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Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Surbiton Shark (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 00:23
Just got in from the match.

Needless to say a huge disappointment.

On another thread a poster wisely wrote that a win at Quins which was well within reach would see us challenging for top 6, a loss would be yet another season of mid/lower table stuff. I agreed with that and I had high hopes that an elusive away win was there for the taking.

Sadly the players didnít seem to agree, the first 20 mins were awful. I mentioned earlier in the season that we seemed to like playing fancy plays but didnít like the hard graft and doing the core basics. Some of the stuff we played in our own 22 was madness, the number of times we passed the ball to the grass was crazy, accuracy when it mattered just went straight out of the window and we hadnít knock on galore

Well done Quins, I thought Care really controllled the tempo and Smith continued to hugely impress for one so young.

Up until now ive been a big fan of AJ and backed his corner howver seeing us 2 tries down and AJ absolutely silent with Faf trying to gee us up was extremely disappointing so am happy for JOC to be our future 10. He did take control

Why canít we teach Ostrikov to catch a ball?

Another season of Ďrebuildingí. Very very disappointing.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
ballsout (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 00:54
Quote:
safc_shark
Quote:
ballsout
Will Flynn ever start a game for you guys?

Yes

Another zero minutes tonight. Must be pretty demoralising to constantly sit on the bench and get five or six minutes per game, at best.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Grumpy Old Shark (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 06:24
Quote:
Mrs Trellis of North Wales
Other sides seem to do their homework on us (cf Newcastle) but we don't seem to do so on them.

I rarely agree with Mrs T but 'they' have got it spot on.

Sadly, our attack is predictable as are the weaknesses in our defence.

Is it just a coincidence that both coaches are not from an RU background?

Do we employ an analyst to look at other teams? - Perhaps we need a new one....

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
07 October, 2017 07:36
Dimes says we need more psychologists not coaches and the team is given "leeway" in preparing away games.

[www.bbc.co.uk]



https://c8.staticflickr.com/9/8657/27965002623_47115a2ac7_t.jpg

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Irish_Shark (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 07:51
Quote:
Mrs Trellis of North Wales
Dimes says we need more psychologists not coaches and the team is given "leeway" in preparing away games.
[www.bbc.co.uk]

Well they better not be given anymore leeway in preparation as we gave quins leeway too.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Barend (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 08:24
I've not read the above interview with Diamond's reactions, but I may not have to....

- out-enthused?
- boys are really disappointed?
- strip it back to basics this week?

Heard it all before.

A telling stat from Russ Petty on Twitter - brace yoursevles, they're quite appalling:

"Sale conceded 133 points in 3 away games this season. 359 conceded in 10 away games since beating Bristol last season"

"Sale in 1st half this season -down by 17,14,20 away, up by 3,24,19 at home"

"Sale won 2/52 away games v top6 teams since 2008-9, 2/29 away games v top10 teams since 2014-15"


That suggests to me that it is more than just simply playing ability.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Surbiton Shark (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 08:35
I agree with Dimes on his last comment

'"Without mentioning any names, one or two of our players didn't have the best games. For Harlequins, Joe Marler, Chris Robshaw and Danny Care all played well and when your senior players play well you can expect to win."'

It's been said for some time we need more 'leaders on the field' when we were down after 15 mins only Faf was trying to gee up everyone else who mainly made stood in silence. Sam James in the second half seemed to get more involved trying to get us all more motivated. I guess we still really miss this side of the game from the likes of Braid and Sam T

As an aside, Marler (like or loath him) is a funny character - when we scored he started joining in the Sale chant!

Back to the drawing board for the lads on Monday.....might start with only one side on Friday turned up who looked up for it from the off and played with desire to win. What do we need to change to get mentally switched on every time we take the pitch?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2017 08:50 by Surbiton Shark.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
07 October, 2017 08:46
You'd better read it then.



https://c8.staticflickr.com/9/8657/27965002623_47115a2ac7_t.jpg

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
HaleShark (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 08:50
[quote C3Q]We do seem to have some sort of hang up playing away from home. It's easy from my arm chair but we should perhaps try to starve the home team of possession and territory in the early stages. It would also allow us to settle and find our feet before half time./quote]

My thought too. In fact when Faf was interviewed before the match his opinion was the the game would be tight in the first 20 minutes. Well I guess he wasn't listening to the team brief (which reflected in his own poor performance last night) because I don't think we were lethargic like Dimes says, we tried to play expansive rugby when we should be clever and play it tight and get the home side under pressure.

I don't like the idea of players given leeway for away game prep. that tactic obviously doesn't work when your last away win was at Bristol. I would agree with him that we need a psychologist because I've said this last season, we have a mental block in playing away from home. That's a difficult monkey to get off your back.

Going back to players preparing for away games, would it be fair to say Dimes' time is far too thinly spread at the club?? recent example, Dimes' was prepared to come to a supporters meeting to discuss match-day issues, whilst that's admirable for a D.o.R. I can't see Dai Young or Mark McCall doing the same.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Pappje Shark (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 09:06
Quote:
Mrs Trellis of North Wales
Dimes says we need more psychologists not coaches and the team is given "leeway" in preparing away games.
[www.bbc.co.uk]

Talking of anonymous performances, the BBC report doesn't even acknowledge that Neild came on the pitch in the mass substitution. (More of a lame joke than a reflection on him).

I'm still not sure why Strauss was slung so early, unless it was an admission that the game was gone and to give the bench playing time. The overall impression was that we were tactically picked apart and compounded it with some silly errors - perhaps believing our own hype after last week?

Our first XV looks strong and the bench has some depth but perhaps it is time for a bit of rotation to freshen things up. We might not be suffering from injuries like other teams but a number of core players playing so many minutes must mount up eventually.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
07 October, 2017 09:21
Re injuries. I don't think we'll be seeing Beaumont for a while. It looked like shoulder trouble again and his morose attitude spoke volumes.

Agree about Strauss - he made some hard yards for a change. Curry & Ross were ineffective against a big back row but you can't call him "a senior player".

Glaws made the same silly errors last week we made this week.

I thought the ref poor , in typical homer style he picked up Sale's offences but not Quins' - particularly the high tackles.

If you watch the handbags again you'll see McGuigan carded but a Quins player grabs Ross around the neck and escapes punishment - not that it mattered at that stage.



https://c8.staticflickr.com/9/8657/27965002623_47115a2ac7_t.jpg

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
james46 (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 10:05
What a mixed bag.

Good points; the starting team line-out seems sorted and we do have a hooker who can throw. When we get our act together we can score lots of tries, however it takes 30 - 50 minutes it seems. Our back three keep digging us out of the smelly stuff. Starting 8 was very good and made the hard yards.

Not so good; 6 / 7 look poor today, Ross had a bad match and looked outclassed against a fairly average back row. Yes Curry tackles, but what else does he do? Apart from his try, James struggled. Our 10 was simply ineffective most of the match and completely outshone by an 18 year old. We were so slow off the line and didn't defend deep, basics.

I would think of another 6, maybe Neild? We clearly need another 9 when Faf is having a brain fart.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
MartWhit (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 10:14
That interview is another in a growing line of buck passing from Dimes. Whether he gives leeway or not is his choice, his responsibility. He cant hang the players out to dry for his own poor choices.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Olyy (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 10:35
If Beaumont is injured then that leaves us with three locks in the entire squad, one of whom is (realistically) a blindside, and another who has had concussion issues this season so another knock could spell a long spell on the sidelines.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2017 10:38 by Olyy.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
M5 Shark (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 10:40
The team are not prepared for away games. This is the responsibility of the DOR, he needs to accepts this. At this stage I would suggest the recruitment of Dr Steve Peters rather than a top class centre. He is renowned in his field of sports psychology and i would advise Dimes that a read of his book over the next two days may help him understand the Chimp Paradox.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
ashtonshark (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 10:44
Quote:
M5 Shark
The team are not prepared for away games. This is the responsibility of the DOR, he needs to accepts this. At this stage I would suggest the recruitment of Dr Steve Peters rather than a top class centre. He is renowned in his field of sports psychology and i would advise Dimes that a read of his book over the next two days may help him understand the Chimp Paradox.

Can he play in the 2nd row as well?

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Pappje Shark (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 10:45
Nah, we're at home first - a result of sorts.

I wonder if the Currys aren't hampered by the new ruck laws, given the response seems to be for there to be very little competition over the ball now. Whereas they burst onto the scene by nabbing 5,6 or 7 turnovers a game.

The biggest disappointment is the comedown from last week. Tarus having one bad half against Marler doesn't undo his good work to date and I suspect if his English was native, he'd have been chirping back against him as Marler worked on Carley. Perhaps a bit too confident after last week as well - certainly it didn't seem as if Ross H had to try for the offload that led to their first try, which was but one of our errors compared to the Gloucester game.

EJ tried using Solomona to defend the 10 channel vs Argentina - we tried it here, and Care had the nous to spot it and then chip against Faf on the wing. A bit of tweaking needed for that one methinks.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
PFSShark (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 10:49
[quote HaleShark][quote C3Q]

Going back to players preparing for away games, would it be fair to say Dimes' time is far too thinly spread at the club?? recent example, Dimes' was prepared to come to a supporters meeting to discuss match-day issues, whilst that's admirable for a D.o.R. I can't see Dai Young or Mark McCall doing the same.[/quote]

Agree entirely.Most if not all Premiership clubs have both a DOR and a CEO or something similar.Agree that it's commendable but why on earth is Diamond the go between the fans and the stadium management ? It can't just be coincidence that we're struggling both on and off the pitch.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
M5 Shark (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 10:52
Quote:
ashtonshark
Quote:
M5 Shark
The team are not prepared for away games. This is the responsibility of the DOR, he needs to accepts this. At this stage I would suggest the recruitment of Dr Steve Peters rather than a top class centre. He is renowned in his field of sports psychology and i would advise Dimes that a read of his book over the next two days may help him understand the Chimp Paradox.



Can he play in the 2nd row as well?

Well he could give most of our players a run for their money over 100m. He is 64 now, and ran 11.5 for 100m a few years ago according to Wiki. He is big in Masters Athletics

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 11:02
Quote:
Yes Curry tackles

There was one moment of brilliance from Smith when Curry was left for dead. It should have resulted in a try for Harlequins, but it didn't. The Currys are good tacklers when play is in the modern idiot, to quote Benny Hill - when the player who has the ball looks for someone to run into. They are both very physical and very able tacklers when brute force is the thing. It's much more difficult to tackle someone when one can't read where he is going. I have long hoped that the game would move back to favour players such as Smith, but while there is so much stall placed in retaining ball for twenty or thirty phases the risk takers don't seem to be welcomed in the main.

I turned the coverage off before Dimes was interviewed. Really there is no point in hearing it. I could write his scripts for him - plus Áa change and all that. That said, of course it has to be the same, every recent away game seems to have gone the same way. I wonder how many times lessons have to be learned before they are actually learned.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
stevene (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 11:44
Martwhit

Im confused. How can you blame a defence coach, as you constantly do, when we're playing away from home against a good side who have 80% possession for the first 25-30 mins? We all know your views about forshaw but you will be blaming him for global warming next. You don't win an away game against Quins with 20% possession for the majority of the first half. Christ we couldn't put any phases together and the first time we got in their 22 was when Haley scored!

Last night was summed up, for me, on about 20-25 mins when we had the ball in our 22. Harrison took the ball to the line and then tried a one handed, out of the back his hand, offload to Jones. That was a loosehead prop doing that in his own 22 when we had hardly any ball and already behind on the scoreboard. That, first and foremost, is a player mentality issue. A number of players need to man up and do their jobs which, quite frankly, they didn't do last night. Coaches can coach all they want but if we want to win away from home against Quinn you can't play like a sub standard baa baa team.

For me the only players who played well last night were Haley, evans, Strauss and ross of the starting Xv. De Klerk was targeted and had an off night. Those who performed particularly poorly:

Jennings is in the team to run straight, he forgot that for 60 mins.
Aj looked rushed and indecisive. O'Connor is likely our starting 10 from now.
Solomona positioning was consistently poor on defence.
Ostrikov needs to learn to catch.
Jones still has his wobbles at the lineout.
Harrison needs to remember he is a loosehad prop.
Tarus got took to the cleaners by marler and couldn't deal with him not scrummaging straight when ref was on the other side. Needed to realise the touch judge wasn't spotting that and would be pinged if he collapsed it as result.


The team was clearly knackered defensively in the second half due to the amount of defending they had to do in the first 40. But maybe that's Forshaws fault as well?

The coaches need to front up but so do a number of players away from home. Their performances were not good enough. That's not fixed with our home form it's mentality taking responsibility away from home which a number didn't do.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Bradwall Boy (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 11:49
Quote:
DaveAitch
Quote:
Yes Curry tackles

There was one moment of brilliance from Smith when Curry was left for dead. It should have resulted in a try for Harlequins, but it didn't. The Currys are good tacklers when play is in the modern idiot, to quote Benny Hill - when the player who has the ball looks for someone to run into. They are both very physical and very able tacklers when brute force is the thing. It's much more difficult to tackle someone when one can't read where he is going. I have long hoped that the game would move back to favour players such as Smith, but while there is so much stall placed in retaining ball for twenty or thirty phases the risk takers don't seem to be welcomed in the main.

I turned the coverage off before Dimes was interviewed. Really there is no point in hearing it. I could write his scripts for him - plus Áa change and all that. That said, of course it has to be the same, every recent away game seems to have gone the same way. I wonder how many times lessons have to be learned before they are actually learned.

Good tacklers can be stepped by good elusive players but that is when the defensive system should operate. You only have to go back a few months to see how the Lions bottled up New Zealand by having a system that everyone understood and worked to.

The worry must be the inconsistency and I agree with posts above that the issue is a psychological/team dynamic one. Wins build confidence but shipping 40 odd points can only lead to insecurity in both the systems and on a personal level. I suspect the DOR is too set in his ways to bring in help and so you will not see much improvement I fear.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Shep23 (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 11:53
Nothing will change until we sign a big unit to play in the seconds with Evans.

Beaumont is not up to scratch at 5 and does not look big or strong enough. Would be tempted rotate him through the backrow at 6/8 and use him off the bench. I want him to work at lock but it's just not working. Problem is we don't have the lock depth - that should have been remedied in the summer.

Then we need a replacement loosehead who we can trust to come on for Harrison. Maybe someone who offers another ball carrying option.

AJ does not work with the Sale patterns and isn't the man we need at 10 to take us forward

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
MartWhit (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 12:41
Stevene,

sorry guys, our defensive system is just rubbish.

- caught out on 30 seconds and zero phases with a simple chip behind because we parked big forwards in the cnetres
- Ended up with faf defending the wing slot after 2 phases
- nearly got caught by another simple chip for phase 4
- poor tackle technique gifts penalty after 3 minutes.
- preposterously lucky not to give away a try after 4 minutes when caught narrow.....again

quins didnt do anything to pull it apart, it just unravels all on its own.

Thats my precise analysis of just the first 5 minutes posted earlier in the thread. I could pull apart the rest, but I dont have the will.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
MartWhit (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 12:43
and as you highlight, Solomona was a shambles in defence. We had a 4 on 2 defensive advantage for Vissers first try and he still got caught infield and lobbed with a chip.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
ashtonshark (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 14:33
We were still getting caught out by the chip over/kick through in the 2nd half. Surely we should have seen that it was a deliberate Quins tactic and adjusted accordingly. Again just not smart rugby



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/2017 14:33 by ashtonshark.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
MartWhit (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 14:44
the essence of defence is firstly to prevent the opponent scoring, which we are patently failing to do to the tune of 50, 41 & 42 points for out away games.

After that, it is to regain possession by forcing an error or kick from the opponent. This we are also patently failing to do, you know line speed, man and ball tackles, all that blah blah. Teams can and are just keeping ball, playing phases, pushing us backwards and waiting (not very long) for our error.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
stevene (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 14:46
Quote:
MartWhit
Stevene,
sorry guys, our defensive system is just rubbish.

- caught out on 30 seconds and zero phases with a simple chip behind because we parked big forwards in the cnetres
- Ended up with faf defending the wing slot after 2 phases
- nearly got caught by another simple chip for phase 4
- poor tackle technique gifts penalty after 3 minutes.
- preposterously lucky not to give away a try after 4 minutes when caught narrow.....again

quins didnt do anything to pull it apart, it just unravels all on its own.

Thats my precise analysis of just the first 5 minutes posted earlier in the thread. I could pull apart the rest, but I dont have the will.

Still missing the point. If you gift a decent team away from him 80 percent possession you generally. That's nothing to d with the defensive system. The reason we lost last night was we can't string phases together or retain the ball.

There was a stat on the game after about 20 mins. Our tackle success rate was 97% theirs was 79%. Problem was they had made about 15 tackles and we had made 60+ if I remember right.

All teams which have 20% against a good attacking team look rubbish in defence as we have done against sarries, wasps and Quins after 20-30 mins. Our defence might not brilliant but it's not as bad as you make out. Our lack of ability to play tight and retain possession is more relevant. The bt guys made reference to the fact we haven't scored 'normal' tries like other sides this season in the commentary in the second half. That is both a positive (e.g. We have the ability to break open a game) but also a negative (we don't tend to score through tight play/ pressure/ going through the phases). That puts massive pressure on your defence, more so away from home.

I'm sure you'll disagree as from all your posts your pretty consistent in your views of forshaw. I just think there are other significant contributing issues to our defence away from home, namely our ability to retain possession and alleviate pressure.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
clutch (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 15:19
Plus our defence was excellent last week. It's more of an issue of awayitus and as you say the inability to retain the ball. I do think we will need to question the coaching and at some point look at it as we attempt to become a top 6 team. Forshaw has a lot in the bag. When he joined he made a huge difference to our defence and was arguably the main reason why we suddenly started finishing 6th.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Olyy (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 15:55
I think our plan A defence works well against certain gameplans - last week was a monumental effort.
Issue is we have no plan B and can't adjust, Quins obviously identified our weakness to chips over and exploited it massively, the commentary pointed it out after a matter of minutes yet we did nothing to adjust and they continued to exploit it all game.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
clutch (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 16:08
I think that is fair. We can't keep being awful away. Something has to change. Whether that is coachinh personel. A few key signings or a bit of luck.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
emerging shark (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 17:32
I still can't help feeling that we only target home games and are happy just to keep the score down away from home. I had a gut feeling that we would lose convincingly to Quins..
Mid table and perhaps qualification or Europe is probably out target.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
emerging shark (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 17:37
So Gloucester beat saints who were joint top of the table. Make of that what you will!

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 17:42
Quote:
Bradwall
Good tacklers can be stepped by good elusive players but that is when the defensive system should operate.
I don't disagree with....but, defensive systems don't operate well unless the side with the ball "play the game" and look for the safety of recycling (and usually done rather too slowly). The ball is retained, but the chance of really breaking through is lost (at least for another umpteen phases). There does seem to have been far more breakouts this season with defences thrown into disarray.

There have been several tries this season where the defensive winger has been lobbed by a pass or a kick. Possibly many players are looking for the glory of the interception and the breakaway try. I recall being told years ago (and I do mean years ago), when playing on th wing, to always be wide so as not to let the opposition player outflank you. Cover could get to the attacker if he was forced back inside but usually could not if you were outflanked.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
clutch (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 18:12
There is no way we only target home games. That can't be true anymore. We do get caught out wide too often but I don't see it as Forshaw's fault that we were 3 tries down. Plenty of other factors involved. O Connor and Faff combo is going to be so random that anything can happen!!!

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
Bradwall Boy (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 19:57
Quote:
DaveAitch
Quote:
Bradwall
Good tacklers can be stepped by good elusive players but that is when the defensive system should operate.
I don't disagree with....but, defensive systems don't operate well unless the side with the ball "play the game" and look for the safety of recycling (and usually done rather too slowly). The ball is retained, but the chance of really breaking through is lost (at least for another umpteen phases). There does seem to have been far more breakouts this season with defences thrown into disarray.

There have been several tries this season where the defensive winger has been lobbed by a pass or a kick. Possibly many players are looking for the glory of the interception and the breakaway try. I recall being told years ago (and I do mean years ago), when playing on th wing, to always be wide so as not to let the opposition player outflank you. Cover could get to the attacker if he was forced back inside but usually could not if you were outflanked.

Absolutely right. Basic stuff.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
HaleShark (IP Logged)
07 October, 2017 20:45
Quote:
emerging shark
I still can't help feeling that we only target home games and are happy just to keep the score down away from home. I had a gut feeling that we would lose convincingly to Quins..
Mid table and perhaps qualification or Europe is probably out target.


Yep, I've thought that too for a long time and the comment Dimes made about the squad taking the lead on the away games underlines this theory. However probably not a bad tactic when we had a less skilled squad, Premiership survival is everything to us. We need to change that mind-set now.

 
Re: Team v Quins 06/10/2017
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
08 October, 2017 07:27
Certain that we don't forfeit all away games, I think we tried to win at Quins, just made a complete FUBAR of it. Dimes has said in the past that our small squad means that we can't try to win all of our away games. He calls it targetting. I agree that he needs to be somewhat pragmatic about managing a small squad, but surely everyone can see that his approach has nurtured the very psychological problem that he says we now need help with. We do appear to have begun to utilise proper rotation this season, that hasn't yet adjusted the mindset for away games, it should in time.



There is far too much talk about good ball and bad ball. In my opinion, good ball is when you have possession and bad ball is when the opposition have it." - R.I.P. Dickie Jeeps 25/11/1931 - 08/10/2016

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