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New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
StalyShark (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 10:50
Out of the blue. Not really world class but needs must I suppose:

[www.ruck.co.uk]

Edit: retracted unfair comment.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/10/2018 22:51 by StalyShark.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
ballsout (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 10:54
He was on the bench at the weekend

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
Surbiton Shark (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 10:55
A warm welcome. I’m sure he’s not just in the squad to hold tackle bags !

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
WithingtonShark (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 10:55
Quote:
StalyShark
Out of the blue. Not really world class but needs must I suppose holding tackle bags etc:
[www.ruck.co.uk]

Don't forget we signed Bryn Evans from D2 and that ended up pretty well...

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
jaytom (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 11:27
A good addition - much needed extra front row options. Welcome aboard Tom!

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
Crutch (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 11:37
Well everyone's been calling for more depth. Suggests Tarus to loose not going as well as hoped.

Gives 3 solid options at 3 (I think Joe Jones has gone well so far in his limited opportunities), and hopefully one that is now allowed to come on for Ross at 1 with Flynn still to return.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
yukon (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 12:30
Quote:
StalyShark
Out of the blue. Not really world class but needs must I suppose holding tackle bags etc:
[www.ruck.co.uk]


Bit of a daft comment that. Call me old fashioned but personally I'd like to give him a chance and welcome the much needed addition to a stretched form row.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/10/2018 12:33 by yukon.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
StalyShark (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 12:47
Quote:
WithingtonShark
Quote:
StalyShark
Out of the blue. Not really world class but needs must I suppose holding tackle bags etc:
[www.ruck.co.uk]

Don't forget we signed Bryn Evans from D2 and that ended up pretty well...

He was already an All Black though.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
WithingtonShark (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 12:51
Quote:
StalyShark
Quote:
WithingtonShark
Quote:
StalyShark
Out of the blue. Not really world class but needs must I suppose holding tackle bags etc:
[www.ruck.co.uk]

Don't forget we signed Bryn Evans from D2 and that ended up pretty well...

He was already an All Black though.

That is true but it didn't stop people forming opinions that he wasn't going to be a decent signing based upon him playing at D2 level.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
StalyShark (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 12:51
Flippant I admit due to the difference between what we have (on paper) and what we had hopes of with Kitschoff and Oosthuizen.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
Jar of Tea (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 13:03
I think we'd have all liked a bigger, more established name.

But given where we are I'm just delighted we've got anyone.

It's a good opportunity for Bristow. Let's hope he takes it.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
thekeg (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 13:10
It’s clearly a pragmatic signing rather than the sort of international player that has been discussed, but given it’s a difficult year to recruit this seems like a sensible option for now. Hopefully a good value addition to the squad

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
Crutch (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 14:07
The only downside to this signing would be if it signalled that we were no longer after the tier 1props we'd been aiming for.

I think that's highly unlikely, so can only see good news here.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
Yareet (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 15:08
Quote:
Crutch
The only downside to this signing would be if it signalled that we were no longer after the tier 1props we'd been aiming for.

I think that's highly unlikely, so can only see good news here.

After the world cup perhaps? Joe Moody'll be 31 by then. About ready for some European Northern Hemisphere cash???

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
Crutch (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 15:35
Anything less than Kitshoff and Shrek will be a disappointment to me!!...

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
Olyy (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 17:01
Will admit I don't know anything about him, but we desperately needed backup so I look forward to seeing what he can bring to the side.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
ballsout (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 17:09
He's the definition of average, don't expect much.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
Barend (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 17:24
Quote:
BO
He's the definition of average, don't expect much.

Average is better than having nothing!

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
clutch (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 17:45
Average is fantastic. Exactly what’s needed if no big SA monsters are available

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
Hymenoptera (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 18:14
Agree with Balls

He made no impact at Wasps, couldn't scrummage and was offed the next season.

He will at least allow Harrison a rest.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
Barend (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 18:23
Quote:
couldn't scrummage

My blue tinted specs are hoping that a year in the French second division will heopfully have assisted in him improving this aspect of his play.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
Rani of the Road (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 19:08
Quote:
StalyShark
Out of the blue. Not really world class but needs must I suppose holding tackle bags etc.

Where do you get off being so completely rude about someone you don't know? No wonder people just read and don't post on here. Maybe you should tell him to his face, let's see if we can arrange it.

Welcome Tom, ignore these miseries the rest of us are happy to have you with us.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 19:23
Quote:
Rani of the Road
Quote:
StalyShark
Out of the blue. Not really world class but needs must I suppose holding tackle bags etc.

Where do you get off being so completely rude about someone you don't know? No wonder people just read and don't post on here. Maybe you should tell him to his face, let's see if we can arrange it.

Welcome Tom, ignore these miseries the rest of us are happy to have you with us.
I have to say I read Staly's post more as a comment on Sale than the player.

Average can be very good, and we should never prejudge anyone.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
dinogyro (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 19:27
Yes, let's give the guy a chance before judging. Past performance is not an absolute guide.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
StalyShark (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 20:18
Quote:
Rani of the Road
Quote:
StalyShark
Out of the blue. Not really world class but needs must I suppose holding tackle bags etc.

Where do you get off being so completely rude about someone you don't know? No wonder people just read and don't post on here. Maybe you should tell him to his face, let's see if we can arrange it.

Welcome Tom, ignore these miseries the rest of us are happy to have you with us.

I hold my hands up. Yes it wasn’t complimentary and yes he could play loosehead far better than I ever could. However, after quite a few clubs in a short career, one start in the prem in 5 years my reaction of “oh he’s not world class like we’ve been talking about” is valid. Squad player at the moment, which we need, but not a Kitschoff or Oosthiezen. Hope to be proven wrong.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
Monty9 (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 20:32
Rani, once again you are absolutely spot on with your comments! Thank you for been part of this forum, your honesty and bluntness is one of my favourite things on here.

How people like Staly can justify a player not been “world class” when they were never lauded as such I will never know. Lost count of how many posts the same person has made about us lacking depth, we add depth; they still complain.

Staly I like you and your posts, you clearly know your @#$%&, but come on.

Annoys me almost as much as the person on the other thread about Yardey who before “wishing Marland the best” had to point out they didn’t like him. Odd beyond belief.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
StalyShark (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 20:57
I would not be world class at anything and so would 99.99999...% of people. However, as fans we are entitled to an opinion and pass comment on our team and others if those posts aren’t intolerant. Great we’ve added depth but not what we’ve been led to expect as yet.

Obviously we’d all like to see Harrison get more time off but we’d salivate at a truly trusted 1.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
Monty9 (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 21:04
Of course you are entitled to your opinion, and your opinion is more than valid. Hasn’t your opinion been that we need to add depth to the squad, and not just focus on world class signing that can take longer? If you are unsure of the answer to that, it has, you have expressed that opinion many many times. So in this instance criticising a player that clearly add depth to a squad, because they aren’t “world class” just makes you look like someone who likes to moan for the sake of it.

Welcome to the club Tom, I could give you a list as long as my arm of players who the “experts” on this board have moaned about before they even wore our shirt who have turned out to be more than just “average”

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
StalyShark (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 21:20
I’m reasonably happy with the small squad we have on the whole and how we run it with an out and out 1st choice a few squad versatility options and this year quite a few academy guys. Front row we have been light in terms of “stars” though Harrison and Webber have been heroic in terms of minutes played. Squads need two top class players in each front row position which we haven’t and still haven’t yet. A Kitschoff and Oosthiezen is the dream.

Bristow’s contract length is undisclosed and therefore an opportunity for him to prove his worth and a potential portent of more heavy cavalry to come. Love him to show us and the club we don’t need a big money foreign import.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
Monty9 (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 21:57
Quote:
StalyShark
I’m reasonably happy with the small squad we have on the whole and how we run it

Amazing, in that case I look forward to reading your future posts to support this statement as I doubt you would say this just for the sake of this thread. Let’s keep pushing everyone involved for some world class signings, while continuing to add depth and focus on the academy.

Just as a reference though, how many people on here had heard of Faf before he signed? I remember several comments about how the Lions weren’t playing him or were putting him at 10 as a sign we had picked up a fringe player, that’s just a recent example, I could go back many years with many examples.

Anyone who signs has my best wishes, star or “pad holder” they all make us better in some way/

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 22:08
Stalyshark I think it was the "holding tackle bags" comment which was insulting.
Would you really say that to his face?
He surely will be playing a part sharing the load with our other props, none of whom many would describe as "world class". No doubt good value for our immediate need of greater depth in the front row.
If Neil Briggs has recommended him as well then it's a good sign.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
StalyShark (IP Logged)
09 October, 2018 22:52
My comment about tackle bags was unfair and subsequently retracted. Apologies.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
ale shark (IP Logged)
10 October, 2018 08:06
Great to be adding squad depth in an area of weakness but we desperately need signings that will challenge and surpass the existing regular starters if we have genuine top 6 ambitions.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
10 October, 2018 09:17
The question we should ask ourselves is therefore..
Can Sale Sharks with Simon Orange financing it and with Steve Diamond as DOR realistically attract such players to play for them?
It's very tempting to suggest that, as the article on Dimes indicates, unless he finds a couple of rough diamond props, we need to realize our full current potential to be qualified for the European Cup with our current squad before such Props (who are few and far between and command top wages) will sign on the dotted line.
To that extent, although he hasn't pulled it off yet, looking at less wage-inflated foreign markets seems the most promising avenue.
We should show patience ....



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2018 09:27 by H's Dad....

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
Crutch (IP Logged)
10 October, 2018 10:13
I agree with the need for patience, but I disagree with the quite often stated doubt about top players wanting to come and play for Dimes.

A great example is Faf and RJVR. Faf recommended RJVR to join the club and RJVR wanted to come back having sampled the club. Both of these things indicate top class players enjoying the club and the management.

I don't see why the same can't happen with the props we need. Having the inside track from players already here, it seems most likely therefore that if we are to get some tier 1 props then they're most likely to be Springboks...

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
clutch (IP Logged)
10 October, 2018 10:31
Signing a load a springboks is a proven formula for long term success.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
Irish_Shark (IP Logged)
10 October, 2018 10:50
Quote:
clutch
Signing a load a springboks is a proven formula for long term success.
It did work for Saracens and Montpellier.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
10 October, 2018 11:43
It's really a combined doubt of multiple factors as indicated.
They all combine so the whole thing needs to be sold as a vision (which works for some but obviously not others), compared to a far more tangible entity like a place in a perennial top 6 'big' well-supported club.
Otherwise Dimes would have long since signed a couple of international quality proven props.
We've been told he's had the resources since Simon Orange took over two yearss ago, and he's been looking all that time.
But do look at that link to the finances of Simon's companies; He's nowhere near as well-funded as i anticipated.

Is it really "success" when Sarries owed £47 MILLION to the SA owners who 'created that success',(that is before they walked away and wrote off the huge debt) and are currently losing £2.8M a year on £17.8M turnover. That's approx 16% of turnover. Concerning.
Some would say the on-field success was bought at the expense of the owners. But at least the club now owns tangible assets: a stadium bringing in an extra £5M a year and with that they have a brighter future..albeit Nigel Wray is now looking for new backers willing to fund the losses....

I seem to remember BK wrote off about half of that amount when he walked away leaving us debt-free (but also asset-free) and our current losses seem to be around a £0.81M a year on £8.3M. That's approx 10% of turnover. Less concerning financially but with a more challenging future.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2018 12:06 by H's Dad....

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
dinogyro (IP Logged)
10 October, 2018 12:28
Quote:
clutch
Signing a load a springboks is a proven formula for long term success.

But won't we just lose them early season, like we have Faf?

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
Crutch (IP Logged)
10 October, 2018 12:35
We have to hope for the global rugby calendar to get sorted out by Pichot!

I think with props the additional issue is their scarcity and therefore teams paying more to keep them and them having more of a choice of suitors.

I'm therefore banking on Faf to influence a few more mates to come over...

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
thekeg (IP Logged)
10 October, 2018 13:33
Quote:
dinogyro
Quote:
clutch
Signing a load a springboks is a proven formula for long term success.

But won't we just lose them early season, like we have Faf?

Only if they are current internationals

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
10 October, 2018 13:51
Good grief Crutch you've just agreed with me on props!
They actually mostly want 40-60 minutes in top quality sides playing in top competitions. That keeps them as internationals for a longer period of time in an all too short career. They are in incredibly high demand and can command huge wages.
Props are therefore somewhat different to most players, even Fafs and RJVRs.
Both of whom incidentally had issues with playing as internationals at the time we signed them.
Whereas Ashton signed for us in order to play for England because he was homesick after more than a decade away from the North West and both he and Melissaa wanted their extended families near-by to help bring up their young daughter Ava. No other club was really considered.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
MartWhit (IP Logged)
10 October, 2018 16:57
I’m more than happy with this addition to the squad. Welcome Tom.

I actually don’t want someone to knock Harrison from his premier no 1 slot right now, as he’s developing apace. But we have desperately needed someone with solid experience and size to play a decent amount of minutes in relief of Harrison. Especially since both Taurus and Flynn are, rightly or wrongly, given equivalent minutes to a third choice prop up to now.

Another star would be preferable if/when we qualify for the HC.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
10 October, 2018 17:32
Quote:
Martwhit
Especially since both Taurus and Flynn are, rightly or wrongly, given equivalent minutes to a third choice prop up to now.
Manifestly that just isn't true in the case of Flynny.
Before he got injured very early in the Wasps match in early April he had averaged about 50 minutes a match in his last 5 appearances. Overall he played in around half of the Premiership games last season, averaging about 20 minutes a game. Those are second choice stats.
Tarus played a similar number of minutes in total last season
, it's only this season where he's only had a few minutes a game.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
ashtonshark (IP Logged)
10 October, 2018 18:07
I think Flynn was coming along very nicely as backup to Harrison before his injury last year. I like to think we would have seen him flourish this season if not for the injury.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
clutch (IP Logged)
10 October, 2018 18:39
They are not second choice stats. Around half the games says it all. He’s appeared when the result had been decided basically. Compare to Chiefs with Hepburn for example.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
10 October, 2018 18:43
Whatever supporters might think about how well Flynn was coming along, I would suggest that MartWhit is actually closer in his assessment.

The judge of how the pecking order sits is selection for Premiership games. From statbunker, in the last six full seasons Flynn has only made one Premiership start, in the 16-17 season. His appearances on the bench are 1/1/4/6/14/19. In those he came as a sub 1/0/1/6/9/7.
In the match he started he played 64 minutes and his 'off the bench' minutes are as follows: 14/0/10/117/126/126 meaning he has played just under 6 Premiership games in total.

Now, of course, someone needs to look at other clubs to see how much time each of their props is given in Premiership games.

Flynn, LV cup, over the same period (but only 4 seasons in total) 4 starts, 7 as sub playing a total of 363 minutes i.e. 4.53 games.
Flynn, European Challenge cup (3 seasons in total): 4 starts, 9 as sub. total minutes 322 i.e 4.025 games

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
Olyy (IP Logged)
10 October, 2018 18:54
Other than established internationals (which we, likely, won't be attracting) I don't think many SH players would move north this close to a RWC. Despite relaxed attitudes to picking NH based players in Aus and SA, staying at home is going to put them more on the radar.

There will be movement at the end of this season, when RWC squads start being finalised, and then the traditional northern migration after the World Cup.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
10 October, 2018 18:55
Tarus: last season he was arguably a proper second choice with 6 premiership starts, and 7 as sub for a total of 369 minutes. This season he has been sub 6 times for a total of 29 minutes.

(As far as I know there is no way of telling what the position the player has actually been used.)

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
StalyShark (IP Logged)
10 October, 2018 19:05
Quote:
DaveAitch
Tarus: last season he was arguably a proper second choice with 6 premiership starts, and 7 as sub for a total of 369 minutes. This season he has been sub 6 times for a total of 29 minutes.
(As far as I know there is no way of telling what the position the player has actually been used.)

Pretty much only at 3 last year and that was early on before WGJ ousted him. Maybe a few minutes at 1 after Flynn’s injury.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
clutch (IP Logged)
10 October, 2018 22:27
Dave i would say Tarus went from very much first choice to very much 3rd choice which is why we have those stats.

Dave i would be interested to understand those Flynn stats but I’m struggling to interpret what you are saying. Reads like he played 126 mins in two games off the bench?



Formally a moaner:-)

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
10 October, 2018 23:40
Daveaitch was averaging Flynns exposure over several seasons, which is irrelevant.
I was indicating he was becoming an equal second choice in his last half season.

Over the whole of his last season he shouldered 540 minutes of exposure on the loosehead side. Willgriff John was first choice and shouldered 1324 minutes. Aulika-ka 677 minutes.
On the tighthead side Tarus shouldered 579 minutes, Harrison shouldered 1974.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
11 October, 2018 02:05
You have your sides confused. John, Tarus and Aulika were the tightheads. Harrison and Flynn the loose (Tarus may have had a few minutes at loose). Your main point holds true though, it was lamented far and wide that Flynn was perpetually left gathering splinters on the bench for the majority of the season, seemingly not trusted to do the job whilst Harrison ran himself into the ground. Only in the latter part did Flynn get more playing time, acquitted himself pretty well, seemingly gained the required trust. Probably not enough data there to properly determine if he had made the breakthrough to fully trusted second choice, but it appeared that way.



Unhappiness, where's when I was young
And we didn't give a damn
'Cause we were raised
To see life as a fun and take it if we can

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
11 October, 2018 04:30
H's D, I also gave the figures for each season as well as giving the average but let's not let the truth get in the way, eh. What I didn't do was a full analysis, but I'm sure you are capable at looking the odd figure up yourself and then enetering them on here to 'prove' your point.
Minutes played by flynn see table below:

Poynton, I think you need to add in 'possibly' to make 'possibly appeared that way'. I bet if you look at the data of props at most clubs there will be a more equal distibution of time between first choice and second choice props that Flynn ever got.

As Exeter got mention let's take their props:
name       13/14        14/15       15/16      16/17       17/18       18/19
           start sub   start  sub   start sub  start sub  start sub    start sub
Francis                 17     3      9    1    2     7     11   5       3    3
Street                                                           2
Hepburn                               4   15    1     4      8   6       3    3
Rimmer       1    14     9    13      0    9    5    12      4   5
Moon        13     8    13     6     17    3   15     6     11   9       3    1
Williams                              7    4   10     8      6   4       3    3
Holmes                                          9     3      2   8       0    2
Low                      4    10      6   10    1     1      1   3

Flynn        0    1      0     4      0    6    1    14      0  19       0    0
Harrison     7   15      6    16     15    6   17     4     22   0       6

Flynn minutes     0      0    10      0  117   64   126      0 126

I have only taken props currently at the club who have played Premiership games, with Flynn and Harrison added in for comparison. (There are all sorts of ifs and buts, such as speniding time injured, loose or tight, or even playing in another position. It would take a lot of delving to do a complete analysis, and probably isn't possible anyway (especially when some 'managers' won't actually confirm injures.)

The 18-19 figures show that at Exeter one side of the scrum has been shared equally with two players getting 3 starts and 3 subs, while the other is 3/3 3/1 with the third player getting 2 subs. Of course Flynn hasn't played this season so we can't directly compare, so lets take the last full season, 17-18. Harrison 22 starts 0 sub, Flynn 0 starts 19 sub. Then just look at the figures for Exeter. One would assume from them that Francis and Moon were number 1, Hepburn and Williams number 2 with the others as number 3 - but even 3 of the 4 others got mre starts than Flynn was given. One might even argue, therefore, that in the eyes of the 'management' that Flynn was only being trusted because Harrison was too exhauted to carry the load. If there was real trust (as there obviously is at Exeter) then Flynn would have started about a quarter to a third of the games. Harrison played 1625 minutes that 17-18 season and was only replaced 8 times. Flynn played 126 miutes, coming on 7 times. That is Flynn played a total of a game and a half, Harrsion played just over 20 games and someone else the odd half game.

Yes, Exeter have a bigger squad and basically Sale only had Harrison and Flynn occupying one side of the scrum. That though is what MartWhit has been banging on about for ages: Sale, for whatever reason, have not been able to attract props of enough quality to give Harrison even something of a rest. If anyone thinks the figures show Flynn as being trusted by the 'management' then, I would suggest he or she is wrong. The problem is that Dimes does make sound bite statements, like 'we are not shopping at Aldi any more'. One might almost say that we are not shopping anywhere, in terms of one side of the front row, since that was said.

No doubt, someone out there will be able to prove, from the figures, that Exeter chop and change props because none of them are trusted enough to give them full game time. If that is so, it might be a good idea to copy it beacuse look where Exter are in the league and look where Sale. I think it's true that since Exeter were promoted Sale have only finished higher in the league in one season. Frankly, I can't be bothered to check that out at the moment.

Oh, just a final word on Flynn. I do think the supporters have trusted in him more that the 'management' have.

edited for errors, but I'm sure there are still others.
2nd edit to add in that I have taken 'a game' to be 80 minutes. That, of course, is usually not correct. A game is two halves of a minimum of 40 minutes each but play and the time only stops at the first error (other than a penalty) which means that most halves go on longer than than the alotted time (remember that international?). Occasionally, in terms of actual proper play, it is less than 40 minutes: when a kicker uses up all the time available to him to prevent there being enough time to restartthe game after the kick. I've no doubt someone will disagree with that but if you look at a couple of recent matches you will know exactly what I mean (I just can't recall which they were).

3rd edit to add Flynn's minutes played.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/10/2018 05:01 by DaveAitch.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
11 October, 2018 05:21
Quote:
H's D
I was indicating he was becoming an equal second choice in his last half season.
No he wasn't. Harrison started all 22 games. Flynn was on the bench for 19 games, Tarus, I presume, for the other three.
80x22 = 1,760 minutes a season per position
Harrison played 1,625 
Flynn             126
Tarus (?)           9


I'm not sure 126 and 9 make an equal second choice on that side of the scrum last season, but there you go. However, that was not the argument. What MartWhit said was that he was being treated as a third choice prop rather than a second choice prop. MartWhit: "Especially since both Taurus and Flynn are, rightly or wrongly, given equivalent minutes to a third choice prop up to now."

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
11 October, 2018 09:06
We obviously have different definitions of 'second choice prop'
Mine is "Benches for Prem games/Champions Cup, often the starter in secondary competitions such as Challenge Cup & Anglo-Welsh"
A third choice prop would "mostly just bench in secondary competitions with occasional starts". They therefore get relatively few minutes in all competitions.

If you can't see that Flynn has been progressing in terms of minutes played in the last 3 seasons and even more so in the last half season (even in your limited view of the Prem.) there is no point in discussion.
Dimes has always kept his first choice front row props on for as long as possible. He even kept Mujati on the bench and kept Cobilas on.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
clutch (IP Logged)
11 October, 2018 09:15
A second choice prop regardless of bench to stretch ratio would get suitable minutes per game regardless of the game situation. Flynn didn’t so is definitely treated as 3rd choice player filling in.

Of course Flynn is literally the 2nd choice but i don’t think that’s the point being made.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
ale shark (IP Logged)
11 October, 2018 09:43
Good homework DA. We need to be at a point where we don't have first and second choice props. Any ambitious club should have two props who are trusted to start and play a minimum of 55mins, whatever the opposition, whatever the competition. Unfortunately, they come with a massive price tag.

Based on appearance stats to date our second-choice props would barely be 3rd choice props in other “top 6” clubs. Finishing top 6 is pretty pointless if we then can’t compete in Europe because our front row isn’t up to scratch. Since ELR retired about top 25-40 props have signed/transferred for the top clubs around Europe and we’ve signed none of them.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
11 October, 2018 11:35
If that's the point being made then fair enough, but that is Dimes' normal modus operandi. It's in his nature to use his best props maximally, it's no real reflection on Tarus or Flynny's abilities.

It also applied to International Brian Mujati. Who was announced with a huge fanfare as coming to 'share the load' with Vadim. I didn't see anyone describing him as a third choice prop.

I would suggest that whilst Dimes is DOR he will continue to put his strongest props on the field for as long as possible in any top tier competition. That's what he has always done.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
thekeg (IP Logged)
11 October, 2018 11:41
I’d argue that strategy is due to a lack of depth historically in our props. We’ve often had only one really good option in each position. When we had ELR and Harrison they were rotated and both got proper game time, that’s the only time in recent seasons we’ve had that genuine competition

Mujati was a decent player but I’d argue that he wasn’t by the time he came to Sale, with his performances declining over the time he was with us, so I don’t think him being left on the bench for long periods is evidence of a strategy.

If we make a couple of signings at 1 snd 3 in the summer I think we will see more rotation and extended use of the bench

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
clutch (IP Logged)
11 October, 2018 14:34
Exactly. Can’t imagine giving Kitchoff 5 mins at the end.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
11 October, 2018 17:14
I would argue that Harrison and ELR were both 1st choice props: both got a significant number starts in the Premiership even when the other was uninjured. They rotated.
Most top 6 clubs have two 1st choice tightheads and two 1st choice looseheads. They rotate significantly more players, not just props.
They therefore have wage bills closer to £10-11M than our £5-6M.
We aren't a top 6 club and work within a much smaller budget.
Thats one reason why Dimes keeps his first choice props on longer.
As standard, players have written into their contracts that they get paid more once make a matchday squad, more when they are making starts and even more when they start making more than 5 starts a season in the Prem.i.e. they are true first choice options.
With props those increments are very large.

I don't share keg's view of Mujati. I don't think he ever let us down and i don't think his performances really declined. He could have been used quite a lot more. In his second season he just appeared to be out of favour with Dimes who didn't use him much at all, preferring to save money by not starting him and therefore not triggering larger salary payments. Under BK Dimes was under a lot of pressure to balance the books. I think he signed Mujati for a lowish basic wage but with large bonuses for starting, Prem appearances etc. Brian made reference to this in his vloggs..... He still did 50 starts in two seasons though, around the same as Flynny and Tarus and mostly in the same sort of games.
Cost-saving in selection is most often evident towards season end when that player is staying on (on the same terms and rates of pay that he finished the last one). The counter recording the number of starts, is reset. You effectively get another 5 games out of that prop for a far lower fee.
It's one reason (along with EQP payment qualification considerations) why some players miss out but others are still chosen in strange selections towards season end.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
thekeg (IP Logged)
11 October, 2018 18:35
I think you are now getting a bit pedantic over what 1sr 2nd 3rd choice means....the key point is that his game time in more important games, when there has still been something to play for in the game, has been very limited. That isn’t a great when he’s second in line.

Don’t agree on mujati, he slipped down the pecking order in his second season and was released early from his contract. Not really indicative of someone performing well, even if a fall out with dimes was part of it. He can’t have made 50 starts for us.....

Interesting points on the contractual aspects

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
JohnJ of HM (IP Logged)
11 October, 2018 18:42
I'm bored with this.

Let's just say welcome to Tom.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
Chris1850 (IP Logged)
11 October, 2018 19:05
Quote:
JohnJ of HM
I'm bored with this.
Let's just say welcome to Tom.

+1

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
thekeg (IP Logged)
11 October, 2018 21:25
Quote:
JohnJ of HM
I'm bored with this.
Let's just say welcome to Tom.

Ha - agreed

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
Crutch (IP Logged)
11 October, 2018 21:59
I think this all stems from the fact that none of us know much about Tom to form a valid opinion and discuss it!

Here's hoping he proves to be another astute pick up and that he's given opportunities to play.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
ballsout (IP Logged)
12 October, 2018 23:55
Quote:
H's Dad...
Quote:
Martwhit
Especially since both Taurus and Flynn are, rightly or wrongly, given equivalent minutes to a third choice prop up to now.
Manifestly that just isn't true in the case of Flynny.
Before he got injured very early in the Wasps match in early April he had averaged about 50 minutes a match in his last 5 appearances. Overall he played in around half of the Premiership games last season, averaging about 20 minutes a game. Those are second choice stats.
Tarus played a similar number of minutes in total last season
, it's only this season where he's only had a few minutes a game.

From what I saw of Flynn, he would sit on the bench week after week after week, and either get 0 minutes, or get 5. Maybe that was the season before last, but looking at the stats from last year, I somewhat doubt their accuracy. He barely plays for you guys.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
13 October, 2018 00:15
Official Stats are invariably more accurate than memory. We only notice players presence when they do something noticeably good or bad.
I spoke to Flynny last Easter and he was pleased that he had got a bit more exposure after Christmas, which is presumably why he renewed rather than moving elsewhere. He had a couple of other offers after all, but better the devil.....Then, of course, he got injured...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13/10/2018 00:18 by H's Dad....

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
jaytom (IP Logged)
13 October, 2018 00:30
Quote:
Chris1850
Quote:
JohnJ of HM
I'm bored with this.
Let's just say welcome to Tom.

+1

+2

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
clutch (IP Logged)
13 October, 2018 00:54
Not sure HsD. Memory allows you to identify the circumstance behind their appearance rather than the minutes. The answer was generally Game lost or game won if he got more than 10 mins max.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
13 October, 2018 09:48
Like many coaches Dimes doesn't make subs if a game is tight unless he can see a very good reason for it.
Isn't the result of many games already pretty much settled going into the last quarter?

I'd wager that for all Premiership clubs the average time to make a substitution not involving a card, HIA or injury is still probably 'around 20-25 minutes to play'.


Dimes' is probably a couple of minutes less than most but my memory certainly exaggerates that tendency.
It's an inevitable self-asserting moan we all have because we're not getting the results we want. The stats should bring that back to reality.

It's only the very top clubs who have 3 or 4 international quality props who rotate them with starts or let them do half a game each. All of those props are "first choice".

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
clutch (IP Logged)
13 October, 2018 10:23
Disagree. Other clubs make subs earlier and in bigger quantity during tight games. Diamond will use his bench effectively but only players he trusts which leaves Flynn and Nott etc will 5 mins.

Most games may be decided by last quarter but not many of our games!

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
13 October, 2018 12:21
You are just referring to the Premiership.
I'm not.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
clutch (IP Logged)
13 October, 2018 14:50
But we historically haven’t taken the other competitions seriously so of course Flynn will get more gametime in those.

 
Re: New Front Row Signing: Tom Bristow
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
13 October, 2018 19:53
IMHO every year we have taken those competitions pretty seriously until it's obvious we are unlikely to progress. Then we use it substantially more for development.
It's also true of other teams. If however a player really needs resting then we do that, but we always start as strong as practicable.
Unlike some of our opponents;
Quote:
BBC on Challenge Cup selections
Connacht coach Andy Friend retained only five players who started last weekend's win at Ulster for the Pool 3 opener with Bordeaux making 11 changes from their narrow loss at Grenoble in the Top 14.

Those competitions are of course also specifically used to help develope young 2nd choice players into 1st choice players!
Most clubs use a mixture of first and second choice players in their squads for such competitions as the Challenge Cup, Anglo Welsh etc.
Just as we did last night, but to a far lower extent as we have a small squad..
Do you really think we didn't take that game seriously?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13/10/2018 20:03 by H's Dad....


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