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O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
iBozz (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 15:41
No names, no pack drill, but I was disappointed at the weekend. Read on and all will be revealed!

On Sunday, I attended the U10s Cheshire Cup at Sandbach RUFC where 32 teams representing some 22 Clubs or thereabouts (but not Sale FC - why not?) were playing.

The format was a round-robin and not a competitive knock out contest and congratulations are in order to Sandbach RUFC for an excellently organised day.

The programme states, (selective extracts):

Quote:
The players, their supporters and coaches really enjoyed [last year’s] day, with no pressure to get positive results so hopefully this year’s festival can also embrace that ethic …

Code of Conduct

Please help us to ensure that the tournament is a friendly and enjoyable event by ensuring that all coaches, parents and other spectators set a good example to the players. Please encourage sportsmanship and observe the RFU’s Codes of Conduct …

Games will be a straight 8 minutes long and will be played in accordance with the latest version of the Age Grade Regulations … All games will be centrally timed and begin with the sounding of the loud horn ...

While there is no overall winner crowned, we have decided to award a “core values” trophy to one team in each pool. Each team will be asked to select a team they have played against whose players, coaches and parents have upheld the RFU’s core values of Teamwork, Respect, Enjoyment, Discipline and Sportsmanship ...

All fine and dandy so far. I also found that the games ended at the first break in play after the horn was sounded after 8 minutes.

OK, so in summary:

1) sportsmanship comes first with no “need” to win save the natural desire so to do.

2) there was no winner, in that points scored and games won were not an objective.



OK, so here’s my worry. In two out of seven games in which “my team” were playing and where we were 1 point down at the sound of the hooter our opponents, instead of playing on, deliberately ran into touch with the ball to end the game.

Sunday’s tournament was specifically aimed at promoting sportsmanship and I think that teaching the younger age groups to “win at all costs” is a worrying development.

Am I being overly concerned, or should the emphasis at mini and junior level not be on Teamwork, Respect, Enjoyment, Discipline and Sportsmanship and not on gamesmanship?

Discuss!



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

In loving memory of Her Ladyship - d: 29/12/2007.

You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. RiP

Please help medical research by Folding@Home and join Swanny's Irregulars - PM me for details. Please!


South Stand with The New Birtles Faithful.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 24/04/2018 16:28 by iBozz.

 
Re: O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
NorthernMaori (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 15:55
That sounds both good and bad in equal measure!

The premise of success being based on rugby's core values is commendable and exactly the way to entice and retain mini and (younger) junior talent. Fixtures at these ages should be about respect, sportsmanship, teamwork and skill development above win/lose.

Some may argue that this hinders tactical development/understanding/nouse, however, tactics come through an understanding of the laws and how best to be proactive in your own attack and defence.

It is worrying and surprising that this has happened at mini level, but unless this was encouraged and directed by the coaches it may come down to one bright spark child figuring counting the score and thinking that this way will win a tournament.

Unless this becomes a frequent occurrence at mini fixtures I would hold off declaring a mass panic (not that I'm saying you are doing this now, it is just to emphasise the point). I would hope that RDOs, clubs and parents would encourage children to keep playing until the referees whistle, something that too many adult players simply forget.

In the end though I'd be surprised if that club/team were awarded the coveted "core values" trophy as voted for by other teams, so maybe they weren't the winners in the end.

 
Re: O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
Flumpty (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 16:18
I'm heavily involved in Mini & Junior rugby and sadly the scenario that Ibozz describes is all to common.
Minis rugby should be all about youngsters having fun, playing rugby with their mates. they have many,many years ahead of them to work on "game management" etc.

At Minis Level, the Festival format is ideal - unfortunately, come dinosoar clubs, with dinosoar coaches and dinosoar parents are still harking back to the days of Minis Tournaments, when typically the coaches sons and a few others played as if the World Cup depended on it and all of their teammates had a rugby free Sunday because they "aren't good enough".

I'm aware of quite a few teams/clubs who no longer attend particular Festivals, because the attitude (& sometimes the organisation) of the other Clubs/teams is so poor.

p.s. its generally the "bigger" clubs who think that they are "better" and that it is all about winning.

 
Re: O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
iBozz (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 16:24
Fair points, both of you.

It was two different Clubs who were "guilty" of this tactic in our Pool and there may have been others but as they weren't in our Pool I cannot say as I wasn't watching other games.

One of the two Clubs involved (no names, no pack drill) was no real surprise as they have a "reputation", the other I know nothing about so don't know if it was a lone child or a cultural problem.

And no, neither team won the Core Values trophy for our Pool so there is some justice!



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

In loving memory of Her Ladyship - d: 29/12/2007.

You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. RiP

Please help medical research by Folding@Home and join Swanny's Irregulars - PM me for details. Please!


South Stand with The New Birtles Faithful.

 
Re: O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
Flumpty (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 16:25
Quote:
NorthernMaori

Unless this becomes a frequent occurrence at mini fixtures I would hold off declaring a mass panic (not that I'm saying you are doing this now, it is just to emphasise the point). I would hope that RDOs, clubs and parents would encourage children to keep playing until the referees whistle, something that too many adult players simply forget.

Some RDO's are seen less often than a dodo flying by. Sometimes the interaction between a "club" and Sunday M&J rugby could be described as minimal at best. Some Clubs treat the Sunday M&J teams as a PITA that do nothing but chew up the pitches etc. As for parents, the overwhelming majority are decent folk, who just want to see their son or daughter enjoying themselves, but others are a right................

 
Re: O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
EdinburghShark (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 16:34
I'm not sure if it's a particularly recent* trend, as when I was playing junior rugby in the early 2000s there was just as much of a focus on wanting to win as there is now, and that was primarily driven by the players. The culture around winning vs participation doesn't seem to have shifted much if at all since then, having viewed it as first a player and now a coach at the under-11/12 level. I can't speak to what it was like before then!

Generally, the lads I coach are a competitive bunch, and want to win at EVERYTHING - whether it's a small warm-up 5-a-side game to start training, or a drill to try and make x amount of passes without dropping the ball, or a full match at the weekend. As a coach, I've obviously tried to mitigate this, and make sure that their enjoyment isn't dependent on the result, but rather that they enjoy just simply the playing of the sport, and the result can be an extra bonus.

I've always found the parents very supportive at that age group, but I might just be working with a good crop!



*I appreciate that this is a debatable term, especially on this board!

 
Re: O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
Flumpty (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 16:39
Quote:
iBozz
Fair points, both of you.
It was two different Clubs who were "guilty" of this tactic in our Pool and there may have been others but as they weren't in our Pool I cannot say as I wasn't watching other games.

One of the two Clubs involved (no names, no pack drill) was no real surprise as they have a "reputation", the other I know nothing about so don't know if it was a lone child or a cultural problem.

And no, neither team won the Core Values trophy for our Pool so there is some justice!

I'm now onto my soapbox and I'm on a roll.
The biggest influence (by a country mile) on the conduct and attitude of the players are the coaches.
On Sundays, I'm often reffing Junior rugby. If a team has a coach loudly hollering *** about "missed knock on", "he was a mile offside", "forward pass, forward pass", "put em back 10" etc etc it soon feeds to the players and before long the chuntering, borderline dissent and "sharp practices" start. Comes the end of the match and if team "hollering coach" has lost its ALL down the referee an how (insert rude words here) he was.

On the other hand, if the coaches at pitchside stay calm, the players work things out for themselves, learn a hell about the game and their abilities by working it out for themselves, a good game of rugby is had and at the end of it, one team has scored more points than the other, but all the players have had a good mornings sport.

*** as the two teams walked off the pitch together at the final whistle. One of the players from team "hollering coach" said to one of the opposition players "Its a shame that some of our coaches are such RichardHeads"

 
Re: O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
Pappje Shark (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 17:37
I strongly suspect that the team my son was in was one of the teams iBozz names. And I suspect that we might have a reputation. Anyone clever enough to figure out the search function on here will be able to work it out if they so desire.

I can say that I’m not aware of this being instructed by the coach and so it might have been a moment of insight by the boy concerned.

I can also say that halfway through the festival - which was indeed excellently organised - the coach decided to stop rotating our one sub, and instead haul my son off each time. That is squarely because he doesn’t have much confidence in tackling yet and once we were in the lead, he’d bring him off. The ulterior motive was clear and it did annoy my son a bit. Funnily enough, that coach is his least favourite of all of them.

 
Re: O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
Flumpty (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 18:05
Quote:
Pappje Shark
I can also say that halfway through the festival - which was indeed excellently organised - the coach decided to stop rotating our one sub, and instead haul my son off each time. That is squarely because he doesn’t have much confidence in tackling yet and once we were in the lead, he’d bring him off. The ulterior motive was clear and it did annoy my son a bit. Funnily enough, that coach is his least favourite of all of them.

What a forward thinking and insightful coach. He's created a whole new way of developing a players confidence and skill - lets take the player from the pitch where he's enjoying himself, learning things and improving his skills and have him stand by the touchline instead. What a genius move.

 
Re: O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
Pappje Shark (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 18:15
Do you know the biggest irony, Flumpty?

He’s by a mile the highest-accredited coach in that age group.

The other irony is that his team won 6 and lost 1. My son didn’t play in the first game, which was the one lost. (That leads to another story about the values of the game. He was sitting that one out in part because he’d just taken a place in a Barbarians team. One club was late arriving, so the organisers asked for two players from four clubs. One club refused to share any of their players - despite having a squad of 13! We gave 3 as a result).

 
Re: O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
ageinghoody (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 18:19
AmI missing something, or Is the complaint that, once time was up, the team in the lead ended the game?

I can see no good reason not to do so.

 
Re: O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 18:42
Manifestly iBozz expects teams to keep playing beyond the final whistle/foghorn!

I would also worry about the effect on Pappje's son should his team-mates blame him for missing a tackle (and thereby losing the game) in one of those matches when he wasn't subbed. If you are lacking confidence there is some merit in playing in winning sides and quitting whilst you are ahead....

Having said that whilst team manager of our MRFC side we always shared out gametime amongst our squad if they trained the previous week, despite always ensuring our strongest team started against the strongest opposition. I developed a spreadsheet that kept gametime records for every player.
It lead to all the squad developing well as players and we won the league in our last three seasons.

 
Re: O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
Flumpty (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 19:14
Quote:
Pappje Shark
Do you know the biggest irony, Flumpty?
He’s by a mile the highest-accredited coach in that age group.

One club refused to share any of their players - despite having a squad of 13! We gave 3 as a result).

Qualifications are good. Common sense and empathy for your players are also good qualities to have as well.

So one club decided to keep their players standing around, rather than letting them do what they came to do - play rugby. Wow, that'll encourage the players to keep on turning up each week !

Relatedish. My team/my sons team had a cracking game at the weekend, against a team that they hadn't played before. The other team were crafty. Rather than bringing just boys, they brought a couple of bears with them. Not only were they bear sized, they were bear strength as well. The game went on apace and the bear equipped team really gave it some. Hugely physical, lots of big, strong dominant tackles and contact - all within the rules AND spirit of the game.
Last night, my son was at an area training session and several of the "bears" were there. They struck up with my sons teammates straightaway. As the players were mixed up, sometimes they played with each other, sometimes against each other, but always "full on" against each other. Lots of smiles all night and left the pitch chatting away with each other.
36 hours previously they were all total strangers. Now they were teammates.

The score from Sunday was irrelevant - all they are is yound men who want to play rugby together.

 
Re: O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
Yareet (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 19:54
Quote:
Flumpty
My team/my sons team had a cracking game at the weekend, against a team that they hadn't played before. The other team were crafty. Rather than bringing just boys, they brought a couple of bears with them.

Was this in Bristol?

 
Re: O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
Flumpty (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 21:50
Quote:
Yareet
Quote:
Flumpty
My team/my sons team had a cracking game at the weekend, against a team that they hadn't played before. The other team were crafty. Rather than bringing just boys, they brought a couple of bears with them.

Was this in Bristol?

No, just up the M6, where men are men and sheep are scared.

They were bigger than Brizzly Grizzlies, these were hossing gurt Cumbrian Gadgie Bears (Sm128)

 
Re: O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
Pappje Shark (IP Logged)
24 April, 2018 22:09
H’s D - fortunately, the boys wouldn’t blame in that manner. And there’s plenty of missed tackles in each game, but mini-me is more likely to not commit to tackling and be run past, than to try and to fail. He knows the technique better than several others, but lacks the confidence to use it.

The difference in approach can be shown by when we toured Dublin last last year. My son was a bit upset that he’d not been very involved, so his coach on that day took him to one side and had a chat. He then had one of his best games ever. I asked the coach what he’d said, and he replied “What he needed to hear.” So whatever it was, it worked! The coach last weekend lacked any similar kind of empathy.

On a tangent but related seeing as we are talking about mini rugby, in the past month alone I’ve witnessed a punch to the neck and two near-decapitations, that have been genuinely shocking to see, doubly so given these are U10 games we are talking about. That’s something that coaches really should be instilling in young boys in terms of emphasising good technique and not going high.

Other points from the festival - one of the other dads on my team did call out loudly at one point. The pitch marshal turned to him, smiled and suggested he calm down and that the ref was doing his job just fine. And he was right. The final point, regarding the sportsmanship award iBozz referenced? If I’m right and my son’s team was one of those cited, there’s no chance they’d have won the award. It is very apparent to me that all of the clubs with better teams have bad blood between them at coaching level, so there’s not a cat in hell’s chance that they’d vote for each other.

 
Re: O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
iBozz (IP Logged)
25 April, 2018 00:10
Quote:
H's Dad...
Manifestly iBozz expects teams to keep playing beyond the final whistle/foghorn!

No, H's D, that's not what I thought. The games ended at the first break in play after the horn was sounded, not immediately it sounded. What disappointed me, especially in view of the values set out by and expected by the Organisers, was that U10s would deliberately cause a break in play by running directly into touch rather than play on until a break occurred naturally.




On the matter of spectators, I heard (and have no idea of the veracity of the assertion) that in a previous year a Father had run onto the pitch and abused the Referee. This year, the area outside the touchline was roped off to keep Spectators from going up to the touchline and therefore by extension, onto the pitch. This was politely and strictly policed by Marshalls.

The programme included the following:

Quote:
Please help us to ensure that the tournament is a friendly and enjoyable event by ensuring that all coaches, parents and other spectators set a good example to the players. Please encourage sportsmanship and observe the RFU's Codes of Conduct. Referees will be instructed to stop games until over-excited spectators have either calmed themselves or left. Foul or abusive language towards officials will not be tolerated. In the cae of serious or persistent failure to meet these requirements the tournament organisers may disqualify the offending team or club and the incident will be reported to Cheshire RFU and the governing RFU body of the offending team.

I neither saw nor heard any problems to which the above referred but I think that it is a sad reflection on the game at that level that the organisers felt it necessary to include what should be blindingly obvious and second nature to parents and coaches.

But then I'm a boring old fart so what do I know?



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

In loving memory of Her Ladyship - d: 29/12/2007.

You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. RiP

Please help medical research by Folding@Home and join Swanny's Irregulars - PM me for details. Please!


South Stand with The New Birtles Faithful.

 
Re: O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
Flumpty (IP Logged)
25 April, 2018 08:48
Quote:
iBozz

I neither saw nor heard any problems to which the above referred but I think that it is a sad reflection on the game at that level that the organisers felt it necessary to include what should be blindingly obvious and second nature to parents and coaches.

But then I'm a boring old fart so what do I know?

Did you ever come across the Yorkshire RFU's Silent Sunday Initiative.
I was deeply sceptical about its merits, but after being involved in a couple of fixtures/festivals where it was in place, the children enjoyed it - the hollering coaches and parents less so !

 
Re: O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
ageinghoody (IP Logged)
25 April, 2018 09:08
Quote:
iBozz
... No, H's D, that's not what I thought. The games ended at the first break in play after the horn was sounded, not immediately it sounded. What disappointed me, especially in view of the values set out by and expected by the Organisers, was that U10s would deliberately cause a break in play by running directly into touch rather than play on until a break occurred naturally.
...

Nope, sorry but I still don't get it.

I'm wracking my brain to think of any circumstances where a team in the lead shouldn't end the game. Perhaps if a bonus point try was possible, but certainly not without a secure winning lead.

That makes no more sense to me than the trailing team "demonstrating their sportsmanship" by ending the game when they're in possession. After all the time prescribed is up and wouldn't seeking to extend it for selfish purposes undermine "values"?

 
Re: O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
iBozz (IP Logged)
25 April, 2018 11:01
Quote:
ageinghoody
Quote:
iBozz
... No, H's D, that's not what I thought. The games ended at the first break in play after the horn was sounded, not immediately it sounded. What disappointed me, especially in view of the values set out by and expected by the Organisers, was that U10s would deliberately cause a break in play by running directly into touch rather than play on until a break occurred naturally.
...

Nope, sorry but I still don't get it.

I'm wracking my brain to think of any circumstances where a team in the lead shouldn't end the game. Perhaps if a bonus point try was possible, but certainly not without a secure winning lead.

That makes no more sense to me than the trailing team "demonstrating their sportsmanship" by ending the game when they're in possession. After all the time prescribed is up and wouldn't seeking to extend it for selfish purposes undermine "values"?


Absolutely not, ah.

The purpose of the day was clearly stated to be sportsmanship and enjoyment, winning or losing had no consequence as there were no winners of losers, no prizes, no leagues and no competition save the game itself.

And these are U10s, for **** sake, where the Cheshire Cup and Sandbach organisers were trying to instil Rugby's Core values, they are not professional players or top flight amateurs where results matter and bank balances are at stake.

If there were to be prizes or cups for the winning teams in each Pool then I could see the argument for ending a game, although at that age level I would still be disappointed in the tactic, but this was not a prize awarding competition. The aim was for it to be an enjoyable core values day.



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

In loving memory of Her Ladyship - d: 29/12/2007.

You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. RiP

Please help medical research by Folding@Home and join Swanny's Irregulars - PM me for details. Please!


South Stand with The New Birtles Faithful.

 
Re: O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
Flumpty (IP Logged)
25 April, 2018 11:22
Quote:
iBozz
Quote:
ageinghoody
Quote:
iBozz
... No, H's D, that's not what I thought. The games ended at the first break in play after the horn was sounded, not immediately it sounded. What disappointed me, especially in view of the values set out by and expected by the Organisers, was that U10s would deliberately cause a break in play by running directly into touch rather than play on until a break occurred naturally.
...

Nope, sorry but I still don't get it.

I'm wracking my brain to think of any circumstances where a team in the lead shouldn't end the game. Perhaps if a bonus point try was possible, but certainly not without a secure winning lead.

That makes no more sense to me than the trailing team "demonstrating their sportsmanship" by ending the game when they're in possession. After all the time prescribed is up and wouldn't seeking to extend it for selfish purposes undermine "values"?


Absolutely not, ah.

The purpose of the day was clearly stated to be sportsmanship and enjoyment, winning or losing had no consequence as there were no winners of losers, no prizes, no leagues and no competition save the game itself.

And these are U10s, for **** sake, where the Cheshire Cup and Sandbach organisers were trying to instil Rugby's Core values, they are not professional players or top flight amateurs where results matter and bank balances are at stake.

If there were to be prizes or cups for the winning teams in each Pool then I could see the argument for ending a game, although at that age level I would still be disappointed in the tactic, but this was not a prize awarding competition. The aim was for it to be an enjoyable core values day.

ibozz, on head nail the hit.

sadly, you'll see some u7's & u8's who have got the idea from "somewhere" that its all about winning.

As time goes on, quite often its the U7 & U8 "winners" who drop out early or when they become Juniors, and they've spent to much tome "winning" and not enough time working on core skills and perhaps core values as well and they no longer have the skillset to play more difficult rugby.

 
Re: O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
thekeg (IP Logged)
25 April, 2018 12:04
Linked to the topic, but not quite the same....

Does removing the overriding objective of winning make playing the game as a 10 year old more enjoyable? I think even at that age I’d have found it made the whole thing less enjoyable as a result, the competitive aspect was something I always thought was an integral part of what made it fun. None of this is criticising the concept, I can see some logic behind it to get people involved st an early stage and I realise kids are all different.

 
Re: O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
iBozz (IP Logged)
25 April, 2018 12:36
Quote:
thekeg
Linked to the topic, but not quite the same....
Does removing the overriding objective of winning make playing the game as a 10 year old more enjoyable? I think even at that age I’d have found it made the whole thing less enjoyable as a result, the competitive aspect was something I always thought was an integral part of what made it fun. None of this is criticising the concept, I can see some logic behind it to get people involved st an early stage and I realise kids are all different.

When our two youngsters payed at mini-level, during the '70s/'80s, one of the coaches gave more practice game time to those who were good rather than those who may be less talented.

On "match" days, when we played other Clubs, he would even play one particular player (admittedly good) who never came to training and only appeared on match days.

I hope that today such favouritism would not be allowed, but the result back then was that some of those with less natural aptitude dropped out because they never got to play other than at practice level.

I'm afraid that the "win at all costs" mentality at Mini level can easily put off those who may not be the best players and may ruin their enjoyment of rugby, possibly for life.



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

In loving memory of Her Ladyship - d: 29/12/2007.

You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. RiP

Please help medical research by Folding@Home and join Swanny's Irregulars - PM me for details. Please!


South Stand with The New Birtles Faithful.

 
Re: O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
ageinghoody (IP Logged)
25 April, 2018 13:48
Surely though, showing respect to your opponents is a core value of any sport or game, from rugby to snakes and ladders; and not competing to the extent the rules permit isn't showing them respect, it's patronising them.

OK, when I was 9 I could cope with my Dad "giving me a chance" (actually I'd pretend I didn't know! ), but even then I'd have been distinctly unimpressed if my contemporaries affected to do so. I'd have felt that they were just rubbing my nose in their assumed superiority.

And you should have seen my 8 yo nephew's reaction when he thought his big brother (age 10) was "going easy on him" at Monopoly ! ;-)

 
Re: O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
Flumpty (IP Logged)
25 April, 2018 14:13
Quote:
thekeg
Linked to the topic, but not quite the same....
Does removing the overriding objective of winning make playing the game as a 10 year old more enjoyable? I think even at that age I’d have found it made the whole thing less enjoyable as a result, the competitive aspect was something I always thought was an integral part of what made it fun. None of this is criticising the concept, I can see some logic behind it to get people involved st an early stage and I realise kids are all different.

it certainly doesn't make it less enjoyable.

How it used to be at (say) U9 level
Squad of (say) 18.
Coach picks his "best" 9 players (inevitably his son, his sons mates and the big lad as a winning team.
The team goes off, plays the game and possibly wins (happy times for the coach, as winning is what its all about)
Half of his squad are deemed to be not good enough and don't get any rugby. After a week or two of this happening, numbers start to dwindle, as who enjoys being "not good enough".
The team gets to Junior agegroup and needs more players for a match day team. Unsurprisingly they're now struggling for numbers, as they've told young players that want to play rugby that they aren't good enough.

How it now should be at (say) U9 level
Squad of (say) 18
Coach goes along the line and goes 1.2.1.2. until he has 2 teams.
They play a game against another Club who have done the same.
They may win, they may draw, they may lose - but all the players get the opportunity to play rugby with their mates - which is the primary reason that they turn up.
They play together, have fun together and learn together - and if you're enjoying it, you'll stick with it and keep on going.
At Junior agegroups you've got a squad who have been together for several years.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 25/04/2018 21:55 by Flumpty.

 
Re: O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
thekeg (IP Logged)
25 April, 2018 18:30
I think ibozz and flumpty both make very valid points there, I completely agree that having coaches just picking their strongest team and not spreading the selection around isn’t a positive approach. I certainly don’t think that a winning at all costs approach is the way to go, I guess it’s just a question of how far you go in reducing the importance of winning the match.

 
Re: O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
Yareet (IP Logged)
25 April, 2018 19:54
Quote:
Flumpty

How it used to be at (say) U9 level
Squad of (say) 18.
Coach picks his "best" 9 players (inevitably his son, his sons mates and the big lad as a winning team.
The team goes off, plays the game and possibly wins (happy times for the coach, as winning is what its all about)
Half of his squad are deemed to be not good enough and don't get any rugby. After a week or two of this happening, numbers start to dwindle, as who enjoys being "not good enough".
The team gets to Junior agegroup and needs more players for a match day team. Unsurprisingly they're now struggling for numbers, as they've told young players that want to play rugby that they aren't good enough.

Not just at under 9 level. Sure we’ve all seen exactly the same in adult rugby - particularly uni teams - who are screwed when they get a couple of injuries and the guys who were at pre-season have now disappeared.

 
Re: O/Tish: A worrying trend at Mini & Junior levels?
Sharksladanddad (IP Logged)
25 April, 2018 21:41
Our U7s need no encouragement to want to "win". Even in training when we are trying to drill certain skills there are those children who sulk because they are keeping score themselves and they are not winning. There are others who seem to have no concept of score let alone winning.

Some children are naturally competitive. You can't stop that and it should be encouraged to keep that competitive edge as they grow up. However it's a fine line and needs to be kept an eye on.

With regards to Sunday it could be that these children go to Sale and they see teams kick the ball out at the end of the game when they are in the lead. It could be nothing to do with coaching and everything to do with their own knowledge of the game.

I won't say that competition between coaches doesn't take place, of course it does. As long as that isn't transmitted to the children there's nothing wrong with that either. Anyone who coaches has to be competitive by nature or how can you instill that later. Again fine lines have to be drawn.

It is important to note that these are Rugby festivals, not competitions or tournaments. The distinction is deliberately made as stated in the code of conduct. Festivals are also about learning. If teams take their learning from other games or watching I don't see a problem with that. So a team running the ball out is part of rugby. It's not cheating. If winning is not important then no score should be kept and you should not know you are 1 point down.

Losing a also an important part of learning and to lose gracefully has to be taught.


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