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Jackson and Olding Sacked
StalyShark (IP Logged)
14 April, 2018 11:44
Jackson and Olding have had their contracts terminated with immediate effect according to the BBC:

[www.bbc.co.uk]

Whether or not it is deserved has been debated elsewhere so letís not get into that here.

A levels for Redpath in the next few weeks should rule him out as much as weíd all like to see such a prospect there instead of either of them. Could either of them do a short term job for us on the bench for the next two games?

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Monty9 (IP Logged)
14 April, 2018 11:50
I think both will make great additions to any club they join and would like to see them in the Prem next season, but I canít see them doing anything for anyone in the last couple of games this season. Itís being a good few months since they played and just as long since they trained full time.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
StalyShark (IP Logged)
14 April, 2018 11:56
I think youíre right Monty. If no one else touches Jackson how would a one year deal, as back up to AJ sound..? Olding I cannot recall seeing play so in the dark about him. If we have a centre arriving we have no need given the rise and rise of James junior.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Irish_Shark (IP Logged)
14 April, 2018 12:26
Quote:
StalyShark
I think youíre right Monty. If no one else touches Jackson how would a one year deal, as back up to AJ sound..? Olding I cannot recall seeing play so in the dark about him. If we have a centre arriving we have no need given the rise and rise of James junior.

Olding would be similar player to the james' and his test caps are from a north america tour a november test against georgia and in the 2 losing matches of the south Africa tour of 2016

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
clutch (IP Logged)
14 April, 2018 14:41
Maybe it depends on if we qualify for Europe.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
StalyShark (IP Logged)
14 April, 2018 17:13
Quote:
clutch
Maybe it depends on if we qualify for Europe.

As Harlequins were dire against Gloucester it's looking unlikely. Need a Bath backlash.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
emerging shark (IP Logged)
14 April, 2018 18:09
. Itís being a good few months since they played and just as long since they trained full time.
How do you know that? Do you really think they have both been sitting on their @#$%&..
I think Jackson would be an excellent signing. Where's the cover for AJ if he gets injured? Wilkinson is nowhere near ready

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Monty9 (IP Logged)
14 April, 2018 18:48
Well their trial lasted pretty much a month for a start so full days in court is hardly conducive to pro rugby training.

I agree they could both be great signings, certainly Jackson and they both deserve another shot. I was referring to the comment of covering for our last 2 games

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Chris1850 (IP Logged)
14 April, 2018 18:53
Can't see Jackson settling for a back up role anywhere. Having said that, beggars can't be choosers.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
StalyShark (IP Logged)
14 April, 2018 19:06
Quote:
Chris1850
Can't see Jackson settling for a back up role anywhere. Having said that, beggars can't be choosers.

If nothing better appears for him a year keeping his head down and playing when AJ needs a rest might be a decent option for him.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
TrailblazingScot (IP Logged)
14 April, 2018 20:56
Perhaps there is a case for unfair dismissal? Sacked for private text messages and Whatsapp messages that only became public in a trial where they were acquitted.

They are young men, who have behaved poorly, but they were found non-guilty of rape by a jury that were presented all the evidence over an extended period of time. They have lost lots financially and they have been shamed. Some seem to want to drive them to ruin and suicide.

Coming to Sale Sharks would be a mistake. Their past would follow them here. I think France would be their best option for a fresh start.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
RugbyMarvel (IP Logged)
14 April, 2018 21:48
I would happily have either player at the club, yet I donít think Olding fits the mould and PJ wouldnít play second fiddle for Sale. Prefer a Myler type signing at FH to nuture the young lads.

I hope both Olding and Jackson find clubs and further their careers.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Pappje Shark (IP Logged)
14 April, 2018 22:49
I neither want to drive them to ruin or suicide, nor want them anywhere near Sale.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
15 April, 2018 08:20
Having seen some of the evidence presented in the case, I would not want to see either of these two deeply unpleasant misogynists anywhere near a Sale team.



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Somewhere in the South Stand

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Chorlton Chimp (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 10:38
I feel very conflicted about this as they were acquitted in a jury trial. I believe that they should be allowed to rebuild their careers. That being said I would be very unhappy if that was in a Sale shirt.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Olyy (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 11:31
Jackson to Clermont doing the rounds,
Exeter not keen after the emergence of Simmonds

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
serge (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 13:07
2 misogynists who got caught out, but were cleared of any criminal offence. It is my understanding that 90% of British rugby players would have material like that on their phones at some time or another. What happened with the Ulster lads happens at every club, rightly or wrongly. These young men and young ladies are products of modern British, porn obsessed culture, and guilty of nothing but poor luck. When rock stars do this sort of thing they are lauded.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
StalyShark (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 13:31
Rumours:

Olding to Exeter and Jackson to Montpellier.

[www.rugbypass.com]

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Pappje Shark (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 13:54
Serge - not sure rock stars do get lauded any more. And even then, wasnít it ďlaudedĒ just for bedding anything that moved, rather than being accused of rape? As for 90%, itíd be handy to explain why you think thatís the figure - then we can discuss why the behaviour remains inappropriate.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
ageinghoody (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 14:00
Quote:
serge
... It is my understanding that 90% of British rugby players would have material like that on their phones at some time or another ...

I'd be frankly appalled if that's anywhere near accurate! Unless "at some time or another" means received uninvited and immediately deleted.

I was their age in the 1970s and, even in those unenlightened times, exchanges of that tone would have been abominable. We didn't have text messaging then of course, but, wearing my union rep hat, I wouldn't have had much hope of saving their jobs if that stuff had come to light on paper. Or much inclination either!

However, I don't believe they should be branded for life and they should be given one opportunity to revive their careers. But preferably somewhere the targets of the messages don't have to read about them, and, for their own sakes, somewhere the subject won't be raised at every available opportunity.

The southern hemisphere might not be a bad idea.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 15/04/2018 14:08 by ageinghoody.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Siggy89 (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 18:42
Quote:
Cap'n Major Bloodnok
Having seen some of the evidence presented in the case, I would not want to see either of these two deeply unpleasant misogynists anywhere near a Sale team.

Hear hear!

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Exiled Falcon (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 18:43
I would be absolutely horrified and disgusted in equal measures if any of that 90% represented my club.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
muddydwarf (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 18:49
Signing either of those repugnant specimens would send a very wrong message to the very many female fans who support support the club.
My acid test would be this :- would you be happy for your daughters to be meeting these 'men' ?

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
15 April, 2018 18:51
Quote:
Chorlton Chimp
... I believe that they should be allowed to rebuild their careers. ...

Quote:
aginghoody
... they should be given one opportunity to revive their careers ...

Absolutely. Just as soon as they've demonstrated that they no longer consider half the population to be little more than their personal pleasure toys.



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Somewhere in the South Stand

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
muddydwarf (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 20:00
Quote:
Cap'n Major Bloodnok
Quote:
Chorlton Chimp
... I believe that they should be allowed to rebuild their careers. ...

Quote:
aginghoody
... they should be given one opportunity to revive their careers ...

Absolutely. Just as soon as they've demonstrated that they no longer consider half the population to be little more than their personal pleasure toys.

This. Many times THIS.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
StalyShark (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 20:21
Itíll take a club to take them on and direct them towards courses/initiatives to ďre-educateĒ them; we seem to have a good record in turning wayward careers around...

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
ale shark (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 23:05
Quote:
muddydwarf
Signing either of those repugnant specimens would send a very wrong message to the very many female fans who support support the club.

Would it not just send the message that we respect the quick and unanimous verdict, on every charge, of a panel of jurors who had access to far more information than you ever will?

Has a virtuous specimen such as yourself never said anything repugnant, in private, in your life?

You donít need to answer.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
15 April, 2018 23:21
They were acquitted of a specific criminal charge, and no-one is suggesting that they are persona non grata because of that charge. I, for one, would not want them here because evidence from the trial has made it clear that they are repugnant misogynists - a condition that is not illegal, but is reprehensible and deserving of shunning.



http://v4admin.sportnetwork.net/upload/101/101_0_1475852289.jpghttp://www.sportnetwork.net/mainadmin/img/1011155763860.jpg
Somewhere in the South Stand

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
JohnJ of HM (IP Logged)
15 April, 2018 23:24
What Cap'n said!

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Chris1850 (IP Logged)
16 April, 2018 07:40
Quote:
Cap'n Major Bloodnok
They were acquitted of a specific criminal charge, and no-one is suggesting that they are persona non grata because of that charge. I, for one, would not want them here because evidence from the trial has made it clear that they are repugnant misogynists - a condition that is not illegal, but is reprehensible and deserving of shunning.

I agree with those sentiments completely.

Genuine question though. For how long should they remain personae non grata? A year or two, for the rest of their careers, for the rest of their lives? Both have apologised, some might say inadequately. At what point, if ever, are they accepted again?

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
ageinghoody (IP Logged)
16 April, 2018 09:28
Quote:
Cap'n Major Bloodnok
Quote:
Chorlton Chimp
... I believe that they should be allowed to rebuild their careers. ...

Quote:
aginghoody
... they should be given one opportunity to revive their careers ...

Absolutely. Just as soon as they've demonstrated that they no longer consider half the population to be little more than their personal pleasure toys.

"I happily accept the proposed amendment". I was taking the expressions of remorse and self-disgust already made at face value, which is why I said ONE opportunity.

I'm also very aware that some of my youthful actions and words, although not as extreme as those under scrutiny, wouldn't pass as acceptable today. I'm grateful they haven't branded me for life.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
WillC (IP Logged)
16 April, 2018 10:50
I suspect a lot of people (young, old, men & women) have sent texts that would shock you then Major and would probably look very bad if read out in court.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
StalyShark (IP Logged)
16 April, 2018 10:56
Not condoning it but young men in macho environments quite often say things by way of bravado that they donít really ascribe to: ďweíre all top @#$%&Ē etc.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
ageinghoody (IP Logged)
16 April, 2018 12:10
Quote:
StalyShark
Not condoning it but young men in macho environments quite often say things by way of bravado that they donít really ascribe to: ďweíre all top @#$%&Ē etc.

That's true, and, if I'm being honest, the sort of wildly over-optimistic fantasizing I was occasionally guilty of in my teens/early 20s. But that was aimed at me and my fellow hormonal males. I'm pretty sure we never thought it was OK to exchange scornful, derogatory quips about our real or (far more often) imaginary conquests, and certainly not to crow about their clear distress after the event.

As has already been said, the jury heard all the evidence and decided Not Guilty, unanimously and quickly. They are innocent of rape and the fact they were charged should play no part in decisions on their future. That doesn't mean that the appalling behaviour that was uncovered should be ignored just because they didn't do something worse.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
muddydwarf (IP Logged)
16 April, 2018 12:46
Quote:
ale shark
Quote:
muddydwarf
Signing either of those repugnant specimens would send a very wrong message to the very many female fans who support support the club.

Would it not just send the message that we respect the quick and unanimous verdict, on every charge, of a panel of jurors who had access to far more information than you ever will?

Has a virtuous specimen such as yourself never said anything repugnant, in private, in your life?

You donít need to answer.
The verdict aside, a young woman was left with genital bleeding & was crying in the back of a taxi.
The acid test for me is this:- Would you be happy for these people to be around your daughters?
Do you want your sons idolising them?

That's why I don't want to see them wearing the jersey in September.
If the IRFU/Ulster Rugby consider them too tainted to continue to represent them then we can surely do no less.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
16 April, 2018 16:42
Quote:
WillC
I suspect a lot of people (young, old, men & women) have sent texts that would shock you then Major and would probably look very bad if read out in court.

Yes. And?

Does that make it OK, because lots of people do it? Or does it suggest that people (mostly boys) have been (and continue to be) growing up in a toxic environment of lack of respect for others (mainly women)? And that we need to address that toxicity by confronting it and condemning it, rather than justifying or dismissing it.

On another thread, we have general agreement that if a player uses a certain type of disparaging phrase on the pitch in the heat of the moment, then a long ban is appropriate. And yet we have here systematic and long-term off-pitch misogyny of a particularly gruesome nature and there are some who would try to minimise it as youthful behaviour or somesuch. Not having it. Misogyny deserves the same level of opprobrium as homophobia and racism.



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Somewhere in the South Stand

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Chris1850 (IP Logged)
16 April, 2018 16:54
Quote:
Cap'n Major Bloodnok
Quote:
WillC
I suspect a lot of people (young, old, men & women) have sent texts that would shock you then Major and would probably look very bad if read out in court.

Yes. And?

Does that make it OK, because lots of people do it? Or does it suggest that people (mostly boys) have been (and continue to be) growing up in a toxic environment of lack of respect for others (mainly women)? And that we need to address that toxicity by confronting it and condemning it, rather than justifying or dismissing it.

On another thread, we have general agreement that if a player uses a certain type of disparaging phrase on the pitch in the heat of the moment, then a long ban is appropriate. And yet we have here systematic and long-term off-pitch misogyny of a particularly gruesome nature and there are some who would try to minimise it as youthful behaviour or somesuch. Not having it. Misogyny deserves the same level of opprobrium as homophobia and racism.

I agree with your sentiments Major. However, there is a clear distinction to be drawn. Homophobic abuse is a criminal act if charged and proven. Misogyny, at least in the form alleged in the Jackson/Olding case, whilst clearly distasteful of worse, is not.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
16 April, 2018 17:05
Perhaps that's a situation that needs to be rectified.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting criminal action; I'm saying that I consider misogyny to be as reprehensible as homophobia and racism and that I will treat its practitioners with equal disdain.



http://v4admin.sportnetwork.net/upload/101/101_0_1475852289.jpghttp://www.sportnetwork.net/mainadmin/img/1011155763860.jpg
Somewhere in the South Stand

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Chris1850 (IP Logged)
16 April, 2018 17:21
Quote:
Cap'n Major Bloodnok
Perhaps that's a situation that needs to be rectified.
Anyway, I'm not suggesting criminal action; I'm saying that I consider misogyny to be as reprehensible as homophobia and racism and that I will treat its practitioners with equal disdain.

Many, including myself, would share that view.

It is interesting though to consider what the reaction would have been had Denny been found guilty of uttering a homophobic slur. To be clear, he was not specifically found guilty of this.

Presumably he would, rightly, have received a considerable ban from the RFU. However, what would have been the correct action by the Club? Would we all have called for his immediate sacking as well? I am not so sure.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
ageinghoody (IP Logged)
16 April, 2018 17:23
Quote:
Chris1850
Quote:
Cap'n Major Bloodnok
Quote:
WillC
I suspect a lot of people (young, old, men & women) have sent texts that would shock you then Major and would probably look very bad if read out in court.

Yes. And?

Does that make it OK, because lots of people do it? Or does it suggest that people (mostly boys) have been (and continue to be) growing up in a toxic environment of lack of respect for others (mainly women)? And that we need to address that toxicity by confronting it and condemning it, rather than justifying or dismissing it.

On another thread, we have general agreement that if a player uses a certain type of disparaging phrase on the pitch in the heat of the moment, then a long ban is appropriate. And yet we have here systematic and long-term off-pitch misogyny of a particularly gruesome nature and there are some who would try to minimise it as youthful behaviour or somesuch. Not having it. Misogyny deserves the same level of opprobrium as homophobia and racism.

I agree with your sentiments Major. However, there is a clear distinction to be drawn. Homophobic abuse is a criminal act if charged and proven. Misogyny, at least in the form alleged in the Jackson/Olding case, whilst clearly distasteful of worse, is not.

We're talking here about whether we'd want to employ them, not whether they did something criminal. Which they didn't!

I spent my last five years of employment in HR, where I saw regular examples of us hiring people with spent convictions, provided their conduct since that time satisfied us that they had "changed their ways". I'm confident that had we found that a candidate had recently indulged in abuse such as this, criminal or not, it would have disqualified them from consideration until they too could demonstrate a permanent change of attitude.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
ageinghoody (IP Logged)
16 April, 2018 17:33
Quote:
Chris1850
Quote:
Cap'n Major Bloodnok
Perhaps that's a situation that needs to be rectified.
Anyway, I'm not suggesting criminal action; I'm saying that I consider misogyny to be as reprehensible as homophobia and racism and that I will treat its practitioners with equal disdain.

Many, including myself, would share that view.

It is interesting though to consider what the reaction would have been had Denny been found guilty of uttering a homophobic slur. To be clear, he was not specifically found guilty of this.

Presumably he would, rightly, have received a considerable ban from the RFU. However, what would have been the correct action by the Club? Would we all have called for his immediate sacking as well? I am not so sure.

If he'd followed up such abuse with a lengthy exchange of texts to his mates repeating it, boasting about it and throwing in a few new slurs for good measure, I think I might!

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Hymenoptera (IP Logged)
16 April, 2018 18:19
Its come down to your own moral compass on this one, or in employment terms, the clubs moral compass.

Are they really THAT good that as a club you'd feel comfortable asking your supports to cheers them on..I'm not sure. They say any press is better than no press but i'm not sure how sponsors would feel about that one.

There is also the internal impact, i'm not sure how prospective team mates would accept them, it could be a divisive move.

Would I cheer them on for my team? - never, nor would my wife or daughters.

Whilst it may be the case that this stuff goes on out there that doesn't excuse it and having been brought up a certain way, im not sure others should be getting a pass for being brought up differently.

They were acquitted, like many rape cases are.. so I'm happy for them to move on...just not on my watch.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Pappje Shark (IP Logged)
16 April, 2018 20:36
Iíve no doubt thereís plenty of bravado among young men. Iíve no doubt I puffed my own ego up when I was young, lest anyone think Iím trying to claim Iím without sin.

However, regardless of the verdict in this case, a young woman was left distressed and believing she had been raped. For all the bravado of the young male, I donít believe this is a widespread pattern where every young man is potentially leaving women in such a state. Thatís in part what makes these two stand out.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 05:05
There are some unpleasant people around. What I don't know is if Jackson and Olding are actually two of them or just unfortunate to have got caught up in this situation. I can't say I have followed the case closely enough to form the opinions that some hold. I do wonder how many have actually followed it closely and how many have just, as it were, jumped on the bandwagon. Those who followed it most closely, that is in a court of law, would appear to have have decided that they were and are innocent, yet others who have gained knowledge secondhand, or more distant than that, have decided otherwise. In the end it is trial by the mob. Sometimes the mob is correct, sometimes not. Is it here? I don't know.

One thing I do bet, though, is that if they had been established Sale stars there would be some finding reasons to excuse their actions rather than condemning them.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
franknfurter (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 05:16
QUOTE: 'Monetary decision'
On Sunday, a former Ulster and Ireland rugby player told the BBC that he sensed anger among fans in the wake of the decision to let the players go.

Paddy Wallace said such supporters may now "vote with their feet" as they believe their views were not taken into consideration.

Describing the decision as one that was motivated by money, Mr Wallace said: "Ulster felt they needed to protect their sponsors rather than the players involved.

"That could come back to bite them, because a lot of the supporters are thinking: 'Do I renew my season ticket, do I come to the games, do I put money across the bar?'UNQUOTE



Whilst I understand fans frustration at not being considered, or thinking that they are big enough that they should be considered, with the best will in the world, a fan base will not keep you in business. That is down to corporate sponsorship. As such, the piper calls the tune.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 09:18
Sponsors are there to advertise to someone. No fanbase, no-one to advertise to, no sponsors.



Unhappiness, where's when I was young
And we didn't give a damn
'Cause we were raised
To see life as a fun and take it if we can

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
ageinghoody (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 09:44
Quote:
franknfurter
QUOTE: 'Monetary decision'
On Sunday, a former Ulster and Ireland rugby player told the BBC that he sensed anger among fans in the wake of the decision to let the players go.

Paddy Wallace said such supporters may now "vote with their feet" as they believe their views were not taken into consideration.

Describing the decision as one that was motivated by money, Mr Wallace said: "Ulster felt they needed to protect their sponsors rather than the players involved.

"That could come back to bite them, because a lot of the supporters are thinking: 'Do I renew my season ticket, do I come to the games, do I put money across the bar?'UNQUOTE

Whilst I understand fans frustration at not being considered, or thinking that they are big enough that they should be considered, with the best will in the world, a fan base will not keep you in business. That is down to corporate sponsorship. As such, the piper calls the tune.

Fair enough, but almost all of that quote could have applied whichever way the decision had gone.

I'm in a quandary to be frank. I really hope those guys redeem themselves in the future, and how can they start to do that if no-one will employ them? But, for the moment, I for one would struggle to look my wife and daughter in the face while contributing to their wages.

They may well be young and stupid rather than downright wicked, but actions have consequences, and learning that is an indispensable lesson of growing up.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
WillC (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 10:04
Quote:
Major
Quote:
WillC
I suspect a lot of people (young, old, men & women) have sent texts that would shock you then Major and would probably look very bad if read out in court.

Yes. And?

Does that make it OK, because lots of people do it? Or does it suggest that people (mostly boys) have been (and continue to be) growing up in a toxic environment of lack of respect for others (mainly women)? And that we need to address that toxicity by confronting it and condemning it, rather than justifying or dismissing it.

On another thread, we have general agreement that if a player uses a certain type of disparaging phrase on the pitch in the heat of the moment, then a long ban is appropriate. And yet we have here systematic and long-term off-pitch misogyny of a particularly gruesome nature and there are some who would try to minimise it as youthful behaviour or somesuch. Not having it. Misogyny deserves the same level of opprobrium as homophobia and racism.

Major, I am in no way defending their actions and no it doesn't make it ok. Personally I find what they said to be abhorent, however, I think we also need to be careful about making someone unemployable because of something that they said which they thought was in private.

If those 3 or 4 lads had bragged like that talking to each other in private it wouldn't make it any less disgusting but it also wouldn't have become part of the public record. It only came out in court because their texts/whatsapps etc were accessed.

Rather than being totally demonised these guys (and I suspect many of their peers) need educating on respect for their fellow human beings and need to be allowed to show that they can amend their ways.

I would also say that rather than just sacking them Ulster and the IRFU (and frankly all the other unions) need to look at their own culture that has allowed this type of behaviour to either be ignored, or worse, to be seen to be acceptable amongst some of their players.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
clutch (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 12:31
ageingbody I agree, but where do you draw the line when not spending money, due to a moral issue. I'd never spend a penny in that case.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Chris1850 (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 14:21
Quote:
WillC
Quote:
Major
Quote:
WillC
I suspect a lot of people (young, old, men & women) have sent texts that would shock you then Major and would probably look very bad if read out in court.

Yes. And?

Does that make it OK, because lots of people do it? Or does it suggest that people (mostly boys) have been (and continue to be) growing up in a toxic environment of lack of respect for others (mainly women)? And that we need to address that toxicity by confronting it and condemning it, rather than justifying or dismissing it.

On another thread, we have general agreement that if a player uses a certain type of disparaging phrase on the pitch in the heat of the moment, then a long ban is appropriate. And yet we have here systematic and long-term off-pitch misogyny of a particularly gruesome nature and there are some who would try to minimise it as youthful behaviour or somesuch. Not having it. Misogyny deserves the same level of opprobrium as homophobia and racism.

Major, I am in no way defending their actions and no it doesn't make it ok. Personally I find what they said to be abhorent, however, I think we also need to be careful about making someone unemployable because of something that they said which they thought was in private.

If those 3 or 4 lads had bragged like that talking to each other in private it wouldn't make it any less disgusting but it also wouldn't have become part of the public record. It only came out in court because their texts/whatsapps etc were accessed.

Rather than being totally demonised these guys (and I suspect many of their peers) need educating on respect for their fellow human beings and need to be allowed to show that they can amend their ways.

I would also say that rather than just sacking them Ulster and the IRFU (and frankly all the other unions) need to look at their own culture that has allowed this type of behaviour to either be ignored, or worse, to be seen to be acceptable amongst some of their players.

I think the above post is about right. Clearly these guys have a risable attitude to women generally which is wholly wrong. These days, society is rightly more aware of all sorts of distasteful attitudes and seeks to call these out. However, I do feel that such people should receive education as to why such attitudes are deemed to be wrong and why they need to modify their views and be more respectful generally. It is not enough to simply say sorry and hope that makes everything ok.

If they can then demonstrate that they have genuinely modified their views in the light of having received suitable education and guidance then I believe that should be an end to the matter.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
stevene (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 15:16
Quote:
WillC
Quote:
Major
Quote:
WillC
I suspect a lot of people (young, old, men & women) have sent texts that would shock you then Major and would probably look very bad if read out in court.

Yes. And?

Does that make it OK, because lots of people do it? Or does it suggest that people (mostly boys) have been (and continue to be) growing up in a toxic environment of lack of respect for others (mainly women)? And that we need to address that toxicity by confronting it and condemning it, rather than justifying or dismissing it.

On another thread, we have general agreement that if a player uses a certain type of disparaging phrase on the pitch in the heat of the moment, then a long ban is appropriate. And yet we have here systematic and long-term off-pitch misogyny of a particularly gruesome nature and there are some who would try to minimise it as youthful behaviour or somesuch. Not having it. Misogyny deserves the same level of opprobrium as homophobia and racism.

Major, I am in no way defending their actions and no it doesn't make it ok. Personally I find what they said to be abhorent, however, I think we also need to be careful about making someone unemployable because of something that they said which they thought was in private.

If those 3 or 4 lads had bragged like that talking to each other in private it wouldn't make it any less disgusting but it also wouldn't have become part of the public record. It only came out in court because their texts/whatsapps etc were accessed.

Rather than being totally demonised these guys (and I suspect many of their peers) need educating on respect for their fellow human beings and need to be allowed to show that they can amend their ways.

I would also say that rather than just sacking them Ulster and the IRFU (and frankly all the other unions) need to look at their own culture that has allowed this type of behaviour to either be ignored, or worse, to be seen to be acceptable amongst some of their players.

spot on.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Irish_Shark (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 15:40
Being in the Republic of Ireland I'd been following the case closely as it has been all over the news for 2 months now.

From my point of view, the actions of the three men involved, degraded the claimant to a point were she felt violated, and thus she decided she had no other option but to allege rape.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
17 April, 2018 17:16
Quote:
WillC
Quote:
Major
Quote:
WillC
I suspect a lot of people (young, old, men & women) have sent texts that would shock you then Major and would probably look very bad if read out in court.

Yes. And?

Does that make it OK, because lots of people do it? Or does it suggest that people (mostly boys) have been (and continue to be) growing up in a toxic environment of lack of respect for others (mainly women)? And that we need to address that toxicity by confronting it and condemning it, rather than justifying or dismissing it.

On another thread, we have general agreement that if a player uses a certain type of disparaging phrase on the pitch in the heat of the moment, then a long ban is appropriate. And yet we have here systematic and long-term off-pitch misogyny of a particularly gruesome nature and there are some who would try to minimise it as youthful behaviour or somesuch. Not having it. Misogyny deserves the same level of opprobrium as homophobia and racism.

Major, I am in no way defending their actions and no it doesn't make it ok. Personally I find what they said to be abhorent, however, I think we also need to be careful about making someone unemployable because of something that they said which they thought was in private.

If those 3 or 4 lads had bragged like that talking to each other in private it wouldn't make it any less disgusting but it also wouldn't have become part of the public record. It only came out in court because their texts/whatsapps etc were accessed.

But they didn't keep it private did they? They - as Irish says - degraded a woman to the point where she felt she had no other option than legal action. In doing that, in taking it out of the strictly hypothetical, fantasy world of private messaging and into reality and having a real detrimental effect on a real human being, they lost any rights to privacy that they may have enjoyed. One person's right to swing their fist ends at another person's nose.

Had they restricted themselves entirely to obnoxious messages over WhatsApp, then they would probably still be employed, and no-one would know what a pair of utter gits they are.

Quote:
WillC
Rather than being totally demonised these guys (and I suspect many of their peers) need educating on respect for their fellow human beings and need to be allowed to show that they can amend their ways.
I would also say that rather than just sacking them Ulster and the IRFU (and frankly all the other unions) need to look at their own culture that has allowed this type of behaviour to either be ignored, or worse, to be seen to be acceptable amongst some of their players.

I completely agree, apart from the culture extends everywhere, not just Ulster, IRFU, or even rugby clubs in general. We wouldn't be having this much discussion if the case had been about racism or homophobia. It seems that, as a society, we are too willing to downplay misogyny compared with our less forgiving response to other forms of bigotry.



http://v4admin.sportnetwork.net/upload/101/101_0_1475852289.jpghttp://www.sportnetwork.net/mainadmin/img/1011155763860.jpg
Somewhere in the South Stand

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
emerging shark (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 18:01
From my point of view, the actions of the three men involved, degraded the claimant to a point were she felt violated, and thus she decided she had no other option but to allege rape.
That would indicate that she went to the room with them voluntarily.... not defending them in any way but just saying...we might care to look back on a couple of similar high profile football cases as well...

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Pappje Shark (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 18:24
But just saying what, Emerging?

The inference is redolent of the attitude that a man with many conquests is a stud, whilst a woman with the same is a @#$%&. As for football cases, I mentioned on here some lnths about that I wouldnít want Ched Evans anywhere near my football club - itís pretty much the same thing. IIRC either he or his mate was called up by text and then basically came in and took over. I donít know if the same happened here.

But itís irrelevant. Even if she did willingly take two men to a bedroom, it leaves no justification whatsoever for them leaving her feeling violated to the point of alleging rape.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Chris1850 (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 18:38
Quote:
emerging shark
From my point of view, the actions of the three men involved, degraded the claimant to a point were she felt violated, and thus she decided she had no other option but to allege rape. That would indicate that she went to the room with them voluntarily.... not defending them in any way but just saying...we might care to look back on a couple of similar high profile football cases as well...

Emerging is absolutely right.

Major - I would take issue with the implication in your statement. To allege rape is a very serious matter. Both for the alleged victim and for the alleged perpetrators. Either the young lady said 'no' or she didn't. I am sure that the young lady may have felt degraded the following morning but that does not give her the right to allege rape UNLESS SHE WAS ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT SHE SAID NO. If that is the case then of course she should report the matter and, if she feels able, support a prosecution. However, a court of law decided that in this case she did not say 'no', therefore the two men are acquitted without a stain on their character. That is the law and that is how it should be. Unfortunately for them, their name is in the public domain and mud sticks. The young lady retains her anonymity and there is a seperate debate to be had about identifying alleged victims and alleged perpetrators in sexual offence cases.

We all know that rape is a very difficult charge to prove. Unfortunately, that is the nature of the offence and there is little that can be done about it. We have to remember the overreaching principle of innocent until proven guilty, beyond all reasonable doubt and the fact that this may on occasions mean than guilty men walk free in preference to innocent men being wrongly convicted and jailed.

Clearly other issues arose during the trial, particularly the Wattsapp messages and the consequent reflection on their character. However, whilst thoroughly disgusting these messages are not illegal and, as has already been stated, an appropriate course of action would be some education in their attitude to women. Had the two men not been subject to a rape trial, it is unlikely that these messages would be in the public domain and they, like many other misogynysts and bigots would still be gainfully employed in their chosen profession.

I stress that I am in no way defending their attitude to women which is abhorrent. I am however defending the system, which whilst not perfect, is probably as good as we can make it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17/04/2018 18:42 by Chris1850.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Irish_Shark (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 20:34
Quote:
emerging shark
From my point of view, the actions of the three men involved, degraded the claimant to a point were she felt violated, and thus she decided she had no other option but to allege rape. That would indicate that she went to the room with them voluntarily.... not defending them in any way but just saying...we might care to look back on a couple of similar high profile football cases as well...

Judging by your response you aren't aware of the reported circumstances of the event.

She had been at Jackson's house voluntarily with 4 men who all became defendants in the case and 3 other women. At one point she did go up to Jackson's bedroom with him and engaged in some kissing but didn't want to go any further and they ceased and she went back downstairs and shortly planned to leave. She returned to Jackson's room looking for her bag or phone and alleged that Jackson then pushed her onto his bed and started to rape her, Olding then allegedly came into the room and then made her give him oral sex and a 3rd man entered naked hoping for similar. She then fled the room where the 4th man shared his taxi with her and got her home.

Chris saying no isn't exactly the easiest thing especially when you are overcome by shock when such a scenario arises. I've been playing devils advocate with this situation and it's very hard to say with certainty that they did commit the alleged crime, however the situation stinks and I'm more than content that they are unlikely to play for Ireland again.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17/04/2018 20:39 by Irish_Shark.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Monty9 (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 20:49
Judging by your comments Irish you neither are aware of the facts as you missed out the part where a completely independent female witness came into the room and saw them engaging in consensual sex, the same witness stood up in court and and told the jury exactly that.

They have being found innocent by jury who had many more facts than either you or I, but donít tell a story and leave out key parts itís not fair to anyone involved.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Irish_Shark (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 21:48
Quote:
Monty9
Judging by your comments Irish you neither are aware of the facts as you missed out the part where a completely independent female witness came into the room and saw them engaging in consensual sex, the same witness stood up in court and and told the jury exactly that.
I didn't leave that out that part intentionally, I was only trying to briefly summarise and I am aware that her testimony probably led to the acquittals, but i should add that Jackson claimed he only digitally penetrated the claimant which conflicts with her statement. She said "He (Jackson) was like thrusting into her" and "I saw a threesome," and that "when I left the room I didn't feel as if I had just witnessed a rape"

It was a 42 day long court case and when talking with my English brother in-law when he visited over Easter I was surprised by how little of the court case was reported in the UK in comparison to over here.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Monty9 (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 22:01
You may not have left it out intentially but leaving it out while including the points you did paint a very one sided picture you must agree. Iím sure you donít have an agenda but only reporting one side of a story in such a case isnít good form.

Also, just because your brother-in-law wasnít aware of certain facts doesnít mean others werenít. It was reported on every day in certain places.

The fact of the whole matter is, they were proven innocent. The one and only independent witness supported the defendants, it was also claimed on several occasions that the ďvictimĒ had changed her story and was classed as an unreliable witness, so again Irish maybe you should include that side when suggesting Jackson changed his story.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Chris1850 (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 22:23
Are there any significant differences between the morals of Jackson and Olding and James Haskell and others for example? Haskells various indiscretions haven't stopped him representing his country.

[www.google.co.uk]

[www.google.co.uk]

[www.google.co.uk]

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
emerging shark (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 22:23
Irish Shark, I'm fully aware of the case as Ive been following it. I simply quoted you and am not making any judgements. Agree monty9.Pappje I was just stating the facts not making a judgement, so why make an inference that I was?

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Irish_Shark (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 22:36
Quote:
Monty9
You may not have left it out intentially but leaving it out while including the points you did paint a very one sided picture you must agree. Iím sure you donít have an agenda but only reporting one side of a story in such a case isnít good form.
Also, just because your brother-in-law wasnít aware of certain facts doesnít mean others werenít. It was reported on every day in certain places.

The fact of the whole matter is, they were proven innocent. The one and only independent witness supported the defendants, it was also claimed on several occasions that the ďvictimĒ had changed her story and was classed as an unreliable witness, so again Irish maybe you should include that side when suggesting Jackson changed his story.

I was just stating what was alleged by the defendent and used the word alleged where appropriate to make that point. Also they weren't proven innocent they were found not guilty.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Pappje Shark (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 23:23
Emerging - if you didnít intend it as an inference, fair enough. It reads very much like one though, to comment that something might indicate she initially went voluntarily to a bedroom and then ďnot defending them but just sayingĒ. To me, that flies in the face of the right to say no and hence my reaction. But if unintended, fair enough as I say.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
ageinghoody (IP Logged)
18 April, 2018 09:13
Quote:
Chris1850
Are there any significant differences between the morals of Jackson and Olding and James Haskell and others for example? Haskells various indiscretions haven't stopped him representing his country.
[www.google.co.uk]

[www.google.co.uk]

[www.google.co.uk]


Well, I'd say yes there are significant differences of degree and circumstance, and the sanctions imposed reflect those differences.

I've neither the time nor inclination for a detailed dissection of each, other than to note that the first was written six years after a schoolboy event, (which seems long enough to demonstrate a changed attitude) while the other two are from The Mail for pity's sake !

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
WillC (IP Logged)
18 April, 2018 09:18
Quote:
Chris1850
Are there any significant differences between the morals of Jackson and Olding and James Haskell and others for example? Haskells various indiscretions haven't stopped him representing his country.

I have been thinking about this quite a bit over the last few days, not least because I am conflicted between the desire to see these idiots men be given the opportunity to redeem themselves but also a strong feeling that I wouldn't want these men or anyone like them anywhere near my daughters.

I do wonder if there is something rotten in the rugby culture off field though. One of the main reasons that I like the game is the values of respect on the field (and to a large extent the idea that you hammer the hell out of each other for 80 minutes then shake hands and go for a drink together afterwards). I am not sure though that there is the same level of respect shown away from the match.

This type of party and behaviour was clearly pretty normal for these guys at Ulster (and we don't know if other players were involved at other times), there are plenty of stories around of dodgy behaviour, even from the holier than thou All Blacks (players going for a quickie with strangers in airport toilets springs to mind). On the radio the other day they were discussing this issue and someone called in to say that she avoided her local rugby club socials because they were known as somewhere to get casual, rough sex. Clearly only one story but there are enough of them out there to suggest a problem. Even from my own experiences, when I was at uni we would avoid places where the rugby team were having a night out because they were always acting like complete d##ks.

Not confined to rugby by any means but maybe the sport needs to look at its image more generally.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
clutch (IP Logged)
18 April, 2018 13:01
Rugby League has an even worse rep regarding this.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Grumpy Old Shark (IP Logged)
18 April, 2018 14:30
Re the Jackson Olding case, the issues are complex, probably no one including those present fully know what happened that night but a jury who sat through 9 weeks of deliberations took less than an hour to give a not guilty verdict which must give some indication where the balance of the evidence lies.

WRT the texts and messages, yes they were disrespectful and crass but the comments were made in private and I cannot be the only one who has heard worse in locker rooms.

I too have a daughter which colours my views but I am also very aware that some of her acquaintances do not not share her moral compass.

I don't think that the issues only exist within the rugby community.
This is the age of widespread internet pornography and the age when those so disposed regularly 'hook up' on apps for casual sex with total strangers.

I can't help but feel that respect is probably lacking among many males, females and others.

Getting back to Jackson et al, yes their lack of respect was abhorrent but was probably not a sacking offence if it hadn't been for the massive amount of social media commentary on the court case much of which was inaccurate and much of which was misandristic in nature.

The consequence of this was a level of public outrage that left the irfu and ulster with no option other than to end the contracts.

I do hope that those concerned learn from this and their open remorse suggests that they might be doing and I hope that they get an opportunity to get on with their lives as anyone acquitted of an offence should be able to do.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Siggy89 (IP Logged)
18 April, 2018 14:35
I think there are good and bad in all sports.

Jackson and Olding clearly fall into the latter category.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Chris1850 (IP Logged)
18 April, 2018 14:48
Quote:
Grumpy Old Shark
Re the Jackson Olding case, the issues are complex, probably no one including those present fully know what happened that night but a jury who sat through 9 weeks of deliberations took less than an hour to give a not guilty verdict which must give some indication where the balance of the evidence lies.
WRT the texts and messages, yes they were disrespectful and crass but the comments were made in private and I cannot be the only one who has heard worse in locker rooms.

I too have a daughter which colours my views but I am also very aware that some of her acquaintances do not not share her moral compass.


I don't think that the issues only exist within the rugby community.
This is the age of widespread internet pornography and the age when those so disposed regularly 'hook up' on apps for casual sex with total strangers.

I can't help but feel that respect is probably lacking among many males, females and others.

Getting back to Jackson et al, yes their lack of respect was abhorrent but was probably not a sacking offence if it hadn't been for the massive amount of social media commentary on the court case much of which was inaccurate and much of which was misandristic in nature.

The consequence of this was a level of public outrage that left the irfu and ulster with no option other than to end the contracts.

I do hope that those concerned learn from this and their open remorse suggests that they might be doing and I hope that they get an opportunity to get on with their lives as anyone acquitted of an offence should be able to do.

GOS - excellent summary. Agree with everything you have written

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Hymenoptera (IP Logged)
18 April, 2018 15:21
Only thing i would add is that when you sign up to do a job in the public eye, you have certain clauses in your contract regarding behavior and representation...by behaving in this manor, right or wrong, you risk you contract.

They took this chance and are paying the price.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Pappje Shark (IP Logged)
18 April, 2018 19:47
Hooking up for casual sex with total strangers that enjoy it is completely different from an experience that left a woman believing she had been violated. Using an app is no different from ďgoing out on the pullĒ - for both sexes - and having one night stands. But the same applies - the overwhelming majority of those occurrences do not leave one party to the encounter going to the police to allege rape.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Grumpy Old Shark (IP Logged)
18 April, 2018 21:48
Quote:
Pappje Shark
Hooking up for casual sex with total strangers that enjoy it is completely different from an experience that left a woman believing she had been violated. Using an app is no different from ďgoing out on the pullĒ - for both sexes - and having one night stands. But the same applies - the overwhelming majority of those occurrences do not leave one party to the encounter going to the police to allege rape.

And do we actually know that she felt violated or did she panic that she had been photographed and created a cover story - I donít know and I suspect neither do you...

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Pappje Shark (IP Logged)
18 April, 2018 22:20
No, I donít know, Grumpy. But to me, your apparent assumption about the womanís behaviour/reaction/response indicates to me a lack of belief that she might have expressed genuine sentiments. And thatís a systemic issue.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Grumpy Old Shark (IP Logged)
18 April, 2018 23:03
Quote:
Pappje Shark
No, I donít know, Grumpy. But to me, your apparent assumption about the womanís behaviour/reaction/response indicates to me a lack of belief that she might have expressed genuine sentiments. And thatís a systemic issue.

These matters were considered at great length by a jury who had access to all of the available information and they unanimously concluded that the defendants were not guilty.

I'm not sure how closely you followed the case but this may be of interest.

Belfast Telegraph

There is little to support for your view that the complainant was violated but the lack of respect displayed by the defendants has been considered unacceptable.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
19 April, 2018 12:14
Perhaps it's time to introduce the Scottish verdict of "not proven"in English Law.
IMHO it's doubtful their behaviour and actions warrant the description "innocent". More accurate perhaps that there was obvious reasonable doubt that it was a clear-cut double rape.
Using and abusing other human beings is unfortunately still commonplace in our society, by both men and women.

Society has never been "fair" and "justice" is ever more subject to trial, conviction, and penalty administration by media. Whilst Cliff Richards should undeniably be awarded damages, one does indeed have the sense that these two men completely failed to realize that they were subject to a higher standard of behaviour than many in our society.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
ageinghoody (IP Logged)
19 April, 2018 17:13
It seems possible that the days of the Not Proven verdict may be numbered.

[www.google.co.uk]

Also, don't forget that in Scottish courts only a simple majority of the 15 jurors is needed for a verdict.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
19 April, 2018 17:57
The article actually indicates that it may well be the "not guilty" that is dropped! The "not proven" is, as stated, the logical opposite to the Scottish "proven".

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
ulsterlad (IP Logged)
20 April, 2018 00:29
I like many others have been conflicted about this, but reading the Belfast Telegraph daily I may have kept up-to-date date more than some - but less than the jurors who sat through 9 weeks of evidence.

If you believe in the rule of law , as I do, you have to accept they where found not guilty. (Not guilty being different from innoncent is neither here nor there)

Proving rape is a difficult thing, but the jury considered the evidence of her distress, but also an independent woman walked in and was asked if she wanted to join in, she said no and left and said the accuser did not seem in distress.

Their attitude to woman seems to have become the wider issue.anf that is why they have been sacked.

Morals have moved over the years but so has technology.. Is there any bloke who hasn't claimed(often falsely)) some conquest to his friends in the pub? These days those pub conversations happen by text or WhatsApp.

Capt makes the point that if it has been racist or homophobic it would be illegal, except it wouldn't. You can be as racist or homophobic as you want in private, it is only when you do it publicly it can be illegal. These were private conversations made public because of a trial in which they were found innocent..

Over the last few months there have been several high profile rape cases, in which it has turned out the accuser has lied or fabricated a rape claim. Those young men have had their life life stopped for 2 years and impacted forever by false claims. ( I am not saying this was a false claim)

I firmly believe that rape victims should be given annonimity for life, but also believe those accused should also have annonimity until proven guilty (with a caveat that if the police believe there are other victims they can ask a judge for permission to release the name) in which case you would not know of their personal conversations.

These 2 have been tried by the law and found innocent, but tried by social media, found guilty and lost their career because of it. That to me is just wrong, and if you think it is right then we should give up on expensive trials and just have a Twitter vote.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Grumpy Old Shark (IP Logged)
20 April, 2018 09:46
Quote:
ulsterlad
I like many others have been conflicted about this, but reading the Belfast Telegraph daily I may have kept up-to-date date more than some - but less than the jurors who sat through 9 weeks of evidence.
If you believe in the rule of law , as I do, you have to accept they where found not guilty. (Not guilty being different from innoncent is neither here nor there)

Proving rape is a difficult thing, but the jury considered the evidence of her distress, but also an independent woman walked in and was asked if she wanted to join in, she said no and left and said the accuser did not seem in distress.

Their attitude to woman seems to have become the wider issue.anf that is why they have been sacked.

Morals have moved over the years but so has technology.. Is there any bloke who hasn't claimed(often falsely)) some conquest to his friends in the pub? These days those pub conversations happen by text or WhatsApp.

Capt makes the point that if it has been racist or homophobic it would be illegal, except it wouldn't. You can be as racist or homophobic as you want in private, it is only when you do it publicly it can be illegal. These were private conversations made public because of a trial in which they were found innocent..

Over the last few months there have been several high profile rape cases, in which it has turned out the accuser has lied or fabricated a rape claim. Those young men have had their life life stopped for 2 years and impacted forever by false claims. ( I am not saying this was a false claim)

I firmly believe that rape victims should be given annonimity for life, but also believe those accused should also have annonimity until proven guilty (with a caveat that if the police believe there are other victims they can ask a judge for permission to release the name) in which case you would not know of their personal conversations.

These 2 have been tried by the law and found innocent, but tried by social media, found guilty and lost their career because of it. That to me is just wrong, and if you think it is right then we should give up on expensive trials and just have a Twitter vote.

I wholly agree Ulsterlad.

I am also very surprised by the presumption of guilt adopted by some on this board despite the findings of a jury to the contrary and that people are so ready to condemn these lads.

H's Dad misleadingly insinuates that they were found not guilty because a double rape couldn't be proven - that is not the case - each charge was considered separately and on each charge the jury unanimously found each of the defendants not guilty.

For over 800 years most legal systems have been based on a presumption of innocence - I think that it is very dangerous to move from there to 'they were found not guilty but they are still not innocent' - not least because Mr Jackson's lawyers are voraciously issuing suits against such accusers.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
20 April, 2018 10:23
H's D did not insinuate it was anything to do with it being a double rape.
He insinuated the prosecution failed to prove guilt to the crime of rape as far as the jury was concerned for the two accused.

Whilst I applaud and share your ideals GOS, the reality has long since moved on. Trial by media has been a reality for a long time.
The mechanism of justice is also highly flawed...
Prosecution barristers are often young, inexperienced and ill-prepared. Ditto those of the appointed defence unless, of course, the defendant is rich, when the very best are employed who run rings round the opposition.

Presumption of innocence in the eyes of the law is also sadly pretty meanngless when anonymity is absent for those accused of offences, especially sex-related offences. Our media have no moral compass and fail to take responsibility for the effects of publicity.

IMHO that failure has lead to '#metoo' with that sad reality used as a justification for publicizing the names of any accused of an offence.

Better ten of the guilty go free than one innocenct suffering would be my maxim.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Siggy89 (IP Logged)
20 April, 2018 12:40
There's a lot of waffle being written here by some trying to tell us what others are thinking and why they are wrong.

My view is that yes the two were found not guilty but I wouldn't want any club I supported to recruit them.

That remains my opinion despite all the waffle.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
20 April, 2018 19:33
Quote:
ulsterlad
Capt makes the point that if it has been racist or homophobic it would be illegal, except it wouldn't. You can be as racist or homophobic as you want in private, it is only when you do it publicly it can be illegal.

Nope. Somebody else said that. I said that, had there been evidence produced of homophobic or racist messages of similar vileness, people would probably not be as quick to excuse them. Misogyny always seems to be treated as less 'serious' than other forms of bigotry. Somebody will always attempt to shift some of the blame on to the woman.

Also, let's be clear that none of my comments have been about the alleged rape. I have clearly stated that I accept that they were found not guilty of that charge and I have at no point attempted to second-guess or negate that verdict. My beef is that the evidence produced in the trail shows the two men to be deeply misogynist (something that they were not on trial for) and I would no more want someone of that stripe associated with the club than I would want a white supremacist or raving homophobe.

The only people hindering their future employment potential is themselves.



http://v4admin.sportnetwork.net/upload/101/101_0_1475852289.jpghttp://www.sportnetwork.net/mainadmin/img/1011155763860.jpg
Somewhere in the South Stand

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
21 April, 2018 07:55
It's perhaps interesting to reflect on the overall incidence of mysogeny in UK society and amongst young sportsmen in particular. Alcohol fueled "bit of a lad" gone mad?

In Ulsterlad's terms I've never personally thought in terms of 'conquests' or bragging about such things to friends and I can't recall ever doing an intentional one night stand (beyond my exploratory teens). I think that is probably a reflection of my upbringing solely by women, rather than any sort of moral high ground.
However such things are said to be commonplace....and these days are not limited to the male of the species.

Our society in particular seems to almost condone alcohol-fueled behaviour way beyond what the sober self would find acceptable. Some say it's because we are so introverted/inhibited and sexually screwed up generally, compared to the progeny of some other european nations...

I recall one particular european young lady setting out her very detailed 'sexual guidelines' with complete clarity and openness at the beginning of our relationship in such a way that I am pretty sure I blushed.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Grumpy Old Shark (IP Logged)
23 April, 2018 11:50

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
ageinghoody (IP Logged)
23 April, 2018 15:22
Quote:
Grumpy Old Shark
Some commentary...

That starts off pretty well, making thought-provoking points. I particularly like the McCarthy analogy.

Unfortunately from that point, after bemoaning a lack of precise reasons from Ulster Rugby (possibly because of confidentiality clauses in the termination settlement), the writer undermines his own argument by choosing to take as given that they were sacked for the crime the court decided didn't happen.

Where on earth does the idea come from that " ...while a ruling of not guilty shouldn't equate to innocence ... "? That's exactly what it equates to! The legal presumption is "innocent until proven guilty". The accused starts off innocent and can only cease to be so if a verdict of guilty is returned. In the middle of an article entirely based on the wrongfulness of ignoring a jury's verdict, he does that very thing himself!

I think he lost the plot after that. The rest of it seems a loosely connected tirade of "whataboutery", and where were the subs? Some of those sentences, aren't sentences!

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Olyy (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 15:47
Fissler says we're after both of them, on twitter

(Sm8)

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
StalyShark (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 16:32
RugbyPass saying weíre close to unveiling Olding:

[www.rugbypass.com]

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
muddydwarf (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 16:48
Looks like myself & others of my acquaintance will be both saving money & looking for something else to do come next september.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
Chris1850 (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 16:57
Quote:
muddydwarf
Looks like myself & others of my acquaintance will be both saving money & looking for something else to do come next september.

I understand your reaction.

Under what, if any circumstances would you change your mind? Or would Olding always be persona non grata in your view?

Genuine question btw. I am i interested to know if anyone feels whether and how redemption may be possible, bearing in mind he is guilty of a sexist attitude not a crime.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
ale shark (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 17:04
Quote:
muddydwarf
Looks like myself & others of my acquaintance will be both saving money & looking for something else to do come next september.

Good for you muddydwarf. It must have been hard for you to support the club fielding a player who was so recently charged with class A drugs offences. The cocaine trade enslaves and traffics children across the developing world and causes untold misery to millions. Iím not sure if this worse than some private text messages between friends, but each to their own.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 17:10
If that's how you feel muddydwarf shouldn't you be doing that anyway given that mysogeny and similar vulgar objectifying whats-ap messages about women are likely to have been shared by a significant percentage of male rugby players generally. As the article indicates: are you just being reactionary to the unveiling of a common young male societal behaviour amongst those "on the pull".
Do we get rid of players and cancel their contracts if they have downloaded Tinder? Swiping left or right is just as deplorable...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 24/04/2018 17:16 by H's Dad....

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
muddydwarf (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 17:24
My stance is taken because I attend the games with a group of women both young & somewhat older.
I couldn't look them in the face if I was contributing in some small way to his wages.
Sneer if you must, i really don't care what others think.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
muddydwarf (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 17:35
Quote:
Chris1850
Quote:
muddydwarf
Looks like myself & others of my acquaintance will be both saving money & looking for something else to do come next september.

I understand your reaction.

Under what, if any circumstances would you change your mind? Or would Olding always be persona non grata in your view?

Genuine question btw. I am i interested to know if anyone feels whether and how redemption may be possible, bearing in mind he is guilty of a sexist attitude not a crime.

Interesting question.
Personally, I'd want to see him spend some time volunteering at women's refuge centres and/or similar places that cater for abused & scared women.
Spend some time learning just what the street-level effects of those attitudes are.
He's entitled to earn a living of course, but I don't want him here until he's shown some remorse & empathy.

This, Folau, the Solomona affair (you know the media concentrates on the verdict & not the strange lack of evidence) is all looking like becoming a PR disaster.

There are a lot of young female fans in the crowd, it sends quite the wrong message to them IMO.

Do people really see his views as being lesser than those of Folau?

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
MartWhit (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 17:56
I too thionk its a question of time. Now is simply too soon to forgive and forget. I believe very much in second chances, but that doesnt have to be immediate or unconditional. I believe both these fellas have a lot of work to do to regain any kind of trust, and that can only happen over time.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
ale shark (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 17:59
So the group of females you attend with, are they as outraged as you at the prospect of the signing or are you just volunteering yourself as a sacrifice on their behalf? A very noble gesture either way.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 24/04/2018 18:02 by ale shark.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
muddydwarf (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 18:59
Quote:
ale shark
So the group of females you attend with, are they as outraged as you at the prospect of the signing or are you just volunteering yourself as a sacrifice on their behalf? A very noble gesture either way.

Of the two (of 4) that I've spoken to both have said they will stop attending if Olding is signed.
One of these ladies is my partner. They are both season ticket holders.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
ageinghoody (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 19:04
Quote:
Olyy
Fissler says we're after both of them, on twitter
(Sm8)

Given Fissler's recent fraught relationship with the club, that could just be fabricated to cause us maximum damage and embarrassment.

Please!!

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
muddydwarf (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 19:57
Quote:
ageinghoody
Quote:
Olyy
Fissler says we're after both of them, on twitter
(Sm8)

Given Fissler's recent fraught relationship with the club, that could just be fabricated to cause us maximum damage and embarrassment.

Please!!


Please let that be true.

 
Re: Jackson and Olding Sacked
24 April, 2018 20:12
Quote:
MartWhit
I too thionk its a question of time. Now is simply too soon to forgive and forget. I believe very much in second chances, but that doesnt have to be immediate or unconditional. I believe both these fellas have a lot of work to do to regain any kind of trust, and that can only happen over time.

I agree Mart. Iím a Port Vale supporter and a few years ago we signed a certain Lee Hughes mid season. There was absolute uproar on the fans forums about this signing. However after a few months at the club he quickly endeared himself to the fans and became a real positive influence at the club ( both in the community and with supporters groups.)

You would hope that if we sign Olding he will show gratitude and humility for getting what to him is a second chance with us to kick start his career?

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