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If you could ask a professional referee a single question, what would it be ?
Flumpty (IP Logged)
10 September, 2018 20:19
It looks like I'm at a session later this week with a current, full time professional rugby ref.
I'm fairly sure that there will be a Q&A session at some stage and If I know what people would like the answer to, I'll keep my ears open.

For me, I'd probably like to know how a professional referee judges his own performance.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2018 08:47 by Flumpty.

 
Re: If you could ask a professional referee a single question, what would it be ?
iBozz (IP Logged)
10 September, 2018 20:28
Why do you not police the put-in at scrums in order to ensure that the ball goes straight down the tunnel thus bringing proper hooking back into the game?



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

In loving memory of Her Ladyship - d: 29/12/2007.

You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone. RiP

Please help medical research by Folding@Home and join Swanny's Irregulars - PM me for details. Please!


South Stand with The New Birtles Faithful.

 
Re: If you could ask a professional referee a single question, what would it be ?
clutch (IP Logged)
10 September, 2018 21:07
Why do all refs allow off feet and in the side at breakdowns especially for the attacking team but occasionally blow for it, seemingly out of nowhere, thus appearing inconsistent

 
Re: If you could ask a professional referee a single question, what would it be ?
Olyy (IP Logged)
10 September, 2018 22:02
Why aren't maul laws enforced in open play?

Every single maul that is formed from a choke tackle is immediately dropped by the defending side, after the ref calls maul, yet I can't remember ever seeing it penalised.

 
Re: If you could ask a professional referee a single question, what would it be ?
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
10 September, 2018 23:00
Quote:
Flumpty
For me, I'd probably like to know how a profession referee judges his own performance.

Should that not be his or her own performance?

I would perhaps go along with iBozz's crooked throw-in at the scrum question.

On the other hand, I would like to ask whoever the body is why, not infrequently, it directs referees to totally ignore the laws much of the time.

 
Re: If you could ask a professional referee a single question, what would it be ?
Crutch (IP Logged)
10 September, 2018 23:08
I agree. The commonplace view seems to be that if refs blow for everything the game wouldn't flow, rather than getting the game to flow by getting players not to infringe in the first place by penalising them when they do.

 
Re: If you could ask a professional referee a single question, what would it be ?
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
11 September, 2018 05:35
Difficult to know where to start. I might start with congratulations for the ref and his colleagues (a bit of simpering rarely does harm) as the standard of reffing in the Prem has improved markedly over the past few years.

I would probably opt with iBozz and Dave, why do top level refs think not straight put ins at the scrum are so unimportant. When previously asked why they don't ping it, they have always said they had more important things to look out for.


I think it worse than stopping the game flowing Crutch, if refs blew for everything the game would become unwatchable in the short term. It has long been my preference for refs to APPLY all of the laws, rather than INTERPRET, the main reason for this being consistency. But to do so now would result in such a dull spectacle that it not really feasible to adopt that approach. They could, I suppose, stagger a more comprehensive approach.

A few years ago they tried to adopt a more rigorous approach to the laws in the Super Rugby competition, the response from the fans was so negative that it was abandoned within weeks. Hence the game in the two hemispheres is seemingly refereed to differing sets of laws at times.



Unhappiness, where's when I was young
And we didn't give a damn
'Cause we were raised
To see life as a fun and take it if we can

 
Re: If you could ask a professional referee a single question, what would it be ?
Flumpty (IP Logged)
11 September, 2018 07:54
Quote:
DaveAitch
Quote:
Flumpty
For me, I'd probably like to know how a profession referee judges his own performance.

Should that not be his or her own performance?


I'm kicking myself over a couple of decisions that I made at the weekend.
I let a try stand that everyone else saw as an obvious forward pass (I was unsighted for the pass, so my positioning wasn't good, but it looked OK to me) & I pinged a player for hands on in the ruck, whereas in hindsight he was perfectly "legal" and playing within the laws.
Fortunatley, neither decision impacted the outcome.

 
Re: If you could ask a professional referee a single question, what would it be ?
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
11 September, 2018 08:02
How long have you been a masochist?
i.e. How do you cope with all the monocular criticism?
Ultimate respect for all those referees who do their job well and take on board the very occasional salient comment. Manchester had a very good one last week-end.

 
Re: If you could ask a professional referee a single question, what would it be ?
clutch (IP Logged)
11 September, 2018 08:38
If you canít see it you canít give it. As long as you communicate that the guy in the ruck is infringing that is more important that whether you were right or wrong?

 
Re: If you could ask a professional referee a single question, what would it be ?
Flumpty (IP Logged)
11 September, 2018 09:02
Quote:
clutch
If you canít see it you canít give it. As long as you communicate that the guy in the ruck is infringing that is more important that whether you were right or wrong?

With the guy in the ruck :- tackle made. Tackler and tackled player go to ground. Tackler releases player, tackled player releases ball. Player arrives and gets a hand on the ball. Ruck then forms around him. I look up and check for offside at rear foot for both teams. I look back and see an obvious hand in the ruck. Blow whilstle, give penalty for handling in the ruck.
At the next break in play, the ruck handler (who was also the captain) says "sir, I thought that I was legal in the ruck, as I was first to arrive and I had hands on. What did I do wrong " ?
me "yes, you had hands on, but then the ruck formed around you"
ruck handler "you're right, but at the point that I got my hands on, the ruck hadn't formed and I didn't have to release the ball"

At the next break in play, I told the Captain that he was right and I'd made the mistake.





....... & I'm still kicking myself about it (I know, I know, I facilitated a safe and enjoyable mornings rugby for 40 players, plus coaches and parents, but even so)



p.s. unlike the ref who had given up his Sunday to ref a game in the afternoon. He rocked up, got changed, started his pre match routine to be told "sorry mate, the game was called off on Tuesday, didn't anyone tell you "?
& Clubs wonder why the number of referees is falling each year.

 
Re: If you could ask a professional referee a single question, what would it be ?
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
11 September, 2018 10:26
Whilst you are obviously right in law on that ruck situation, it doesn't appear to be reffed like that at top level. Usually when a player already has hands on the ball and the ref calls "Ruck" then within a very short while he advises that player to cease trying to play the ball. In any event, a ref apologising and admitting he/she was wrong generally lifts that ref a few notches in the players' view.

Back in the day, at the levels I played I always preferred the ref to communicate well than to get everything right. I think ref numbers were much healthier then (mid 80's into 90's) but we still understood no ref no game.



Unhappiness, where's when I was young
And we didn't give a damn
'Cause we were raised
To see life as a fun and take it if we can

 
Re: If you could ask a professional referee a single question, what would it be ?
clutch (IP Logged)
11 September, 2018 11:27
Communication is the second most important attribute. I find it unacceptable when refs just look and then blow. Shouting hands off, or roll away gives the player the chance, and regardless of whether the ref is wrong or not, they made a call and communicated it.

So Flumpty, you shouldn't kick yourself at the error, as it happens. You should kick yourself for not bellowing HANDS OFF, and giving him a chance!! Unless he had already stripped or significantly impacted on the presentation of the ball, in which case you had no choice.

Either way, such analysis is commendable.

 
Re: If you could ask a professional referee a single question, what would it be ?
Flumpty (IP Logged)
11 September, 2018 11:42
cheers Clutch & Poynton - even a couple of days after the game, I'm still ruminating over should I have done this, could I have done that, might this have been helpful, was that call right etc etc

But on match days things happen very quickly and at most "points of contact", there is usually something that people could get pinged for.

 
Re: If you could ask a professional referee a single question, what would it be ?
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
11 September, 2018 12:19
Quote:
Every single maul that is formed from a choke tackle is immediately dropped by the defending side, after the ref calls maul, yet I can't remember ever seeing it penalised.
Why do you think it's solely the defending sides fault? Surely with a choke tackle (up to the point the ref calls maul), the defending side have been desperately trying to keep the player with the ball on his feet (or even suspended above the ground) and it is the attacking player and side trying everything they can to ground the ball and create a ruck.

When maul is called the defending side can just relax and allow the attacking side to collapse the maul into a heap. They then generally have the put-in.
In those circumstances it's surely not illegal to just stop actively trying to keep him off the ground? Choke tackles are intrinsically unstable with several players around the ball standing tall. An easing of pressure on one side tends to make them tip over.

Completely different, of course, if the maul is organised mostly horizontal and moving (especially with the ball at the back), but with choke tackles they generally aren't.

 
Re: If you could ask a professional referee a single question, what would it be ?
emerging shark (IP Logged)
11 September, 2018 15:54
He will use two important words to you - 'material effect'...I will be very surprised if he doesn't. Can you let us know..

 
Re: If you could ask a professional referee a single question, what would it be ?
Flumpty (IP Logged)
20 September, 2018 08:09
Resurrecting this thread from 10 days ago !

The ref that came was Ian Tempest.
I don't know what the correct protocol/good manners for talking about what was said in a closed meeting, so I'll talk about generalities.

He brought along a wedge of recent clips for us to look at with him and offer our opinions (some were him refereeing, some were of other refs. All were of professional standard games)

In the broadest sense, the question to the group was "at what stage have you seen an "offence" and do you play it out, award advantage, ping X, or ping Y".

From the exercise, you could see that the ways that the laws were interpreted by the refs in the room differed quite widely at times (rather than "material effect", the word used was context). I learned a lot and It'll help me the next time that I'm waving my arms around and blowing my whilstle.


As a related aside - some of the clips featured Sale. Without going into specific details. Another day, Another ref and results would have been different !!

 
Re: If you could ask a professional referee a single question, what would it be ?
BasilBullneck (IP Logged)
20 September, 2018 08:54
Iíd ask the red what single rule change would they want to see to improve the game? Theyíre at the sharp end and are told what to enforce or leave. FWIW to me squint scrum and line out put-ins are the bane of the game.

 
Re: If you could ask a professional referee a single question, what would it be ?
Flumpty (IP Logged)
20 September, 2018 09:12
Quote:
BasilBullneck
Iíd ask the red what single rule change would they want to see to improve the game? Theyíre at the sharp end and are told what to enforce or leave. FWIW to me squint scrum and line out put-ins are the bane of the game.

He did offer the advice to referees in the room that if player/s offer you a gift of a decision (he gave holding on/not rolling away as good examples) you always accept them and act accordingly.

What was enormously refreshing for me to hear, was him referring to "context". He gave the example of him reffing professional athletes with assistant referees, TMO and slow motion replays to help him and reffing a 3rd/4th game on his own which includes a middle aged, 25st prop amongst their number. The laws of the game are still the same, but as a ref in a level 12 game, would you ping the 25st prop for not rolling away as quickly as a pro player ?

 
Re: If you could ask a professional referee a single question, what would it be ?
emerging shark (IP Logged)
20 September, 2018 11:32
It's a pity that we can't bring back the brilliant David Rose to talk to us again.....it was him that used the words 'material effect' in the context of 'how much influence has the offence had on the game....

 
Re: If you could ask a professional referee a single question, what would it be ?
clutch (IP Logged)
20 September, 2018 11:43
Tempest is a fair better ref than Rose though so has to be of benefit.

 
Re: If you could ask a professional referee a single question, what would it be ?
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
20 September, 2018 12:22
Flumpty, your 25 stone prop thought reminds me of the referee at Warrington (on a ground away from the clubhouse). His refereeing was law book perfect. Every not staight at the line was penalised and every forward pass given. The trouble was it was blowing a 100mph wind (not literally, but it felt like it: horizontal rain too) and every line and every pass was squint. Probably the 'best' non-game I've ever had. Then there was Ormskirk with a pond on one 10 metre line. Maybe it should have been called off, but we were there (and some of us actually wanted to play). So, it was a case of 'local rules apply' and if play was heading to, or already in, the pond the ref would blow up for a scrum, moving it to a safe distance from the water hazard. For me, one of the big problems is that referees are less able to work to their own laws/rules. As in many occupations there are too many people with clipboards telling those at the sharp end how to do it. Referees also have to put up with too many supporters who think they know the laws.
As for your own refereeing, players (and supporters) have to accept that you will make mistakes, at least to their eyes. Playing over umpteen years I just accepted what the referee said. In all honesty I can only think of two occasions that the official (referee in one, touch judge in the other) was actually bent.


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