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(Re)Writing history
FyldeShark (IP Logged)
28 March, 2012 17:47
From a post by Swanny on a Rangers board...

"When I joined Brian from Warrington Rugby League Club, Sale Sharks were losing £4m a season and were effectively bust. They had a fan base of 1200 people and the club had never won a major honour in a history dating back to 1861. Within two years the club finished runners up in the Premiership and won the European Challenge Cup. To help achieve this Brian invested his own money into the club and signed Jason Robinson and former Scotland Captain Bryan Redpath. The tiny ground at Heywood Road only had a capacity of 5500 and soon the house full signs were being posted every game and Heywood Road was clearly not big enough as a venue for the Sharks to reach their goals and become a successful, standalone club that needed regular cash injections from Brian."

Interesting view of history. Makes the club sound like it had been a failure for 140 years (ignoring the fact the rugby was largely unstructured, and so "major honours" did not exist for much of it's history.

At least it acknowledges that Sale Sharks are Sale FC, from a historical standpoint (at odds with the historical naysayers)

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
SwannyMediaMan (IP Logged)
28 March, 2012 17:55
Here you go the whole post ......

Firstly can I introduce myself as Dave Swanton the Head of Media,PR and Supporter Liaison at Sale Sharks. I have been in post under Brian Kennedy since July 2000.

There have been one or two mischievous posts flying about labelling Brian Kennedy as an asset stripper, so I would like to discredit such with some clear documented facts
That will clarify Brianís history in his dealings with Stockport County.

When I joined Brian from Warrington Rugby League Club, Sale Sharks were losing £4m a season and were effectively bust. They had a fan base of 1200 people and the club had never won a major honour in a history dating back to 1861. Within two years the club finished runners up in the Premiership and won the European Challenge Cup. To help achieve this Brian invested his own money into the club and signed Jason Robinson and former Scotland Captain Bryan Redpath. The tiny ground at Heywood Road only had a capacity of 5500 and soon the house full signs were being posted every game and Heywood Road was clearly not big enough as a venue for the Sharks to reach their goals and become a successful, standalone club that needed regular cash injections from Brian.

In 2003 an opportunity arose where current Stockport County owner Brendan Ellwood wanted out after running County for 15 years. County had like many clubs been floored by the collapse of ITV Digital and had been relegated with players on Championship wages playing in front of crowds no more than 4500. Brian bought the stadium from Stockport County at fair value, and the proceeds were used by the club to repay the debt to the previous owner and finance running costs, leaving County debt free. Sale moved into Edgeley Park to ground share. Within three months of moving to Edgeley Park, Sale Sharks had their first full house of 10,500 with the visit of Cardiff in the Heineken Cup and Sammy McIlroy stabilised the football team and the club finished half way in league.

During the close season Sale Sharks brought in a new Director of Rugby, Philippe Saint Andre, who is now the current French Coach and invested in the team signing amongst other Sebastien Chabal, Trevor Woodman and Scottish International Jason White. The football team was also boosted by the signings of several players and boasted the second biggest playing budget in the division behind Bristol City as Brian Kennedy wanted both clubs to succeed.

The rugby team had a great success but sadly joint ownership of two clubs in the same stadium side by side was not working and Brian approached the Stockport County Supporters Trust to take over running the club. A Deal was struck and not only did Brian hand the club over debt free on July 8th 2005.The Trust also had an option to buy the Stadium back at the same cost Mr Kennedy had purchased it.

[menmedia.co.uk]

Mr Kennedy has had no ownership of Stockport County since this date. He did however remain as their biggest sponsors donating £750,000 from the Conference and Banqueting part of the operation in a six year deal.

[www.clubsincrisis.com]



Sale Sharks won the Championship in 2006 and in 2008 Stockport County under the Trust Ownership won promotion to League One in a Play Off Final at Wembley.

Sadly the following year things went wrong at County and they were put into Administration by a creditor and were relegated. Brian Kennedy had invested almost £4million (in addition to the amount invested to buy the stadium)when the club went under but never pressed for payment and indeed it was Brianís vote at the Creditorís Meeting that allowed County to carry on trading.


[www.football.co.uk]


Also it must be noted that in the last game of the season against Crewe Alexandra Brian paid the police bill to allow the game to go ahead.

A new group of investors took over the running of the football club but relegation occurred again, with County losing their league status. To assist with the transition Brian gave the football club a £75,000 gift to help them through the first few months of 2012 after the club had been beaten in the FA Cup and FA Trophy.

[www.bbc.co.uk]

The future would appear that Sale Sharks will be moving to share with Salford City Reds Rugby League Club at a purpose built rugby stadium in Barton and Edgeley Park will revert back to being solely a football ground. Stockport County will pay below market rent but will have all the opportunities to raise money through sponsorship at the ground and retain all income from the Conference and Banqueting Facility seven days a week and Brianís representatives are also scheduled to discuss sponsorship opportunities with the club. This will completely alleviate the Countyís fans biggest gripe, that they cannot retain all income from Stadium revenue. They will now retain 100% of such for the benefit of Stockport County.

In all Brian Kennedy bought Stockport County when they were bust and despite vicious criticism from a vocal minority, has been a constant benefactor to them for nine years.He is the biggest sole investor the football club has ever had. He has invested many millions in sport in the North West of England, which has been his home for over 20 years and with Newcastle Falcons looking like being relegated Sale Sharks will be the sole Premiership Rugby Union Club in the North of England and more importantly are fast approaching a break even position.

I trust this brings clarity to some of the mischievous postings and rest assured Sale Sharks has one of the most transparent Media Operations in sport and where confidentiality allows, have absolute clarity with its fans.

You may also be interested in Brianís own website www.brian-kennedy.co.uk where you can read for yourself all about him, his businesses, his interests and his Charity Work.

May I take this opportunity to wish the great club of Glasgow Rangers rapid exit from administration and another 140 years and more of outstanding class on and off the park.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 28/03/2012 17:59 by SwannyMediaMan.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
scb (IP Logged)
28 March, 2012 18:05
A biased and flawed account - just what we would expect, in fact it is disgusting in parts

Rangers aren't daft reading their responses, i am sure a few county fans will tell the Gers the truth, a lot of County fans have strong connections with Rangers

Good to see Swanny communicating with the fans though, answering their concerns for their club etc etc

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
28 March, 2012 18:16
It's very difficult to see what is disgusting in any sense of the word.

Which assertions in the post are factually untrue?

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
scb (IP Logged)
28 March, 2012 18:27
He offloaded the club within 18 months, 750K was for what? we understood as being for the C&B, no mention of the 33% taken from approx 1m players sales
He paid the police for the Crewe game because he wanted the revenue through the turnstiles and from the catering outlets, a good business decision?

75K donation? is this the 'deferred rent payment' reported in the media as 'waived' lies and more lies - when did it become a 'donation??

I could go on and others could do this far far better than me, but it is all irrelevant, Sale are off and I wish the supporters the very best

One thing is for sure, if BK does buy Rangers, he wouldn't get away with what has been done in his name and by his staff at Stockport at Ibroxsmiling smiley

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
Olyy (IP Logged)
28 March, 2012 18:34
Quote:
Mrs Trellis of North Wales
It's very difficult to see what is disgusting in any sense of the word.
Which assertions in the post are factually untrue?
That part where it Brian Kennedy didn't eat the first born child of every SCFC supporter.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
scb (IP Logged)
28 March, 2012 18:41
Oh but he did Olyy - he did!

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
H's D (IP Logged)
28 March, 2012 19:14
(Sm6)

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
emerging shark (IP Logged)
28 March, 2012 19:54
This sentence intrigues me! 'the rugby team had a great success but sadly joint ownership of two clubs in the same stadium side by side was not working' You must tell us why Swanny.. otherwise no credence..

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
scb (IP Logged)
28 March, 2012 20:16
That won't happen ES because Dave is far too busy looking after the fans of Rangers! and he hasn't got the time to answer the concerns of the fans that pay his wageswinking smiley

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
28 March, 2012 21:34
Quote:
scb
He offloaded the club within 18 months, 750K was for what? we understood as being for the C&B, no mention of the 33% taken from approx 1m players sales
He paid the police for the Crewe game because he wanted the revenue through the turnstiles and from the catering outlets, a good business decision?

75K donation? is this the 'deferred rent payment' reported in the media as 'waived' lies and more lies - when did it become a 'donation??

I could go on and others could do this far far better than me, but it is all irrelevant, Sale are off and I wish the supporters the very best

One thing is for sure, if BK does buy Rangers, he wouldn't get away with what has been done in his name and by his staff at Stockport at Ibroxsmiling smiley

So, again, - what is factually incorrect in Swanny's post?

Emerging - the reason the groundshare didn't work is a group of SCFC fans - or a group of SCFC fans and non-SCFC fans - abused BK when he attended with his family. I don't know for certain but it's my opinion that BK didn't enjoy this too much.

From what I've read of Rangers and its fans i wish him all the best if he helps them out of their current difficulties.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
SwannyMediaMan (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 07:04
Emerging Shark

Mrs Trellis is correct in the post made above

Emerging - the reason the groundshare didn't work is a group of SCFC fans - or a group of SCFC fans and non-SCFC fans - abused BK when he attended with his family.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
scb (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 07:05
The 750k sponsorship
The 75K donation
Crowds of 4500
A small vicious minority - not what was said in the media at the last game in the FL - I could go on and on but you would still choose to believe otherwise

He's going along with Sale and that is really all that matters to us, instead of answering your legitimate concerns, he is on a hearts and minds with Rangers fans
I predict Rangers fans to quickly see him for what he is

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
Olyy (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 07:09
Quote:
Mrs Trellis of North Wales
Emerging - the reason the groundshare didn't work is a group of SCFC fans - or a group of SCFC fans and non-SCFC fans - abused BK when he attended with his family. I don't know for certain but it's my opinion that BK didn't enjoy this too much.

Now that is disgusting.
I wonder how many of the knuckle draggers would do the same/get away with it now that two of his sons (I don't know how many kids he has) are grown up and are pro/semi-pro rugby players.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
Fattie (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 07:22
This is supposed to be a rugby forum, not a Brian Kennedy forum. Can this be marked as O/T?

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
iBozz (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 07:25
Swanny's post, whether it be right or wrong, covers, inter alia, BK's involvement with SS - which to my mind is SS rugby related.



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

In loving memory of Her Ladyship - d: 29/12/2007.

You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. RiP

http://smileygenerator.us/smileytags/links/smiley_tag.0103287001410624489.gif

Please help medical research by Folding@Home and join Swanny's Irregulars - PM me for details. Please!


South Stand with The New Birtles Faithful.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
FyldeShark (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 07:29
The original post was not about SCFC nor BK. It is about the history of the club and the way that it is being presented, therefore not OT.

The post has been hijacked following the addition of the full forum message from Swanny. This did not add positively to the debate, just deflected it and turned it into a SCFC fest (note I do not suggest that this was Swanny's intention, merely an unfortunate knock on effect).

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
SwannyMediaMan (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 07:40
I wanted people to read the whole piece rather than a snippet. The Follow Follow Site has to be logged into to read items and the piece at the start was only part of the story.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
H's D (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 07:46
Will you be going onto the Scarlet Turkey fan site to correct some of their misconceptions re. the same history Swanny?
Both Rangers and Barton are of course only "possibilities".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/03/2012 07:50 by H's D.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
29 March, 2012 07:48
Quote:
wiki
The RFU had long resisted leagues competitions, as it was thought that they would encourage player payments, thus most club matches were only organised friendlies, with competitions such as the County Cups and County Championship existing also. In 1972 the RFU sanctioned a knock-out competition, which was revamped in 2005 into a competition for top-tier English and Welsh sides now known as the LV= Cup. The league evolved over time since starting in 1987 when the Courage Leagues were formed, a league pyramid that had more than 1000 clubs playing in 108 leagues; each with promotion and relegation.

Hard to gauge "success" or not of an amateur club. The facts are that Sale FC didn't win a national competition after they were introduced.

They didn't produce many international players but obviously contributed to the contiguous county sides and Lancs were usually competing with Yorks , Cornwall etc. You can research it but I'd guess Cheshire hardly ever won it.

Fran & Smithy's fine side of the 80's struggled against the likes of Orrell, Coventry, Bristol at home , never mind away.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/03/2012 07:50 by Mrs Trellis of North Wales.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
scb (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 07:52
Mrs Trellis - you may find that any abuse BK received was as a consequence of his actions re SCFC - why else would it happen - I add here before I am jumped on from a great height, that almost all SCFC fans found it unnacceptable and did us no favours, I am guilty of strong opinion but I would never ever countenance such poor behaviour

No olyy I wouldn't want to mess with any of his rugby playing sons - but i am not a knuckledragger nor are my friends

It is a rugby forum and i will leave it there - hurry up with the announcement on Barton

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
H's D (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 07:57
Best not draw too much from that Mrs T : we currently struggle against Exeter and Worcester, both relative unknowns back then.
I would say all three of the sides you mention were relative powerhouses of rugby back then. Top quality sides albeit fading.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/03/2012 07:59 by H's D.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
29 March, 2012 07:58
I had assumed that the abuse BK received was nothing to do with his perceived sexual behaviour but was in response to him being a rugby union club owner who purchased both a football club and a football ground.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/03/2012 08:01 by Mrs Trellis of North Wales.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
South West Shark (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 07:58
I admit, I've come into this one late, but I feel like I'm missing something.

County fans should be frustrated, annoyed, maybe angry. Their team hasn't done as well in the last 10 years, as they would have hoped. That I can understand.

Where I lose it, is the link that this is somehow BKs fault. I'm prepared to listen to arguments and different perspectives- whinging, on the other hand is tedious and doesn't help County out one bit.

I wish him the very best of luck if he does find a way to get involved at Rangers and alsi hope that County (and the fans) are able to move on and get a bit of stability back into their club, should the Sharks stay or go.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
iBozz (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 07:59
Quote:
They didn't produce many international players ...

If you mean since the leagues were introduced, Ma'amselle Trellis, my dear, then you are sadly correct.

But back in the late 1800s and early(ish) 1900s we were a force to be reckoned with, supplying several internationals of note.

I know, coz I was there! (Sm1)



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

In loving memory of Her Ladyship - d: 29/12/2007.

You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. RiP

http://smileygenerator.us/smileytags/links/smiley_tag.0103287001410624489.gif

Please help medical research by Folding@Home and join Swanny's Irregulars - PM me for details. Please!


South Stand with The New Birtles Faithful.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
Mozzer (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 08:00
Or you could have followed my link in another thread where County fans again presented the opportunity to Sale fans to read things for themselves.

The chanting stuff really is a side-show. BK is a football fan. He will have known some grief comes with the territory, especially when it's all going to pot, as it was. In any event, the idea that hundreds of people were singing foul stuff about him is erroneous, as anyone who actually attended games at the time could tell you. I would not deny that a small number of fans crossed the line occasionally, but then I could also tell you that more fans were shouting them down. I was one of them.

It was about money, as it always is. I'm not blaming BK for ducking out if that was the case (the ins and outs and rights and wrongs of the financial side could be argued about all day) but he could see he wasn't going to make both work (he has now seen he can make neither work) and he wasn't going to keep throwing good money away after bad. In that regard he did the sensible thing and kept the club that had more chance of making it as things stood.

I am probably BK-neutral. Not everything he has done has been bad and not everything has had a negative impact (some has been positive). But I'm not going to stand by and watch someone try to make out that the reason he ditched County was because a very small number of fans got on his back - helping to cement the idea that essentially we're entirely responsible for our own downfall, when it is clear to anyone who has taken an interest and doesn't have a vested interest in the history of it, that the factors are numerous (and sadly, fact fans, the removal of the ground from the club is a key factor in this). Although if you want to tell Rangers fans that he's sensitive to very small minorities having an over the top pop at him, feel free. That should help them make up their minds. I rather think Ibrox is going to stand for much less grief than the moral owners of EP ever have done.

Come to think of it, if the fans were so horrible, why did he pass the club on to them? Because he's a saint? Please. This doesn't sit well with the narrative, does it?



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
FyldeShark (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 08:01
Quote:
Mrs Trellis of North Wales
Quote:
wiki
The RFU had long resisted leagues competitions, as it was thought that they would encourage player payments, thus most club matches were only organised friendlies, with competitions such as the County Cups and County Championship existing also. In 1972 the RFU sanctioned a knock-out competition, which was revamped in 2005 into a competition for top-tier English and Welsh sides now known as the LV= Cup. The league evolved over time since starting in 1987 when the Courage Leagues were formed, a league pyramid that had more than 1000 clubs playing in 108 leagues; each with promotion and relegation.

Hard to gauge "success" or not of an amateur club. The facts are that Sale FC didn't win a national competition after they were introduced.

They didn't produce many international players but obviously contributed to the contiguous county sides and Lancs were usually competing with Yorks , Cornwall etc. You can research it but I'd guess Cheshire hardly ever won it.

Fran & Smithy's fine side of the 80's struggled against the likes of Orrell, Coventry, Bristol at home , never mind away.

In the days of the County cups Sale did well, winning every year from 1972 to 1987. Pretty successful.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
Mozzer (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 08:11
Quote:
Mrs T
I had assumed that the abuse BK received was nothing to do with his actual sexual behaviour but was in response to him being a rugby union club owner who purchased both a football club and a football ground.

Utter garbage. The stuff you refer to was the small minority stuff to which I was referring above. Those who had seen enough of their team being obliterated in terms of player sales and being treated as second class citizens at Edgeley Park did sing songs about where he could shove his rugby club. But that does not constitute personal abuse.

I've said this before, but as the revisionists appear to be out in force let me say that when he first arrived at the club he sat in the away end on one or two occasions and chatted perfectly amicably with the County fans. There was none of the stuff referred to above that came about as a result of "being a rugby union club owner who purchased both a football club and a football ground." That is just disingenouous crap. As I've said above the rights and wrongs you could argue about all day, although we have done that before. And you can agree to disagree, because I suspect the truth is unattainable here. But the anger came about because of how the fans saw their club being treated and they didn't like it, rightly or wrongly. Same as when Elwood suggested a ground move and a name change - you saw worse against Sheff U the day after that was announced than you ever did when BK was in charge. Elwood wasn't a rugby man. He was just seen to be doing the wrong thing by the club.

You should all be more concerned about where this leaves your club anyway. You really should. Keep kicking us if it distracts you though.



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
29 March, 2012 08:23
iBozz - the first cap came to a Sale FC player was in 1927 - Pat Davies. Then in the 30's there were four in the backs including Wilf Wooller. Then in the 50's the great Eric Evans , 70's Peter Stagg until we get to Fran & Smithy.

Mozzer - it wasn't just the chanting. We both know there was verbal and physical abuse of SS fans.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
stevene (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 08:38
didn't BK once say something along the lines of not realising the level of investment needed in a football league club to support them?

Isn't that the crux of it? BK undoubtedly had the best intentions for both SCFC and Sale. However faced with the fact the level of investment needed and expected were significantly apart he made a business decision that he could no longer support the football. How the transaction with the supporters trust was then handled is open to question. Again the supporters trust had the best intentions and were probably happy with the deal they struck at the time. However, my view, is that football trusts, in the main and in whatever guise, will not work in the UK as they do in european football (for example Barcelona) or, for example, with the Green Bay Packers in the NFL. Therefore consequently the trust were left with a deal which didn't work commercially, hence, understandably, that the SCFC fans blame BK for striking a deal which was, in reality, heavily slanted in his favour.

I think from this point BK is damned if he does damned if he doesn't. Any gesture he makes will always be treated with suspicion (quite rightly some will say) whilst if he got out of SCFC due to the cost in the first place then any offering he does make will probably be reasonable but equally trying to support the club.

As for the name calling, well isnt he is a tough scottish millionaire businessman? He shouldn't really give a monkeys what someone from Edgeley with their own view and agenda calls him? I am sure he has been called far worse in the double glazing business!

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
Mozzer (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 08:47
Some has actually taken the time to refute a few of the claims/documented facts:

Posting on YB

Mrs T - well, I've heard claims of it though not actually heard of anyone being done for it (and there was definitely a case of one or two people on here attributing car crime in the area to County fans, which was almost laughable). Again though, I'm pretty sure a very small minority of cretins have engaged in idiotic behaviour at times. Though if that was the real issue simply getting rid of County from the portfolio at that point in times wasn't really the answer was it? Sale Sharks fans would still have to come in to the area to watch games. 7 years seems a long time to hang around after the event if your concern is for the fans (something I'm cheered to see is apparently the case, given everything I've read on here over the years).

It also doesn't deal with the fact that the claim to which I responded is essentially rubbish.

I know that internet nonsense typed once is taken as fact by the gullible but let's be quite clear - County fans did not give BK grief because he bought the club and the ground. No-one has actually presented any information to suggest that was the case and those of us who were there have said that whatever grief there was was as a result of what was happening to the club he had bought. Which is quite different.

We're not angels and I'm not defending everything that has has been said and done over the years. Others can do that for their own causes if they wish people to believe in fairy stories. But some of what I'm seeing here needs to be put right.

As I say though, your concern should not be for what was and was not done 7 or 8 years ago. It's about what's going to happen next.



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
Tigger (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 08:57
Interesting discussion on the YB re this topic....and on the whole issue of Sale/SCFC.

Amongst the bile and hate of Swanny/BK there are some interesting points made about the survival of SCFC without Sale sharing the ground. I don't know the exact figures but there seems to be some hope that SCFC will survive and grow at EP...

But again the hate of BK/Swanny, and by association Sale, comes across loud and clear...

It's good to see H'sD posting on there...mind you I can't believe you were at a SCFC game chanting we want Sale out!!

Quote:
Re: Swanton
Posted by Hobbledehoys Dad [User Info] [Email User] on 28/3/2012, 3:50 pm, in reply to "Re: Swanton"

AAh yes I was there!
I think I joined in!

(Sm2)



http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a83/DEmmerich/gws21.jpg

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in one pretty and preserved piece BUT to slide across the line broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out, leaking oil, shouting

GERONIMO!!!

RIP Marco Simoncelli 20/01/87 - 23/10/2011

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
29 March, 2012 09:00
Singing "You can stuff your rugby club ....." rather proves my point. They didn't sing "You can stuff your double-glazing company ...." .

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
ageinghoody (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 09:04
Quote:
scb
A biased and flawed account - just what we would expect, in fact it is disgusting in parts
... i am sure a few county fans will tell the Gers the truth ...

Hi scb, I've no doubt you're completely sincere in what you say, but I have to suggest that you're response is also biased.

I agree that a few County fans will tell the Gers what they believe is the truth, but why their account, rather than another, should be accepted as THE truth, I don't know.

I'm convinced Mozzer pretty much has the "truth" of it when he says "It was all about money", and I have to throw in a comment from a County supporting friend.

He (unusually)bought a Euro-millions ticket on one of the more outrageous roll-over weeks some months back, joking that he'd use the winnings to "save County".

I asked him if he thought the (I think) £106 million would satisfy his fellow County fans. His response was "There's not enough money in the world to satisfy your average football fan!"

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
stevene (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 09:04
Mozzer

I have just read the points on the YB, whilst a few are refuted with actual facts some seem to be refuted with a PoV rather than fact. Do you agree/ disagree?

Equally Swanny's points of 'fact' are also opinion based on interpretation of the facts as well.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
Mozzer (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 09:12
That's feeble, Mrs T. It really is. Were his double-glazing company the reason he bought EP, moved his rugby club across and bought the football club? No. It was clear that his support for the RU was going to continue and we were going to suffer. So I think referring to the rugby club as the obvious link between him, County EP is perfectly acceptable in a chant designed to express dissatisfaction at the way events were turning out (again, without getting into a detailed discussion as to the hows and whys of that, as I alluded to above).

Incidentally he was regularly referred to as a double-glazing salesman at the time in a clearly prejorative manner. You can dissect that one if you like, but I think it shows that County fans were not blind to the fact that he was not just the owner of Sale Sharks.

And this is before we get onto the fact that plenty of Sale Sharks fans themselves have been guilty of failing to make the distinction between BK, CS, EP and SS in their time.



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
mako (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 09:22
Mrs T ..... It's good to see you redressing the balance on the reputation of Sale rugby.

Yes, of course Brian Kennedy has done huge things for both Sale Sharks and Stockport County and we may very well not be here at all without him.

But to suggest, as the PR handout does, that Sale was a pretty rubbish outfit until Superman Kennedy flew in and sprinkled his stardust over Heywood Road is indeed a gross distortion of history.

However, it is good to see a club official acknowledging that the history of the club goes back to 1861 -- a most important part of the club's heritage that the club would be very foolish to ignore for a host of reasons including commercial ones.

Sale and Sale Sharks rugby have very many things in their joint histories to be very proud of -- not just the achievements of recent years.

And Mr Kennedy is a man, not a superhero, and like all of us human beings, makes mistakes; as he did when he brought in the appalling Mike Brewer whose obnoxious presence brought about the departure of our star home grown player Charlie Hodgson -- a serious loss.

But overall he has done more good than harm, which is a decent track record. And our fine club also has a decent track record part of which, but by no means all, is down to Mr Kennedy.

So let's tell is as it is a not rewrite history to make Mr Kennedy sound better than he is. It is insulting to the club to belittle its fine record.

And Mr Kennedy is a good man who has strengths and weaknesses just like the rest of us human beings, not a superhero. To portray him as such is also not doing him a service as people just don't buy this kind of adulation any more.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
29 March, 2012 09:22
Mozzer - get real! The abuse of both BK and SS fans started from day 1 of the purchase of both club and ground.

Maybe you should have abused Elwood and his Sheffield-based consortium.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
Mozzer (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 09:24
stevene - I think much of this is about interpretation of events/facts. I veer more towards tH's version though. Not completely, but enough.

As far as the debt goes, that was going to be loaded on to us, but Elwood wouldn't allow the deal to go through as he was still owed money by BK. IIRC that was in the region of 4M quid, rather than the 4.8M quid mentioned, but I accept I can't be certain of the exact figure. Anyway, what happened was that BK paid off BE and what were left with was paying off the 4M (or whatever it was) by means of a soft loan (essentially 30% of transfer profits). Had we paid that off within a decade (and we'd paid off c. 1M in about 3 years) we had an option to buy the ground for a quid. A ground worth much less than 4M quid. So decide for yourselves whether we were really debt free or not.



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
ageinghoody (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 09:24
Quote:
Mozzer

... the removal of the ground from the club is a key factor in this ...

Mozz, please put me right on this if necessary, but I understood that the ground was already fully mortgaged to someone else (I'm guessing Elwood?).

I freely admit that this is an impression I've come to from "facts" passed on by parties on both sides of the argument. And who frequently managed to contradict themselves during their pontifications too!

I mean to imply nothing by this question and just want to have what few "facts" there may be, clear.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
Mozzer (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 09:38
Mrs T - I think I've said what happened. I was there. I have previously and recently said that a sizeable minority were suspicious and the majority took the 'wait and see' approach. We didn't welcome him with open arms, but then that would be a naive thing to be doing anyway. That does not mean it added up to abuse (it didn't). And I was sat 3 seats from BK at Lincoln on a Tuesday night when fans chatted quite happily to him. The grief started when the club started going downhill, not when he bought into the place. I'm not going to repeat that again. People can choose whether to believe you or me, based on what we've posted on the matter.

Having said all that I can't say I've ever joined in with the chants because I believe it's all more complicated than blaming one man, though I understand where the feeling comes from. What we should have been doing last season was giving our owners more grief than they were getting, because ultimately I believe we dropped out of the league because of their actions rather than because of what BK was or was not up to. Clearly I was in the minority on that one.

Elwood and his cohorts copped grief when he was here and has been the subject of much debate since as regards his part in our downfall.



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
ageinghoody (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 09:43
Quote:
mako shark
... as the PR handout does, that Sale was a pretty rubbish outfit until Superman Kennedy flew in and sprinkled his stardust over Heywood Road is indeed a gross distortion of history.
...

Hi Mako

I pretty much agree with everything else in your post, but I've just re-read Swanny's post and have to say that your comment is a gross distortion of that!

I'm all for a bit of hyperbole, but I really can't see what there is to object to. As Mrs T says, it's factually accurate.

And I certainly disagree strongly with Fylde's comment that Swanny's post "didn't add to the debate"!

Until that appeared, any debate, on one isolated portion, was based on a false premise.

And yes, I realise that I've quoted two "isolated portions" myself!(Sm147)

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
Mozzer (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 09:53
ageinghoody - there is, to the best of my knowledge, no definitive account of what happened available to refer to. There was a court case related to this though the judgement was kept out of the public eye.

There are two stories though. Either the ground was not separated by BE and that as part of his deal with BK he demanded that the two not be separated and BK reneged on that. Alternatively BE sold them as separate entities at the time he sold them to BK.

I was once of the opinion that it was the latter, but someone at one time on the YB presented some timeline info that suggested it was the former. I suspect that without access to the relevant judgement it may be impossible to know for certain.



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
ageinghoody (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 09:57
Thanks Mozzer

At least now I know that I don't know.

And probably never will.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
mako (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 10:28
ageinghoody,

Like you I'm all for a bit of healthy debate and am happy to see the club at long last making some sort of statement -- albeit to Glasgow supporters and not to us.

As for my statement being a distortion, well I will agree that in reality Brian Kennedy does not fly around the sky in a cape rescuing damsels in distress.

However I make no apologies for what I said. Yes, the facts stated in the club statement may be factually accurate, but in choosing those facts -- and those facts alone -- the club has been exceedingly economical with the truth for its own reasons.

The statement -- a standard piece of PR designed to paint Brian Kennedy in the best possible light -- clearly paints Sale in a bad light by suggesting that, without Mr Kennedy, the club had never done anythying to be proud of.

In PR, perception is everything and the perception to the reader from the statement is indeed that Sale were pretty rubbish until Brian Kennedy came in and sorted everything out.

The statement was intended to give that impression and it does, which is insulting to Sale/Sale Sharks rugby.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
SwannyMediaMan (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 10:30
Re Tiggers post I can't believe HD was chanting 'We want Sale Out' (Sm2)

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
H's D (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 10:43
You are correct, Swanny.
It was in fact a joke Swanny! Indicating anyone could have joined in! They weren't necessarily behind the sentiment.
Mind you was it not around the time Dimes announced we were seriously looking at Barton?

In actual fact i thought the whole pitch invasion rather sweet, more of a picnic, with about 15-20 police marginally outnumbered by demonstrators.

As Mozzer said completely the wrong target.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/03/2012 10:46 by H's D.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
Tigger (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 11:31
Quote:
H's D
You are correct, Swanny.
It was in fact a joke Swanny! Indicating anyone could have joined in! They weren't necessarily behind the sentiment.
Mind you was it not around the time Dimes announced we were seriously looking at Barton?

In actual fact i thought the whole pitch invasion rather sweet, more of a picnic, with about 15-20 police marginally outnumbered by demonstrators.

As Mozzer said completely the wrong target.

I will be keeping an eye on you....and I thought it was Mozzer and scb who were the obvious 'spies' in the camp....and you have been here all along....mmmmmm. (Sm102)

BTW who was the correct target??? Should there have been a target to begin with? And it's the first time I have heard a pitch invasion called sweet...(Sm8)



http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a83/DEmmerich/gws21.jpg

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in one pretty and preserved piece BUT to slide across the line broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out, leaking oil, shouting

GERONIMO!!!

RIP Marco Simoncelli 20/01/87 - 23/10/2011

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
Mozzer (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 12:10
Firstly, BK's bid for Rangers has been rejected, according to the BBC. No real link at the moment, but I'm sure it'll be up soon enough. It's still more about your future than our past though.

Tigger - in the context of that day the 'correct target' is the one I identified in one of my postings - namely the owners of the club. Clearly many County fans disagreed (despite me doing my best on the day and at the previous away game to direct our ire towards them!) but whatever the truth, we went down because we were in a massive bind. These things don't just happen. Not the way it happened last season, which was excrutiating in almost every way - the football, the finance, the public face of the club, the management of the club, everything. That is always likely to elicit a response from fans.

I see where H's Dad is coming from on the pitch invasion. It was peaceful enough (I'll let scb tells his story if he so desires) and it didn't include many people. Probably because football fans are at risk of losing their livelihoods over such things as public protest on a football pitch. Despite the anger (being expressed in whatever direction) most of us weren't prepared to risk that for something that would almost certainly have ended up being ignored. Which is not to say that I don't have respect for those who did take to the pitch. I do, because whether I fully agreed with their target or not they stood up and were counted whilst the rest of us were in the stands.



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
H's D (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 12:25
Thanks Mozzer, but I would also add "themselves" as a target. i.e. the more extreme demanding elements amongst the SCFC faithful and the Trust, both partly responsible for the eventual predicament in different ways
"sweet" in a somewhat patronizing way, Tigger: terribly polite English low-key and worthy of pathos. The local bobbies handled it pretty well.
As long as you're buying I have no problem being stalked!

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
Mozzer (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 12:44
I can see 'the Trust' in one way - but that way is more complicated than bears discussion here. I am not sure that County fans are actually that demanding. I'm sure that will raise some laughs on here, but in terms of the football side of things we've actually put up with some absolute dross for year on year and not kicked off in the way that I would say the majority of other fans would.

2015 had a clean slate (which the Trust didn't have in the same way) and they made an absolute mess of it in just about every regard. The fans demanded nothing more than a reasonably well run club and some communication. Sound familiar? A reasonably well-run Stockport County would not have got relegated last season, whatever had gone before. It wouldn't necessarily have ripped up any trees, but it would not have gone down.

As to what happened before that, BK got out because he couldn't make it work - whether that was his fault or not. Not because the fans were too demanding. Unless not seeing your side unceremoniously dismantled can be regarded as being too demanding.

BTW - here's that link to the BK story.



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
mako (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 13:11
Trying to get back to rugby for a moment and the inital objective of this thread, the Re-writing of Sale rugby history, I believe that Stuart Lancaster's appointment gives us real guidance on the vital importance of keeping in touch with real rugby values.

This is demonstrated by Mr Lancaster's huge success in turning round the England team from a subject of derision to a spirited hard-working dedicated outfit eager to get stuck in.

Firstly, let's look at the place Mr Lancaster chose as the foundation of reinstalling values and determination into his squad: West Park Leeds RUFC [www.pitchero.com] -- a basic down-to-earth typical rugby club with traditional rugby values.

So Sale Sharks too, rather than trying to gloss over their connection with one of the oldest rugby clubs in the country with fine traditional rugby values, should in fact be proud of it.

And no, I'm not saying that this pride should stop them looking at another ground if that is really what is best for the club.

But before the club attempts to effectively write anything BK (Before Kennedy) out of its history, Mr Kennedy would do well to remember that the values installed over the years by Sale FC are of huge value in creating an effective rugby team that gets results.

And that will be all the more important if, as now seems effectively to be a done deal, the club moves to Barton.

Also, ditching the name "Sale" for the "Sharks" name so beloved of Mr Kennedy, leaves the club with a shallow, vacuous title that means nothing, rather than a name that carries with it meaning, tradition, values and a shirt with a real rugby history that the players can be truly proud to wear and give their all for.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/03/2012 13:24 by mako shark.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
FyldeShark (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 13:20
Quote:
mako shark

Also, ditching the name "Sale" for the "Sharks" name so beloved of Mr Kennedy, leaves the club with a shallow, vacuous title that means nothing, rather than a name that carries with it meaning, tradition, values and a shirt with a real rugby history that the players can be truly proud to wear and to give their all for.

And here is the nub of the matter. Unless we are happy for rugby players to be just turning up to get their contractual monies, we need them to buy into the shirt. I'd rather have a Giggs (even though he was@#$%&on Monday) than a Tevez in a team I follow. I want the Sale Sharks players to buy into the club, the team, not just a bunch of individuals. They will be a more potent force that way

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
H's D (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 13:43
The same applies to supporters Fyldeshark. The club appear to be intent on losing a significant number of supporters from the south of Manchester in the hope of attracting much more fickle corporate business.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
SwannyMediaMan (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 13:48
Not so HD, I have circulated all the emails I have received regarding any proposed move to Barton to the relevant people for discussion/fact finding/solutions finding etc.
We don't want to lose any fans at all and if the move goes ahead we will do everything possible to make sure all our fans can if they wish continue supporting us

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
H's D (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 14:17
Perhaps I should have posted "have, for the last six-nine months, appeared to be intent...".
IMHO, when looking at options for a ground move, the probable impact on existing supporters should have been assessed in a bit of detail.
Can you honestly say the club did that?

My fear is that the impact will only be properly estimated once the die is cast. Too little too late .( but I still appreciate the offer on your part)

How many emails detailing problems have you had?
How many supporters will only hear of it after 31st march?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 29/03/2012 14:22 by H's D.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
scb (IP Logged)
29 March, 2012 21:03
Rubbish Mrs T - any attempt at objectivity is beyond you regarding these matters

You have demonstrated admirably over many years a dogmatic and insular viewpoint re SCFC regardless of however the facts are presented

Whilst the majority of SS fans are generally well regarded for honest and polite opinion by SCFC - you are the exception - I am 100% convinced that within 6 months you will be playing this very same charade with the fans of Salford Reds - and of course Bk et al will be blameless

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
30 March, 2012 07:37
Quote:
scb
Rubbish Mrs T - any attempt at objectivity is beyond you regarding these matters
You have demonstrated admirably over many years a dogmatic and insular viewpoint re SCFC regardless of however the facts are presented

Whilst the majority of SS fans are generally well regarded for honest and polite opinion by SCFC - you are the exception - I am 100% convinced that within 6 months you will be playing this very same charade with the fans of Salford Reds - and of course Bk et al will be blameless

Thanks for that consideration. Once again you've gone out of your way to demonstrate why BK got fed up of funding SCFC. I'm not exactly sure which ..er.. charade I will be playing with the fans of Salford Reds but I'm equally sure you'll tell me when it occurs.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 30/03/2012 07:38 by Mrs Trellis of North Wales.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
Mozzer (IP Logged)
30 March, 2012 08:10
IT. WAS. ABOUT. MONEY.



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
OxO2 (IP Logged)
30 March, 2012 08:12
Can anyone tell me why our winning of the inaugural National League 1 title in 1987-ish(??) seems to have been wiped from the memory?

I remember, I was ball-boying for the seconds, when the news came through to Heywood Road that we had won away (at Gloucester??) to take the title. In fact, I specifically remember standing behind the posts in front of the clubhouse - waiting for a conversion - when my Dad told me. Apparently, the players got back about 9.30 and the bar was jumping :-)

As for not winning national titles, well, as anyone who knows their rugby knows, they didn't really exist before the mid eighties. The Cup had been going for a while but that was it. We regularly bothered the top of the Northern Merit and frequently beat the big names from the South and from South Wales. We also showed up well in National Sevens tournaments.

So, to argue that Sale weren't too successful before professionalism is a bit like the Sky Sports commentator arguing that the history of football began in 1992....

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
H's D (IP Logged)
30 March, 2012 08:18
Some believe rugby outside the Premiership doesn't count for anything, OxO2!

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
OxO2 (IP Logged)
30 March, 2012 08:43
Ha. Very true....

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
30 March, 2012 08:44
You must have been in Australia Oxo - the first Courage League of 1987/88 was won by Leicester. Sale finished bottom having lost every game and were relegated. [en.wikipedia.org]

Factually Sale FC were only as successful as lots of clubs outside the main powerhouses of London, East Midlands and West Country. Very much on a par with Gosforth, Northern, Orrell, Roundhay, Fylde, Preston GH, etc. etc. ie the stock northern amateur club. Locally successful but hardly ever nationally. But, of course, it was a totally different game then - there was no money or even kudos for the players to follow.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
SwannyMediaMan (IP Logged)
30 March, 2012 08:57
Wade Dooley can tell a story about why he moved from Hoppers to Fylde for one season. Paul Grayson too with his move from Hoppers to Waterloo and on to Northampton. Oh and don't forget Brian Moore moving from Northampton to Quins.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
OxO2 (IP Logged)
30 March, 2012 08:59
[en.wikipedia.org]

I was at Heywood Road :-)

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
SwannyMediaMan (IP Logged)
30 March, 2012 09:03
Also remember Orrell and Fylde both getting their fingers burnt when the game went Professional. Fylde finished up having to sell most of their land and we all know what happened to Orrell

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
H's D (IP Logged)
30 March, 2012 09:11
Where did the players come from that famously beat the all-blacks at Otley in 1979, Mrs T?
The North side demonstrated the quality of players in those unsucessful clubs.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
OxO2 (IP Logged)
30 March, 2012 09:16
That's the point though isn't it Swanny? The North is a graveyard of victims of the professional game. We managed to hang in there and would have been more successful had Trafford Council supported the new stadium by Sale Harriers. No-one is decrying what BK has done, but we have always been a strong northern club - along with the others mentioned by Mrs T. We were attracting fixtures from many of the big guns in England, Wales and the Borders.

In fact, by the time I was 13, I was fluent in swear words from all over the country and in many different dialects. Ball boys stand pretty close to the action! I remember a home game against Hawick which was especially informative :-)

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
SwannyMediaMan (IP Logged)
30 March, 2012 09:22
In those days HD it was a lot different fixture lists were historical in that it was who you knew. Birkenhead Park for instance had one of the best fixture lists in the North. Orrell only came on the radar in the late 60's early 70's. A friend of mine at Preston Grasshoppers told me that it was a 'closed shop' for fixtures back then and the PGH fixture list was poor compared with others.
Just flicked through my 3 history books on Sale and its a real eye opener on the fixture list of yesteryear. Also over Easter they played Good Friday,Saturday and Easter Monday.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
30 March, 2012 09:27
Oxo - we were by the 1980's , a long time after 1861. Iirc we didn't win many even at HR and certainly very few away against these sides.

H's dad - the players came (basically) from Newcastle, Leeds, and Manchester. They played for the local clubs. Compare , for example, with Moseley who beat roughly the same AB side under the guise of "Midlands".

Interestingly the NW side had players from the Wirral, Liverpool, Carlisle which no longer feature at high level.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
SwannyMediaMan (IP Logged)
30 March, 2012 09:41
Another example of how far the game has come and the changes goes back to the very late 1980's when I covered Orrell home and away for local radio.
Orrell drew Glos in the Pilkington Cup at Edge Hall Road. Winger Nigel Heslop cried off as he was going on a ski-ing holiday and his place was taken by ex International John carleton who hadn't played or trained for 2 years.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
H's D (IP Logged)
30 March, 2012 09:45
How you can miss out those from Sale is beyond me Mrs T.


15 Kevin O'Brien (Broughton Park)
Capped three times by Ireland, he is now 45 and an independent financial adviser.
14 John Carleton (Orrell)
Played 26 times for England, six times for the Lions. Now 44 and an investment banker.
13 Tony Wright (Sale)
Played for Lancashire and the North. Now 49 and works for British Nuclear Fuels.
12 Tony Bond (Sale)
Winner of six England caps. Now 46 and an advertising representative.
11 Mike Slemen (Liverpool)
Now 49 and a teacher, he won 31 England caps and played once for the Lions.
10 Alan Old (Sheffield)
Now 54 and the vice-principal of Redcar and Cleveland College, he won 16 England caps
9 Steve Smith (Sale)
Captained England, winning 28 caps. He is now 48 and the director of Cotton Traders.
1 Colin White (Gosforth)
Now 49 and a forester, he was capped four times by England.
2 Andy Simpson (Sale)
Now 46 and a teacher in Broadstairs.
3 Fran Cotton (Sale)
Captained England, winning 31 caps. Also played in seven Lions Tests. Now 52, he is chairman of RFU's Club England and managing director of Cotton Traders.
4 Bill Beaumont (Fylde)
Now 48 and the RFU representative on International Rugby Board. Captained England and the Lions, winning 34 caps for the former and played in seven Tests for the latter.
5 Jim Syddall (Waterloo)
Won two caps for England. Now 43 and a surveyor.
6 Roger Uttley (Wasps)
Now 51 and a teacher at Harrow, he won 23 England caps and played four Tests for the Lions.
7 Tony Neary (Broughton Park)
Captained England, winning 43 caps. Played in one Lions Test. Now 51, he was jailed for theft in 1998 after admitting stealing money from a trust fund set up by his benefactor.
8 Peter Dixon (Gosforth)
Captained England and won 22 caps. Played three Tests for the Lions. Now 55, he works in overseas development at Durham University.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
30 March, 2012 09:48
I always felt sorry for Heslop being punched out of a RWC final by that thug Blanco.

Easter was tour time in those days. Iirc Sale used to play the Irish club Old Belevedere around that time with Neath and Hawick as other Easter visitors.

You may remember Carling's Quins referring to Orrell as "a layby on the M6". They lost - of course they did.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
OxO2 (IP Logged)
30 March, 2012 09:57
Quote:
Mrs Trellis of North Wales
Easter was tour time in those days.
Iirc Sale used to play the Irish club Old Belevedere around that time with Neath and Hawick as other Easter visitors.

You may remember Carling's Quins referring to Orrell as "a layby on the M6". They lost - of course they did.

It still is tour time for most of us. Bournemouth with the Under 8s this year. A weekend of irresponsible parenting awaits

I forgot about Old Belvedere - always a great fixture. It was a shame that I was too young to appreciate the events in the bar.

I remember us playing at Neath or Swansea over Easter too. Happily coincided with school holidays so we were down there visiting the grandparents and braving the Gnoll as "away fans".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 30/03/2012 11:10 by OxO2.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
30 March, 2012 10:50
Full marks for you copy and paste skills H's Dad. However most of them look old for their age!

You make my point for me. Sale is a contributor along with 9 other clubs! Hardly approaches Moseley's 14 out of 15.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
ageinghoody (IP Logged)
30 March, 2012 10:56
At least this thread has given an opportunity to air some fond reminiscences!

Clearly the national profile of Sale rugby pre-professionalism is very much a matter of individual perception.

I'd like to go back to the original point of the veracity - or rather alleged selectivity - of Swanny's original post.

I haven't looked at the Rangers board ( can't be a**ed frankly, I doubt it would be an elevating use of time ), but I'll be surprised if the posts to which he was responding were scrupulously balanced. I expect they put their case in terms they thought were most favourable to it.

We accept adversarial debate in just about every corner of life. That's how we run governments and courts for a start. I used to think this was "a bad thing", but now I've concluded we're just hard-wired that way. Blogs and the internet haven't exactly developed into serene forums for finding sweet consensus have they?

Provided he doesn't descend to Yellow Board levels of invective, or outright falsehood (and I don't think anyone's suggested that - not even scb!) I'd expect Swanny to respond to their accusations in his most effective manner.


Edited to correct possible ambiguity in final paragraph.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 30/03/2012 12:47 by ageinghoody.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
scrum30 (IP Logged)
30 March, 2012 11:00
Bloody hell smithy must have had a hard paper round!!had a drink with him at the sarries game he looked a little bit older than 48 to me?? (Sm128)

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
mako (IP Logged)
30 March, 2012 11:07
Yes, while the club sadly appears to show no shame in its rewriting of Sale's history, it is fascinating to read the reminiscences above.

So, those who are in a position to do so, do please keep them coming (Sm13)

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
brilin (IP Logged)
30 March, 2012 11:55
If Smithy is 48 I had better check my birth certificate. I was at school with him in Poynton and at Kings and I was 60 last year! He must have been at school before he was born!



The other 'arf

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
SandDancerShark (IP Logged)
30 March, 2012 18:35
I was reminded the difference between Soccer supporters and Rugby Union supporters, this whilst sat in the function room of Chester Football Club this afternoon. It may go little way to explain the difference. It was something that I had missed at EP, I will look next home game. Signs stating No Alcohol beyond this point. This at the entrance to the stands. A thought why do Stockport County have police at matches?

I took a Danish friend to his first game last week, shame about the result but he enjoyed the game. He supports Man Utd and he made a comment about the lack of police compared to when he went to soccer games also that Sarries supporters sat with the home supporters. How did I explain that? With honesty and the history of tribal aggression, brutality, organised crime, (AKA the Chelsea Head-hunters, West Ham Inter city and the famous Milwall supporters ((I used the word supporters very loosely)), utter intolerance of other supporters and the very real threat to personal safety. I am glad that this has reduced markedly in recent times but still lurks in the dark regions.

I remembered why the signs were up at Chester, the jolly times we had in Chester when Wrexham used to visit and the 'supporters' were marched from the rail station through town surrounded by half of Cheshire's finest boys in Nomex black riot gear! Should Chester make their way back up to the same division as Wrexham we have that to forward to.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
30 March, 2012 22:08
SCFC attendances:

Season   average   maximum   minimum  league  position
2002      5488      8168       4011      3      14/24  
2003      5314      8617       3683      3      19/24
2004      4999      7473       3850      3      24/24
2005      4772     10006       3460      4      22/24
2006      5514      7860       4089      4       8/24
2007      5642      8838       4477      4       4/24
2008      6129     10273       4790      3      19/24
2009      4420      7768       3281      3      24/24
2010      4163      5470       3335      4      24/24
2011      3365      4540       2082      5      19/24



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 30/03/2012 22:08 by DaveAitch.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
30 March, 2012 22:30
SDS,

Football never used to have any great problems with the spectators but then the 1970s came in and spoilt it. I can give you umpteen instances of capacity crowds in the 60s at Goodison, Anfield, Old Trafford and even Prenton Park without the hint of a problem, in spite of opposing fans being mixed together. However the 70s were different: considerably different. Football is still suffering from the attitudes that came out of that time.

In about twelve seasons as a season ticket holder at Goodison (from 1996) I witnessed one fight in the road after a game. That is all. That was, by the way, between some Evertonians - opposition fans were not involved.

Rugby will always benefit from the fact that it is not as popular as football. If you want to belong to a gang and cause mayhem to get yourself noticed, you'll certainly do it in the sport that attracts the most headlines. As is constantly being pointed out rugby does not attract the news coverage that football does, and it is arguably all the better for that.

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
Mozzer (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 08:36
I can't be bothered to make the same arguments I have previously but let's not overstate things.



A rush and a push and the land that we stand on is ours
It has been before
So it shall be again
And people who are uglier than you and I
They take what they need, and just leave

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
H's D (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 09:11
Cloth caps, pigeons and ferrets are also provided f.o.c. with Superleague season tickets Mozzer!cool smiley

 
Re: (Re)Writing history
iBozz (IP Logged)
03 April, 2012 11:28
Wot? No whippets?



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

In loving memory of Her Ladyship - d: 29/12/2007.

You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. RiP

http://smileygenerator.us/smileytags/links/smiley_tag.0103287001410624489.gif

Please help medical research by Folding@Home and join Swanny's Irregulars - PM me for details. Please!


South Stand with The New Birtles Faithful.


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