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England v Wales - Try or No Try
franknfurter (IP Logged)
13 February, 2018 22:13
World Rugby say Wales should have been awarded a try

[www.bbc.com]

What is the point of this really?

The Referee asked for TMO intervention.
TMO gave the verdict as he saw it.
Referee accepted TMO decision

End of story.


Two points I would like to make.
The TMO could not make a wrong decision. The decision he made was what he considered to be true and accurate given the footage seen and the question asked.

The referee, although asking for the TMO to intervene, did not have to accept the decision and could have ruled himself.

For me, an ardent England supporter, it was a try.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13/02/2018 22:15 by franknfurter.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
13 February, 2018 23:22
Knock on by the winger. No Try.



https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4248/34452231260_b77f3695e4_t.jpg
Dis mus be da place

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
ale shark (IP Logged)
14 February, 2018 08:29
What's the point indeed? Who cares? Any Welshman with a bit of dignity would recognise it was a knock on into the end zone.

Perhaps Gatland and Howley can agree to scratch off their bonus point try against Scotland that came off a blatant and very obvious forward pass. No, thought not.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
Flumpty (IP Logged)
14 February, 2018 09:10
The ref said No Try.

The End.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
14 February, 2018 12:02
Not according to the Ref's bosses. Allegedly.



Unhappiness, where's when I was young
And we didn't give a damn
'Cause we were raised
To see life as a fun and take it if we can

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
emerging shark (IP Logged)
14 February, 2018 12:07
Who would be a ref at that level!!

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
jaytom (IP Logged)
14 February, 2018 12:23
I would say it was No Try and that World Rugby should be supporting their matchday officials to make the decisions as they see them.

For me, the call was correct - Anscombe's hand was rolling off the ball as it was coming to the floor and from that angle it was not clear if he was still touching the side of the ball at the moment it grounded. When the question is 'Try, Yes or No?', it has to be clear cut. If it was 'Any reason not to award a try?' then the benefit of the doubt is given to the attacking team. As there are calls that the winger knocked on in the build up, his biggest mistake was not reviewing that contact in more detail IMO.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
jamestaylorreturns (IP Logged)
14 February, 2018 12:33
incidentally to fill time in on a wet day with no signings to discuss, anyone see a link with footage of the winger knocking on (Guscott says on Beeb you see his fingers bending back?)

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
ale shark (IP Logged)
14 February, 2018 12:48

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
LPCWOOKIE (IP Logged)
14 February, 2018 12:49
yes I saw it on Facebook and Twitter as well, you can clearly see his fingers bend as they make contact with the ball. will try to find a link



Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabris, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
LPCWOOKIE (IP Logged)
14 February, 2018 12:51
he knocked it on



Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabris, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
emerging shark (IP Logged)
14 February, 2018 16:48
That's as clear as mud.. the view of his fingers are obstructed by the ball..

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
LPCWOOKIE (IP Logged)
14 February, 2018 16:50
unless he can flex his ring finger backwards independently of the others(I don't know about you but I cant) then the ball hits his fingers



Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabris, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
14 February, 2018 16:59
The TMO said "No Try" as he did to Frank's effort in RWC2007.



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Dis mus be da place

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
yukon (IP Logged)
14 February, 2018 19:35
Quote:
Mrs Trellis of North Wales
The TMO said "No Try" as he did to Frank's effort in RWC2007.

To be fair, Iím still not over that decision!

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
14 February, 2018 20:24
This TMO got the decision, no try, correct even if it was for the wrong reason.

World rugby, whoever they are, are unfortunately, silly to make any comment other than the say the decision has been made. As I think has been said the TMO (and the referee) can only give what he sees on the replays that he has then available, in some sort of sensible time span. (As Kingston said about that Robshaw incident a few weeks back "you could look at the video for ever and still not be a hundred percent sure".)

Re-reviewing the various videos the knock-on is arguably more definite than the grounding.

As has also been said, I can't recall any Welsh official or even anyone from World Rugby saying the the pass in the previous game was forwards even though it was much more definite than what happened in this last game.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
clutch (IP Logged)
14 February, 2018 21:30
Well technically the ball goes backwards. His fingers bend inwards and the ball goes back into his knee. So applying momentum to knock ons as well which I believe we should then itís fine.

Either way the question wasnít any reason so there was sufficient doubt. Plus it didnt mean that wales would have won. Plus they have have missed the conversion so having kicked the penalty it was potentially only a 3 point swing.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
Yareet (IP Logged)
15 February, 2018 07:00
Quote:
clutch
Well technically the ball goes backwards. His fingers bend inwards and the ball goes back into his knee. So applying momentum to knock ons as well which I believe we should then itís fine.
Either way the question wasnít any reason so there was sufficient doubt. Plus it didnt mean that wales would have won. Plus they have have missed the conversion so having kicked the penalty it was potentially only a 3 point swing.

Two (or four) point swing. They got 3 instead of 5 (or 7).

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
15 February, 2018 07:43
There was about as much chance on that day of Patchel kicking the conversion as of seeing a squadron of Gloucester Old Spot doing laps of the stadium.



Unhappiness, where's when I was young
And we didn't give a damn
'Cause we were raised
To see life as a fun and take it if we can

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
15 February, 2018 08:31
Quote:
clutch
Well technically the ball goes backwards. His fingers bend inwards and the ball goes back into his knee. So applying momentum to knock ons as well which I believe we should then itís fine.
Either way the question wasnít any reason so there was sufficient doubt. Plus it didnt mean that wales would have won. Plus they have have missed the conversion so having kicked the penalty it was potentially only a 3 point swing.
...but what seems to be taken to make the ball going forwards is the direction on the hands as the ball is passed. Elsewhere it was argued that as it hit his knee it wasn't a knock-on, but there has to be a measure of control for it to be a kick (whether foot or knee). If there does not have to be any control then all the incorrectly fielded high kicks that run through the arms but touch somewhere on the lower leg are not then a knock-on. I don't think I have ever heard anyone complains about those.

As regards the touchdown itself, in the end it comes down to opinion. The laws generally don't help in that some common sense wording is missing. While it doesn't state that proper downward pressure has to be exerted on the ball, if the player is not in full control of it, the wording is intended to mean that. Just touching the ball at the time it roughest the ground does not make it a try. By the laws of physics no downward pressure can be exerted if the hand is below mid way. If full downward pressure is used the ball jumps up (unless the ground is extremely muddy).

I don't think the naked eye of most unbiased people would have awarded it as a try.

This has all become trial by television of the TMO. There was a time that referees' decisions were accepted, now we have World Rugby questioning them, and the TMO is part of the refereeing system. I find it strange that Diamond can have a slap on the wrist for questioning decisions when World Rugby think it's alright for them to do it. Either rugby officials can comment in public without redress of they should keep stum.

We will now wonder why every decision made by the TMO which is not cast-iron correct does not elicit a response from world rugby. Is it just certain events that will be singled out. The miss of the forward pass in the Wales-Scotland game was a far more definite error by the TMO but World Rugby said nothing. Why? Was it just because Gatland didn't complain about the decision, odd would it have needed the Scots to complain.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
Conwy Shark (IP Logged)
15 February, 2018 11:18
I watched the game in my local in Conwy which was full of, as you can imagine, Wales supporters following the RGC v Neath game at Colwyn Bay. The general consensus, after much deliberation and quite a few pints, was, surprise, surprise, that it was a try. However it was also the general consensus that the best team won, and really, that should be an end of it !!.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
clutch (IP Logged)
15 February, 2018 12:41
yareet clearly I worked out the % chance of getting that kick to be 50%, which is why I said 3 point swing. Definitely no error there!!!!

The ball starts to spin backwards, so it has to go backwards. It is a genuine question re laws and interpretation. As Dave correctly points out, when a player fumbles a kick through his arms, it is always given as a knock on. Are the refs technically incorrect when doing so?

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
15 February, 2018 13:40
Quote:
clutch
yareet clearly I worked out the % chance of getting that kick to be 50%, which is why I said 3 point swing. Definitely no error there!!!!
The ball starts to spin backwards, so it has to go backwards. It is a genuine question re laws and interpretation. As Dave correctly points out, when a player fumbles a kick through his arms, it is always given as a knock on. Are the refs technically incorrect when doing so?
Nice working out for the 3 points, clutch.

What it all boils down to is that the laws themselves are definite and cane be, as it were, measured accurately. However there is then the interpretation which has less certainty about it, and, indeed people differ in what is thought to be allowable. I still find it bizarre that scrums are 'let go' when the ball isn't even vaguely straight, yet a millimetre of whitewash is looked at infinite detail to find if the correct decision has been made. Woe betide any referee or TMO who messes up for the sake of a millimetre.

For me, as others have said, while the ball might have gone back from the hand relative to the knee the speed of the player, and the relative sped of the knee relative to the rest of the player would have meant the ball had travelled forwards. However, I go back to an earlier point that exact science is trying to be applied to some situations which (other than a massive step forwards in technology) can never be anything other than subjective. Pressure applied to the top of a ball is definitely a try. A hand or finger with slight contact at the side is not a try. There is a definite place somewhere between the two wher a switch takes place, but who is to say where that truly is.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
15 February, 2018 13:55
At the time I thought the ball was in the air when Anscombe touched it and moved it forward to when Watson grounded it.



https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4248/34452231260_b77f3695e4_t.jpg
Dis mus be da place

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
15 February, 2018 14:08
Quote:
Daveaitch
For me, as others have said, while the ball might have gone back from the hand relative to the knee the speed of the player, and the relative sped of the knee relative to the rest of the player would have meant the ball had travelled forwards
Isn't that conclusion irrelevant in determing either a knock-on or a forward pass. These days it would seem that it's the direction relative to the player that is considered the determining factor. We don't like it, but it's the way the game tends to be reffed.

I don't think either the potential knock-on by the winger's finger or the touch by Anscombe's finger were clear-cut. The TMO even stated that in his opinion there wasn't clear enough video evidence to overrule the decision on the field. The important factor there being, as Daveaitch previously stated, the nature of the question asked by the ref. Had he awarded a try in real time I don't think the TMO would have overruled that either had the equivalent question been asked.

I think all this is a bit of a molehill with world rugby indicating that if a downward movement of a hand touches an oval ball whilst in contact with the ground, then Newtons 3rd Law must apply and that therefore in future a try should be awarded by the TMO , but that ignores the relevance of the nature of the ref's question.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 15/02/2018 14:13 by H's Dad....

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
15 February, 2018 14:25
On the first part, H's D, they talk about the the angle of the passers hands, if the pass is made backwards, even if it travels forwards it is not taken as a forward pass. What happens to the player who has passed the ball has no bearing at all in the decision. A touch of the ball is however a totally different beast to a pass.

I'm sure you're right that if the referee had given it there would have been more likelihood the TMO would have given it. I suppose the 'catch' in cricket is very much the same sort of decision. Some cases are obvious and clear cut, but what if the ball touches one blade of grass, or two, or does it take three or four. The whole thing becomes crazy.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
shaftesbury shark (IP Logged)
15 February, 2018 14:28
Quote:
Mrs T
At the time I thought the ball was in the air when Anscombe touched it and moved it forward to when Watson grounded it.

Me too - exactly. I thought it looked from the replays that he had lost contact before the ball hit the ground.

With further more detailed views after the game it seems this wasn't the case but certainly it wasn't not clear from what the TMO had to look at. (Unless you were Shane Williams on commentary as he seemed to be 1000% clear the ball was grounded from the same replays)

I don't believe the TMO had enough clear evidence to say a try had been scored and/or change the refs call.

For me it still comes back to what is the purpose of the TMO. I believe it should be to avoid the major, obvious, on-field errors - this seems to be the intent in other sports too. Not to judge the 0.1 mm differences in everything.

The on-field ref should have the obligation to make a decision, and then the TMO only be used to overturn obvious mistakes. To put the decision to the TMO isn't right for me, it should be up to the ref to make a call.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
15 February, 2018 15:28
÷Shaftesbury, totally agree.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
15 February, 2018 16:25
It currently is, shaftsbury hence the question the referee asks is critical. No-one is suggesting otherwise.
However in future World Rugby guidance now indicates that he now has to accept Newton's third Law as part of his thinking as to what constitutes an obvious mistake.
Any degree of downward force is acceptable. There are apparently no such things as marginal or negligible downward force.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
15 February, 2018 16:37
World Rugby doesn't mention Newton's laws as far I can tell. If there is more force propelling a ball forwards than there is downward force is that then a knock-on or a try?

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
15 February, 2018 17:23
Gravity propels the ball downward, the knock on propels it forward.



https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4248/34452231260_b77f3695e4_t.jpg
Dis mus be da place

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
shaftesbury shark (IP Logged)
15 February, 2018 17:37
Quote:
H's Dad
It currently is, shaftsbury hence the question the referee asks is critical. No-one is suggesting otherwise.

Well... not really.

If I heard right the question the ref asked is if he could award a try, yes or no.

What I am saying is that he should either award the try or not, and then can go upstairs to ask if there is any reason to reverse that decision. This is what happens in rugby league I think.

IMO the ref should make the decision and not put it to theTMO.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
15 February, 2018 18:11
For what it's worth, Shaftesbury, I agree with you. "I'm giving try/knock-on/whatever unless you can give me a definite reason why I can't." Maybe better still, "put what you have on the big screen so I can make the decision." "And don't worry about Newton, he became old hat once Albert Einstein hit the ground running."

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
franknfurter (IP Logged)
15 February, 2018 22:23
Ive looked but can't find the answer, so I'm throwing it out there because I knowyou peeps will know.

When did the law for scoring a try change to touching the ball down in the goal area from:
1 - Applying downward pressure

2 - Be in control of the ball

Or am I just dreaming?

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
15 February, 2018 22:31
Dreaming. If the ball is already over the line 2. does not apply, downward pressure is sufficient.
Einstein never did hit the ground running, he waved to the crowd instead.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
15 February, 2018 23:21
Quote:
DaveAitch
... "And don't worry about Newton, he became old hat once Albert Einstein hit the ground running."

Relativistic rugby. Now that could be interesting, if a tad difficult to watch. At what speed would the ball appear to be approximately spherical? (Assuming its direction of travel is along its long axis.)



http://v4admin.sportnetwork.net/upload/101/101_0_1475852289.jpghttp://www.sportnetwork.net/mainadmin/img/1011155763860.jpg
Somewhere in the South Stand

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
16 February, 2018 01:40
Not entirely dreaming Frank

In the law there are 2 ways of grounding the ball

1. By holding it and touching the ground with it; or
2. By pressing down on it with a hand or hands, arm or arms, or the front of the playerís body from waist to neck.


The 'pressing down on it' part surely means the same as applying downward pressure. Although it doesn't appear to be reffed that way any more, simply being in contact with the ball on the ground is enough.

World Rugby definition of holding is

Holding the ball: Being in possession of the ball in the hand or hands or in the arm or arms.

To me that implies control, if you don't have control you can't be in possession, however, this definition seems to be stretched to the limit when scoring a try, as simply remaining in contact with the ball until it touches the ground appears to be sufficient these days.


Back to your question, I don't know when or even if these definitions changed.



Unhappiness, where's when I was young
And we didn't give a damn
'Cause we were raised
To see life as a fun and take it if we can

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
16 February, 2018 11:02
"Grounding the ball" does not necessarily involve having control or possession of the ball you must merely be the first to do so.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
franknfurter (IP Logged)
16 February, 2018 11:53
Ah well, dreaming it is.
I just recall that three or four seasons ago tries were not give for not having contol of the ball.

Snooze snooze

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
16 February, 2018 13:38
Quote:
Hobler
"Grounding the ball" does not necessarily involve having control or possession of the ball you must merely be the first to do so.

Is that actually quoted anywhere in the laws. I'm struggling to find much clarity on what is actually required.



Unhappiness, where's when I was young
And we didn't give a damn
'Cause we were raised
To see life as a fun and take it if we can

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
Flumpty (IP Logged)
16 February, 2018 17:26
You're also looking for downward pressure, as opposed to forward and downward pressure. If the ball isn't under control, then it's easy for the ref to give it as a knock-on.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
16 February, 2018 18:29
It doesn't need to state it Poynters. In fact it's the absence of any reference to possession or control that indicates grounding merely means touching the top half of the ball whilst it is touching the ground. (if the think about it you can't apply downwards pressure if you touch the bottom half!)
The clarification by world rugby effectively means any degree of downward pressure is now deemed sufficient, even that afforded by vector analysis and Newtons 3rd law applying to a finger tip or two.

Forward and downward pressure can be divided into vector analysed forward pressure and vector analysed downwards pressure. A try should be scored if there is any downwards movement when touching the ball provided the top half of the ball is touched.
Both players in the Wales match applied forwards and downwards pressure to that ball. Neither ever had the ball under control yet touch-back (or try) was accomplished.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
16 February, 2018 18:52
What did change, heaven knows why, is that if you are in control of the ball you don't have to apply downward pressure i.e you can swipe it over the ground to just brush the surface. If you are not in control of it you do have to apply pressure. Now being in control of need so to be properly defined. I've always taken it to mean 'in both hands', or maybe between arm and body (but I don't see in the latter cause how you could put it down without pressure.

What annoys me is that laws often do not make it clear what is really intended. A fair whack seems to be left to interpretation. The Welsh touch down was only 'legal' if pressure was applied to the ball on the ground and that form when the player first touched the ball (as he wasn't in full control) he kept contact with the ball until it touched the ground. I don't think you can tell with the video from normal speed cameras if that were the case. It needs the high-speed type to show with more certainty what was the case, and it needs the cameras to be perfectly positioned to be conclusive. With the best will in the world the latter will not happen in every case and in the end someone just has to make a decision.

As regards the earlier touch from the hand of Evans: I think the ball came off his knee, touched his finger and then went to ground without touching and part of his anatomy. It was a pass, so the leaway allowed for that doesn't apply. Although it went back relative to the player it went forward relative to the pitch, so it was forwards. Again it needs better video that what is broadcast to be sure of some elements of what looks likely.

What World Rugby need to do now is fully review all the video and reach a proper conclusion. What they also need to do is to make it clear that the TMO made the best decision he could with the evidence he had available, and considering the time constraints, even if he, in fact, got both parts of the decision wrong - whether that is proven fact or just opinion of someone else. It's easier to be wise when someone has all the time necessary to consider and reconsider, especially so when nothing is riding on what is said.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
16 February, 2018 18:59
Newton's 3rd Law is rapidly becoming the new shades of grey.

The question, assuming that downward pressure was made, is: did the Welsh player maintain contact with the ball from when he first touched to when it touched the ground. Shadowing between his hand and the ball would suggest possibly not, but the off-air video is not of sufficient quality to be certain. (Of course, had it been in control, the question wouldn't have to be asked.)

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
17 February, 2018 20:27
Grounding a ball that is already on the ground in the in goal area does not require control ( as was the case with that non try). My point was that the first method of grounding described in the law, requires a player to be holding the ball.Yet as we have seen on several TMO reviews if a player holding the ball reaches out/down to score whilst beginning to lose possession, the try is given if said player remains in contact with the ball until it touches the ground, even the slightest, fingertip contact.



Unhappiness, where's when I was young
And we didn't give a damn
'Cause we were raised
To see life as a fun and take it if we can

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
18 February, 2018 16:49
Aah but is that a try scored with possession or one scored whilst the ball is in contact with the ground under downward pressure? How would you be able to tell the difference?
As long as he maintains contact with the ball as it touches the ground under downward pressure it's clearly not a knock-on.
If the ground is flat Daveaitch there is always a degree of downward pressure, however marginal it' almost always at least 22 lb/squ.inch!(Sm100)
From World Rugby's point of view they seem to be indicating he did maintain contact, or that's it's wrong to be that pernickety....

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
19 February, 2018 09:55
I don't disagree with that H's D, but downward pressure in this context means from a players hand or upper body.

The problem for me is that the powers that be try to make something an exact science but then, in much of what goes, have to totally ignore applying what are obvious 'transgressions' in other parts of play. The laws, or interpretation of, are amended so it's okay for the scrum-half to stand off-set and then to put the ball in squint. However, to show some muscle they instruct the referees to penalise a few in the first round of internationals, but seem to hve told them to ignore it thereafter.

For me the TMO should be there to prevent gross errors by the officials, not to have to determine the micro-millimetre minutiae.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
fouloleron2002 (IP Logged)
19 February, 2018 09:57
To quote the late Brian Clough, a very respected man from the odd ball game, "It wasn't a try young man, because the ref didn't give it". Basically, the ref is always right even when he is wrong, we just have to live with it. Before we all crucify an official for making a bad call, we should look at ourselves and ask, " Am I perfect?"

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
19 February, 2018 10:11
As we are on Brian Clough, his favourite place was arguably John McGovern. I recall it being said at the time that McGovern could have been a top class rugby player.

Fouloleron, reading that line I can hear Clough saying it.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
19 February, 2018 10:30
I looked, I asked myself and apparently I am.(Sm60)



Unhappiness, where's when I was young
And we didn't give a damn
'Cause we were raised
To see life as a fun and take it if we can

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
19 February, 2018 10:40
Dave - I know Clough & McGovern were close - but not that close



https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4248/34452231260_b77f3695e4_t.jpg
Dis mus be da place

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
19 February, 2018 10:50
Mrs T., the perils, if not of Pauline, at least of autocorrect. I did try to write players, not place.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
Yareet (IP Logged)
19 February, 2018 13:24
Quote:
DaveAitch
For what it's worth, Shaftesbury, I agree with you. "I'm giving try/knock-on/whatever unless you can give me a definite reason why I can't." Maybe better still, "put what you have on the big screen so I can make the decision." "And don't worry about Newton, he became old hat once Albert Einstein hit the ground running."

But there is:

"Can you give me a reason why I can't award the try?" is almost the same wording as you've suggested and signals that the onfield decision is a try. In the absence of any compelling reason not to, the TMO will advise the ref to award a try.

The alternative "Try. Yes or No?" is the opposite.

The latter question was asked which should imply that the ref was not convinced it was a try.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
19 February, 2018 14:43
"Try yes, or no" puts all the onus on the TMO to make the decision. I think it just signifies that the referee didn't really see what happened, unless he, or she, has ducked out of making a decision.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
shaftesbury shark (IP Logged)
19 February, 2018 17:31
Quote:
The latter question was asked which should imply that the ref was not convinced it was a try.

If the ref doesn't think it is a try then he should say just that and ask the TMO if there is a clear reason from the replay why he should award it. If the replay is inconclusive then no try.

"Try: Yes or No" should not be allowed, IMO.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
19 February, 2018 17:37
Semantics surely?

Any reason not to award the try means I'm giving the try unless you can see a clear reason not to.

Try, yes or no means I'm not giving the try unless you can see it was clearly scored.

Both require input from the TMO, both require the referee to make the final decision.



Unhappiness, where's when I was young
And we didn't give a damn
'Cause we were raised
To see life as a fun and take it if we can

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
clutch (IP Logged)
19 February, 2018 17:55
Not semantic at all. I agree. It should be a sensible conversation between two humans. Itís not as if the crowd know what the question is. In league they do it better, which isnít a sentence I write much!! The ref signals the TMO and then indicates whether he thinks itís a try. Itís kind of the same thing as asking try yes or no, or any reason. The only difference being the video ref doesnít speak to the official. Which again makes far more sense.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
19 February, 2018 19:05
"Try, yes or no" should be "Show me the video and I will decide".

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
Yareet (IP Logged)
19 February, 2018 20:57
Quote:
DaveAitch
"Try, yes or no" should be "Show me the video and I will decide".

In that case we need to follow footballís example and have pitch side monitors. Spotting the proverbial millimetre of white line on a big screen from the middle of the Twickenham pitch is nigh on impossible.

 
Re: England v Wales - Try or No Try
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
20 February, 2018 03:19
How does it make sense for the TMO not to speak to the ref? Is the actual decision on the try down to the TMO in league? and he indicates his decision on the big screen. Not currently possible in Union (though of course it could be) as the decision is down to the ref, the TMO only advises.

Quote:
DaveAitch
"Try, yes or no" should be "Show me the video and I will decide".

Given as above, the ref is the sole decision maker, then strictly speaking all TMO decisions should be handled this way, making TMO more a video director. Some refs seem to handle most TMO decisions this way. Wayne Barnes always seems keen to see it for himself and decide. At other times refs seem more keen to put their faith in/make a scapegoat of the TMO.

I suppose how much involvement the TMO or video replay has is dependent upon where we want the balance between getting decisions right and maintaining the flow of the game. I think I agree with Dave that TMO should be used to correct obvious mistakes bit more like cricket where original 'on field' decision stands in the grey areas. This would involve giving TMO authority to overrule ref at certain times.



Unhappiness, where's when I was young
And we didn't give a damn
'Cause we were raised
To see life as a fun and take it if we can


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