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Note to BK on the new ground
james46 (IP Logged)
03 January, 2013 10:28
Check out the efforts that Sarries are going to;

[www.telegraph.co.uk]

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
03 January, 2013 10:36
One think I did note when I read it early this morning is that transport has been given some thought.

I have to say, though, that it looks like a ground where even the closest seat is a fair way from the action, because of the running track. I've never liked that sort.

The last stadium they played at against Northampton (Milton Keyne Dons) looked really good, with several exit roads immediately available and also a couple of stations just over away.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
Mozzer (IP Logged)
03 January, 2013 11:01
Any ground with a running track around it is, by definition, rubbish for anything other than athletics.

Any ground connected with the thievery by The Franchise deserves to fail. I hope it crumbles to dust.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
Finsbury Shark (IP Logged)
03 January, 2013 11:16
Franchise FC are an abomination.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
Olyy (IP Logged)
03 January, 2013 11:52
Franchise FC?

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
mako (IP Logged)
03 January, 2013 12:10
Here is part of their travel plan:

1. The Saracens Shuttle
A free double-decker bus shuttle service running on a loop between Mill Hill Broadway overland station, Allianz Park, and Mill Hill East underground station. The stadium is a 25-minute walk from Mill Hill Broadway and only a 15-minute walk from Mill Hill East but, before and after matches, Sarries Shuttle buses will collect passengers at each station every three minutes. If you are travelling from the Hertfordshire towns or from central, west or south London, you would be wise to let the train take the strain and jump aboard the Sarries Shuttle.

2. The Saracens Express
Fourteen match-day coaches services, running up to three luxury buses on each line, will operate on a clear timetable, bringing supporters to Allianz Park from west, north and east, with pick-up points in precisely the towns and suburbs where Saracens supporters live. Details of the lines will be published within the next few weeks.


Looks like a good professional plan, already well thought through by the club and involving a substantial fleet of quality vehicles.

Just shows what can be done.



Sale Rugby - from 1861
A BIG name through the years

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
03 January, 2013 12:32
SARRIES!

Proactive
joined up thinking
cares about the customers
BRILLIANT!!!!

PS: the real bonus is that Charlie plays there.
By the way what's all this about giving Farell game time at 10, silly idea!

(Sm111)

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
hookjaw (IP Logged)
03 January, 2013 14:41
Quote:
mako
Here is part of their travel plan:
1. The Saracens Shuttle
A free double-decker bus shuttle service running on a loop between Mill Hill Broadway overland station, Allianz Park, and Mill Hill East underground station. The stadium is a 25-minute walk from Mill Hill Broadway and only a 15-minute walk from Mill Hill East but, before and after matches, Sarries Shuttle buses will collect passengers at each station every three minutes. If you are travelling from the Hertfordshire towns or from central, west or south London, you would be wise to let the train take the strain and jump aboard the Sarries Shuttle.

2. The Saracens Express
Fourteen match-day coaches services, running up to three luxury buses on each line, will operate on a clear timetable, bringing supporters to Allianz Park from west, north and east, with pick-up points in precisely the towns and suburbs where Saracens supporters live. Details of the lines will be published within the next few weeks.


Looks like a good professional plan, already well thought through by the club and involving a substantial fleet of quality vehicles.

Just shows what can be done.



Massive financial loss if free buses provided.

Mr Wray and SA investors have V Deep pockets.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
Mozzer (IP Logged)
03 January, 2013 14:46

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
tbird (IP Logged)
03 January, 2013 14:47
Quote:
Olyy
Franchise FC?

Olyy, I think this refers to MK Dons. They were formerly Wimbledon F.C. but upped sticks to Milton Keynes.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
mako (IP Logged)
03 January, 2013 14:47
I have no idea about the finances hookjaw, but I am aware that, for commercial reasons, many business make free offers to attract customer to spend their money with them.

Also an empty stadium is very unattractive to hospitality customers who, I understand, are very profitable to the club. So I guess its the overall equation that matters, not just the fact that you are subsiding some supporters to get to the stadium.



Sale Rugby - from 1861
A BIG name through the years

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
hookjaw (IP Logged)
03 January, 2013 14:53
Quote:
mako
I have no idea about the finances hookjaw, but I am aware that, for commercial reasons, many business make free offers to attract customer to spend their money with them.
Also an empty stadium is very unattractive to hospitality customers who, I understand, are very profitable to the club. So I guess its the overall equation that matters, not just the fact that you are subsiding some supporters to get to the stadium.


Mako

I totally agree, I also think if you are clever with park and rides you can get plenty of people to ground without stupid queues getting in and out. And I would be happy to pay a couple of pounds for that.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
H's D (IP Logged)
03 January, 2013 15:11
ALL ABOUT A YEAR TOO LATE!
This really should have been looked into well over a year ago!
In exasperation at the lack of any confirmation of any travel plan research by the club I seem to remember I created my signature monicker last March!
Someone finally acknowledged it's pertinence at the supporters meeting just before Christmas!(Sm31)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/01/2013 15:13 by H's D.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
hookjaw (IP Logged)
03 January, 2013 15:17
H's D

I highly suspect the club did little or no research and relied on the v poor plan by the Stadium Mgt

I also suspect that each weeks issued plan is again by Stadium as it has little sympathy to supporters

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
H's D (IP Logged)
03 January, 2013 16:09
"Suspect" is far too limp a word, hookjaw.
Sweet Folly Adams comes to my mind! But I'm probably wrong.

I understand 'Barry the bus'...long associated with the SSSC and the fun bus, currently assists with weekly travel plans as an unpaid volunteer. His day job is with GMPTE.
He certainly has a lot of sympathy with supporters as he is one! But he can only do that which he is permitted to do within the budget.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
Cornerball (IP Logged)
03 January, 2013 16:32
Quote:
Mozzer
Any ground with a running track around it is, by definition, rubbish for anything other than athletics.
Any ground connected with the thievery by The Franchise deserves to fail. I hope it crumbles to dust.

As I understand it, there are seats that will cover the track for rugby matches so the supporters will be close to the action.



Cornerball

______________________________________________________
The glass isn't half empty or half full -
It's too small

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
emerging shark (IP Logged)
03 January, 2013 16:39
There is no mention of costs for the Sarries buses... we don't know if they will be free..
I like this innovative idea though..From walking touch rugby for the over-70s

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
Batchem1 (IP Logged)
03 January, 2013 22:12
Folks, I'm new to this forum but am a long-term Sale Sharks fan. Despite living in Somerset I was a season ticket holder for a few years, and a regular at home fixtures. I haven't travelled up to see the Salford ground but I know where it is. I've followed the correspondence on the issues around the new ground and can understand the fans' frustrations. However, if you'd like to consider some practical solutions you could do worse than look at what my new local Premiership club (Exeter Chiefs) have done. Sandy Park is conveniently located right next to the M5 at Exeter but there is NO match day parking. There is a small spur-line train station about a 10 minute walk away, and there are reduced fares on match days. The club also has a park and ride arrangement with a leisure park about 3 miles away where you can park for 5 and hop on the free shuttle buses to the ground. An enterprising pub next to the ground offers parking for a fiver or for free if you book a pre-match lunch table. Between all of these options, 10,000+ supporters manage to get to and from the ground quite effortlessly. It just goes to show what can be done with just a little effort, goodwill, consultation and co-operation. Anything there that might help? Oh, and I really hope that we can get through the current off-pitch dramas and get the boys back to winning ways. Nothing puts bums back on seats like the prospect of attractive rugby!

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
nicsue (IP Logged)
03 January, 2013 22:34
Sarries fan here with a couple of answers - I believe the shuttle bus that collects at the two Mill Hill stations is free. However, the Saracens Express coaches certainly aren't - the one that is the nearest for me to catch costs 11 return (and I would have to drive to the pick-up point.) I do believe that getting the planning application passed concentrated someone's mind it getting this lot put in place.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
Bull Shark (IP Logged)
04 January, 2013 08:32
Quote:
nicsue
the Saracens Express coaches certainly aren't - the one that is the nearest for me to catch costs 11 return .

How many of our fans do you think would get a bus from Sandbach or Knutsford for 11 return? Very few I feel.

Barry made it clear at the Fans meeting that he will provide as many buses as fans can fill.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
RugbyBiker (IP Logged)
04 January, 2013 08:45
Quote:
Cornerball
As I understand it, there are seats that will cover the track for rugby matches so the supporters will be close to the action.

The stands at the ends will be inside the running track and right on the dead ball line. The permanent stands at the sides will indeed have demountable seating in front of them partially covering the track, and furthermore on the east side there will be standing in front of the seats.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
Knuts_Shark (IP Logged)
04 January, 2013 08:46
11 from Knutsford or Sandbach might sound alot, but compare it to the train and then current shuttle bus options, it might look attractive:

At the time we need to travel - train costs 4.30.
Then we pay 6 for the shuttle Bus.

Total cost..... nearly 11.

Would we and others pay this for faster, direct, more convenient transport? Seems likely.

In my opinion the best way to find out would be for the Club to ask current and past season ticket holders.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
RugbyBiker (IP Logged)
04 January, 2013 08:57
Quote:
emerging shark
There is no mention of costs for the Sarries buses... we don't know if they will be free..
I like this innovative idea though..From walking touch rugby for the over-70s

The shuttle buses to/from the nearby stations will be free.

The longer-range buses ("Sarries Express") from all over the northern home counties have been badly bungled. They are too expensive, and many of them depart from rugby clubs in the middle of nowhere, avoiding town centres that people can walk to and necessitating driving to the pick-up points, which kind of defeats the object. Despite living in the very town where Sarries are based I will be able to get to the ground quicker and cheaper by train than I can on the "Sarries Express". Many people living in places where public transport is not an option will look at the price of the "Sarries Express", and the fact that they have to drive to the pickup point anyway, and will decide they might as well drive all the way.

One wonders whether the "Sarries Express" has been created merely to satify a planning obligation, but constructed in such a way that in can be dropped after a few months because of poor take-up.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
04 January, 2013 09:49
Quote:
Batchem : Exeter
It just goes to show what can be done with just a little effort, goodwill, consultation and co-operation.

Batchem, those words are not in the vocabulary at Sale Sharks!

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
james46 (IP Logged)
04 January, 2013 09:50
It's never to late to sort out this sort of mess that Sale have got themselves into.

Personally, I have gone a lot less this year (twice) due to the parking and the fuss of getting in/out of the site.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
H's D (IP Logged)
04 January, 2013 09:53
Interesting comment from Sarries supporter rugbybiker.
The grass is seldom greener.....

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
SharkfromBolton (IP Logged)
04 January, 2013 13:45
A look at Google Maps satellite view shows the stadium surrounded by playing fields, a golf club and leisure centre, with very little available parking. Some might think it makes SCS look like a communications hub!

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
Brummagem Bertie (IP Logged)
04 January, 2013 14:54
Quote:
SharkfromBolton
A look at Google Maps satellite view shows the stadium surrounded by playing fields, a golf club and leisure centre, with very little available parking. Some might think it makes SCS look like a communications hub!

Quote:
RugbyBiker has hit it on the head
One wonders whether the "Sarries Express" has been created merely to satify a planning obligation, but constructed in such a way that in can be dropped after a few months because of poor take-up.

I believe that when Sarries first raised the suggestion of moving to Barnet Copthall there was serious opposition brewing based on access and the locals not wanting their streets clogged up with rugby traffic and parking.

In order to get permission Sarries had to come up with a comprehensive travel plan, using public transport, hence the shuttle and express buses.

It seems that you do thinks differently "oop North". Build the stadium, get a couple of clubs playing there with crowds of several thousands each game, and then try to organise getting them there and improving the road network into the site. (Sm56)



Whatever you do, do it safely!

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
H's D (IP Logged)
04 January, 2013 15:43
The council part-own the stadium Brummagen, that helps explain a lot!
A comprehensive travel plan was required by the planning consent for Sale Reds.
Sale Sharks came in as secondary tenants and appear to have only just realized that they needed one as well (despite all our prompting on here over the last year)!
In fact in reality they need one far more than Reds as far more supporters travel a distance to support Sale Sharks.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
iBozz (IP Logged)
04 January, 2013 15:46
Quote:
H's D
The council part-own the stadium Brummagen, that helps explain a lot!
A comprehensive travel plan was required by the planning consent for Sale Reds.
Sale Sharks came in as secondary tenants and appear to have only just realized that they needed one as well (despite all our prompting on here over the last year)!
In fact in reality they need one far more than Reds as far more supporters travel a distance to support Sale Sharks.

Sale Reds, H's D? eye popping smiley

What do they play? 40 minutes Union Laws followed by 40 minutes League Rules?



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

In loving memory of Her Ladyship - d: 29/12/2007.

You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. RiP

Please help medical research by Folding@Home and join Swanny's Irregulars - PM me for details. Please!


South Stand with The New Birtles Faithful.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
H's D (IP Logged)
04 January, 2013 16:17
Inadvertent genius in action actually, iBozz: For Sale Reds... to be exact!(Sm100)

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
iBozz (IP Logged)
04 January, 2013 16:24
Quote:
H's D
Inadvertent genius in action actually, iBozz: For Sale Reds... to be exact!(Sm100)

Ho, Ho!

Very good! You should go far in your new career as a comedian - preferably soon! grinning smiley



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

In loving memory of Her Ladyship - d: 29/12/2007.

You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. RiP

Please help medical research by Folding@Home and join Swanny's Irregulars - PM me for details. Please!


South Stand with The New Birtles Faithful.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
Mozzer (IP Logged)
04 January, 2013 16:29
With spin like that a job in PR is a must.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
mako (IP Logged)
04 January, 2013 17:39
You've got the job H's D. I'd sooner have Sale Reds than the bloody "Sharks" the PR people keep on trying to force down our throats.



Sale Rugby - from 1861
A BIG name through the years

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
emerging shark (IP Logged)
04 January, 2013 18:08
Don't worry mako TV still call us Sale...
Greenwood, Healey and Ben Kay remember their roots as does Pat Sanderson..

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
RugbyBiker (IP Logged)
05 January, 2013 09:24
Quote:
SharkfromBolton
A look at Google Maps satellite view shows the stadium surrounded by playing fields, a golf club and leisure centre, with very little available parking. Some might think it makes SCS look like a communications hub!

That is correct, by London standards it is isolated. The nearest stations are 20-25 minutes' walk, hence the shuttle buses.

There is parking on-site for 700 or 900 cars (there is some doubt as to which is the correct figure), all of which will be used up by spaces for disabled visitors, journos and other freeloaders, and nobs in the posh seats.

There is a little more parking for the hoi polloi at nearby schools, but Boris' bunch insisted that thousands more spaces be struck out of the plans so as to discourage driving - although, as Edward Griffiths pointed out, there is nothing to stop the schools and colleges concerned offering match-day parking off their own bat.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
RugbyBiker (IP Logged)
05 January, 2013 09:30
Quote:
Brummagem Bertie
I believe that when Sarries first raised the suggestion of moving to Barnet Copthall there was serious opposition brewing based on access and the locals not wanting their streets clogged up with rugby traffic and parking.
In order to get permission Sarries had to come up with a comprehensive travel plan, using public transport, hence the shuttle and express buses.

Yes, that's exactly how it happened. Although I don't think anyone really believes it will work out like that, there are sure to be a lot more cars than provided for in the plans and, as always, ways will be found to park them! We already know that one of the "Express" routes at least has been cut from three buses to one due to lack of interest.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
H's D (IP Logged)
05 January, 2013 10:20
It may not be Boris' bunch Rugbybiker.
There is a statutory guideline stipulating the MAXIMUM number of car park places that can be provided for a new build stadium. One place for about 20 seats.
The intention being to discourage use of the car and the associated congestion.
Easy for a stadium company to ignore such regulations however when the Olympics fund a huge shuttle car park on the same site and there is no enforcement of the required Travel Plan.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
iBozz (IP Logged)
05 January, 2013 10:25
Quote:
H's D
There is a statutory guideline stipulating the MAXIMUM number of car park places that can be provided for a new build stadium. One place for about 20 seats.
The intention being to discourage use of the car and the associated congestion.

Clearly a stipulation dreamed up by by politicians who will have reserved car park spaces and who never have to rely on our capricious public transport systems.



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

In loving memory of Her Ladyship - d: 29/12/2007.

You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. RiP

Please help medical research by Folding@Home and join Swanny's Irregulars - PM me for details. Please!


South Stand with The New Birtles Faithful.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
05 January, 2013 10:40
Quote:
statutory guideline stipulating

Guidelines are surely a guide not a stipulation: or at least they should be. Once a guideline becomes accepted as the correct thing it becomes the regulation. It's another of those things that gets something accepted by the back door.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
RugbyBiker (IP Logged)
05 January, 2013 11:05
Quote:
H's D
It may not be Boris' bunch Rugbybiker.
There is a statutory guideline stipulating the MAXIMUM number of car park places that can be provided for a new build stadium. One place for about 20 seats.
The intention being to discourage use of the car and the associated congestion.
Easy for a stadium company to ignore such regulations however when the Olympics fund a huge shuttle car park on the same site and there is no enforcement of the required Travel Plan.

It was Boris' bunch (Transport for London) but they may well have been applying the guidance you mention.

For many years it was a holy grail of "Two Jags" Prezzer's ministry that you could restrict car ownership/use by restricting parking availability, hence local authorities all over the land were forced to pass planning applications with hopelessly inadequate parking provision.

Of course, this never put a single person off owning/using a car, the result has simply been developments all over the country with chaotic parking problems.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
H's D (IP Logged)
05 January, 2013 11:36
It's fundamental common sense iBozz, whatever else you call it.
If you get a several thousand cars all wanting to leave the same venue at the same time you inevitably get long queues. Folk just don't like queuing for more than a few minutes.
Also true to a lesser extent on the way to the venue, depending on the infrastructure.
A shuttle system or Park and Ride can work brilliantly, but it needs establishing as the NORM, or else as at Barton, bad habits take over, bad press results and you lose customers in droves!

The bigger solution is of course an integrated public transport policy and system where bus, tram and train connections are established and maintained, all with common ticketing.
Make it easier to use public transport than use a car and it works. The high uptake reducing the cost markedly.
Frequently done on the continent in more civilized societies. It works well in many cases.

There are just far too many cars on the Uk's roads.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
iBozz (IP Logged)
05 January, 2013 12:07
Quote:
H's D
The bigger solution is of course an integrated public transport policy and system where bus, tram and train connections are established and maintained, all with common ticketing.
Make it easier to use public transport than use a car and it works. The high uptake reducing the cost markedly.
Frequently done on the continent in more civilized societies. It works well in many cases.

That's my point, a public transport system that works - something that this country seems congenitally unable to arrange.

Our legislators and transport officials nearly all travel by car and have absolutely no idea what it is like to rely on public transport.



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

In loving memory of Her Ladyship - d: 29/12/2007.

You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. RiP

Please help medical research by Folding@Home and join Swanny's Irregulars - PM me for details. Please!


South Stand with The New Birtles Faithful.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2013 12:08 by iBozz.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
james46 (IP Logged)
05 January, 2013 12:15
Quote:
H's D
There is a statutory guideline stipulating the MAXIMUM number of car park places that can be provided for a new build stadium. One place for about 20 seats.
The intention being to discourage use of the car and the associated congestion.
Easy for a stadium company to ignore such regulations however when the Olympics fund a huge shuttle car park on the same site and there is no enforcement of the required Travel Plan.

Easy to get around, when new leave some land undeveloped and then six months later develope it into parking.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
05 January, 2013 12:48
Quote:
If you get a several thousand cars all wanting to leave the same venue at the same time you inevitably get long queues. Folk just don't like queuing for more than a few minutes.

Yes, the more cars the bigger the problem....but, look how fast a modern stadium clears of people compared to an old stadium. The problem there has been looked at and bottlenecks eradicated to a fair degree. The problem for the SCS road system is that it doesn't look as if it was ever considered. It a bit like just having one exit point in the stadium itself through which clear all the spectators: the result will always be chaos.

As it is the SCS has pretty much the worst of both worlds. The spectators can exit the stadium itself quite rapidly, and this creates a bigger surge of cars to worsen the situation on the roads.

One can only conclude that the road system was never really properly considered, or it was and other "considerations" were more important.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
H's D (IP Logged)
05 January, 2013 13:33
There are only meant to be 600 car park places at the stadium, Daveaitch. We have around 1100 and it has been significantly more on several occasions.
There is meant to be a comprehensive travel plan in place facilitating the transporting of the vast majority of supporters to the ground. The planning consent is pretty clear.

It was all considered but on-one is sticking to the terms on the application for planning permission or the stadium's own management plan:
Games on Sunday afternoons when there is no background congestion ( the application actually stipulates no games during peak traffic flow periods!), only 600 car park places in use, comprehensive shuttling of supporters from the surrounding areas etc..
All three shortfalls combined have caused huge problems.

Enlargement of the stadium (to 20K), and therefore car parking up to 1000, permitted only once the road infrastructure improvements were in place.

I don't think you can blame planners if they can't refuse a planning application on the grounds that they don't believe the applicant will stick to the details on the application.

Pedantically none of it applies to Sale Sharks as second tenant of course,.
However pragmatically you bet ya' it does: only a complete fool would think otherwise!
The restrictions were there for a reason!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2013 13:41 by H's D.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
05 January, 2013 14:37
Someone had responsibility for passing the plans to build the stadium and someone has responsibility for seeing that agreed protocols are adhered to. Somewhere along the line that someone has not/is not doing his or her job properly. I'm afraid, however you look at it, it is because vested interests are the considerations that matter. Everything else you say is just your normal waffle, H's D.

(Edited for typo - x2.)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2013 14:39 by DaveAitch.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
05 January, 2013 15:26
Well, I do blame the Planners; they are responsible for ensuring the Stadium design is adequate especially the access and parking.

If only 600 car spaces are intended, how are the other 10000 supporters to get there in the absence of good alternatives.
OK, I don't want an answer, everyone's done this subject to death and is as sick of it as I am.

If the Planners are satisfied they gave consent to a satisfactory scheme design (Ha Ha), and the owners are in contravention of the consent, then the Authority who the Planners are representing should serve an injunction on the Stadium owners to put it right.

Yes, Salford City Council should serve an injunction on Salford City Council.

(Sm105)

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
Timpers (IP Logged)
06 January, 2013 17:13
Oh were it were thus

Stadium, what stadium

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
Timpers (IP Logged)
06 January, 2013 17:14
Well, that didn't work; sorry!

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
06 January, 2013 17:20
Damned good try though - yes, google maps don't bring up the bit you want (and I'm not sure they like you doing a screen shot). One way round it is to give the coordinates for us to enter.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
emerging shark (IP Logged)
06 January, 2013 17:25
Dave.. HsD waffle?.. never.. you must be getting confused..
(Sm128)

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
06 January, 2013 17:28
He does his best, emerging.grinning smiley

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
06 January, 2013 17:31
Timpers, I wish that was the view of the Barton site. It would mean we were still at EP?

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
H's D (IP Logged)
06 January, 2013 17:38
At least I've read the planning documentation.
Some prefer to repeatedly spout uninformed rhino-pooh!(Sm7)

Rugbydon, that is exactly what the Travel Plan is required to address. End of.
(Sm85)

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
06 January, 2013 18:10
Rhino-pooh whether uninformed or informed is still rhino-pooh, H's D. In fact informed rhino-pooh is the worst sort.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
H's D (IP Logged)
06 January, 2013 18:14
Might I suggest you find out the facts before passing judgement on what is, and what is not, "waffle" or "rhino-pooh" Daveaitch.
They are still all there on the Salford Coucil.
But that's not your way is it?
(Sm120)

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
emerging shark (IP Logged)
06 January, 2013 18:44
Now now boys.. stick to conkers...

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
06 January, 2013 19:05
H's D, I think you misunderstand the difference between what is a fact and what is waffle. Waffle can be fact: and fact can be waffle, but they are not the same.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
06 January, 2013 21:02
H'sD, I may not have your forensic knowledge of the planning consent at Barton! but I well understand planning authorities responsibilities.

If it's any interest to you I have made hundreds of planning applications across the country, a good deal of them far bigger and more complicated than Barton.

There's no point in complicating what is really very simple; In my view:
1: The consent given to the SCS Stadium did not adequately resolve access.
2: The built scheme has not implemented fully or accurately the scheme which was given consent.

Two different issues, read carefully!
Double whammy - probably not 'end of'!!

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
fouloleron2002 (IP Logged)
06 January, 2013 21:19
The fact still remains, you have a ground nobody in their right mind would want to go to. Would you drive for an hour, then have to wait and see IF a bus deigns to turn up? What happens if you have to leave early because of an emergency at home? Don't pooh poof this, as it does happen.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
H's D (IP Logged)
07 January, 2013 08:53
Hardly forensic knowledge, Rugbydon, but at least I've read what the planners agreed and the conditions they imposed.
The stadium owenrs manifestly haven't stuck to them using legal loopholes wrt temporary car parking. There isn't an appropriately detailed and comprehensive Travel Plan for Sale Sharks.
However I agree to a large degree with your assessment but we should remember planning is based on longer longer term considerations.... it's not there for our problems over the next 18 months,. We weren't even in the picture when consent was passed..
They would have been be mostly looking at the access once the new access road was complete for Salford Reds, but were under severe pressure to permit development for a desperate club. The applicants appear to have been economical with the truth about the timing of the stadium's matches.
Idiotic if that is correct.
However I know of no method through which they could forbid the use of the stadium on Friday nights, do you?

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
07 January, 2013 09:44
A few points of clarification are worth making here.

1. A Planning Consent cannot be conditional on work to be carried out in the future. (Sometimes minor works can be conditionally granted but never major infrastructure, in fact LA's usually require road works to be installed before building can commence)

2. Planning Consents given to 'named users' don't stand up in Law. Such a consent would almost certainly be overturned in an Inquiry.

Therefore the existing access situation must have been deemed to be adequate by the Planners for the 12000 capacity Stadium. The WGIS may never happen and are relevant only to any Stadium expansion (to 20k capacity) and/or other development.

Furthermore the Travel Plan should relate to any Users/Tenants with supporters potentially coming from all directions (as has proved to be the case with both Reds and Sale as tenants).

In my view Salford City Council Planning Department has failed to ensure that adequate access has been provided. This has been compounded by the failure of the Developer to totally implement the consent details.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
FyldeShark (IP Logged)
07 January, 2013 09:53
Peel holdings are serial offenders when it comes to ignoring planning rules. This should suprise no-one.

They are known to (and have been named in parliament for) ignoring planning restrictions, changing use against planning rules, using appeals processes to retrospectively change use (citing well it is done now), aggressively taking on locals with concerns.

They get permission for what they know they can get away with, then ask for small changes as they go along (move a door here, a wall there) and then appeal against the restrictions in place citing the changes they have been allowed to do as a reason for the appeal.

Read an MP's view...
[hhgrahamjones.blogspot.co.uk]

We are dancing with the devil and I suspect BK will find that once things get really tight we will be screwed over by Peel. Indeed I think when one looks at the way they have worked against planners, coupled with RugbyDon's comments we can see that the access plans will come to naught.

The fact is that the best lawyers will be paid larger amounts by dodgy companies than local authorities and so planning departments are likely to be on the back foot here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2013 09:57 by FyldeShark.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
H's D (IP Logged)
07 January, 2013 13:13
Rugbydon I wasn't suggesting the planning consent was conditional on the rest of the scheme, but clearly the LA wanted the whole Western Gateway development to go ahead.
The Salford Reds stadium was only part of it. We weren't part of any consideration.
I was just suggesting that they would view the current problems as temporary and part and parcel of a far bigger scheme. otherwise by your logic, no scheme that inevitably involves increased congestion for even a short period would ever be given planning permission.
I take the view the developers are mostly to blame, had they stuck to their undertakings wrt the use of the stadium in the meantime, there really would not have been a major problem.
Our club were also apparently deaf dumb and blind to obvious concerns. Although to be fair a lot of the delay in negotiations may well have been trying to get concrete reassurances from Peel holdings rather than just rent reduction.
All three parties are responsible for congestion, as indeed are those of us who don't do their best to keep car numbers as low as possible.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
Walmersley Shark (IP Logged)
07 January, 2013 13:56
I always get frustrated/annoyed when I see the reference in the Stadium Travel Plans reference to a "legal and moral responsibility" to encourage people to use public transport.

Oh really!! Manchester has, in the metrolink one of the best public transport systems in the country.

Any moral responsibility would have ensured that the ground was built near to a station, or at least somewhere close to a planned future station.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
H's D (IP Logged)
07 January, 2013 14:13
There is/was indeed provision for an extension of the planned metrolink to the Trafford Centre in the plans, Walmersley.
Unfortunately though there are no details on who will fund it, nor when it might be built. Perhaps because the whole idea of a branch line from Pomona to the Trafford Centre appears to have been dropped for the time being.
Ten years plus, if ever?
It's all there in the documentation. The new bridge will be built with provision for a metrolink track between the two carriageways.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
07 January, 2013 14:20
H'sD, yes the 12k capacity Stadium is intended to be part of a much bigger development. But the Country is littered with schemes where the subsequent phases of developments were never built or substantially changed (Manchester has quite a few).

That's why Planning Authorities always ensure the consent for each phase stands on its own merits. No LA would/should give an inadequate consent on the promise of the next phase resolving the problem. So the Salford Community Stadium access should work as it is.

Problem is, it doesn't!

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
H's D (IP Logged)
07 January, 2013 14:57
That point of view suggests only piecemeal consents are ever passed. Manifestly they aren't.
If there are compelling reasons for believing a linked development will go ahead. I think there are in this case.

In reality they seek undertakings for interim active management of any associated problems whilst any major development takes place. The problem is that management hasn't been implemented.

My understanding is the Barton Community Stadium (& dry weather footy pitches) was built as the price for the consent of the larger industrial development. A classic LA trade-off involving community need, employment and existing headaches.
No-one thought Salford Reds alone could fund the building of the stadium but they also weren't anticipating getting another tenant in for a couple more years!

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
07 January, 2013 15:22
I've been involved in a number of planning scenarios where there is an overall LA development plan which is an adopted policy. Thereafter each planning consent for development phases comply with this development plan whilst standing alone as a viable consent. Two such in Salford are Salford Quays and New Broughton.

As I previously stated, in my experience it's almost inevitable that subsequent development phases change, sometimes fundamentally. The SCS is no different. The Stadium is part of a larger planned development but the Stadium should work as it stands, not just when further phases may or may not occur.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
H's D (IP Logged)
07 January, 2013 17:08
I take your point but did either of those involve a rugby club desperate for a new home within the LA and large road infrastructure changes adjacent to one the busiest sections of motorway in the country? Isn't that what makes Barton different?
Perhaps they should have sited the stadium at Salford Docks next to the new ITV complex, but I doubt that site could cope with Friday night kick-offs either.
For that matter I expect there would be huge congestion issues if both United and City held their home games at 8.00 pm on Friday nights. Even though public transport links are far far better.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2013 17:25 by H's D.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
FyldeShark (IP Logged)
07 January, 2013 18:29
I don't think that the travel plan that Peel agreed to will see the light of day. If we had not signed until it was done and underway, but we appear to have no control and we are signed up to 40K a game.

Peel (as I said earlier) are the masters of changing the planning agenda and overturning planning restrictions and agreements. They will almost certainly cite the co-owners willingness (Salford Council) for us to move in without the infrastructure as a demonstration that the infrastructure is not needed, or at the very least is not their concern.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
emerging shark (IP Logged)
07 January, 2013 19:08
Thank you for an informative piece FyldeS.. as no one else seem to have even acknowleged it...
Can you two just continue this on PMs... we have what we have and lets get on with it..

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
07 January, 2013 21:25
H'sD, Salford Reds desperation for the Stadium is nothing whatsoever to do with Salford Planning Department's ability to do other than deliver a legal consent which is 'stand alone' and adequate for any team requiring a Stadium.

The Planning Department is subject to a strict legal procedure based on National Planning Law and is quite separate from the Politicians. The application is always of course subject to the Planning Committee which made up of politicians. I'm quite the Planners did their best to speed it up but the statutory consultation periods cannot be short cut.

Many planning applicants want their consent yesterday; in my experience, and I know the Salford Planners, the Officers will ensure the proper process is followed as expediently as possible.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
H's D (IP Logged)
08 January, 2013 08:18
Fully agree emerging Planning consent was given two years ago. We're about 3 years too late addressing any problems with that.
We are where we are: it's up to us to make the best of the current situation.
Getting the stadium operator to honour its obligations and undertakings being one facet, my byline and other methods of reducing car numbers being others.

 
Re: Note to BK on the new ground
Rugbydon (IP Logged)
08 January, 2013 11:19
H'sD, totally agree!


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