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Gatland to call up 5 more players
BasilBullneck (IP Logged)
16 June, 2017 10:32
BBC reporting he needs additional cover so players are not required to play twice in a week.

Injuries to Farrell and Lawes; Hogg out of tour. Therefore why 5? And who will they be?

If Lawes is crocked, then surely Launchbury must receive a call up. BBC reporting Gray may be a candidate, but not o a par with Launchbury. Will Brown get the call? What about Finn Russell? I think they could do with another Number 8, if Stander and Faletau are to be in the test match squad. Does that open the door for Strauss?

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
ale shark (IP Logged)
16 June, 2017 10:40
I imagine it'll be middle of the road Welsh players who are already touring in NZ. Realistically itís unlikely anyone external will force their way into the test squad (although itís happened many times before), it's more like ballast for the midweek team, heís pretty much said that in the BBC article. Iíd expect 5 Welshmen, expertly coached by Howley.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
MartWhit (IP Logged)
16 June, 2017 10:58
once the test start, he wont want test 23 players havign to play midweek.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
MikeGC (IP Logged)
16 June, 2017 13:21
Maybe it's just me, but I don't like this Lions 'reinforcements' idea one bit. 41 man squad isn't big enough - are you kidding ?
The Schedule is a joke, and will cripple them for future if not sorted. Instead Lions shirts will be handed out like confetti. Doesn't feel right at all.

That's pretty much what Alistair Eykyn has tweeted and I agree

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
16 June, 2017 14:13
Are your two statements not contradictory Mike GC?
Its perfectly possible to have two completely different matchday squads if you have 46 fit touring players. Bench players in each squad able to step up to start a few days later if required. There's very little difference between the abilities of the two Lions matchday squads as befits the similar quality of opposition for each and every game.
Playing a full part in either match is an incredibly intense exhausting experience. Adding to the squad is a pragmaticreflection of / response to that and helps ameliorate it's effects.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 16/06/2017 14:18 by H's Dad....

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
MartWhit (IP Logged)
16 June, 2017 15:32
either you need the reinforcements, or tyou change the schedule. But since the schedule is fixed, you need the reinforcements.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
16 June, 2017 19:16
Quote:
MartWhit
either you need the reinforcements, or tyou change the schedule. But since the schedule is fixed, you need the reinforcements.
Why five reinforcements when only three are injured? The management knew the scedule before setting off. It should have been realised that it, the scedule, was too taxing for just 41 and taken more players from the start. In fact the first choice fifteens of England, Ireland and Wales could have been selected and made the total up to the necessary 46 with someone from Scotland.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 16/06/2017 19:25 by DaveAitch.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
ale shark (IP Logged)
17 June, 2017 06:09
"Welsh quartet Kristian Dacey, Tomas Francis, Cory Hill and Gareth Davies have been called up to the Lions squad"

An insult to the jersey.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
Irish_Shark (IP Logged)
17 June, 2017 06:48
Quote:
ale shark
"Welsh quartet Kristian Dacey, Tomas Francis, Cory Hill and Gareth Davies have been called up to the Lions squad"
An insult to the jersey.
I had to Google hill and dacey. The fact that Wales played on a Friday night vs tonga ment they had more recovery time if they were picked on the bench vs chiefs

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
17 June, 2017 06:50
Apparently two from Scotland will join after the game against Australia. They are thought to be fly-half Finn Russell and prop Alan Dell.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
17 June, 2017 06:51
Moriarty out of tour.



https://c8.staticflickr.com/9/8657/27965002623_47115a2ac7_t.jpg

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
Yareet (IP Logged)
17 June, 2017 08:41
Quote:
Irish_Shark
Quote:
ale shark
"Welsh quartet Kristian Dacey, Tomas Francis, Cory Hill and Gareth Davies have been called up to the Lions squad"
An insult to the jersey.
I had to Google hill and dacey. The fact that Wales played on a Friday night vs tonga ment they had more recovery time if they were picked on the bench vs chiefs

That may be true but would they therefore be better than the other options available? I'm not sure

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
17 June, 2017 22:33
Further welsh call-up:-

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCgvFmZXgAAFQlX.jpg



https://c8.staticflickr.com/9/8657/27965002623_47115a2ac7_t.jpg

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
18 June, 2017 06:51
Was apparently discussed before leaving Britain that players nearby would be more likely to get a call up as they could "hit the ground running" trouble is no matter how soon these guys start running they are never going to catch up the rest of the squad because they simply aren't good enough. I find it hard to believe that any of them (possibly Russel) were discussed as potential tourists.

Joe Launchbury could walk down the plane exit steps straight onto the pitch and out perform a rested Corey Hill. But then Launchbury was never going to get the call as he could oust Wyn Jones from the test squad rather than be ecstatic to be mid week canon fodder.



There is far too much talk about good ball and bad ball. In my opinion, good ball is when you have possession and bad ball is when the opposition have it." - R.I.P. Dickie Jeeps 25/11/1931 - 08/10/2016

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
Chris1850 (IP Logged)
18 June, 2017 10:09
Problem is that Launchbury is not a lineout operator and the Lions need cover for Lawes primarily. Otherwise I agree that Launchbury was unlucky in the original tour selection.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
emerging shark (IP Logged)
18 June, 2017 16:42
This is complete rollocks, smells of being pre arranged...The only one I don't have a problem with is Russell.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
BasilBullneck (IP Logged)
19 June, 2017 11:46
Should be good training for the Wales B team next year.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
Prop at Work (IP Logged)
19 June, 2017 11:58
All time caps for England (top 10)

1 114 Jason Leonard
2 91 Jonny Wilkinson
3 86 Dylan Hartley
4 85 Rory Underwood
= 85 Lawrence Dallaglio
6 84 Martin Johnson
7 78 Joe Worsley
8 77 Matt Dawson
9 75 Mike Catt
= 75 Mike Tindall
= 75 James Haskell

Hartley is the only one on this list who is not a Lion. Kristian Dacey, however, is now a Lion in his place. Total joke. Shirt devalued. No longer the best of the best.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
MartWhit (IP Logged)
19 June, 2017 12:09
The fact that Stephen Jones in the Times is 100% in agreement with Gatland is enough for me to be totally opposed.

It does devalue the jersey because as others have said, the squad in no longer the best of the best.

The timing of the callups is sound. A larger squad to begin with would have made it impossible to give each player a fair chance to earn a test place, and fairness is the other key component of any successful Lions tour. But beyond that, you have to call up the next in line, even if it involves pulling players a few days early from an overseas test.

I mean, there is no way on earth that Corey hill could lace the boots of Launchbury or either of the Gray brothers, or even Luke Charteris or Devin Toner. Pick your lineout options from that lot.

Similarly, Ross for and Hartley are streets ahead as hookers, with relevant experience to boot.

It doesnt wash with me that they'll only be midweek bench sitters. Theres no such thing on a Lions tour surely? Its an honour to do whatever is required and keep the momentum of the tour going, even if it is on a damp tuesday.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
Surbiton Shark (IP Logged)
19 June, 2017 13:30
I kinda see both points of view, on the last tour we called up Shane Williams and Wade for mid week coverage - the difference here was I had heard of Shane/Wade - I hadn't heard of the Welsh guys (bar the scrum half)

I didn't read it however was told about an article over the weekend questioning whether this should be the end of the mid-week tour games which does have some sense to it in this day and age.

Be more like a cricket test series - pre test warm up games (well how it used to be) and when the test series starts there is basically nothing in between tests - it's definitely food for thought

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
thekeg (IP Logged)
19 June, 2017 13:41
Would launchbury and Hartley rather be taken over to NZ for 2 weeks to be bench cover and tackle bag holders with absolutely no chance of being anything more or stay in Argentina and play in the second test of a really good series? Not sure that being called up for the lions in these circumstances would feel like much of an honour.....

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
19 June, 2017 14:27
The current schedule is almost that Surbiton, only the Hurricanes game after first test, then 2 more tests.


Hartley and Launchbury wouldn't just be bag holders because they are good enough not to be. I reckon if you asked them they would have your hand off for a ticket to NZ.



There is far too much talk about good ball and bad ball. In my opinion, good ball is when you have possession and bad ball is when the opposition have it." - R.I.P. Dickie Jeeps 25/11/1931 - 08/10/2016

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
MartWhit (IP Logged)
19 June, 2017 14:59
I agree with Poynton.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
Surbiton Shark (IP Logged)
19 June, 2017 15:01
Quote:
PoyntonShark
The current schedule is almost that Surbiton, only the Hurricanes game after first test, then 2 more tests.

Hartley and Launchbury wouldn't just be bag holders because they are good enough not to be. I reckon if you asked them they would have your hand off for a ticket to NZ.

Thanks Poynton - I didn't know that.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
BasilBullneck (IP Logged)
19 June, 2017 15:03
History of the Lions is full of players taking the opportunity to play in front of the original favourites - Davies instead of O'Driscoll in the last tour; the front row in the '97 tour. You'd be a braver man than me to tell Hartley and Launchbury that they were there just to clean boots. They'd be tearing up trees to get into the 23 for the Second and Third tests, let alone the first Test. moreover, they would give a better standard of opposition in the training sessions for the test squad if they weren't picked.

For me, these current additions on the basis of geography are wrong on all counts. Should have gone with the best available.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
19 June, 2017 16:58
Quote:
thekeg
Would launchbury and Hartley rather be taken over to NZ for 2 weeks to be bench cover and tackle bag holders with absolutely no chance of being anything more or stay in Argentina and play in the second test of a really good series? Not sure that being called up for the lions in these circumstances would feel like much of an honour.....
If it isn't much of an honour, then it's no honour at all.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
thekeg (IP Logged)
19 June, 2017 18:15
But the point is that gatland has clearly identified them as pure back up players, they aren't being brought in as injury cover, it's purely to ensure the test squad aren't playing in either of the midweek games left. So it's lot really a proper call up......whether you agree with the tactic or not his intention is clear and I think it's open to debate what the players would prefer

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
Yareet (IP Logged)
19 June, 2017 20:05
It may be because they haven't played yet but none of the new boys have Lions cap numbers... [www.lionsrugby.com]

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
ale shark (IP Logged)
19 June, 2017 20:20
Well these charlatans have their own profiles on the official 2017 squad page, complete with red jerseys on, so if anyone is in the slightest bit interested in what Cory Hill and Kristian Dacey look like then they're here. Think of Jim Telferís Everest speech then take a good look at these imposters. Having followed a full a Lions tour (2001) it makes me feel quite sad.

[www.lionsrugby.com]

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
ageinghoody (IP Logged)
19 June, 2017 22:34
Quote:
ale shark
Well these charlatans have their own profiles on the official 2017 squad page, complete with red jerseys on, so if anyone is in the slightest bit interested in what Cory Hill and Kristian Dacey look like then they're here. Think of Jim Telferís Everest speech then take a good look at these imposters. Having followed a full a Lions tour (2001) it makes me feel quite sad.
[www.lionsrugby.com]

It's appallingly mean-spirited to impugn the players themselves in that fashion!

They have been selected by the person authorised to do so, and so neither of the vicious personal slurs you've chosen are accurate. Would you have chosen the same terminology if say a Curry or Solomona had been nearby and called up?
Or do you think that decent, well-mannered Sale boys would have declined? "Thank you Mr. Gatland but no. There are more deserving candidates than me!"

If you really think that, then I'd like to try some of that ale!

Gatland's course of action is clearly deplorable, but put the blame on him where it belongs rather than just lashing out for the sake of being gratuitously hurtful.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
ale shark (IP Logged)
19 June, 2017 22:53
I'm not blaming them but the management have said they're leaving the tour party after the game so why do a photo shoot and parade them as Lions? They're not.

Curry or Solomona haven't been called up, if they had there's a vague argument they'd be there on merit, there clearly isn't with these fellas. As far as I'm aware they don't have either club form or international form. By all accounts most Welsh rugby fans haven't heard of them either. Some pundits put Denny forward as a wildcard pick back in April.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
20 June, 2017 02:19
Still no reason to have a pop at the players personally. I agree with most of your sentiment, but it's not those players' fault. If Gatland phoned me today and asked me to cover at prop, my reaction would be Cian who?, I'm on my way boss.

If they are not to be 'Lions' then there was surely no need for any announcement, they would just be staff helping out with training, They are all named on the bench for today's game so assume they will get their cap number if they take part.



There is far too much talk about good ball and bad ball. In my opinion, good ball is when you have possession and bad ball is when the opposition have it." - R.I.P. Dickie Jeeps 25/11/1931 - 08/10/2016

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
ale shark (IP Logged)
20 June, 2017 06:53
Thatís an absurd comparison though, but no more than their call-up. I've got no idea what level you currently play at but if Gatland asked you to prop for the Lions Iíd imagine you'd end up with debilitating neck and spinal injuries after 20 minutes.

Anyway, let hope I have humble pie for my elevenses and they play starring roles in a match winning team performance and that they go on to have long and illustrious international careers and that the Lions win the test series without picking up any further injuries which would require further squad cover. Iím happy to lay me vitriol aside and reserve further judgement on Gatland until after heís masterminded a series win.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
20 June, 2017 07:12
Fwiw I think Launchbury & co. have played enough big games this season.



https://c8.staticflickr.com/9/8657/27965002623_47115a2ac7_t.jpg

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
20 June, 2017 07:31
Quote:
thekeg
But the point is that gatland has clearly identified them as pure back up players, they aren't being brought in as injury cover, it's purely to ensure the test squad aren't playing in either of the midweek games left. So it's lot really a proper call up......whether you agree with the tactic or not his intention is clear and I think it's open to debate what the players would prefer

Gatland said early on that he didn't want to do what happened on a previous Lions tour when players were told who was the A team. By a rather sly means he has done just that. I bet he feared, as someone mentioned above, that Launchbury would come in and displace one of his favourites.

the keg, would you not want to have "Lion" on you CV, rather than just "International"?

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
thekeg (IP Logged)
20 June, 2017 10:40
My point is that it wouldn't perhaps mean as much if you knew you were just being pulled in to make up the numbers in the way these players clearly are, it's not the same as being s genuine replacement like Haskell.

I'm not saying I know the answer, merely that playing in s proper test match in Argentina might be preferable to the role these 6 players have been assigned, but you are right that being able to say you were a lion is part of the counter argument....

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
20 June, 2017 11:11
Just to be clear aleshark, although I think perhaps you are. I have no problem with your vitriol for Gatland, he deserves all he gets for this farce, I just think anger at the players involved is mis-placed.

I suppose I should take exception to your doubts of my propping prowess, but as my current playing level is strictly armchair (though I am good at it) and I have never propped up more than a bar (though quite a few of those) and even then I always fall over first, then I should accept that the notion is even more absurd than the selection of 'The Temporary 5' ( I quite like Finn Russel)



There is far too much talk about good ball and bad ball. In my opinion, good ball is when you have possession and bad ball is when the opposition have it." - R.I.P. Dickie Jeeps 25/11/1931 - 08/10/2016

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
emerging shark (IP Logged)
20 June, 2017 18:27
Ironically it was only Nell who appeared this morning and put up a good show in the short time he was on the field. I got the feeling that Gatland was feeling the pressure about this. Why then when the match was done and dusted did he not throw on the rest of the bench? I felt sure that Russell would replace and protect Biggar...

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
thekeg (IP Logged)
20 June, 2017 20:24
Quote:
emerging shark
Ironically it was only Nell who appeared this morning and put up a good show in the short time he was on the field. I got the feeling that Gatland was feeling the pressure about this. Why then when the match was done and dusted did he not throw on the rest of the bench? I felt sure that Russell would replace and protect Biggar...

That's the whole point isn't it? They are just emergency cover....

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
20 June, 2017 20:46
Pragmatism by Gatland, nothing more. It really should have been planned more meticulously with a few more selected on merit originally, given the arduous nature of the schedule, but then perhaps one or two perm Wales, Scotland and England might not have done quite so well results wise on their tours.
All the rest is hot air. No-one will really count them as more than 'injury-cover' Lions who barely contributed.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
thekeg (IP Logged)
20 June, 2017 20:54
More on the overall tour would also mean more pressure to play everyone in the early games and therefore less chance to pull a test side together.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
20 June, 2017 21:05
Gatland is paid a lot of money to take pressure and not change his fundamental approach because of it or to pander to some romantic notion of "fairness".

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
thekeg (IP Logged)
20 June, 2017 21:13
But there's a balance isn't there? You don't want to have a group of players out there for 3/4 weeks not playing. At least this way they are there for a couple of weeks for specific purpose

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
20 June, 2017 21:20
thekeg, I take your point about being there just to make up the numbers is not the same as being selected on merit with a fair chance of making the test team, at least on the bench. That's the problem though, isn't it. The value of the shirt is well and truly devalued as a consequence.

As regards the other countries, they all knew a Lions journey was on. England did very well with 30 senior players missing one way or another. I'm not sure it would have mattered even if another two or three had gone to the Lions a week ago. I suspect Eddie Jones would have relished the challenge and the players drafted in would have relished even more.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
Bull Shark (IP Logged)
20 June, 2017 21:34
Andy Nicol was leading a supporters tour in 2001 and by all accounts had partaken in plenty of drinking when he ended up on the bench for the 3rd test.
Shane Williams was called up for 3 days only in 2013 when he had already retired from international rugby just for 1 game to keep test players away from the last mid week game. Tom Court also in 2013 played 20 mins, his call up owing to the fact he was already in Oz on holiday
Strange call ups are nothing new.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
20 June, 2017 21:49
In this tour there have been almost as many injuries during training as during games....it's all very, very intense!
IMHO two international intensity games during one week is too much for any player.
Front row pack players often play barely more than half a match, several backs have been injured on the training pitch. Attrition rates are higher especially amongst exhausted players.
I therefore don't think 46 is too many as this tour is generally acknowledged as the most intense Lions schedule ever planned.
The initial principle of the possibility two separate matchday 23's makes a lot of sense.

Far better to have had Ford/Russel, Launchbury/Jonny Gray/Donnacha Ryan, Hartley/Watson/Barclay , Rob Evans/Tomas Francis/Nel, and Scott Williams/Ringrose on the plane from the outset, rather than the current controversial emergency pragmatic late draft selections.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 20/06/2017 22:00 by H's Dad....

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
20 June, 2017 21:50
Well, two of those calls were from Gatland.
Edit - this refers to Bull's post.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 20/06/2017 21:52 by DaveAitch.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
Bull Shark (IP Logged)
21 June, 2017 10:15
Quote:
DaveAitch
Well, two of those calls were from Gatland.
Edit - this refers to Bull's post.

They were indeed and they were also in something quite rare... a Lions winning team.

Woodward tried the separate mid week and test team idea with the test side not even travelling to see the mid week matches during the tests in 2005. That created the haves and have nots and is widely recognized as the most unhappy tour ever, with players openly questioning what was the point of their inclusion on tour.. and a 3-0 whitewash to boot.

In my opinion better to have a squad that all believe they can make the tests until late on and all building together, then call up a few replacements to make up the numbers late on rather than have those players feel like spare parts/ tackle bag holders for the duration of what is a long tour. Building team spirit is essential to a winning Lions tour. For the new arrivals there is now the rush of being a Lion and a part of the tour as opposed to being week 4 of realization they have very little to play for and the start of home sickness and wishing it was all over... as occurred 12 years ago.

The last tour to NZ 12 years ago included a mid week match between the 2nd a 3rd tests (Auckland Blues) something we haven't had since.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
ageinghoody (IP Logged)
21 June, 2017 13:23
Quote:
H's Dad...
...
I therefore don't think 46 is too many as this tour is generally acknowledged as the most intense Lions schedule ever planned...

I' m pretty sure I recall Gatland promising that everyone in the squad would get at least one start in the first three matches. So that's 45 maximum.

Whether it was wise to make that promise is another matter of course!

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
21 June, 2017 13:38
It's a meaningless promise as he couldn't really guarantee that no matter how many in the tour party: one early injury in training and that player probably wouldn't figure in one of those first 3 matches.....but 45 would have made that viable no matter.
The retrospectogram suggests he should have included a few more. I would be pretty naffed off if I had come close but a less able, less experienced player was preferred to step in as emergency cover merely because he was in the same time zone...

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
ageinghoody (IP Logged)
21 June, 2017 22:09
Quote:
H's Dad...
... I would be pretty naffed off if I had come close but a less able, less experienced player was preferred to step in as emergency cover merely because he was in the same time zone...

I can't disagree with that, but as mentioned above, it's far from the first time it's happened. It's the fact it's five or six players rather than one or two that seems to have raised hackles.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
22 June, 2017 01:47
Thinks that's spot on ageinghoody. The odd replacement like for like in an emergency situation makes some sense to take someone nearby, it also helps if they are actually good enough. Nicol could be argued to have sufficient quality at the time, alcohol related impediment not withstanding. Shane Williams was obviously of requisite quality having toured twice previously (not having played for 2 years won't have helped though). Tom Court perhaps not so but one for one emergency replacement, usually not happening until someone is forced out of the tour. We have had 2 forced home but called up 6 replacements.
There are also plenty of examples of the replacements being called from much farther afield Martin Corry made an impact in Oz in 2001 having being called from England's tour in North America.



There is far too much talk about good ball and bad ball. In my opinion, good ball is when you have possession and bad ball is when the opposition have it." - R.I.P. Dickie Jeeps 25/11/1931 - 08/10/2016

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
23 June, 2017 18:36
No, it's not the first time it has happened. I do recall some raised eyebrows when Shane Williams was drafted in, but at least he knew what it was all about. The difference this time is that several players have come in at the same time and it seems to have been pre-planned rather than a somewhat necessary response to a situation that had suddenly arisen.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
ale shark (IP Logged)
27 June, 2017 10:51
Well that was a worthwhile trip wasn't it. Total shambles.

Feel sorry for the starting XVís, looking to push for a test place but have to play 80mins with 4 days to recover and slot in the test squad, madness. Hope a few of them get a good run out in the 3rd Test.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
BasilBullneck (IP Logged)
27 June, 2017 11:13
Talk about confusing signals from gatland! He brings in 6 replacements and bar two brief cameo appearances he doesn't feel it appropriate to use any of the replacements and instead he loses the benefit of fresh legs on the pitch. Why bring them if you are not going to use them at all? either they are good enough to be Lions (which presumably he believed was the case) or they are not, in which case get someone who is good enough.

On a separate note, did anyone in the game against the Hurricanes put forward a case for inclusion in the Test 23? Scrum faltered badly once and certainly wasn't dominant, so I can't see any of the front row getting in. Stander didn't make anything like the ground his opponents did - too upright too often today. Tipuric was like a rash but was blown off the ball at the breakdown a lot (unlike Cane on Saturday); both locks played well, but can you really leave Kruis out? Otherwise I thought North put his hand up, and Halfpenny played well.

On that basis, it is only at lock where I could see changes being made and possibly blindside. I do wonder if the second row should be Kruis and Lawes with Itoje at 6.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
clutch (IP Logged)
27 June, 2017 11:34
I think Kruis is somewhat overrated. I still believe the best second row was arguably left to play against Argentina. O'Mahony cannot start. He's just not a lions starting player, let alone a captain. You would assume that Warburton would start, but I would love both Lawed and Itoje to both start.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
emerging shark (IP Logged)
27 June, 2017 11:58
On a separate note, did anyone in the game against the Hurricanes put forward a case for inclusion in the Test 23?
Henderson in my opinion..
Absolutely ridiculous this morning... several players were out on their feet towards the end and I just cannot understand why he did not use the bench? almost lost that match because of it.. imho...surely he had to protect Biggar towards the end! what if Sexton or Farrell get injured?

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
ale shark (IP Logged)
27 June, 2017 12:13
Only Lawes and Henderson looked like they could go into the test 23, maybe Tipuric. I really hope Lawes gets in the test time, for me Iotje and Lawes should start but I donít know where. Halfpenny will obviously be retained in the 23 but he was a late inclusion on the bench.

The backs were messed up by Payneís late withdrawal and Henderson's injury so they were pretty much all out of their selected position. Joseph was anonymous again. I know his selection was a bit political but Laidlaw is so slow at getting the ball out. Russell and that Welsh 9 should have been given some game time and retained for the rest of the tour.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
camshark (IP Logged)
27 June, 2017 12:21
The pack all put in a huge shift, but how often do Marler, Cole, Best and Haskell play an 80 minute game, they were all out on their feet, I would have expected a couple of them at least should have been replaced.
On form I'm not sure Kruis would be in my starting 23. Warburton has to return and skipper, and I think North if up for it could do damage from the bench.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
BasilBullneck (IP Logged)
27 June, 2017 13:11
I agree with ES and Camshark in that a lot of players looked clapped out at the end. It makes you wonder if the game is that much faster , harder and more physical than 2003 when England won the World Cup Final with extra time. Then, the players (accepting the bench was used) lasted 100 minutes, and yet here it is 80 minutes. It may be the end of the season but is it unreasonable for them to be fitter at that stage. Or is it the mental side of playing the AB's that fatigues them?

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
RugbyMarvel (IP Logged)
27 June, 2017 13:27
Hello Everyone,

First post from me. I'm a Sale fan who now works in London, huge rugby fan and trying to put my rambling thoughts down in a blog, where I'll be posting articles as and when work allows...

I have written a quick article on todays game;

[wordpress.com]

I have noticed that the moderators have previously asked for articles to keep the site going, and I will be more than happy to write some.

Hope you all enjoy the read. Its my first time writing anything like this really, as at work its all officious reports and paperwork.

I cover in it my views on the replacement use/lack of...

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
ale shark (IP Logged)
27 June, 2017 13:39
It's the pace of the game that the New Zealanders play which makes them so difficult to compete with over 80 mins. In pretty much every game on the tour we've seen a purple patch in the second half where they're untouchable. Laidlaw hasn't become a bad player overnight but against these guys it's a non-contest when it comes to quick ball and the Lions being on the back-foot.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
james46 (IP Logged)
27 June, 2017 13:43
You know this Launchbury fellow, he's quite good you know.

Far too many Welsh players on tour.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
emerging shark (IP Logged)
27 June, 2017 14:02
That link is simply to wordpress and requires a username and password RugbyMarvel. can you post the correct link.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
RugbyMarvel (IP Logged)
27 June, 2017 14:25
Thanks Emerging Shark...

[rugbymarvel.wordpress.com]

This should work!

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
Pappje Shark (IP Logged)
27 June, 2017 19:19
I see Garland has admitted he didn't empty the bench because of the furore over the selection of the late call-ups.

A complete farce and unfair on those who started today.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
Shep23 (IP Logged)
27 June, 2017 19:30
Quote:
Pappje Shark
I see Garland has admitted he didn't empty the bench because of the furore over the selection of the late call-ups.
A complete farce and unfair on those who started today.

Cutting off his nose to spite his face.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
emerging shark (IP Logged)
27 June, 2017 20:03
So much for Gatland being his own man and not bowing to media pressure! it was an utter farce as I have said earlier. As a matter of interest, when was the last time that you have seen a top rugby union match with only 2 replacements and the front row playing almost the full 80 minutes?
Russell would not have come on if Biggar had not have had to go off for a HIA as well.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
Irish_Shark (IP Logged)
27 June, 2017 20:09
Well looks like 4 of the 6 got the golden ticket for a Lions goody bag then!

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
28 June, 2017 07:26
I bet each of those players would have pulled his tripe out if brought on. As it is, the man who thought they were the best bet for a Lions call up has placed them firmly in the gash bin. Still, I suppose they have been useful cannon fodder in training. I think they will look on it as a noose rather than a goody bag. What has happened has been totally unfair on them.

It would be ironic if there were now a mass of injuries so he had to play them in the final match.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
emerging shark (IP Logged)
28 June, 2017 08:17
Doubt it, I suspect they are in the air as we type (except for Russell and the two props)

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
28 June, 2017 12:51
In that case it would be even more ironic if he had to fly players in from a different time zone.

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
28 June, 2017 18:05
those flown in from different time zones may have been good enough to wear the Lions' jersey in the remaining games eg Launchbury.



https://c8.staticflickr.com/9/8657/27965002623_47115a2ac7_t.jpg

 
Re: Gatland to call up 5 more players
RugbyMarvel (IP Logged)
28 June, 2017 18:22
[rugbymarvel.wordpress.com]

3 ways we might be able to beat the All Blacks.

Let's hope.

Disrupt. Destroy. Deprive.


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