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2 Referees
emerging shark (IP Logged)
06 November, 2018 15:40
In today's press, Eddie Jones thinks rugby should have 2 referees: Discuss:

 
Re: 2 Referees
Flumpty (IP Logged)
06 November, 2018 16:44
no, no, no. no. no. no. no. end of discussion (Sm151)

 
Re: 2 Referees
Oldham Shark II (IP Logged)
06 November, 2018 16:52
Does he mean get rid of half of them that run the game at the moment?

 
Re: 2 Referees
emerging shark (IP Logged)
06 November, 2018 18:06
Thank you for trying to end the discussion Flumpty.. Why?

 
Re: 2 Referees
Yareet (IP Logged)
06 November, 2018 19:27
Quote:
emerging shark
In today's press, Eddie Jones thinks rugby should have 2 referees: Discuss:

We already have 4. Plus a captain can ask a ref to review something. And there is a citing officer.

What was Eddie arguing another referee would see that is currently missed?

 
Re: 2 Referees
emerging shark (IP Logged)
06 November, 2018 19:46
We already have 4.No we don't.
I quote: 'the game is becoming harder to officiate. The intensity of the hits is higher. We are asking one referee to do it the way they did when blokes like me were playing, jogging around. Things don't change quickly in rugby so maybe it will take 15 to 20 years.' Wot Eddie said..

 
Re: 2 Referees
Flumpty (IP Logged)
06 November, 2018 20:29
Quote:
emerging shark
Thank you for trying to end the discussion Flumpty.. Why?

There would be a complete lack of continuity in the game. Ref A refs the rucks** with his interpretation, Ref B refs the rucks with his (quite different) interpretation. Confusion reigns as players go from being told to "play on", to being pinged and giving away penalties as they cross the half way line.

**rucks being used as an example.

 
Re: 2 Referees
fouloleron2002 (IP Logged)
06 November, 2018 21:12
In the name of God, no. We are not Americans.

 
Re: 2 Referees
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
07 November, 2018 01:28
To be fair Flumpty, your scenario happens often enough with just one ref.

We do have 4 officials at the top levels of the game, granted only one of them is called referee.

Eddie is just plain wrong, there were no TMO's when he was plodding around the park. I'm happy for the TMO's authority and responsibilities to be tinkered with to get the right balance. But, largely for the same reasons as Flumpty, I think 2 refs would be a mistake.

To be honest I don't see the need, I agree it is a difficult game to ref, it is much faster then back in Eddie's day, but the quality of refs is also improving (in the main).



Unhappiness, where's when I was young
And we didn't give a damn
'Cause we were raised
To see life as a fun and take it if we can

 
Re: 2 Referees
pitprop (IP Logged)
07 November, 2018 07:03
I must pile in on Eddie's side. At least one of the refs could then referee whether the put-in to the scrum is straight - or not.

 
Re: 2 Referees
Flumpty (IP Logged)
07 November, 2018 08:15
Quote:
pitprop
I must pile in on Eddie's side. At least one of the refs could then referee whether the put-in to the scrum is straight - or not.

They already do referee whether the put in is straight at the scrum or not, its just at top level, they don't do anything about it going in "squint".

At lower levels, teh scrum is still a contest (including shock of shocks), winning the ball against the head and being pushed off the ball from your own put in !

 
Re: 2 Referees
Yareet (IP Logged)
07 November, 2018 09:30
Quote:
emerging shark
We already have 4.No we don't.
I quote: 'the game is becoming harder to officiate. The intensity of the hits is higher. We are asking one referee to do it the way they did when blokes like me were playing, jogging around. Things don't change quickly in rugby so maybe it will take 15 to 20 years.' Wot Eddie said..

Thatís funny because I thought the guys on the touch line were called Assistant Referees.

 
Re: 2 Referees
dinogyro (IP Logged)
08 November, 2018 11:20
Yes and when they get together to judge a conversion, the ball goes between the posts (which must be fairly obvious from where they are standing) and then they look at each other to see who is going to wave their flag first.

If it was more complicated than that, they would never be able to decide.

I say this in jest, of course. I realise reffing is very complicated.

 
Re: 2 Referees
clutch (IP Logged)
08 November, 2018 13:53
Flumpty you are dismissing without thinking. The same ref would ref the breakdown at all rucks I assume. He could focus 100% on the ruck as the other ref would look at offside etc. Donít dismiss something without the full facts. It has apparently worked in League and that is much easier to ref.

 
Re: 2 Referees
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
08 November, 2018 16:26
It's an interesting notion. Whilst very American the idea of the assistant referees throwing a flag does have it's merits. Currently they may say something to the referee but i think it's only in the case of foul play or potential serious injury. In neither of those cases are the public aware. Does reflink currently make one aware of interjections by an assistant ref?
On a closely related point which is more important?
Avoiding anything that might undermine a refereee, or getting all decisions right?
Where does seeing ALL offences and deciding to take action, or not, come in to it?.

 
Re: 2 Referees
Flumpty (IP Logged)
08 November, 2018 17:12
Quote:
clutch
Flumpty you are dismissing without thinking. The same ref would ref the breakdown at all rucks I assume. He could focus 100% on the ruck as the other ref would look at offside etc. Donít dismiss something without the full facts. It has apparently worked in League and that is much easier to ref.

So I'm not thinking and you're making assumptions (Sm128).
I wouldn't be able to comment about League, as my knowledge is limited to knowing that they play with the same shaped ball, only have 13 players and have 6 go's before the other team have 6 go's.

p.s where are the full facts, as without them, all of us are only offering up an opinion, as is Yoda.

 
Re: 2 Referees
clutch (IP Logged)
08 November, 2018 22:08
Iíd like to respond with a proverb but I canít make one up.

 
Re: 2 Referees
Flumpty (IP Logged)
08 November, 2018 22:11
Quote:
clutch
Iíd like to respond with a proverb but I canít make one up.

a man on galloping horseback only sees when the bullfrog bleats

 
Re: 2 Referees
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
09 November, 2018 00:39
Assistant refs advise the ref on much more than just foul play. They regularly call forward passes, offside, knock ons, which side caused a scrum to collapse, illegal entry to mauls.....the list goes on. These days they basically fulfill the name of assistant referee. Which advise he/she acts upon is, of course, entirely at the refs discretion.

According to Law 6.21 the referee may inform the Assistant referees of their duties, not sure if this means that the ref can restrict what type of decisions he wants to be advised upon, or even if this applies to professional game (The laws cover all the game, ref may well not so much advise at more junior levels where each team may be providing their own assistant)



Unhappiness, where's when I was young
And we didn't give a damn
'Cause we were raised
To see life as a fun and take it if we can

 
Re: 2 Referees
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
09 November, 2018 13:31
Poynters, yes generally I agree. HoweverI thought the referee instructed the assistant refs on what he wanted assistance with prior to each match, but foul play and serious injury were always immediately verbally reported. I agree most now want all the help they can can get but I've got the impression some set their own limits to the advice they want. Does the referee no longer have that authority to decide?

 
Re: 2 Referees
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
09 November, 2018 13:35
See above.



Unhappiness, where's when I was young
And we didn't give a damn
'Cause we were raised
To see life as a fun and take it if we can

 
Re: 2 Referees
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
09 November, 2018 16:26
Apologies Poynters i wasn't clear. Is it your opinion/impression that they no longer act on this power in the Laws and uniformly seek all the help they can get? I've still got the impression there is considerable variation.
At lower levels where the RFU have provided 3 officials, I've overheard refs being fairly specific as to what sort of assisistance they want from their colleagues (but that's only a handful of games over a decade or more.) Mostly BUCS/School/Club games final stages of competitions.

 
Re: 2 Referees
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
09 November, 2018 17:18
It had always been my impression in the past that different refs asked different things of their assistants. To me Law 6.21 indicates that the ref has every right to do so. Latterly at top levels the assistants seem to intervene whenever required, I don't know if the powers have suggested that assistants should advise in all areas, or if top level referees have had a collective epiphany and realised that all help should be gratefully accepted. I personally believe that any ref would be foolish not to take any official advice on offer. After all, the ref is under no obligation to act on that advice.



Unhappiness, where's when I was young
And we didn't give a damn
'Cause we were raised
To see life as a fun and take it if we can

 
Re: 2 Referees
G12AVY (IP Logged)
10 November, 2018 06:30
What needs to happen is that we go back to allowing the referee to be the referee and the ARs to assist him. With the TMO having such an influence in recent years the AR has become a flag up/flag down man, they are not interested in helping the referee on foul play, why would they? The refs are all out to protect themselves and gone are the days of having specialist ARs.


We used to use the term ďteam of 3Ē when there was no TMO, we need to get back to those days and there would be no need for an extra ref. Allow the TMO to be an extra pair of eyes, especially for scores and to act like an AR in a ďCheck, checkĒ call, but let the guys on the pitch have the responsibility.

 
Re: 2 Referees
G12AVY (IP Logged)
10 November, 2018 06:41
Pounders is technically correct, however ARs have fundamentally been instructed to say nothing for years.

The AR needs to be allowed to have these powers again

 
Re: 2 Referees
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
10 November, 2018 17:01
you see
m to have the situation @rse about face G12AVY. Top level AR's have become much more involved in more recent years.

BTW, Who TF is Pounders?



Unhappiness, where's when I was young
And we didn't give a damn
'Cause we were raised
To see life as a fun and take it if we can

 
Re: 2 Referees
G12AVY (IP Logged)
10 November, 2018 18:10
Autocorrect for the name.

You are talking bollocks! But then again you are probably right, what would an ex-international AR know?!

 
Re: 2 Referees
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
10 November, 2018 19:13
Ex, from back when AR's were shite, refs couldn't trust them to tie their shoelaces, so they took no notice



Unhappiness, where's when I was young
And we didn't give a damn
'Cause we were raised
To see life as a fun and take it if we can

 
Re: 2 Referees
buelligansmate (IP Logged)
10 November, 2018 21:33
Quote:
PoyntonShark
Ex, from back when AR's were shite, refs couldn't trust them to tie their shoelaces, so they took no notice
And they wore blazers?

 
Re: 2 Referees
Yareet (IP Logged)
10 November, 2018 21:40
Quote:
G12AVY
Autocorrect for the name.
You are talking bollocks! But then again you are probably right, what would an ex-international AR know?!

Scotland-based?

 
Re: 2 Referees
emerging shark (IP Logged)
11 November, 2018 17:00
Ex, from back when AR's were shite, refs couldn't trust them to tie their shoelaces, so they took no notice
Very funny PS, you obviously don't know who he is and how recent..a ref does not want his ARs in his ear every few seconds. G12AVY knows what he is talking about from today's referee's world, believe me. Ex, from back when AR's were shite, dear me...as usual you know best....

 
Re: 2 Referees
H's Dad... (IP Logged)
12 November, 2018 00:19
G12AVY, is there consistency in what the current top level refs require of their ARs?
How much individudual variation still exists?
Or if you don't know , what was the situation when you were at the top level and how do you think it is changing, or needs to change?

 
Re: 2 Referees
PoyntonShark (IP Logged)
12 November, 2018 02:44
I think I do know who he is, but I couldn't care less. You don't need to be an international or ex international anything, to be able to hear AR's at the top level of the modern game communicating with the referee. How many decisions did Jaco Pyper advise Garces about on Saturday? Most of the offsides, several illegal entries and a few knock ons, to name but a few. Hardly just a flag waver. When anyone comes on here thnking they can dismiss others opinions with a "you're talking bollocks" and try to enforce it with "I did it so I know it all", will be met with kind.



Unhappiness, where's when I was young
And we didn't give a damn
'Cause we were raised
To see life as a fun and take it if we can


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