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ST sales
Grumpy Old Shark (IP Logged)
15 May, 2017 22:24
Reportedly, a record number sold already which has got to be good news.

 
Re: ST sales
15 May, 2017 22:30
I know several people who haven't renewed as of yet, me included!!

 
Re: ST sales
Dr.L (IP Logged)
15 May, 2017 23:07
And me, yet!

 
Re: ST sales
ale shark (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 07:24
We get these reports on annual basis

 
Re: ST sales
MartWhit (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 09:17
I should hope so given the extended renewal offers etc.

 
Re: ST sales
Rani of the Road (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 12:28
Got mine! Seats now on sale if not renewed [www.salesharks.com]

 
Re: ST sales
clutch (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 12:44
Good news though. More to come hopefully. Few more big names to attract bums on seats, and it is all looking rosey.

 
Re: ST sales
Irish_Shark (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 13:12
I feel like that article is fake news after looking at the season ticket seat map.

*Cue someone editing the seat map to make it look like some sections have more spots sold than before.*

 
Re: ST sales
H's D (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 13:19
One would hope they are increased if only because the differential between ST and individual match day purchase is now larger making "cherry picking" less viable.

 
Re: ST sales
james46 (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 13:38
No actual figures of ticket sales, so just marketing bull s..t then.

 
Re: ST sales
madders (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 14:05
A football club I follow recently announced record sales for their season tickets, which on reading was actually a comparison to this time last year. Many people though were quick to spot that this year they've been on sale for nearly 4 weeks, whereas at this time last year they'd been on sale for less than a week. Marketing BS.

 
Re: ST sales
Grumpy Old Shark (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 14:08
I fail to see what the club has to gain by making this up.

It is starting to be a knee jerk reaction for some people on this board to criticise anything and everything the club says or does.

Ok, yes they do make mistakes and it is right and proper that those are discussed but to assume the worst regarding every announcement is inappropriate.

We are supposed to be supporters of the club although I'm increasingly convinced that a number of posters on here are anything but.

 
Re: ST sales
ale shark (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 14:11
Grumpy - we're told about record sales every year and every year attendances go down. It might well be true but to repeat the same thing pretty much every year, in the face of evidence to the contrary, lacks a bit of credibility

 
Re: ST sales
Irish_Shark (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 16:31
Quote:
ale shark
It might well be true but to repeat the same thing pretty much every year, in the face of evidence to the contrary, lacks a bit of credibility

Or no evidence to back up the claim.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 16/05/2017 16:43 by Irish_Shark.

 
Re: ST sales
Tigger (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 16:48
On the other hand if the club had posted that season ticket sales were down on last season we would be having a different discussion possibly involving access and results this season....of course the club is going to look at the positives....and if the trend is upward then great. Let's not knock the club for looking at the positives....

alltheaboveismyownopinionanddoesnotreflectmypositionasamoderator

Cheers....winking smiley



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Re: ST sales
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 17:12
Tigger, it's fine looking at the positives but constant hype is a turn off and counter-productive unless backed up by real and visible action.

 
Re: ST sales
Grumpy Old Shark (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 17:40
Quote:
ale shark
Grumpy - we're told about record sales every year and every year attendances go down. It might well be true but to repeat the same thing pretty much every year, in the face of evidence to the contrary, lacks a bit of credibility

Unfortunately, I didn't take a screen shot of the e-ticketing page this time last year but my recollection was that most of W04 and W05 were sold together with a smattering of seats around the halfway line in the East stand.

This year, a significant number of seats in W06 also seem to have gone.

Whilst I can't back this up it does seem to me that there may indeed have been an increase.

I have taken an appropriate screen shot for comparison when this discussion arises next year.

 
Re: ST sales
Tigger (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 17:40
Quote:
DaveAitch
Tigger, it's fine looking at the positives but constant hype is a turn off and counter-productive unless backed up by real and visible action.

Not arguing with that...just saying if they were posting about falling ST ticket sales they would be under different criticism...damned if they do...damned if they don't...

Personally I believe that next season is going to be a test of the new owners influence. They came in too late this season to make a difference...so I hope they have had a long hard look and have some new ideas to increase the crowds..



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Please try to keep discussions generally polite. ADMIN will ban without warning anyone who makes a post that falls into any of the following categories: potentially legally actionable; foul or abusive; deliberately or persistently disruptive; spam. No sockpuppets. Please do not feed the trolls.

 
Re: ST sales
Grumpy Old Shark (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 18:31
Quote:
Tigger
Quote:
DaveAitch
Tigger, it's fine looking at the positives but constant hype is a turn off and counter-productive unless backed up by real and visible action.

Not arguing with that...just saying if they were posting about falling ST ticket sales they would be under different criticism...damned if they do...damned if they don't...

Personally I believe that next season is going to be a test of the new owners influence. They came in too late this season to make a difference...so I hope they have had a long hard look and have some new ideas to increase the crowds..

And if they said nothing, there would undoubtedly be complaints that there isn't enough publicity.....
(Sm56)

 
Re: ST sales
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 18:38
all valid points; Sale continue to enjoy a rich tapestry of supporters....(Sm85)

 
Re: ST sales
Rani of the Road (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 19:00
What a load of moaners! Some positive news and it is greeted with derision and suspicion but what else is to be expected?

'Real and visible action' Dave? What on earth do you mean? New signings? Like Faf and Jono and Josh Strauss? Or do you want a billboard with each season ticket holders face on it beside the M60? At least unlike some of you on here I have done my bit and renewed, and look forward to my monthly direct debit coming out so I didn't have to pay all in one go, and the start of the season in September.

 
Re: ST sales
shaftesbury shark (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 19:23
Just to take one of the points here:

Quote:
ale shark
Grumpy - we're told about record sales every year and every year attendances go down. It might well be true but to repeat the same thing pretty much every year, in the face of evidence to the contrary, lacks a bit of credibility

This sort of criticism is easy to write, and quickly becomes accepted as truth, but if I google the Sale premiership attendance numbers I see that this is totally inaccurate.

Average attendances have not gone down every year:

2012–13 Premiership 6,291
2013–14 Premiership 6,350
2014–15 Premiership 6,660
2015–16 Premiership 6,152
2016–17 Premiership 6,202


Don't know whether the club are being honest or not, but it's easy to rubbish them when you make stuff up.

 
Re: ST sales
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 19:32
The Premiership attendances have held up well, anyone got the attendances for ancillary & European competitions?
The total ticket sales/match attendances are shown in the accounts each year.
You should post those as well shaftsbury.
I think those may be what aleshark is referring to.
Both are, of course, different from STH sales.
One has to compare like with like before passing judgement!



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 16/05/2017 19:38 by H's Dad....

 
Re: ST sales
Chris1850 (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 19:41
There is also the question of how ST attendees are counted at each match. Do the attendance figures include STHs regardless of whether they (Or a substitute) actually attend? Or do the figures reflect the ACTUAL number of people through the turnstiles?

 
Re: ST sales
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 19:49
There are also freebies to consider; thats why the accounts figures are perhaps the best one's to use as they reflect sales rather than attendances.

 
Re: ST sales
M5 Shark (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 20:00
The club have to announce something to create a news story to encourage others to renew.
Take the story as you want to, ultimately it is creating publicity to get more bums on seats

 
Re: ST sales
shaftesbury shark (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 20:03
H's Dad,

I am not sure what you are suggesting.

Are you saying I am wrong to say the attendances are not decreasing?

I think if you are looking at year-on-year trends then only the premiership numbers are really helpful, which is why I posted them.

"You should post those as well shaftsbury"

Should I?!

I don't agree with you. What do you expect to see if the other competitions are included?

The Euro competitions have been different each year which really makes it difficult to compare and look for trends.

I haven't the time to try to find the figures now and I don't think the lack of this data changes the conclusions I was making.

But I would expect the big cup year attendances (last season, 3 seasons ago) to be higher then the little cup (this season and 2 seasons ago) and not supporting that "every year attendances go down".

What do you think?

 
Re: ST sales
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 20:13
I WAS SUGGESTING ONE LOOKS AT THE APPROPRIATE FIGURES FOR THE STATEMENT MADE!

Total attendances as per accounts to June of that year.

2009 151,641
2010 123,548
2011 120,594
2012 126,409
2013 112,776
2014 91,404
2015 ?
2016 ?
2017 98,222 (Aleshark)

Please can someone add them for the last missing two years; i don't have the figures.
aleshark appears mostly correct to that point, except for one year.
Did we move to the AJB for the 2011/2012 season?
<edited>
It would appear the trend has reversed at some point in the last 3 seasons, according to aleshark's current year figure.




Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 16/05/2017 22:58 by H's Dad....

 
Re: ST sales
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 20:15
Quote:
shaftesbury shark
Just to take one of the points here:
Quote:
ale shark
Grumpy - we're told about record sales every year and every year attendances go down. It might well be true but to repeat the same thing pretty much every year, in the face of evidence to the contrary, lacks a bit of credibility

This sort of criticism is easy to write, and quickly becomes accepted as truth, but if I google the Sale premiership attendance numbers I see that this is totally inaccurate.

Average attendances have not gone down every year:

2012–13 Premiership 6,291
2013–14 Premiership 6,350
2014–15 Premiership 6,660
2015–16 Premiership 6,152
2016–17 Premiership 6,202


Don't know whether the club are being honest or not, but it's easy to rubbish them when you make stuff up.

The problem here is that Premiership attendances are only part of the equation. I know that was what I quoted, which I did because it seems to have become increasingly difficult to find the figures for all matches. It could be that ale shark is actually correct on the overall figures. To paraphrase: it's easy to rubbish his premise by just choosing those figures that suit one's own, while not made up they are not telling the full truth.

 
Re: ST sales
Hookers (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 20:59
Well I'll be renewing once my Holiday is out of the way.
So lets all stop whinging about access to the ground, what the club have and haven't done, look forward to (hopefully) some more decent signings, and enjoy the summer if we get one!



The Artist Formerly Known As 'The Hookers Union'.

 
Re: ST sales
ale shark (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 21:05
Quote:
Tigger
Personally I believe that next season is going to be a test of the new owners influence. They came in too late this season to make a difference....

I agree but in fairness to the new owners they did bring in Denny this season, without that we could well have been relegated. I don't think we give them enough credit for this.

 
Re: ST sales
ale shark (IP Logged)
16 May, 2017 21:47
Attendance and averages this season was:
Total = 98,222 / 16 = 6,139
League = 68,221 / 11 = 6,202
Europe = 19,835 / 3 = 6,612
Anglo = 10,166 / 2 = 5,083

For those that are interested/bothered by a couple of other league stats:

Fridays
Average Attendance = 5,349
Average Trys = 2
Average Points = 2.17

Weekends
Average attendance = 7,225
Average Trys = 2.8
Average Points = 3

All figures taken from the club’s website, there may be errors on my calcs but they look about right.

Can’t be bothered to do 15/16 right now. I'd imagine they're not as good as this year mainly becuse of the Euro games.

 
Re: ST sales
hilly07 (IP Logged)
17 May, 2017 13:16
Quote:
madders
A football club I follow recently announced record sales for their season tickets, which on reading was actually a comparison to this time last year. Many people though were quick to spot that this year they've been on sale for nearly 4 weeks, whereas at this time last year they'd been on sale for less than a week. Marketing BS.

Are you a Coventry fan by any chance Madders - if so I saw the same rubbish from our corrupt and out of touch owners. I'm sure the people who have to work there day to day are good people but if ever posters on here want to know what it is like to follow a truly awful organisation there are plenty of pro teams out there that make any grievance you have with Sale tiny in comparison.

 
Re: ST sales
shaftesbury shark (IP Logged)
17 May, 2017 14:30
I will leave this discussion now, but wanted to add the following comments.

H's Dad, I do not believe the figures you provide are entirely helpful.

Since the move to AJ Bell for 2012/13 season, you have provided the following data:

2013 112,776
2014 91,404
2015 ?
2016 ?
2017 98,222

I do not see anything here in what you show to indicate I was incorrect in challenging the assertion that attendances were dropping, or not using "APPROPRIATE FIGURES FOR THE STATEMENT MADE"? (your capitals)

2012/13 included of course the Heineken cup and an extra home game (Anglo-Welsh semi-final), both of which were missing in 2013/14. Perhaps there was a 1st season effect also, I don't know.

I was not claiming that attendances were stable, just that based on the data I could find, it seemed incorrect to claim there was a decrease year on year (and therefore criticise the club on the back of that claim).


Dave Aitch, you wrote that "The problem here is that Premiership attendances are only part of the equation."

Whilst this is true, I do not see why it is not useful to look into the Premiership data (I could not easily find anything else). I don't see why the other games should show such a different picture (drop in attendances) if the premiership attendances are stable, as well as the obvious differences year on year between Heineken/Champions and Challenge cups? In the absence of any data to support this, why would you think that could be the case?

I do agree it could be that ale shark is correct, however all I am trying to point out is that none of the available data supports that position, which in my mind makes it harsh and unfair to then accuse the club of a lack of credibility, and also not really valid to state "in the face of evidence to the contrary" when there doesn't appear to be any such evidence.

The club do enough wrong without adding to that list unfairly.

 
Re: ST sales
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
17 May, 2017 14:43
Just looking up statbunker and theses are the figures from there
2012-13 7,266
2013-14 6,384
2014-15 6,660
2015-16 6,152
2016-17 5,648

The last figure is obviously wrong as it only includes eight games, presumably missing the last three.

Going further back, from when Aviva 'took over', we have
2010-11 8,248
2011-12 8,128

The general trend has been as ale says. On the other hand, the figures that Ale gives, while they may be correct to league games, only tell part of the story. Over all games played over the season Saturdays and Sundays are about the same with Fridays about 900 less. In terms of league attendance there were only two on a Saturday, Leicester and Bath. One would expect the Leicester game to be one of the best supported whenever it was played. Bath was, of course, the last game of the season which has often tended to be the best supported game of each season. The other game was Scarlets in January which drew 4,275, the second lowest gate of the season, I believe.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17/05/2017 15:08 by DaveAitch.

 
Re: ST sales
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
17 May, 2017 15:01
Unfortunately, Shafesbury, as you say, and I have previously said the figures aren't that easy to find. I'm pretty sure that it was easier a few years back, especially on the club website. I just wonder why that would be. The Avaiva website was easier to negotiate around than it is now. In fact much of what is freely and easily available about football clubs and players is hidden by the rugby people, heaven knows why. If you look at the figures and properly analyse them you will see why I say that league figures don't tell the whole story: Saturday league games this season just gone average 7,900 or so. Add in cup games average 6,600 give or take a few, I haven't the time to check exact figures at the moment.

 
Re: ST sales
hilly07 (IP Logged)
17 May, 2017 15:34
if you want stats this site is your friend...

[rugby.statbunker.com]

 
Re: ST sales
shaftesbury shark (IP Logged)
17 May, 2017 15:53
Dave Aitch, yes, agree the picture s complex, match days and KO time, opposition are all factors that impact this and make it difficult to draw any clear conclusions from the limited data I could find.

All I am saying is that it is not obvious (or a "fact") that the attendances are decreasing, and that the club are pulling a fast one, and therefore that it is not fair to imply this.

 
Re: ST sales
shaftesbury shark (IP Logged)
17 May, 2017 15:59
Hilly, thanks for the link.

As Dave Aitch said, not sure what has happened with the current premiership season data, but can at least find the LV Cup attendances there:


LV Cup
12/13 = 3,119
13/14 = 3,517
14/15 = 3,912
15/16 = no tournament (WC)
16/17 = 5,083

So no decreasing trend there either. In fact, rather the opposite.

 
Re: ST sales
shaftesbury shark (IP Logged)
17 May, 2017 16:22
OK I have the Euro data too.

No obvious trend there either, I suspect with the small sample sizes this data is very dependent on who the opposition are i.e. it was busy for Munster in 14/15, Scarlets dead rubber in 16/17 was not so popular.


Heineken / Champions Cup
12/13 = 7,025
13/14 = n/a
14/15 = 7,680
15/16 = n/a
16/17 = 6,612

Challenge Cup
12/13 = n/a
13/14 = 3,630
14/15 = n/a
15/16 = 4,182
16/17 = n/a


But I still don't see any downward trend.

 
Re: ST sales
PFSShark (IP Logged)
17 May, 2017 16:37
Whilst I'm not always the positive of posters I think that analysing figures to death to try and prove that crowds are declining is of little value.I think that all can agree that the crowds are flat lining and need to increase.In the circumstances a bit of positivity from the club is no big deal.

 
Re: ST sales
iBozz (IP Logged)
17 May, 2017 18:21
Quote:
Mark Twain's Autobiography: The Chapters from the North American Review.

Figures often beguile me, particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

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You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. RiP

Please help medical research by Folding@Home and join Swanny's Irregulars - PM me for details. Please!


South Stand with The New Birtles Faithful.

 
Re: ST sales
Grumpy Old Shark (IP Logged)
17 May, 2017 19:41
Perhaps it's just me but I think that the clubs press release referred to season ticket sales

The figures gown would appear to be average attendances

Whilst I'm sure that the club would like to convert increases in ST sales into increases in overall attendance, that is not necessarily the case as the non st sales are totally independent.

If anything, if st sales are higher, and the most desirable seats have gone, casual punters may be less likely to buy.

 
Re: ST sales
JimJam350 (IP Logged)
17 May, 2017 19:44
Quote:
hilly07
if you want stats this site is your friend...
[rugby.statbunker.com]

It really isn't.

 
Re: ST sales
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
17 May, 2017 20:00
Shaftsbury I didn't provide the last figure, as i am sure you are aware, (it's ale sharks).

It also isn't from the same source and we should remember the equivalent one is only likely to be available from March 2018 when this season's accounts are published.

My point remains that one has to compare 'like with like' before criticizing others.
Comparing (overall) attendance trends with Premiership attendances is comparing chalk with cheese.


Your figures mostly tend to explain why Sale Sharks have introduced differential pricing!

Daveaitch's stats tend to suggest and confirm the overall trend is downwards but is also incomplete.

Don't your figures and conclusions ignore the massive effect of having two home games in the LV as opposed to one in previous seasons? If thats correct the attendance per LV game was much lower.....

The figures for the minor competitions don't really have any clear trend as they are based on a very low, varying number, of games each year.

I would suggest total attendances/average attendance for all games in all competitions each season declared by the club, gives you the best view of "attendance trends".

According to the club's own figures over the period since we won the Premiership our total attendances have reduced by over 60,000 or 39.7% , although there may have seen a far smaller rise of up to 7,000 or 10% in the last 1-3 seasons.

Get those two missing figures off the accounts and we will see whether it's over 1, 2 or 3 seasons.

I personally suspect that it is only these last 2 seasons that the downward trend has actually started to end, perhaps as a result of the world cup rather than anything else.

We still have a long way to go to get back to even our last year at EP in terms of attendance!
There is cause for optimism for the future but that optimisim is way off being realized until we get back to our starting attedances at the AJB, and don't suffer consequential traffic problems!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17/05/2017 20:13 by H's Dad....

 
Re: ST sales
shaftesbury shark (IP Logged)
17 May, 2017 20:15
I give up.
I think you miss the point entirely.
I am only considering AJ Bell attendances as I think EP is not relevant to any discussion of trends.
The LV games are mean values so no, it doesn't matter how many games are included. That is what a mean is.
I agree it is difficult to identify trends, that is my whole point! i.e. The data does not support the conclusion that attendances are decreasing as was stated earlier.
Regardless, I will just have to agree to disagree, I don't agree with what you write, or how you present your theories as absolute facts. But I am clearly not able to explain in a way you can understand so I will leave it here.

 
Re: ST sales
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
17 May, 2017 20:41
Was aleshark only considering AJB attendances? It was his post that you belittled!

I tend to think he could have been looking over a longer period so was reluctant to point out he may be incorrect in his assertion of continued falling attednances, if only quite recently!
The club were certainly prone to indicating 'record renewal responses' back in Edgeley!

The club's own annual financial statements clearly state attendances have been falling each year over the whole period bar one year that I have copies of (7 years). (albeit I don't have the last 2 years accounts) That is the most appropriate evidence. It is the club's own figures.
In what way is that not a downwards trend?
Where is the equivalent evidence changing that trend for the last two most recent past seasons?
We need that before criticizing ale shark!

ie. we both think it has reversed, but we need to see the overall totals or average numbers for all games (and number of games) as evidence of that.
That would constitute proof perfect!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 17/05/2017 21:24 by H's Dad....

 
Re: ST sales
ale shark (IP Logged)
17 May, 2017 21:39
Yeah, sorry if my post further up has led to this bickering. It was just a throwaway remark based on what many generally accept to be the overall trend since our arrival at the AJB, I admit that I had absolutely nothing whatsoever to back up that remark.

The decline appears to have been arrested this season (based on the figures I subsequently provided), largely thanks to the number of weekend games and the bumper crowd who turned up to watch Toulon.

It does slightly surprise me that record numbers have already paid up given that we’re going to be playing on any day from Thursday to Sunday but I guess that’s a promising measure of the unwavering support that the club has garnered over the years.

 
Re: ST sales
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
18 May, 2017 07:37
That's the important thing; by increasing the differential between season tickets and match day prices the club appear to have found a way to boost season ticket sales.
Something we can all agree on.
The shortened season of the world cup year will have affected total attendances in one of the relevant recent years, making it more difficult to evaluate and analyse.
Longer term trends are still of great concern but there is distinct hope for the future.

 
Re: ST sales
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
18 May, 2017 13:32
A successful England in the World Cup might have produced such a feel good factor that average attendances increased with even total attendances increasing as well. It wasn't to be, so the fact that there were less games meant less in total. How much effect the World Cup had on Premiership average attendances is another part of the equation, but must remain in the 'who knows' column.

PFS, I said earlier (in this thread?) that positivity is fine, it's hype without substance that isn't.

 
Re: ST sales
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
18 May, 2017 15:25
..unless it's from the club, when it's to be expected....(Sm6)
With no lower priced early bird STH renewal fee deadline it's no wonder sales are higher slightly later in the year.

 
Re: ST sales
PFSShark (IP Logged)
18 May, 2017 16:20
Dave,

Wouldn't disagree.However in this instance the thread wasn't started by the club and I haven't seen any hype from the club.


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