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Greedy England et al..?
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 08:35
Samoan Rugby effectively bankrupt
Discuss...

Must admit it would appear that the bigger rugby nations have acted like the leading Premier League sides rather than look to the wider future of the international game in the past.

However could and should they do far more than the details outlined?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2017 08:39 by H's Dad....

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
emerging shark (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 09:01
Hughes and Tuilangi are calling on the English players to give a % of their £22,000 match fee to Samoa...

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
ale shark (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 09:10
Whilst itís a noble gesture the players shouldnít be getting involved or put in a position where they get asked questions about the issue.

Itís an IRB issue in how they spread the funding. If the RFU want to help the Samoan union by covering their costs this week then thatís great but the players shouldnít get involved.

Why should someone like Tom Curry have to dig into his pockets? Where do you draw the line? Doesnít sit comfortably with me.

(edit, Ben corrected to Tom!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2017 09:47 by ale shark.

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
emerging shark (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 09:23
Agreed. I have visions of brown envelopes being passed around the changing rooms after the match...(Sm63)

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
Flumpty (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 09:37
Quote:
ale shark
Itís an IRB issue in how they spread the funding. If the RFU want to help the Samoan union by covering their costs this week then thatís great but the players shouldnít get involved.


From this BBC article, the RFU are already covering the costs of the Samoan Union once they're here and World Rugby pays for their flights to get here.

But I appreciate that there is an absolutely enormous financial gap between the two Unions.

Isn't this the same story that did the rounds 3 years ago, when this famous picture was taken ?
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/11/22/2369D91800000578-2845697-image-2_1416700500300.jpg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2017 09:37 by Flumpty.

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
shaftesbury shark (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 09:45
Quote:
Whilst itís a noble gesture the players shouldnít be getting involved or put in a position where they get asked questions about the issue.
Itís an IRB issue in how they spread the funding. If the RFU want to help the Samoan union by covering their costs this week then thatís great but the players shouldnít get involved.

Why should someone like Ben Curry have to dig into his pockets? Where do you draw the line? Doesnít sit comfortably with me.


They should get involved because they want to. I would hope they would only act like this if they were unanimously in favour of doing so.

Frankly it is appalling how the minor rugby nations have been treated (and run by their administrators) over the years and the more anyone can do then it can only be better for the sport as a whole. If the players want to raise the visibility of this then I think this is great and they should be applauded.

There isn't a rugby team anywhere, club or nation, that hasn't / isn't benefiting from players from these countries. If we run them into bankruptcy no-one will be better off.

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
HaleShark (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 10:18
You can have the best players in the world, with the best facilities and the best stadiums but if the opposing team can't afford to turn up then what you have is actually worthless.

I agree, it's not the the players to organise the sharing of match fees, it's down to the people who run World Rugby to make sure the smaller nations are getting their fair share of the revenues.

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
MartWhit (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 10:19
There's an enormous financial gap between the RFU and the NZRU too, but hopefully we wont be paying them.

I think the gesture made by the RFU, and also by individual players is excellent and shows their empathy for a tough and somewhat unfair situation.

However, the issue is a large and fundamental one, between World Rugby and the Samoa RU. England cant and wont be anything more than a sticking plaster to a large wound. The most productinve long term contribution the RFU could make would be to commit to a regular England fixture in Samoa.

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
Flumpty (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 10:37
Previously, hasn't there been "concerns" about senior politicians getting overly involved in the running of the Samoan Rugby Union and claims of corruption (in the system, not by the players)

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
WithingtonShark (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 10:53
High time the big nations pay a "South Seas Tax" for each player born in Samoa, Tonga, Fiji etc playing internationals for Eng, Fra, Wales, NZ, Aus etc...

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
SimonG19 (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 11:05
A few years ago, when Mark Evans was CEO, Quins hosted an Autumn international warm-up game against Samoa in which all of the proceeds went to the visitors.

It's a pity the RFU don't have the decency to give a suitable proportion of the enormous profit they will make from this game to the Samoans.

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
MartWhit (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 11:30
I think, as Flumpty suggests, you'd want to know where that proportion was going to go before you considered offering it.

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
shaftesbury shark (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 11:38
Agree with most of the above.

But one thing I do disagree is that this not for the RFU and England to do something about.

We could, if we so choose, commit now to visiting Samoa, and other such teams for away fixtures during our summer tours. I think it is really scandalous that England have never visited Samoa for a match.

Second, we could organise a more equitable arrangement to share revenues from our home games. And yes, I do think that could stretch to all countries, including NZ, not just the "smaller" nations. But perhaps to different extents.

It does not benefit England or rugby if we are left with no countries to play because they are all bankrupt.

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
MartWhit (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 12:29
not australia though surely Shaftesbury? (Sm100)

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
SimonG19 (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 16:06
Quote:
MartWhit
I think, as Flumpty suggests, you'd want to know where that proportion was going to go before you considered offering it.

I don't think Flumpty said that at all but I agree it is a concern.

However if the money was paid to the Samoan RFU and the sum paid was made known to all interested parties (including the IRcool smiley then it is difficult to know what else they could do.

Other than keep all the receipts citing possible corruption concerns as an excuse for their greed of course.

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 16:08
I think the current RL World Cup pool games give another insight into why European countries might perhaps be reluctant to tour to the South Pacific islands (with their higher temperatures and humidity.)
It would appear European players are pretty poorly equipped physiologically to be competitive under some climatic conditions!

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 16:23
Surely pool games are good in high temperatures and humidity.

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
shaftesbury shark (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 16:26
Quote:
MW
not australia though surely Shaftesbury? (Sm100)


there is always a line that has to be drawn somewhere :-)

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
Flumpty (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 16:26
Quote:
SimonG19
Quote:
MartWhit
I think, as Flumpty suggests, you'd want to know where that proportion was going to go before you considered offering it.

I don't think Flumpty said that at all but I agree it is a concern.


With regards the sticky at the top of the page, I was (hopefully) very careful in what I wrote !

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
SimonG19 (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 18:29
Quote:
Flumpty
Quote:
SimonG19
Quote:
MartWhit
I think, as Flumpty suggests, you'd want to know where that proportion was going to go before you considered offering it.

I don't think Flumpty said that at all but I agree it is a concern.


With regards the sticky at the top of the page, I was (hopefully) very careful in what I wrote !

Indeed. I think you merely asked a question which is why I said what I did.

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
Irish_Shark (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 19:09
Quote:
DaveAitch
Surely pool games are good in high temperatures and humidity.

Ideally billiards would be played in a well ventilated crucible.

On topic the stadium facilities that the Islanders have would probably make Edgeley park look like a 5 star stadium. Samoa probably has one of the better venues. The fact that they're not guaranteed world cup qualification at the minute could cause major issues too.

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 19:21
I congratulated the All Blacks for playing there, until I found out what their travel bill was. Samoa were apparently £200,000 out of pocket on the game (but the IRU, or whoever, did step in to pay it). I find it strange that rugby has this wish to spread the game, but only if, it seems, that can be done without costing anything.

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
thekeg (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 19:46
There's an interview on the rugby dungepn podcast which discusses a lot of these issues, I think his name is Dan Leo and he is the person responsible for (amongst other things) helping south sea islanders settle in the UK when they come over. He talked about the unions over there and from memory he was pretty scathing about the Samoan union in particular. If that is true then this situation may be far more complex than it appears and simply throwing money at the issue may just delay issues rather than resolve them.

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
MartWhit (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 20:09
Dan Leo is a Samoan ex Wasp and London Irish second row/back row. Pretty handy.

Now quite a mouthpiece for player interests and welfare.

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
SimonG19 (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 20:51
Quote:
MartWhit
Dan Leo is a Samoan ex Wasp and London Irish second row/back row. Pretty handy.

And currently playing No 8 for Bishop's Stortford in National One!

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
MartWhit (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 21:08
wow.

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
Pappje Shark (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 22:00
There are undoubtedly wider issues between world Rugby and the Samoan union, but given the previous RFU CEO was blunt about his lack of interest in helping grow the game vis-ŗ-vis Georgia in the Six Nations, I'm not sure that organisation has much interest in helping Samoan rugby.

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
10 November, 2017 01:55
Quote:
Pappje Shark
There are undoubtedly wider issues between world Rugby and the Samoan union, but given the previous RFU CEO was blunt about his lack of interest in helping grow the game vis-ŗ-vis Georgia in the Six Nations, I'm not sure that organisation has much interest in helping Samoan rugby.
Yes, I had initially forgotten that stance had been taken about Georgia, but with your prompt I recall someone high up in the 6N organisation making similar noises. The trouble is that we all like our annual game against the other home nations.

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
ale shark (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 07:52
[www.theguardian.com]

Update on the giving money to the Samoans thing. Not happening.

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 09:28
How very christian...(Sm17)

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
ale shark (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 09:57
Quote:
H's Dad...
How very christian...(Sm17)

What an odd thing to say. I havenít seen this yearís figures but a couple of seasons ago England players (up to £22,000) were getting approximately 4 times as much as the Welsh in match fees (£5,300). Should the Christian members of the English team be sharing their wealth with the Welsh?

What about those that don't give a stuff about religion? Are they exempt?

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
23 November, 2017 11:58
One is reminded of the old proverb:-

"Give a starving man a fish and you feed him for a day; teach him how to fish and you feed him for life"



https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4248/34452231260_b77f3695e4_t.jpg
Dis mus be da place

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 12:21
There's a 'big difference in meaning between christian and Christian!
Nowt to do with one religion. Many Moslems are very christian in attitude. Their religion and several others suggest/require the giving of 10% of income to good causes. Many do.
I meant christian in the philanthropic sense. It's an expression of 'brotherly love' a significant tennet of many religions.
Rugby makes quite a thing about it's brotherhood/family: which is often demonstrated in terms of things like the support and charitable giving for Doddy Weir. But it obviously only goes so far.
Different circumstances of course, nevertheless one is proud of one and ashamed of the other.

In a more general sense £220,000 vs £650 is a ratio of 300:1 .
That sort of disparity is obscene, when both sets of players contribute equally to the spectator sport. Both sets are taking the same risks. Most of the Samoa players have EU worker's rights.

As the first article indicates in it's Analysis, lots of discussion points. The answers to most that it poses would be a qualified "YES" in my book.

As far as "Where does one draw the line?" I'm open to suggestions. 20:1?
24:1 is said to be the disparity in basic income between the top 10% of workers in the UK and the bottom 10% and it's getting wider. Many call that a modern obscenity.

As far as 'setting a precedent' is concerned, it might just have shamed the RFU into doing more in the future!
If the England players had given £2K each (10%) as an ex-gratia gift to their opposite numbers it would have been tremendous.
I expect those already playing over here on good salaries would pass it on and use it appropriately.
Mrs Trellis proverb is certainly true, but far far more needs to be done, moreover interim emergency measures appear to be needed.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 23/11/2017 12:37 by H's Dad....

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
Tom A Hawk (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 12:59
Chief in Peace,

I should point out that England are due to give Samoa an estimated £75,000 following the match as a "Goodwill Gesture". The notion that was turned down was simply that the players should not give their up money as the RFU has already announced they intend on giving money to Samoa.

But that said if you want to call anyone greedy, or cheap then I would advise pointing that finger north as all Scotland covered for the Samoan team was accommodation and travel costs and there was no intention of any additional funds being given to Samoa.

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
ale shark (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 14:07
If Jonny Leota was getting paid 1/20th of what Sam James is because he's Samoan then there would be an issue but he's not (I hope). Playing for Samoa is not a job, it's a representative team that the players are free to decline an invite to, many have. The fact that the Samoan board appear to be so poor in their distribution of IRB funds is nothing to do with the RFU and definitely not their players.

7 of the starting 15 play their club rugby in England, the rest play in other major leagues around the world. I suspect none of them rely on foodbanks to survive. The disparity in international appearance fees is a total red herring. If TJ was facing off against a Curry this weekend then Iíd suggest that his annual wage might be more than the Curry.

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
shaftesbury shark (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 14:13
Quote:
In a more general sense £220,000 vs £650 is a ratio of 300:1 .


It's £22,000 per player.

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
shaftesbury shark (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 14:21
Ale, I do agree with what you have written, and it isn't really the players who should be working this out.

But the fact remains that there is a huge issue with how revenues from the game are shared out, and that the smaller nations do not seem to get their fair share. Also as you rightly say, there are issues with how the game is run, and money distributed in some of these countries.

The main fault I believe is that the RFU (and other rugby boards) do not share any of the match day revenues, and yet also (in England's case) do not offer a return fixture to Samoa and others. That just isn't right IMO, and is hugely detrimental to rugby in general. Regardless of how the e.g. Samoan rugby board deal with that money - that is a different issue.

I think it could only be a good thing if the players wanted to draw attention to this issue by donating a small part of what is a large match fee, and for me it's a shame they have not done so. But it is not the main problem here, and they shouldn't be blamed for taking this decision.

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
SimonG19 (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 14:53
Quote:
shaftesbury shark
I think it could only be a good thing if the players wanted to draw attention to this issue by donating a small part of what is a large match fee, and for me it's a shame they have not done so. But it is not the main problem here, and they shouldn't be blamed for taking this decision.

Totally agree.

 
Re: Greedy England et al..?
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 19:40
That is, indeed, the main point i was trying to make.
That and the fact that a disparity in payment for the players participating in the match of even only 30:1 is far too large. (my dumb misreading)
Salaries are irrelevant, as any token payment would no doubt end up being used to support Samoan Rugby. If All England players get the same for this one-off match, why not the Samoans?

Anyway very poor phrasing on my part initially.,,,and an idiotic mistake with the reading/maths.
My brain was on holiday - time to give the board a rest.(Sm95)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 23/11/2017 22:38 by H's Dad....


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