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McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
11 October, 2017 16:16
.... yet another non-native.

[www.therugbypaper.co.uk]



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Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
Irish_Shark (IP Logged)
11 October, 2017 20:33
Surely it's biltong not "billatong" he's making with strauss

 
Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
12 October, 2017 02:24
I have seen it referred to as Billatong, maybe a colloquial thing.

Kudu biltong, a thing of beauty, not sure there are many Kudu in the Salford environs though.



There is far too much talk about good ball and bad ball. In my opinion, good ball is when you have possession and bad ball is when the opposition have it." - R.I.P. Dickie Jeeps 25/11/1931 - 08/10/2016

 
Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
12 October, 2017 08:08
....you can see herds of them sweeping majestically across the plains of Chat Moss from your hotel bedroom.



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Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
clutch (IP Logged)
12 October, 2017 11:33
He's not going to get in ahead of Visser or Maitland. Who else do Scotland have on the wing?

 
Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
Irish_Shark (IP Logged)
12 October, 2017 12:00
Quote:
clutch
He's not going to get in ahead of Visser or Maitland. Who else do Scotland have on the wing?

Hogg hasn't played this season and Maitland picked up an ankle injury vs worcester an missed out last week.

 
Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
Yareet (IP Logged)
12 October, 2017 18:13
Quote:
clutch
He's not going to get in ahead of Visser or Maitland. Who else do Scotland have on the wing?

Seymour was good enough for the Lions

 
Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
13 October, 2017 07:59
Will Scotland be the first international side not to have a native?



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Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
MartWhit (IP Logged)
13 October, 2017 08:18
they dont even have native salmon anymore

 
Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
shaftesbury shark (IP Logged)
13 October, 2017 08:20
Quote:
Seymour was good enough for the Lions

well I think that's debatable :-)


Quote:
Will Scotland be the first international side not to have a native?


Don't really get your obsession with this Mrs T. I actually agree that the qualification laws should be looked at but for most teams I think the international game is in real trouble. Anything to help all teams be as competitive as they can be is a good thing I think, as long as they are acting within the laws (I know this hasn't always happened) then I don't see an issue.

Good for Byron to have a shot at internationals, it's good for Sale and if it helps for more competitive 6Ns, WCs etc. I think it is good for the game overall.

I fear that your hard line vision for the future of the international game will ultimately mean only England and NZ are left standing, and everyone else has either gone bankrupt or has no player base from which to form a competitive squad.

 
Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
Irish_Shark (IP Logged)
13 October, 2017 08:20
Quote:
Mrs Trellis of North Wales
Will Scotland be the first international side not to have a native?

More likely it would be Manu Samoa, most of there squad was born in new zealand

 
Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
MartWhit (IP Logged)
13 October, 2017 09:01
Nah. NZ would have no chance without the pacific islands.

 
Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
13 October, 2017 09:21
'Native' needs defining. Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Argentina and others can hardly be described as teams made up of 'natives'. I'm not sure how many of the England side are true natives. Beaumont should, with his name, be pushing for French recognition rather than hovering close to the England selection. In that sense, McGuigan at least has the right name for Scotland - or should it be Ireland.

 
Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
Yareet (IP Logged)
13 October, 2017 13:33
Quote:
shaftesbury shark
Quote:
Seymour was good enough for the Lions

well I think that's debatable :-)

Lions’ top try scorer

 
Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
13 October, 2017 14:37
Native means being born in the country you "represent". I'm not really sure how McGuigan "represents" Scotland other being gingerish and heavily tattooed.

Argentina 100% born in Argentina and quite a few Argentinians play for Italy through grandparents.

Budge Pountney born in England, lived in England, played in England, didn't have any Scottish parents ot grandparents but played for Scotland. How?

All populations outside Africa are descended from immigrants.



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Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
Barend (IP Logged)
13 October, 2017 16:43
Quote:
I'm not really sure how McGuigan "represents" Scotland other being gingerish and heavily tattooed.

Looking past the quite racially stereotyped comment, Byron's mother is from Glasgow.

 
Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
SimonG19 (IP Logged)
13 October, 2017 16:50
Quote:
Mrs Trellis of North Wales
Native means being born in the country you "represent". I'm not really sure how McGuigan "represents" Scotland other being gingerish and heavily tattooed.
Argentina 100% born in Argentina and quite a few Argentinians play for Italy through grandparents.

Budge Pountney born in England, lived in England, played in England, didn't have any Scottish parents ot grandparents but played for Scotland. How?

All populations outside Africa are descended from immigrants.

So if for example somebody is born overseas whilst their parents are working abroad and they return to England at the age of a few weeks and live here for the rest of their lives they can't consider themselves to be a native of this country?

Interesting.

 
Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
madders (IP Logged)
13 October, 2017 17:01
Quote:
Mrs Trellis of North Wales

Budge Pountney born in England, lived in England, played in England, didn't have any Scottish parents ot grandparents but played for Scotland. How?

.

Budge Pountney was one of the more obscure loopholes. A grandmother came from Jersey, which apparently could count as any of the home nations...

That's too obscure for me, but I've got no problem with family heritage linking you to a country. It's not like BMcG has jumped on a recent bandwagon, he's been involved with the Scots for years, and is now showing he has the potential to aim for full honours.

 
Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
Olyy (IP Logged)
13 October, 2017 17:02
I don't seem to recall similar gnashing of teeth when Jennings was selected to play for England u20s 🤔

Ross moriarty obviously shouldn't be allowed to play for Wales, either, as he was born in St Helens

 
Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
13 October, 2017 17:14
Jennings lives and works in England as does Moriarty. I reckon to represent a country you should either be a native or live & work there.



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Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
Olyy (IP Logged)
13 October, 2017 17:57
Moriarty born, raised, lived and works in England
Plays for Wales
Get your pitchforks and torches out!

 
Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
13 October, 2017 18:05
Maybe a welsh bloke wants to play for wales instead of Moriarty.



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Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
Yareet (IP Logged)
13 October, 2017 18:13
Quote:
Mrs Trellis of North Wales
Jennings lives and works in England as does Moriarty. I reckon to represent a country you should either be a native or live & work there.

So no problems with Hughes and Denny playing for England then.

But you would have a problem with Moriarty.

I think most who take issue with the current state of international selections would hold completely the opposite view.

 
Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
13 October, 2017 18:19
Denny & Hughes live and work in England so no problem ditto Hartley, the Vunipolas, and anyone else representing the country they live and work in as long as legally English qualified. Qualification by parents' or grandparents' nation of birth is really only an accident of birth and imho doesn't constitute "representation".



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Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
ale shark (IP Logged)
13 October, 2017 18:25
Ross Moriarty couldn't look any more Welsh. They're welcome to him.

 
Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
13 October, 2017 18:32
If McGuigan were playing club rugby in Scotland he would still be a non native, which seemed to be the initial problem at the start of the thread.

 
Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
Yareet (IP Logged)
13 October, 2017 18:34
Quote:
Mrs Trellis of North Wales
Denny & Hughes live and work in England so no problem ditto Hartley, the Vunipolas, and anyone else representing the country they live and work in as long as legally English qualified. Qualification by parents' or grandparents' nation of birth is really only an accident of birth and imho doesn't constitute "representation".

Moriarty was born of a Welsh father (who happened to be working in England at the time) and raised in Wales. Yet you’d consider him to be English at 21 (when he made his Wales debut). Him representing England at u/20s was more of an accident of birth/where he was living.

Hughes moved to NZ at 18 and to England at 22. Yet you say he is English at 25 (when he made his debut).

I’m not saying you’re wrong but I think most people would disagree.

 
Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
13 October, 2017 18:37
Of course Hughes isn't English - he qualifies for England through residence.

If there was to a limit on non-natives I'd go with that - for all teams including England.



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Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
Yareet (IP Logged)
13 October, 2017 20:54
Quote:
Mrs Trellis of North Wales
Of course Hughes isn't English - he qualifies for England through residence.
If there was to a limit on non-natives I'd go with that - for all teams including England.

So one can qualify via residency but not heritage/family? Fairly sure Moriarty’s upbringing was much more Welsh than Hughes’ was English.

 
Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
14 October, 2017 08:33
Qualifying through parentage/grandparentage allows a player to "represent" a country he has never ever set foot in - see Tonga's squad in the last RWC. This is just daft and an insult to native-born players.



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Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
14 October, 2017 21:49
I would say that, as a minimum, you should be a citizen of the country you represent. Those who qualify on residence should apply for (and be granted) citizen status before they can play for that country. If applying for citizenship has its own (longer) residence requirement, then so be it: it becomes more difficult to play for 'another' country. (And, yes, I'm aware of the problems that the peculiar situation in the UK and Ireland throws up in that regard but, like I said, citizenship is a minimum).



http://v4admin.sportnetwork.net/upload/101/101_0_1475852289.jpghttp://www.sportnetwork.net/mainadmin/img/1011155763860.jpg
Somewhere in the South Stand

 
Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
15 October, 2017 08:03
The problem with citizenship is that the time necessary can vary from country to country. What that can mean is if a country has a need to get certain figures as citizens it can either have a lesser (time or other) qualification or a fast track system for "someone special". There is also the problem of the person who holds multiple citizenship. What it means is that there has citizenship plus other factors that have to be satisfied, but then can the rights of the individual be denied by an international rugby body saying that someone, although a citizen, can not be selected.

Tonga, for instance (assuming Mrs T is correct with the assertion above). could grant anyone deemed to good enough for its rugby side to be a citizen.

There is no one size fits all answer and somewhere along the line compromises have to be made that will leave someone unhappy. Some will just be more unhappy than others, or, at least, make more of a song and dance about it.

 
Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
Yareet (IP Logged)
15 October, 2017 09:30
Quote:
Mrs Trellis of North Wales
Qualifying through parentage/grandparentage allows a player to "represent" a country he has never ever set foot in - see Tonga's squad in the last RWC. This is just daft and an insult to native-born players.

It also allows a player to represent a country he has a familial affinity for.

 
Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
15 October, 2017 10:21
I don't think the regulations are that far wrong at the moment, now that residence eligibility has been extended to 5 years. The main problem I see is that World Rugby doesn't want to introduce different regulations for different 'Tiers' of nations. This one size fits all means there will always be some nations better able to exploit the regulation than others. I think that in time World Rugby may be forced into relaxing some of the criteria for 'smaller' nations in the interests of maintaining a greater number of competitive nations.

The regulation of main concern to this particular matter is:-

8.1 Subject to Regulation 8.2, a Player may only play for the senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team, the next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative Team and the senior National Representative Sevens Team of the Union of the country with which the Player has a genuine, close, credible and established national link in which:

(a) he was born; or

(b) one parent or grandparent was born; or

(c) he has completed sixty¹ consecutive months of Residence immediately preceding the time of playing; or

(d) he has completed ten years of cumulative Residence preceding the time of playing.


Regulation 8.2 mentioned is the one dealing with having payed for a B team or 7's team of another nation.


The intent of that rule would appear to be exactly what Mrs T is asking for "genuine, close, credible and established national link". It would seem Mrs T, that your only issue with the regulation is the allowance of Grandparents as a national link.



There is far too much talk about good ball and bad ball. In my opinion, good ball is when you have possession and bad ball is when the opposition have it." - R.I.P. Dickie Jeeps 25/11/1931 - 08/10/2016

 
Re: McGuigan aiming for Scotland......
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
15 October, 2017 12:25
Quote:
Poynters
The intent of that rule would appear to be exactly what Mrs T is asking for "genuine, close, credible and established national link". It would seem Mrs T, that your only issue with the regulation is the allowance of Grandparents as a national link.
I'm not quite sure that is true. The thread-starter object, if not objection, was the selection of another non-native and McGuigan apparently has a Scottish mother.

I'm not quite sure that someone living in Scotland for a few years necessarily gives a national link, just as many Sale, Sale Sharks or Caldy players/coaches have any real link to the relevant club other than money. Once the money stops being paid the link for many of them tends to disappear pretty quickly.


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