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European International Rugby Revamp
Penalty Try (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 09:57
What do people think to promotion/relegation from the 6 nations & Rugby Europe Championship?

Currently the 6 Nations is a closed shop, but with Georgia now above Italy in the World Rugby rankings and quickly closing in on France, Wales & Scotland. Should things have to stay as they are?

I would like to propose a 2 year cycle that includes promotion & relegation. This will deliver 3 main objectives.

(i) It will improve the level of rugby of the bottom teams in the 6 six nations, thus providing the likes of Ireland & England with more meaningful matches.

(ii) A bi-annual promotion/relegation will allow for each nation to play home & away prior to a final table being published. (The 6 Nations would stay an annual event, but 2 years tables would be added together to work out who finished bottom over a 10 match series).

(iii) It will develop an interest in 2nd & possibly 3rd tear European rugby within the home nations.

Rugby Europe Championship
Year Winner
2010  Romania
2011  Georgia
2012  Georgia
2013  Georgia
2014  Georgia
2015  Georgia
2016  Georgia
2017  Romania

6 Nations
Year Bottom
2010 Italy
2011 Italy
2012 Scotland
2013 France
2014 Italy
2015 Scotland
2016 Italy
2017 Italy

 
Re: European International Rugby Revamp
ale shark (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 10:43
If Georgia had to play the tier 1 nations as often as Italy I'm not sure they'd be above them in the rankings. With Wales and Fiji their World Cup group they’ve probably got their best ever chance to progress. Let’s see how they get on against a Jamie Roberts inspired Wales (who they’ve never played) at the weekend.

Georgia have only played Italy once and they lost so it would be good to see them matched up again, I guess Italy are strongly against such a fixture! They only way the 6N will change is if Italian rugby goes bankrupt and they can't afford to fulfil their fixtures.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 14/11/2017 12:00 by ale shark.

 
Re: European International Rugby Revamp
clutch (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 12:09
The problem with a play off is the advantage Italy will have being battle hardened against stronger opposition. They could do something like the RL middle 8 format I guess, but that would involve more games.

Maybe the bottom 2 6 nations can play the top 2 2nd tier teams in the autumn international period to quality for the 6 nations. Actually, I love that idea. I'm a genius. Problem solved.

 
Re: European International Rugby Revamp
MartWhit (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 12:45
However its done, I'm all in favour of open competition and promtion/relegation where merited.

IMO, change every 2 years is perhaps too often. Sides still likely to yoyo. 3-5 years about right.

As with the pacific islands, there outght to be a compulsion for tier 1 nations to have regular (preferebly away) fixtures vs tier 2.

 
Re: European International Rugby Revamp
Yareet (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 14:19
On the Flats&Shanks podcast (other, more Sharks-focussed podcasts are available!) somebody asked about replacing the 6N every 4 years with a pan-European competition.

Two groups of 4, top 2 qualify for the semis (or even 3 groups of 4 with group leaders and the best placed runner up) would mean max 5 games (so no more than at the moment) and would mean more countries could play tier 1 opposition more regularly.

The main obstacles are that it would mean fewer home games for each country, it would probably be in a Lions year (to avoid the World Cup) and that the classic 6N matches would probably not happen. No Calcutta Cup. No Le Crunch. No Wales v Ireland.

 
Re: European International Rugby Revamp
emerging shark (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 15:31
Not going to change short term - fixture congestion.

 
Re: European International Rugby Revamp
Flumpty (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 15:56
Quote:
Yareet
No Calcutta Cup. No Le Crunch. No Wales v Ireland.

....no chance it would happen.

The coffers still need replenishing.

 
Re: European International Rugby Revamp
Pappje Shark (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 17:06
Relegation isn't going to happen for the simple reason that there is no guarantee it would always be Georgia or Italy who get relegated and so the Unions involved would never go for it. And nor would the broadcasters/sponsors as it runs the risk of there being no specific games of the ilk Yareet mentioned were a big nation to be relegated.

So if there's no relegation, something should be done to add Georgia in. They regularly get 55,000 I think it is watching their games at home, they've clearly dominated the second tier game for several years and they can only improve with more regular exposure to the leasing nations.

However, the previous RFU CEO commented that it wasn't their responsibility to grow the game which is a shameless and myopic stance to take. (Although they won't even move England games from Twickenham to tour the country because of 10,000 debenture holders, so what hope have Georgia got of feeding into the equation?!)

 
Re: European International Rugby Revamp
Flumpty (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 17:14
Quote:
Pappje Shark

However, the previous RFU CEO commented that it wasn't their responsibility to grow the game which is a shameless and myopic stance to take. (Although they won't even move England games from Twickenham to tour the country because of 10,000 debenture holders, so what hope have Georgia got of feeding into the equation?!)

Why is it shameless & myopic ? The RFU's responsibility is building rugby in England, nowhere else.
I get what you say about moving games from Twickenham - if my memory is working properly, the income from a Twickenham game is so large and so few games are played there annually, that the effect on the RFU coffers would be substantial i.e less money to redistribute amongst the RFU clubs.

I'll try to find the article that I'm thinking of - the income from Twickenham, vs the costs/much lower income from outside of Twickenham, were enormous.

 
Re: European International Rugby Revamp
Pappje Shark (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 20:12
That would be interesting to see, but if you can fill Old Trafford or St. James' Park then I'm sure there is still a substantial revenue opportunity. Any shortfall vs. Twickenham and the debenture seat holders represents an investment in attracting new recruits to the sport and making it accessible to a wider audience. (To a large extent, similar arguments can be posed of the FA and Wembley).

As for shameless and myopic, I stand by it. England rugby is nothing by itself and a self-serving attitude towards keeping developing nations down will be counter-productive in the long term in my view. I think it's equally poor that we haven't been to play e.g. Samoa and the Pacific Island teams.

 
Re: European International Rugby Revamp
Flumpty (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 21:31
Quote:
Pappje Shark
That would be interesting to see, but if you can fill Old Trafford or St. James' Park then I'm sure there is still a substantial revenue opportunity. Any shortfall vs. Twickenham and the debenture seat holders represents an investment in attracting new recruits to the sport and making it accessible to a wider audience. (To a large extent, similar arguments can be posed of the FA and Wembley).
As for shameless and myopic, I stand by it. England rugby is nothing by itself and a self-serving attitude towards keeping developing nations down will be counter-productive in the long term in my view. I think it's equally poor that we haven't been to play e.g. Samoa and the Pacific Island teams.

Pappje
Again, if I remember it right, even it St James Park was filled to capacity, it would still be circa 30000 less than would be in Twickenham (30000 x average ticket price at Twickenham is a lot), the money from corporates would be massively diminished and the cost of "hiring" the ground would be substantial. I think that it was Eddie Jones that said something along the lines of "yeah mate, its a nice idea, but it would cost a fortune to put on".

An end of season England A game against (say) Georgia, at (say) Etihad Stadium would seem like a decent suggestion, but maybe the BaaBaa's vs England A fixture at Twickenham is set in stone and can't be changed.

& i stand by my point that the prime responsibility of the RFU is to make rugby in England as strong as possible. I imagine that approach is shared by the other home Unions as well.

I'd love to see England touring the Pacific Islands as well. In the upcoming years, thats going to happen, isn't it ?

 
Re: European International Rugby Revamp
ale shark (IP Logged)
15 November, 2017 10:34
Quote:
Flumpty
I'd love to see England touring the Pacific Islands as well. In the upcoming years, thats going to happen, isn't it ?

It might be my ignorance shining through but have you seen the size of the Pacific Islands? Tonga in particular is absolutely tiny, quite how they field a semi competitive team is pretty astonishing. I doubt the local infrastructure there could cope with a tour. The England team, their hangers on and the media would probably book out every hotel on the island and more. Samoa is very small as well.

 
Re: European International Rugby Revamp
Flumpty (IP Logged)
15 November, 2017 11:02
Quote:
ale shark
Quote:
Flumpty
I'd love to see England touring the Pacific Islands as well. In the upcoming years, thats going to happen, isn't it ?

It might be my ignorance shining through but have you seen the size of the Pacific Islands? Tonga in particular is absolutely tiny, quite how they field a semi competitive team is pretty astonishing. I doubt the local infrastructure there could cope with a tour. The England team, their hangers on and the media would probably book out every hotel on the island and more. Samoa is very small as well.

England to tour Pacific Islands as World Rugby reveals new global calendar

 
Re: European International Rugby Revamp
hilly07 (IP Logged)
15 November, 2017 13:43
Instead of playing a nothing game against Wales etc before a summer tour (while prem final players are away) then a game v Georgia seems the better way of getting an England team playing them. Italy is harshly done by the ranking system based on who they play. I don't agree with opening the 6 nations as Georgia are still nowhere near strong enough. World Rugby seems to be making more of the tier 2 comp so good things could be happening for those teams and players across Europe. If Germany gets their act together (a lot of money behind them) it could get very interesting.

 
Re: European International Rugby Revamp
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
16 November, 2017 17:47
Amazon and Google, Man U et al all use the same sort of rationale to justify their tax arrangements.
"Their only duty is to their shareholders". It's equally short-termist, myopic and shameless.(Sm6)


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