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Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
GOS (IP Logged)
18 March, 2017 19:16
?

 
Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
18 March, 2017 19:24
Define "injure"!
Are you saying no big hits to put your opposite number off his game?
Or just no foul play to cause injury?

 
Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
Surbiton Shark (IP Logged)
18 March, 2017 19:24
Would have been happy if Lawes took out Sexton in return for a yellow card....

 
Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
18 March, 2017 19:52
Do you mean the Irish targetting Ford?

fwiw I think Ireland conned some pens for tackles that were legal and put in a fair few unpunished high ones themselves. They also indulged in some jersey pulling to stop England players breaking free.



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Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
Irish_Shark (IP Logged)
18 March, 2017 20:35
Quote:
Mrs Trellis of North Wales
Do you mean the Irish targeting Ford?
fwiw I think Ireland conned some pens for tackles that were legal and put in a fair few unpunished high ones themselves. They also indulged in some jersey pulling to stop England players breaking free.

The irish were running with the ball into fords channel while the English were tackling Sexton late

 
Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
18 March, 2017 20:40
there was one by Haskell that was deemed late but imho he was committed. The "high" one by Farrell was legal but pinged.



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Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
Irish_Shark (IP Logged)
18 March, 2017 20:45
Quote:
Mrs Trellis of North Wales
there was one by Haskell that was deemed late but imho he was committed. The "high" one by Farrell was legal but pinged.

The refs seem to deem anything with an arm across the collarbone to be a high tackle now, which is a shame. In sevens it's a yellow which is even more of a joke.

 
Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
emerging shark (IP Logged)
18 March, 2017 21:16
Mrs T are you really English, or have just got one good eye?

 
Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
Pappje Shark (IP Logged)
19 March, 2017 08:19
Quote:
Irish_Shark
Quote:
Mrs Trellis of North Wales
there was one by Haskell that was deemed late but imho he was committed. The "high" one by Farrell was legal but pinged.

The refs seem to deem anything with an arm across the collarbone to be a high tackle now, which is a shame. In sevens it's a yellow which is even more of a joke.

The "seatbelt" tackle as it is now increasingly (painfully) called.

You can argue that Sexton was being targeted with borderline legality, but when he e.g. kicked Haskell behind a ruck and held on to Farrell for several seconds away from a ruck to prevent him scrambling across in defence, he's in the cynical/cheap shot glass house himself.

 
Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
iBozz (IP Logged)
19 March, 2017 10:05
[quote]Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?/quote]

To answer the original unadorned question: No, not under any circumstances whatsoever.



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

In loving memory of Her Ladyship - d: 29/12/2007.

You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. RiP

Please help medical research by Folding@Home and join Swanny's Irregulars - PM me for details. Please!


South Stand with The New Birtles Faithful.

 
Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
GOS (IP Logged)
19 March, 2017 10:40
[quote iBozz][quote]Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?/quote]

To answer the original unadorned question: No, not under any circumstances whatsoever.[/quote]

Thank you Roy

That was the response that I would have expected from everyone....

 
Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
Flumpty (IP Logged)
19 March, 2017 11:02
[quote GOS][quote iBozz][quote]Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?/quote]

To answer the original unadorned question: No, not under any circumstances whatsoever.[/quote]

Thank you Roy

That was the response that I would have expected from everyone....[/quote]

It is the ONLY proper response (& the correct one !)

I thought that it was a trick question from GOS (Sm128)

 
Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
19 March, 2017 11:29
.....but it happens in every game so the faux-piety is very naive. It's a bit like the Pope enquiring about sodomy.



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Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
19 March, 2017 12:18
Every rugby player wants to make sure his first tackle of his opposite number leaves a mark!
He intends making it a psyschological mark but it often more likely to be both physical and psychological.
Almost every rugby player at competitive adult levels comes out of a game with injuries, mostly bruising. They are very sore for the next few days.
Many will want to make their opponents feel they've been in an intense physical confrontation over the next few days (which actually indicates they have suffered physical injury). It's the reality.

Few players want to go beyond that trying to cause permanent or longer term injuries.
I think that is what you meant to say.

In my book only the last paragraph is completely unacceptable.

 
Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
Barend (IP Logged)
19 March, 2017 12:47
I thiiiink that, given the number of occasions where there were marginal calls on Sexton, that it could have been a pre-organised thing to target him. Not just the 'committed' hits from Haskell and Itoje, but if you watched a various rucks there was often a whole hearted and 'committed' clear out by a few of English back 5 on Sexton too. He came out wincing a fair bit.

I think he was targeted - the Welsh seemed to do the same last week.

 
Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
emerging shark (IP Logged)
19 March, 2017 12:48
Pappje, holding in the ruck is common, happens all the time. It's actually quite legal if the ball is still in and the player is part of the ruck.

 
Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
Pappje Shark (IP Logged)
19 March, 2017 14:42
Emerging - I know that, that's why i said he was holding him "away from the ruck". It was a good few yards away and entirely unrelated to any ruck-like activity.

 
Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
iBozz (IP Logged)
19 March, 2017 15:03
Quote:
H's Dad...
Every rugby player wants to make sure his first tackle of his opposite number leaves a mark!
He intends making it a psyschological mark but it often more likely to be both physical and psychological.
Almost every rugby player at competitive adult levels comes out of a game with injuries, mostly bruising ...

The key word in the original question is deliberately, H's D.

Rugby players accept that, on the field of play, certain what may be deemed to be civilised behaviours do not apply which would normally apply in "real" life. They also accept the possibility of accidental injury.

For example, it would be frowned upon, and I guess illegal, if anyone ran down the street rugby tacking everyone they saw. On a rugby field, within the constraints of only tackling players with the ball, bringing someone down is perfectly acceptable.

If a player is properly and legally tackled within the Laws of rugby, but sustains a broken leg, then that is just tough and my second paragraph pertains.

Psyschological mark? Fine. Deliberate injury, no never.



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

In loving memory of Her Ladyship - d: 29/12/2007.

You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. RiP

Please help medical research by Folding@Home and join Swanny's Irregulars - PM me for details. Please!


South Stand with The New Birtles Faithful.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 19/03/2017 15:04 by iBozz.

 
Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
Tigger (IP Logged)
19 March, 2017 16:06
[quote iBozz][quote]Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?/quote]

To answer the original unadorned question: No, not under any circumstances whatsoever.[/quote]

Agree 100%.....no. Not ever in any circumstance.



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Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
19 March, 2017 20:25
Every smash tackle is deliberate and is almost certainly going to cause a degree of injury, IBozz.
If you asked any rugby player if he expected the impact of a smash tackle would cause bruising I expect most would acknowledge such injuries were inevitable and were part and parcel of the physical game and that they would wish to give as good as they got ( or better!).
I think many players go out to batter and bruise their opponents with very several hard legal tackles/boshes in order to put them off their best form.
Is that really totally unacceptable?

 
Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
MikeGC (IP Logged)
19 March, 2017 21:44
As I understand the OP's question i.e. is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable ?
The obvious answer is a resounding No.

Now I played for many years.
I tackled as hard as possible and expected the same in return.
I casually lay on the wrong side of a ruck and expected a shoeing (and duly received them).
The occasional outbreak of fisticuffs or handbags was an expected part of each season.

However, to return to the point to my knowledge nobody ever tried to break a bone and studiously avoided "shoeing" people's heads (as did everyone) - things I would have classified as "deliberately trying to injure an opponent"

 
Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
20 March, 2017 09:00
As I understand the OP's question it is an unspoken accusation that England's players deliberately tried to injure Sexton but the OP is too hypocritical to say so outright.

Shame on the OP and shame on any player who tries deliberately to injure another player - but many have tried and succeeded in the past (Umaga, Meealamu, Ashworth, Brian Price, the self-confessed Bobby Windsor, Keith Murdoch, etc. etc. ).

The formulation of the laws now (no rucking, no high shots etc.) make it virtually impossible to deliberately injure a player except by foul play. Foul play is better policed now with tv cameras - although incriminating footage does disappear when convenient as we'll find out from Paris - and bent lawyers can get the thugs off a lifetime ban which is what some the thugs named above deserved but didn't get.

I await the citing commissioner's report on the Ireland v England game with interest.



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Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
20 March, 2017 09:36
MikeGC did you not realize that 'tackling as hard as possible' was inevitably going to leave your opponent (and/or) you bruised?
Are you saying bruising is not injurious?
I was once on a jury who convicted a husband of GBH when the damage was limited to bruising.
(10-2 majority verdict). She only attended casualty that night and no follow up appointment was made).
The unadorned statement needs qualification.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 20/03/2017 09:45 by H's Dad....

 
Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
Grumpy Old Shark (IP Logged)
20 March, 2017 10:12
For anyone reading, the above comments, this is a matter that has concerned me over a number of years, particularly during the Lions 2013 tour which I am sure I posted about on here when several Lions players were cynically taken out of the tour during non test games. Likewise the spear tackle which took BOD out of the 2007 Lions tour.

I personally do not think that any nation, team, coach or player at any level should be seeking to remove an opponent from the rugby pitch by deliberately seeking to injure them.

To me it is unsportsmanlike and cowardly.

Yes, rugby is a hard physical sport and players will get injured during the course of play but I do not think that it is in the spirit of the game to try to injure a player because you are challenged by their skill set.

How would Sale supporters feel if Wuss were to deliberately injure Solomona at the start of our crucial match in April?

 
Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
ale shark (IP Logged)
20 March, 2017 10:21
Yeah, Sexton's kick aimed at The Hask was a disgrace, I assume that's what this thread is all about.

 
Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
20 March, 2017 10:28
Quote:
ale shark
Yeah, Sexton's kick aimed at The Hask was a disgrace, I assume that's what this thread is all about.

I doubt it - he only made Haskell's knee bleed.



https://c8.staticflickr.com/9/8657/27965002623_47115a2ac7_t.jpg

 
Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
ageinghoody (IP Logged)
20 March, 2017 17:40
How are we defining "injure"?

a) Needs a minute of massage from the physio? No problem!

b) Career threatening? Inexcusable!

c) Removing from the field of play someone already carrying an injury and who should have thought again about playing this week? Sorry, that's the chance you took!

How are we defining "deliberate" for that matter?

In the case of (c), I presume nobody's suggesting tackles should be "pulled" for fear of exacerbating an existing injury.

I don't think Sexton was targetted by England any more than Ford was by Ireland. There was just more opportunity to tackle him because he had so much more of the ball!

 
Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
20 March, 2017 18:33
Finally someone else who realizes "to injure" is not synonymous with "to disable" or "to incapacitate" or "to knock out of the game".
Rugby is and, always has been, a game for thugs, played by (not so) gentle - men.

When I played I lost count of the number of times my fingers were bent back violently to make me let go of a contested ball in a maul. Had I not, broken/dislocated fingers would have resulted on many occasions. Like most forwards I still suffered a couple.

 
Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
MikeGC (IP Logged)
20 March, 2017 23:09
H's Dad, not sure why you are indulging in reductio ad absurdum - I think we're all on board with bruising being part of the game. Stamping on heads, hands and knees clearly is not.

 
Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
21 March, 2017 16:00
It's not absurd to suggest "injure" is far, far too broad a term.
The three phrases I suggested would be better but still aren't perfect. They would all cover your examples. "stamping" is illegal anyway....
Injury is far too much of a coverall term and it leaves those using the absurd condemnation looking hypocritical and foolish.
YES of course I know (vaguely) what we all agree on but it needs phrasing far better than that!
However there are still huge grey areas.....

If one sees one's opponent limping slightly one is quite likely to ensure one hits that leg hard again in the next tackle in the full knowledge 'a dead-leg' may result often making him retire injured.
Is that totally unacceptable, because an awful lot of players routinely do it in matches.

Rugby is fundamentally an injurious game but the degree of injury is what counts....

 
Re: Is deliberately trying to injure an opponent acceptable?
tbird (IP Logged)
21 March, 2017 17:44
Sadly players do exist in the amateur game that forget that it is just a game and that most of us have a day job to attend on Monday. Thankfully they are very much in the minority.


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