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Dimes- RFU written judgement
stevene (IP Logged)
22 November, 2017 10:09
now published here

[www.englandrugby.com]

not great reading. irrespective of my sympathy as to the timing of interviews post match etc its disappointing re email the day before the disciplinary.

interestingly the panel seemed more keen on harsher punishment/ the stadium ban than the RFU.

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
ale shark (IP Logged)
22 November, 2017 10:48
It's not great but this is the point that gets me:

“43 Mr. Diamond pointed out that he was required to comment to the media immediately after the match when passions were running high. He said that he was simply questioning the decision making and not deliberately attacking the integrity of the referee.

He said that he had been exposed to the media in a highly emotional state a very short time after a Controversial and costly decision. Notwithstanding his plea he questioned whether he had in fact said anything prejudicial.

He said that if he couldn’t question the decision of an official he had to question why he was in the sport.”

I simply don't think it's fair or reasonable that coaches get microphone thrust in their face either during or immediately after the games, regardless of the result. I think BT need to rethink their approach to the post-match, sat round a table with replays, discussion.

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
Chris1850 (IP Logged)
22 November, 2017 10:52
Thanks for posting that link stevene.

The judgment makes for sobering reading and it is clear that Dimes is now sailing very close to the wind. I was particularly struck by paras 61 & 62:

61. It is also right to observe that we now detect not only a recurrence of behaviour which offends the core values but now, of deep concern, an attitude which shows no or little insight into it.
62. We would urge not only Mr. Diamond to reflect upon this but would also urge Sale Sharks to look at this issue seriously. We invite them to help and support Mr. Diamond and to recognise the serious nature of this matter. They are a great and well supported Club. They must show leadership and seek to protect and uphold the game’s core values. They too have a
responsibility to the game.


Para 61 seems to be saying that SD does not understand the need for behaving appropriately and Para 62 that the Club must effectively rein him in. Clearly, both he and the Club will now be very high on the RFU's watchlist wrt disciplinary issues.

I am a great supporter of Dimes. He has done a fantastic job for us over the years with limited resources and we should be grateful for what he has done. I know he can be abrasive, even rude, but he does now need to take a step back and consider the wider implications of his public behaviour for the sake of the club. He will now be banned from the stadium for 2 of the most important games of this season and that cannot be good for the team.

Time for him to accept his punishment, move on and learn for the future.

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
philthefluter (IP Logged)
22 November, 2017 11:36
The problem is Steve Diamond says what other DORs just think. Very difficult to constrain himself with his volatile nature - maybe time for him to say nothing and put somebody else up after a game.

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
SimonG19 (IP Logged)
22 November, 2017 12:06
Quote:
ale shark
It's not great but this is the point that gets me:
“43 Mr. Diamond pointed out that he was required to comment to the media immediately after the match when passions were running high. He said that he was simply questioning the decision making and not deliberately attacking the integrity of the referee.

He said that he had been exposed to the media in a highly emotional state a very short time after a Controversial and costly decision. Notwithstanding his plea he questioned whether he had in fact said anything prejudicial.

He said that if he couldn’t question the decision of an official he had to question why he was in the sport.”

I simply don't think it's fair or reasonable that coaches get microphone thrust in their face either during or immediately after the games, regardless of the result. I think BT need to rethink their approach to the post-match, sat round a table with replays, discussion.

I agree ale shark. It's as ridiculous as TV cameramen running on the field to put a camera in the face of a just dismissed batsman as he leaves the field in cricket. It adds nothing for viewers who have brains.

However it happens and it's part of the job for those being interviewed (or pursued) for which they are amply rewarded so I'm afraid I have little sympathy for Diamond's argument.

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
clutch (IP Logged)
22 November, 2017 12:13
Oh come on, we all want to hear what they have to say straight after. Plus, he'd had time to calm down, plus it wasn't as if we would have definitely scored.

having said that I agree with him questioning whether he had in fact said anything prejudicial. I don't really think he did. So regardless of the clear wrongs of what he said, in context he may have been harshly treated.

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
22 November, 2017 12:14
Quote:
The problem is Steve Diamond says what other DORs just think.

Or what some of the spectators initially thought, given that he signalled for one offence but was actually giving the penalty for another.

Perhaps the RFU were slightly more lenient because of the above.
Quote:
Disciplinary report.
40. The RFU also urged us to consider suspending any sanction imposed as they felt that this was a useful way to try to regulate Mr. Diamond’s behaviour.

Fully agree with the top couple of posts.


Interesting reading, and i learned a new word: "adumbrate" (to represent in outline form).
As a wide-mouthed frog might say 'You don't see many of those about do you?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 22/11/2017 12:17 by H's Dad....

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
clutch (IP Logged)
22 November, 2017 12:23
There is some right guff in that report!! Incidentally, Diamond's previous issues are unacceptable. Swearing at a ref is far worse, and his comments about Wayne Barnes being fat were also worse. Difficult to have too much sympathy with him based the previous indiscretions. Would be intrigued to know what would have happened should another DOR have made those comments? I wouldn't be surprised that the slap on the wrist that Diamond asked for may have been the only sanction.

I also wonder whether the there is the added point that despite his comments being unacceptable they were, in an unsubtle and blunt way, correct!!

The point "the comments were disgraceful" are a bit ott!! If they are disgraceful, then the committee are going to struggle to find the appropriate words if something genuinely serious happens!

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
emerging shark (IP Logged)
22 November, 2017 15:15
Makes very interesting reading. There are a few things that struck me:
1) I was surprised that he was at the hearing on his own without any club/legal assistance.
2) He lied with regard to the comments he made to the written press after the match, saying in an e mail that they were said in private at Carrington and going back on it at the hearing. That beggars belief as there would have been lots of voice recorders at the PC.
3) He made no apology to the referee at any stage. He would have had ample opportunity to do that at the Saracens game.
4) His main defence seemed to be that he was in a highly emotional state when passions were running high. I would assume that he would ensure that his players remained calm under pressure and therefore should he not be able to do the same, remain calm under pressure.
5) There were a couple of sentences that are really worrying; 'he showed little or no insight as to the prejudicial nature of his words and their inevitably damaging and toxic effect. His comments were not clumsy, they were deliberate and intentional.'
I just wonder if he is deliberately using as this as a psychological tool to reinforce the 'them and us' to motivate the players into a 'circle the wagons' mentality?

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
SimonG19 (IP Logged)
22 November, 2017 15:29
Quote:
clutch
Oh come on, we all want to hear what they have to say straight after.

You might but I honestly don't. A few hours later or the following day when there has been time for reflection and to give a considered view is another matter.

The current desire to televise the modern equivalent of bear baiting does little for me I'm afraid but then again that is true for much modern television.

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
22 November, 2017 17:01
Trial by media is de rigeur unfortunately.

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
22 November, 2017 17:02
Yeah, it's not for me either. The whole point of it, of course, is the hope for moments like that provided by Dimes. Not that that excuses it, but I could do without it.

Here in Oz, hey interview a player as he is leaving the pitch at half time. Said player often can barely talk.



Unhappiness, where's when I was young
And we didn't give a damn
'Cause we were raised
To see life as a fun and take it if we can

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
HaleShark (IP Logged)
22 November, 2017 17:37
Quote:
ale shark

I simply don't think it's fair or reasonable that coaches get microphone thrust in their face either during or immediately after the games, regardless of the result. I think BT need to rethink their approach to the post-match, sat round a table with replays, discussion.

It does annoy me one one hand that coaches have to give their comments so close after a game has just ended, it's the same in football and there's a lot of people in both sports that incur the wrath of the authorities for comments made in the heat of the moment. But we do want to hear what the coaches/managers say, especially if there's been controversial decisions by the referee. The flip side is that many other coaches manage to control themselves and perhaps pursue another direction in questioning the referees. We perhaps need to look at that option, especially if point-deduction is an option. we're not in any position to ship league points right now.

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
Olyy (IP Logged)
22 November, 2017 18:40
Quote:
PoyntonShark
Yeah, it's not for me either. The whole point of it, of course, is the hope for moments like that provided by Dimes. Not that that excuses it, but I could do without it.
Here in Oz, hey interview a player as he is leaving the pitch at half time. Said player often can barely talk.
BT sport have started doing the half time interview occasionally, I hate it

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
emerging shark (IP Logged)
22 November, 2017 18:45
How does Mallinder then manage to control his emotions? oh stupid question.. I know the answer.

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
22 November, 2017 22:36
Maybe they should put Robbie Dixon up for post match interviews - long time employee and paid to keep things clean:-

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Az7hmvaCQAAYRAL.jpg



https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4248/34452231260_b77f3695e4_t.jpg
Dis mus be da place

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
Major Bloodnok (IP Logged)
22 November, 2017 22:58
"So, Robbie, what was your view on events today?

"Smashin'"

"And how did you feel the youngsters got on?"

"Smashin'"


"And what did you think of that decision at the end of the game?"

"Smashin'"



http://v4admin.sportnetwork.net/upload/101/101_0_1475852289.jpghttp://www.sportnetwork.net/mainadmin/img/1011155763860.jpg
Somewhere in the South Stand

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
emerging shark (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 06:22
Major (Sm152)

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
HaleShark (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 07:32
LOL, it would be hilarious if Robbie did the post-match interview.

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
SimonG19 (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 14:51
Could the BBC employ Robbie as an analyst to replace Guscott? Or, better still, as an interviewer to replace Sonja McLaughlan?

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
LJK (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 15:06
I have said before that 'brain dead' interviewing at all sports fixtures is a curse. If these reporters know their sport, Why can't they ask more interesting questions than the b...... obvious stuff, which doesn't actually tell most viewers much that they couldn't work out for themselves at all.
Having said that if the BT contract says the DOR MUST be available after the game then Dimes will have to go back to his other approach from his last time in the doghouse, and say things like 'the referee clearly understood the game and got everything right' and you can make your own judgement as to what he was saying!

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 19:47
I believe Dimes has done exactly that on several occasions in the past.

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
Toothless Shark (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 20:39
That's definitely the way forward. I think he should eulagise about the skills of the referee to such an extent that BT have no option but to stop doing the interviews.

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
SimonG19 (IP Logged)
23 November, 2017 20:59
Or he could do what the other eleven DoRs do and simply control himself.

It is compulsory to make yourself look stupid on TV.

(Although to be fair that does seems to be the case for Messrs Mourinho and Wenger in that other game).

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 03:28
For making yourself look stupid on TV, the venerable Dr Venter set the bar very high.



Unhappiness, where's when I was young
And we didn't give a damn
'Cause we were raised
To see life as a fun and take it if we can

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
Yareet (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 07:36
So Cheika called the officials “f-ing cheats” and gets a slapped wrist...

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 13:19
Had Dimes just been filmed apparently saying something similar contemporaneously, from his place in the stand (or by the bench) I expect he too would have had the same leniency.
I think such things are understandable, even Sir Clive Woodward empathised with Cheika.

Statements made to the press post-match are a different thing entirely. He had had a few minutes to compose himself and as the panel agreed Dimes' words to the press were calculated and intentional.
Whereas Cheika's post match comments were acceptable.
Quote:
press reports of post-match comments.
Australia coach Michael Cheika began his news conference by saying “we’ve got a no excuses culture, we had our chances” but could not resist being dragged into the TMO issue.
“I‘m not going to rank them, it’s not the academy awards,” he said of the three big calls that went against his team.
“The thing I‘m not sure about the process. How many replays for one incident and how many for another? He (the TMO) probably just makes his own mind up whatever he wants.”
They did indeed seem to take a long time for some of the referrals.

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
SimonG19 (IP Logged)
24 November, 2017 14:18
Quote:
PoyntonShark
For making yourself look stupid on TV, the venerable Dr Venter set the bar very high.

Fair point!

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
hilly07 (IP Logged)
04 January, 2018 08:37
[rugbyreferee.net]

O joy we have been given Ben Whitehouse for the home Lyon game.

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
serge (IP Logged)
04 January, 2018 14:47
The argument that passions run high and there is no time to control those emotions is moot as the same rules apply to players who play the game and interact with the referee in real time. They cannot abuse the referee on the pitch, just as a coach cannot afterwards.

The game is bigger than Sale and its coaches desire to win. Video Referee is not the panacea that was hoped for, and like it or not the referee is the best way to enforce the laws of the game and generate a spectacle that attracts paying supporters and viewers.

Instead of providing excuses, it is time that Diamond found ways to curb his behaviour. I read somewhere he was donating 5000 to the players party fund if he was found guilty again, so financial incentives havent worked. What else is there? Pain? Religion? Points deductions? RFU patience is wearing thin it seems.

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
04 January, 2018 18:26
Hopefully Ben Whitehouse will assist by giving accurate verbal and hand signal indications of what he is actually awarding any penalties for, so as not to spark any criticism.
It goes without saying Dimes must behave as an exemplar in front of the press. It's in his job description. Whether he is capable of doing so remains to be seen....then it will become up to Simon Orange to take action.

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
franknfurter (IP Logged)
06 January, 2018 00:08
" I read somewhere he was donating 5000 to the players party fund if he was found guilty again"

Surely a charity would be a more worthwhile recipient if true?

 
Re: Dimes- RFU written judgement
LJK (IP Logged)
08 January, 2018 21:14
I understood that the DOR had to be available for post match interview, but just watched the weekend C5 highlights through, and in some cases players (inc. Cipriani) were the ones interviewed, so it looks as though it is not a contractual need?


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