dominated area. I still don't see the connection

Anyway, like you, I hope we stay with Fridays

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
27 January, 2012 19:26
Actually, I don't mind Fridays at EP; now I've retired I can get there in time!
It's Barton that's the problem; daytime on Saturday would suit me best for getting there and getting home.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Frodo Shark (IP Logged)
27 January, 2012 20:09
Ashton

In theory I agree with you, but in practice there is a difference in locations.

One of the dads in my son's rugby team, yes rugby team ,complains that when he works in Northampton, which he does frequently, no one will talk about football with him, they only want to talk about rugby.

Toby Flood said that when he moved from Newcastle to Leicester one of the differences was that in Leicester he couldn't go out without being recognised, whereas in Newcastle he had been relatively invisible.

As far as I know, neither Gloucester nor Bath have any decent level football teams and certainly don't have any Rugby League.

It is different here. Rugby, as a spectator sport, is very minor indeed.

There are about 20 players in my sons team. Between them they probably watch Sale 25 times a season, and he is responsible for 60% of those.

I have no doubt whatsoever that the number of supporters in
a similar age team in Leicester, Northampton, Bath, Gloucester and others would be many times that.

The reason why local rugby is a bigger issue here comes, I believe from that.

The rugby pool is much much smaller. In other places rugby is a major thing, and there are enough people to play and watch. But also perhaps those who no longer play in Leicester now go to watch Tigers. Unfortunately many of those who have retired from local rugby around here go to watch Manchester United etc.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
P A B (IP Logged)
27 January, 2012 21:00
If we do move then when do we play ??

Fri night is now problematic as Salford have gone for Fridays, so we could only do fridays outside SL season ie from late Sep -> mid Jan.
Sat afternoon would be free, but would the police OK our games if Utd were also at home just down the road ? The M60 queues clockwise from before J6 when Utd are at home & I guess its as bad anti clockwise. So add in another 8-9k & gridlock results.
Sun is less likely to clash with footy, but no one in their right mind would go near the M60 trafford centre junctions on a sunday, esp from mid nov to early Jan.

Footy could make planning a nightmare as we know Sky are apt to get games switched at shortish notice, so we would lose the ability have a fixed 'time' for all our games which would in turn hinder season tkt sales.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's Dad.. (IP Logged)
28 January, 2012 09:19
The "no-one in their right mind" option seems likely to me for most of the year from around now. Colts rugby is pretty much the only clash in the afternoon and their leagues tend to draw to an end around early Feb, so only the cup games clash.
Before that i expect they will try different options.
However we should all remember that broadcasters will no doubt have an increasing influence on game day and timings.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
28 January, 2012 11:30
Ashton, I think that because the Sale catchment area has fewer potential spectators available, it, Sale, has to rely more heavily on those who are involved in local rugby than many other clubs do. To tell you the truth, rather than being bothered about Sale I'm more worried about the impact moving to Saturday afternoon would have on local rugby. It is difficult enough at the moment trying to get people to play or to have some other involvement. If another easy option (i.e. watching) is given to them the pressure on local rugby clubs will intensify. For me, though, local rugby would win most of the time. The question in the end is which way will others go?

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
ashtonshark (IP Logged)
28 January, 2012 16:28
Short of asking every spectator in the ground I don't think we will really know the effect on attendance until it happens. There would likely be people who stop going but also people who start going if we went to Saturdays.

Barton is clearly an issue for some as well. the stadium looks great but I have the same resevations about access as most people. But if we end up there so be it and I'll still have a season ticket

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
28 January, 2012 18:00
Well, AshtonShark, I think SS should 'ask every supporter in the ground'. As you say, how else are they going to know? Supporters hold such strong views on the matter that I'm sure they would all complete a questionaire.

Whist they are at it, SS could ask how many supporters will attend Barton and also explain how they intend to help supporters get there since they must be aware of supporters concerns.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's D (IP Logged)
28 January, 2012 19:33
Is anyone aware if they have done any sort of limited survey w.r.t. moving to Barton?
I'm not aware of any.
Judging from those I know living south of EP they are going to lose a lot of support, but are they relying on mere anecdotal evidence?
Why no use of their email list? A very odd decision not to at least seek some sort of an idea....

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Frodo Shark (IP Logged)
28 January, 2012 22:11
Quote:
H's D
Is anyone aware if they have done any sort of limited survey w.r.t. moving to Barton?
I'm not aware of any.
..

I'm not aware of any either

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
SB14 (IP Logged)
29 January, 2012 10:27
The only people who have asked me if I would like to move to Barton are the people on here. And my answer is still No!

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Gandalfzz (IP Logged)
29 January, 2012 10:47
There was a survey just before the start of this season. I think it was on here and possibly in a club E.

It was concerned basically with days/times of games. For a survey it was rather biased towards the answers that were required(!!).

There was no way you could answer all your personal options.

Thus analysis would be very slanted. No way to get meaningful cross tabulations from it.



I am anyones equal, but no ones superior

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
iBozz (IP Logged)
29 January, 2012 10:51
The club don't seem to ask us much, if anything, these days. Even the club's own suggested Fans' Forum, which purported to be to listen to what supporters felt (and, to a certain extent, did) has fallen into disrepute - and the promised resurrection never happened.

What concerns me is the total silence of the SSSC on this matter. Was that not set up to represent the interests of the supporters and be completely independent of the club? This seems like a perfect example of when the SSSC should be asking questions on our behalf.

Where's the present day SSSC equivalent of CE when you need her to bang on a few doors and ask pertinent questions?



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

In loving memory of Her Ladyship - d: 29/12/2007.

You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. RiP

http://www.smiliegenerator.de/s38/smilies-17395.png

Please help medical research by Folding@Home and join Swanny's Irregulars - PM me for details. Please!


South Stand with The New Birtles Faithful.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's D (IP Logged)
29 January, 2012 11:11
IMHO that whole function of the SSSC was lost when CE stepped down.
I suspect at least one or two on the committee know far more than they let on, having been told in confidence, as there is an awkward silence if Barton is mentioned. But one cannot expect them to act otherwise.
Overall though, I tend to think that they take the view that this sort of discussion is not within their remit.
That's a perfectly reasonable attitude as they do all the hard work both on behalf of individual supporters and in organizing events, of course.
Unfortunately that tends to leave a lot of supporters feeling a tad disenfranchised. The insiders and outsiders thing.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 29/01/2012 11:34 by H's D.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
29 January, 2012 11:36
I suspect the reason for lack of communication from SS to concerns raised is that there are no answers available.

It's fairly obvious that access for the numbers SS want to attend Barton, especially on a Friday night, is going to be a big problem. BK is on record as wanting to push attendance figures up towards 8-10k quite quickly. That's a big increase on the numbers that Salford Reds attract.

The Stadium looks fine; I'll just have to forgoe a couple of pints afterwards. There's only one massive question for me; how are we all going to get there? I would be amazed if SS were able to give a satisfactory answer to that, even for attendance of current numbers of around 6k!

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Frodo Shark (IP Logged)
30 January, 2012 10:06
For anyone with Sky+ (or Sky without the plus but doesn't want to watch Scotland v. England or Sale v. Scarlets), SS1 is showing Salford v. Castleford on Saturday on Saturday evening. 5:30 for 6pm start.

It might be your only chance to see the inside of the stadium. (I hope!)

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Tigger (IP Logged)
30 January, 2012 13:36
If anyone fancies going to see a game at the stadium for free sign on here....

Real Radio XS



http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a83/DEmmerich/gws21.jpg

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in one pretty and preserved piece BUT to slide across the line broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out, leaking oil, shouting

GERONIMO!!!

RIP Marco Simoncelli 20/01/87 - 23/10/2011

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's Dad.. (IP Logged)
30 January, 2012 13:52
Thanks Tigger, an ideal suggestion.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
30 January, 2012 13:59
We're off to Widnes this Friday for free. It's some link up caldy has with them - 5 for the coach. It'll be interesting to compare and contrast Widnes and sale, League and Union on a Friday night. Widnes is significantly closer too.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
30 January, 2012 23:17
Will the 'Blue seats at Barton' topic have the most postings??
We're on page 4 now; but Mozzer always takes a lot of space with his tee shirt! (Sm100)

Anyone know what the record is? I can't think of a better topic to beat it!

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
31 January, 2012 00:16
Nowhere near yet, we had a summer quiz a few years back that surpassed 1861 postings (great celebrations were held), can't remember how many pages that was, but this post will be the 339th on this topic, quick and dirty maths suggests 1861 posts would be around 20 pages.

FWIW, I don't believe Mozzers t-shirt affects the numbe rof pages, it is number of posts that determines page breaks, not their physical length



http://www.sportnetwork.net/mainadmin/img/2451156279081.gif
We are the angry mob. We read the papers every day. We like who we like, we hate who we hate, but we're also easily swayed.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
31 January, 2012 05:18
The Pirates' forum has an ongoing word association game which has 8830 posts at present. Mind you, it's not the most exciting thread.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Gandalfzz (IP Logged)
31 January, 2012 09:08
PS was it a quiz or jokes?
Seem to remember it was well over 2000(Pedant request ?)



I am anyones equal, but no ones superior

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Mozzer (IP Logged)
31 January, 2012 09:31
Still, it's prompted me to change it. Do not think this means I am no longer bitter and twisted, mind smiling smiley



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
31 January, 2012 09:44
Mozzer, I prefer the Tee Shirt! (Sm115)

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Mozzer (IP Logged)
31 January, 2012 10:18
Apologies Rugbydon. I never have had the populist touch.

Still, it was that or another great big pic like this:

http://www.theboydonegood.com/images/designs/hardcastle-road-sk3-tshirt_design.jpg

or this:

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b399/timwwfc2/Stockport1.jpg



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's Dad.. (IP Logged)
31 January, 2012 11:27
Could you add:

"..... a few million quid the poorer! "

to that poem Mozzer, in order to keep it real.(Sm14)

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Mozzer (IP Logged)
31 January, 2012 11:56
Some of them will have got their money's worth out of our ground by the end. Some of the late-arriving chancers should lose some money, but I'm not losing any sleep over them.

If Joe90 was still posting he'd be pointing out from where I've taken the words on loan.

http://www.jayfan.com/uploadimg/201103/28/13122118.jpeg



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
01 February, 2012 06:09
I never realised Joe90 was Troubled. Sincerely hope he didn't suffer the same fate.



http://www.sportnetwork.net/mainadmin/img/2451156279081.gif
We are the angry mob. We read the papers every day. We like who we like, we hate who we hate, but we're also easily swayed.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
iBozz (IP Logged)
01 February, 2012 08:30
Quote:
And people who are uglier than you and I

Name names, Mozzer!

Clearly we know who you are, and clearly I know who I am, so name names! grinning smiley



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

In loving memory of Her Ladyship - d: 29/12/2007.

You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. RiP

http://www.smiliegenerator.de/s38/smilies-17395.png

Please help medical research by Folding@Home and join Swanny's Irregulars - PM me for details. Please!


South Stand with The New Birtles Faithful.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Mozzer (IP Logged)
01 February, 2012 09:01
You've read Yellow Board, iBozz. You know. winking smiley

Excellent work, PoyntonShark. Extra marks awarded there. smiling smiley



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's D (IP Logged)
01 February, 2012 10:59
Have another cup of coffee Mozzer, you clearly need it.
Some say the yellow board is inhabited by weak people who's take on life is just what they want it to be.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Mozzer (IP Logged)
01 February, 2012 11:27
I'd say that's a pretty unfair generalisation, H's Dad. Especially as Yellow Board has often been ahead of the game regarding yourselves when compared to this board (if we are to generalise). Of course not everyone is always right and there are some things on which I think the 'received wisdom' is wrong. However there are also plenty on YB who could (and do) provide first hand experience of 'life' as far as professional sports clubs are concerned. I find them a very useful touchstone in that regard.

You will know, from having read YB, that we're not just talking about CS here either. We have our own ugly people who are happy to invite other ugly people to the party. None of them care very much for the football club or its future.

(And by the way, my version of 'reality' on the ground was shown to be right last time I voiced an opinion on it. No-one who should have been listening but was rubbishing me has been back on to admit it, mind. It was based on a bit of experience, a bit of reading between the lines and a bit of cynicism. It's amazing how often that approach takes you to not very far from the important point.)



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
01 February, 2012 13:44
All generalisations are false,........etcetera.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's D (IP Logged)
01 February, 2012 13:54
Don't take me so literally Mozzer....(Sm6)
Perhaps i should have been more obvious and written:

'.....caffeine in your bloodstream...
and people who are weaker than you and I,
they take what they want from life!'

- some of us are closet Smithsonians and hide it.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Mozzer (IP Logged)
01 February, 2012 16:29
Ah, I see. Apologies. I have slapped myself with a wet plimsoll for missing the reference. =;-)



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
J Moon (IP Logged)
04 February, 2012 20:15
5,242 on the opening night of their Super League season. It looked like Castleford brought nearly a full stand too. City were at home and the weather was awful but that's not too good on your opening night. Interesting that the camera is shot from the biggest stand, making the ground look really tiny.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
iBozz (IP Logged)
04 February, 2012 20:24
If today's 3012 is indicative of our own potential Saturday afternoon attendance, then changing days at Barton (or wherever) doesn't look too promising.



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

In loving memory of Her Ladyship - d: 29/12/2007.

You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. RiP

http://www.smiliegenerator.de/s38/smilies-17395.png

Please help medical research by Folding@Home and join Swanny's Irregulars - PM me for details. Please!


South Stand with The New Birtles Faithful.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's D (IP Logged)
05 February, 2012 00:31
That's below the belt for about 4 different reason's iBozz!(Sm102)

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
ashtonshark (IP Logged)
05 February, 2012 11:10
Quote:
iBozz
If today's 3012 is indicative of our own potential Saturday afternoon attendance, then changing days at Barton (or wherever) doesn't look too promising.

Its no more indicative of the effects of moving to Saturday than the attendance of 8088 on SATURDAY 8th Oct 2011 v Gloucester

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
06 February, 2012 14:54
What about the Reebok game on Saturday afternoon last season?
About 16,000 if I remember correctly.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
SB14 (IP Logged)
06 February, 2012 15:07
I think Saturday was a 'one-off' in terms of clashing with other games, bad weather, and then also changing the actual k.o. time due to weather forecast,so perhaps we shouldn't judge Saturday kick offs without actually having a couple of others and then make comparisons? I do know one thing though - every time I see this heading back up the board I get a sick feeling in my stomach. Isn't there anywhere else we could develop that is this side of the Barton Bridge?

What about Carrington? Is there any chance of whipping up a couple of stands, a few bars and some terraces and going there?? I only ask as I have never been and don't actually know what is there other than Sale's admin and training facilities. Is that right?

I shall now go behind the sofa whilst I get shouted at.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's Dad.. (IP Logged)
06 February, 2012 15:27
Carrington is owned by Sale FC and is their main source of income. I doubt they would sell it. In any case the road is fairly narrow and windy at that point and not exactly blessed with good sitelines. I doubt it is suitable.

There is talk of the Man City training ground coming up for sale further up the thread, but who would be mad enough to fund building a stadium?
?Just as big a potential taffic bottle neck as Barton

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
SB14 (IP Logged)
06 February, 2012 15:52
Ok thanks for that. It was a thought.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
MikeGC (IP Logged)
06 February, 2012 18:03
re - Eastlands - as I understand it there will be about 8 pitches (training, academy, etc) with a small (10K seat) stadium (currently) for use for academy and A team games. That's all subject to planning, I guess, but City want to build it and it will generate jobs, so hard to see why the Council would say no.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
SB14 (IP Logged)
06 February, 2012 18:12
Oh how I long for a move to Eastlands - and I am not a City fan either - the tram is almost ready to go, track is down, stations built, wires up, info screens have been tested, oh and it would take me ten minutes from my house. Not selfish am I?

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
MikeGC (IP Logged)
06 February, 2012 18:15
SB14 (Sm160)

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
06 February, 2012 18:47
If we're talking 'NEW STADIUM' then the many sites previously discussed by SS in the past come back into reckoning. These include 'Crossford Bridge' and Sports City, Eastlands.

Eastlands wins by a street. (It's worth pointing out that 'Eastlands' is in fact close to the centre of Manchester).

It ticks almost all the boxes; public transport and parking; access from motorways and main line stations; Nearby Hotels, pubs and restaurants; in the centre of the range of sporting excellence at Eastlands.

The problem is the Stadium, but the impressive exhibition at the Etihad Stadium identifies a future Rugby Union & League facility. Time for SS to do some talking with Manchester City Council, New East Manchester and Manchester City Football Club!

This would take several years. Barton may still be a fall back option since in a few years Barton may become viable since the WGIs may be in place. However, money would need to be spent on EP even if we stay for several years longer.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
SB14 (IP Logged)
06 February, 2012 19:34
I keep hoping that Barton is a huge red herring which has been dangled to set us all off moaning and groaning so that when the powers that be announce that we are staying put at EP (until we move to Etihad) we will all be sooooo pleased and relieved that we will overlook the fact that EP needs more than a lick of paint.

Etihand is less than ten minutes out of Mcr centre which, as we all know, is accessible by road, rail, tram, bus, and foot. There are loads of 'official' car parks, and there would be no need for two colours of seats.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
06 February, 2012 22:57
SB14, I suspect such a strategy would be either too subtle or too cynical for SS!
The only thing that will save us from Barton is the hopefully dawning realisation that a substantial section of supporters can't get there.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Olyy (IP Logged)
06 February, 2012 23:51
How do you know a substantial section can't?

Not a dig or anything, but thee's nothing to back that up.


Maybe a substantial section of the regulars on here, but that's what? 50 out of a minimum of 4k each match?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/02/2012 23:52 by Olyy.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
07 February, 2012 09:16
You're right Olyy; careless use of words. The word 'substantial' means 'being largely but not wholly the specified thing'! I was wrong.
Obviously everyone "can" get there eventually if they have unlimited time and patience, but in my view access is a massive issue for Sale Sharks and supporters.

I have had numerous conversations, not only restricted to these posts, about access, but also in the Stadium and with friends. I have also looked into the access issue in some detail including trawling round the area on foot and bike.

Sale Sharks intend, and should be able, to attract 10,000 supporters per game. I seriously believe that nothing like that number are going to be able to get to Barton with acceptable convenience without the Transport Infrastructure plan installed.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's Dad.. (IP Logged)
07 February, 2012 09:30
The worrying thing is that SS management don't appear to know how many current supporters they will lose if they move from EP.
I know they will lose quite a lot from the vicinity of MRFC because we have discussed it in the club but we find EP incredibly convenient. They will no doubt gain a few from Eccles Rugby club.
But have SS done the research?

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
iBozz (IP Logged)
07 February, 2012 09:32
Quote:
Olyy
How do you know a substantial section can't?
Not a dig or anything, but thee's nothing to back that up.


Maybe a substantial section of the regulars on here, but that's what? 50 out of a minimum of 4k each match?

This esteemed and august forum may not be representative of the wider supporter base in all matters, and we may be slewed toward a more active, computer savvy, younger, older, bolshie or whatever cross section.

However,there is nothing to suggest that we do not represent a reasonable cross-section in terms of travelling arrangements.

SS need to be much more active in discovering just how supporters, both existing and potential, will find travelling to what is a fairly isolated place in public transport terms and, from what I understand, a car=parking desert.

But you are right, there is no evidence (that we know of) and that needs to be addressed to prove the matter one way or the other.

Would I go to Barton? Probably, but most likely as a cherry picker. Friday nights would make it virtually impossible to get home by bus from there (free buses to Manchester, Stockport, etc. would certainly help), Saturday afternoon often clashes with MS Society duties and SFC home matches (most of which I have to miss for MSS business anyway) and Sunday afternoon is when I meet and deal with T'Oldun who is unable to attend matches.



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

In loving memory of Her Ladyship - d: 29/12/2007.

You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. RiP

http://www.smiliegenerator.de/s38/smilies-17395.png

Please help medical research by Folding@Home and join Swanny's Irregulars - PM me for details. Please!


South Stand with The New Birtles Faithful.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
SB14 (IP Logged)
07 February, 2012 11:10
An easy way to find out is to ask us! All of us.

Send a slip out to all season ticket holders - and by saying that I am not devaluing people who attend on a more informal basis - and ask the simple question 'If we relocate to Barton would you renew your season ticket?' and if you like they could also ask about change of k.o. day and times. That would give a more accurate picture wouldn't it?

Then a slip could be mailed to people who have at some time bought a ticket as their addresses would be on the data base and ask them 'if we relocate to Barton would you consider buying a season ticket, or carry on as you are, or not go at all?'

Or has anyone a better idea? We are in February now and pretty soon I am sure we will all be marketed with a view to renewing our season tickets. We have to know where and when we will be playing no matter how we get to a match, and I have said on numerous occasions, I am not going to Barton no matter which day of the week/time of k.o. And the thought of not going to home matches saddens me. Greatly.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Thinking Donkey (IP Logged)
07 February, 2012 11:22
Quote:
SB14
An easy way to find out is to ask us! All of us.
Send a slip out to all season ticket holders........

Spot on SB14. Isn't it time our Head of Media, PR & [lack of] Supporter Liaison took the lead on this..

For what its worth both I and my other half would sadly join the ever swelling ranks of cherry pickers.

That said I really can't believe that owners are not aware of the travel problems and the absence of pretty much anybody saying they are more likely attend as a result of the move. Which leads me to speculate as to whether Barton is all red herring and negotiating ploy for something else.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Olyy (IP Logged)
07 February, 2012 11:45
[menmedia.co.uk]
"Sale Sharks all set to join Salford at Barton"

And the Offy twitter said there's an announcement tomorrow, perhaps this is it?

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's Dad.. (IP Logged)
07 February, 2012 12:13
One wonders where Sale Sharks Administration will be working next season, if a move is announced tomorrow.
Sale FC appear to be insisting that nothing is decided wrt Carrington, despite Dimes' public announcement to supporters.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2012 12:16 by H's Dad...

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
07 February, 2012 12:38
As Olyy has pointed out, the MEN confirms the SS move to Barton is at an advanced stage.

Also on another section of the MEN is the Stockport MBC decision to grant a 180k loan to SCFC! Presumably Stockport MBC is aware of Sale Sharks imminent move. My thought is how SCFC is going to sustain their presence at EP without Sale Sharks sharing (paying?) the bills? Or is this part of a subtle plot?

I really don't get Barton at all, given the massive access issue! Maybe we don't understand the money! I've heard constantly that the Hospitality Suites are crucial (whether full or not). Also BK is ambitious with Heineken Cup Rugby, better sponsorship and more TV! I'm beginning to wonder how important bums on seats actually is? I know BK's mentioned 10k but maybe that's less important.

Any thoughts. (Sm117)

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
scrum30 (IP Logged)
07 February, 2012 12:43
A pal of mine worked at barton for the recent friendly(cant remember who they played) he said it took him over an hour to get out of the carpark and that was with the ground only half full!!(Sm135)

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Chorlton Chimp (IP Logged)
07 February, 2012 12:50
26M and no undersoil heating? Dear oh dear.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Mozzer (IP Logged)
07 February, 2012 12:56
In one regard, Rugbydon, Sale moving to Barton makes no odds on the affordability side of things as far as County are concerned. We have apparently been told by BK that we won't pay more. So if that's true, the person struggling there is BK (and I use the term 'struggling' in a very loose sense!).

Whether we actually have any money at all, beyond hoping that other teams pay on payments from a third party due to us, if another matter.

However Sale going does seem to me to affect how BK is going to view EP in the medium to longer term, but that's always been the case as far as I'm concerned. EP has never really looked like it's been a permanent place of residence for SS. It could have been, mind.



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's Dad.. (IP Logged)
07 February, 2012 13:36
Are you sure BK didn't say you won't be paying any more, Mozzer?
That could have a slightly different meaning.(Sm154)
Can you tell us anything about the 180k "loan"?

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Mozzer (IP Logged)
07 February, 2012 13:56
I know nothing more about that loan than is in the local rag.

As far as the rent goes, BK had apparently given an assurance that rent wouldn't go up just because you left. I'm sure increases would try to be negotiated over time. I do not think we'd be paying the same in 2051 as we were 2011! Still, he'll do well to any more out of us. It's quite clear (as if it wasn't already obvious to anyone taking an interest) that we're utterly skint.



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Frodo Shark (IP Logged)
07 February, 2012 14:30
Rugbydon,

Short term you could well be right. "Bums on seats" probably do not add up to a huge amount when you can get lots of hospitality.

Long term could be a different matter. That attitude is assuming that crowds will diminish, and visibly so for anyone watching on tv wondering why the ground is so empty.

Shop sales will reduce and interest in Sale as the North West club will go. Will boys still want to attend Sharks training camps when they can't get to the ground to watch the team?

Ultimately of course businesses who now say that they will take out hospitality will soon get fed up when their guests struggle through the Trafford Centre shoppers at the start and like scrum 30s friend can't get out of the car park at the end.

I can only see this as a short term move. Whether that means there are plans to move again soon, or whether the clubs plans are only short term, we may never know, or maybe we
will.

Alternatively of course, they may have been promised some significant transport improvements. But in the country's present financial situation I am not sure that the promises
would mean a lot.

I am certainly not saying that I will not go. I will almost certainly not renew my ST as I cannot see that it would be financially sensible to do so taking all the ground factors and my own weekend situation into account. And of course
when the ST goes so does the compulsion to leave a warm house with rugby on the television to go and sit/ stand out in the cold following a long car journey and walk to get there.

But, in the Short Term, the owners won't even notice



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2012 15:35 by Frodo Shark.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's Dad.. (IP Logged)
07 February, 2012 15:25
They'll notice all right: there might well be Amlin/LV-like attendances for a year or two if anecdotal evidence is anything to go by.
The real question is: Can they afford to care?(Sm100)

Several substantial things have to change. They must offer a consistent winning VFM product.

Much improved matchday experience, easy public transport access, both entertaining AND winning rugby all have to be present in order for Sale Sharks to thrive.
WE've had different combinations of two, three or occasionally even four of those five present at various times over the last five years but never managed all of them together consistently. Unfortunately for a couple of years it was only good transport links. Now we may lose that if we move!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2012 15:29 by H's Dad...

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
MikeGC (IP Logged)
07 February, 2012 18:12
Quote:
H's D
I know they will lose quite a lot from the vicinity of MRFC because we have discussed it in the club but we find EP incredibly convenient.

we have had the same discussion at BRFC and reached the same conclusion.

Quote:
H's D
They will no doubt gain a few from Eccles Rugby club.

I know a couple of Eccles lads who make the trip to EP. In terms of new attendees, it depends what day Sharks choose to play - Friday night or Sunday, they may be lucky

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
scrum30 (IP Logged)
07 February, 2012 20:05
mozzer, even if the rent doesnt go up surely the fixed costs eg ground and mainenance staff would also have to be borne by county once sale have left???

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Frodo Shark (IP Logged)
07 February, 2012 20:30
scrum30, I would guess that those are now paid by the owner of the ground and would remain with CS regardless of how many tenants it has.

Therefore if County's rent doesn't go up, BKs deficit on running the ground will increase .

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
woodley shark (IP Logged)
07 February, 2012 20:30
Maybe the loan from Stockport MBC of 180k is to help offset the loss in funding provided by the Football league in a paracute payment made to clubs being relegated from the football league.I'm sure I read somewhere a figure of 250K, thats a massive loss for anyone, but a team that could possibly go down again... could be the deathnell.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
scrum30 (IP Logged)
07 February, 2012 22:29
i can see why bk pays those costs now but why would he continue to pay these once sharks have gone??

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's D (IP Logged)
07 February, 2012 22:39
AS he has often repeated, he wants to remove the stone from his shoe and leave County with a future. Ultimately he is a benefactor.
I gather he has actually indicated that he will continue to ensure SC do not have to pay any more for the use of EP than they agreed to. Indeed some say he may even have undertaken to waive any charges until they are back in the black and on their own feet again.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
07 February, 2012 22:46
BK may have a long wait!

He's a successful businessman; he will have a Business Plan to extracate himself from a loss making situation at EP where he has no interest!

Anyone know what the Plan is?

(Sm147)

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
07 February, 2012 22:54
Further thoughts! Of course BK will continue to own EP after the likely August/September move of SS to Barton. It won't be worth anything to him with County continuing to play there.

(Sm111)

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
H's D (IP Logged)
07 February, 2012 23:07
IMHO the council are odds on favourites to take on the mantle of ownership, with BK paying off the mortgage in return for........? ( insert what you think)
IMHO he still has County's interests at heart.
It will mean a lot to him personally if he can ensure County can continue to play there for the foreseeable future.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Readingthemen (IP Logged)
08 February, 2012 06:58
Is it just me or does the MEN just say that Salford and Peel Holdings are keen for Sale Sharks to go to Barton. Maybe Sale are and maybe Sale aren't who can tell from this article, or maybe it is a ploy by someone just to wind us all up.You pays your money, or not, and interpret it as you want.(Sm122)

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
wineshark (IP Logged)
08 February, 2012 07:16
Readingthemen, Ihope you are right,I also hope your initials are D.S. and this is a possitive response(Sm156)

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
camshark (IP Logged)
08 February, 2012 09:23
Memory fades with age but didn't the 'big announcement 'on Jan 3rd say an announcement on stadium move would be made in 4-6 weeks.So do I take it that the MEN article is confirmation? And the second signing (after the Fridge)?
Two more for the cherry picker club.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
08 February, 2012 09:38
Readingthemen,
Neil Barker's article in the MEN is quite clear, quote:
"Sale are thought to be keen to quit their dilapidated Edgeley Park base for the new set-up at Salford-which critically offers corporate hospitality facilities unavailable in Stockport".

What also has become clear to me is that, in the minds of SS, the pluses of Barton outweigh the minuses. 'Hospitality Suites' are a big plus whilst 'poor access' is a minus. It's clear where priorities lie.

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Mozzer (IP Logged)
08 February, 2012 10:39
Woodley - I think the loan is to deal with a cashflow issue in the immediate future, though the parachute money (I'd read 200K, but who knows?) will indeed not be forthcoming next season. One or two are trying to tell us that this is not a crisis situation - the way it is being structured with the loan requiring FA approval (why would it, if it wasn't about SMBC ensuring they are covered in the event of us going into admin again?) suugests to me that it is very much a 'get us out of the mire' situation. Which comes as no surprise, frankly. We're a shambles.

As far as BK goes, I do not think he is the devil painted by some County fans nor do I think he is quite as bothered about us as H's Dad suggests. I do, however, agree with H's Dad that the likely outcome will have to involve SMBC and the ground. In fact I'm struggling to see how else it will end for the three parties involved (because I don't think the Council can distance itself from the County/BK issue now) unless it involves the death of our club - which is still a very real possibility. It is a shame that all three don't just get on with dealing with that.



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
08 February, 2012 11:36
Is the C & B going to stay at EP ?

 
Re: Blue seats At Barton
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
09 February, 2012 14:47
(Copied from another thread)

Just checked 'NW Tonight', broadcast last night, Wednesday evening.
Only a short piece on Dimes. He actually says (re: Barton) '...... If the price is right, we'll consider it ..(pause)..seriously'.
Not sure if anything can be read into the way he phrased it.

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