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6th Place Still Alive....
Discussion started by 1972shark , 05 May, 2019 17:20
6th Place Still Alive....
1972shark 05 May, 2019 17:20
Sale now 7th, 1 point behind Bath who go to Leicester last game. A win for us against Gloucester and a defeat for Bath and we finish 6th, a BP win for us and a no BP win for Bath, we still finish 6th, all to play for



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/05/2019 17:27 by 1972shark.

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
Oldham Shark II 05 May, 2019 17:31
Bath are at Leicester next week, not Exeter, good job they are big rivals. This must be the first time ever I've wanted Cheaters to win a game. Mind you, it seems that if Sorries win Champions Cup, we might be in anyway finishing 7th.

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
LJK 05 May, 2019 17:41
Was that the same Bath team as played us last week - unrecognisable! I hoped it would end at 17 all draw, but their confidence at the end was telling. With the win in the bag they kicked away possession from the re-start with a minute or two to go. Dalallgio and crew couldn't believe what they were doing.... but it paid off with the bonus point try at the death.
Extra pressure on Sale to get 5 points against Glos. or rely on 3 others to lose their games, which seems unlikely. We'll all be nervously watching other scores on phones as well as the Sale game at the AJ in 2 weeks

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
Major Bloodnok 05 May, 2019 17:43
And if we don't beat Gloucester, we could end up 9th...



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Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
1972shark 05 May, 2019 17:44
Sorry Oldham Shark, yr right, Leicester not Exeter, which I think is probably better? Big rivals will want to stop Bath from finishing 6th, anyway, should be a fun afternoon... Edited first post 👍

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
emerging shark 05 May, 2019 17:53
If Bath beat Leicester it does not matter what we do against Gloucester

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
clutch 05 May, 2019 18:07
It does if 7th qualifies.
Bath are terrible away from home. Hopefully last game of last season Tigers will turn up!!

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
Olyy 05 May, 2019 18:08
Do we get in regardless, by virtue of being Challenge cup semi finalists?

From the Euro Rugby site, the 20th spot goes to:

i) Heineken Champions Cup winner, if not already qualified
ii) Challenge Cup winner, if not already qualified
iii) Challenge Cup losing finalist, if not already qualified
iv) Play-off match between the losing Challenge Cup semi-finalists, if not already qualified
v) Highest ranked non-qualified club by virtue of league position from the same league as the Heineken Champions Cup winner


i) Leinster/Sarries will qualify anyway
ii) La Rochelle/Clermont look nailed on to qualify by league position
iii) As above
iv) That would be us vs Quins, except Quins have already qualified by league table position

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
1972shark 05 May, 2019 18:15
Actually if Bath beat Leicester by less than 4 tries and we beat Gloucester with a BP, we finish 6th by virtue of winning more games (I think)

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
DaveAitch 05 May, 2019 18:23
5th: bonus point win and all other results favourable, especially Harlequins not getting losing bonus point and/or try bonus point.
6th: get 1 more point than Bath, Harlequins getting 1 or more points, other results favourable
7th: status quo maintained by
8th: overtaken by Wasps or Bristol (each needs 4 points more than Sale obtain)
9th: overtaken by Wasps and Bristol

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
FarnhamShark 05 May, 2019 20:40
Quote:
Olyy
Do we get in regardless, by virtue of being Challenge cup semi finalists?
From the Euro Rugby site, the 20th spot goes to:

i) Heineken Champions Cup winner, if not already qualified
ii) Challenge Cup winner, if not already qualified
iii) Challenge Cup losing finalist, if not already qualified
iv) Play-off match between the losing Challenge Cup semi-finalists, if not already qualified
v) Highest ranked non-qualified club by virtue of league position from the same league as the Heineken Champions Cup winner


i) Leinster/Sarries will qualify anyway
ii) La Rochelle/Clermont look nailed on to qualify by league position
iii) As above
iv) That would be us vs Quins, except Quins have already qualified by league table position

Would (v) mean an Irish team if Leinster beat Sarries?

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
Irish_Shark 05 May, 2019 22:20
Quote:
FarnhamShark
Quote:
Olyy
Do we get in regardless, by virtue of being Challenge cup semi finalists?
From the Euro Rugby site, the 20th spot goes to:

i) Heineken Champions Cup winner, if not already qualified
ii) Challenge Cup winner, if not already qualified
iii) Challenge Cup losing finalist, if not already qualified
iv) Play-off match between the losing Challenge Cup semi-finalists, if not already qualified
v) Highest ranked non-qualified club by virtue of league position from the same league as the Heineken Champions Cup winner


i) Leinster/Sarries will qualify anyway
ii) La Rochelle/Clermont look nailed on to qualify by league position
iii) As above
iv) That would be us vs Quins, except Quins have already qualified by league table position

Would (v) mean an Irish team if Leinster beat Sarries?

A welsh team since all the Irish teams finished in top 3 of both conferences of pro14

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
Major Bloodnok 05 May, 2019 22:27
Quote:
Olyy
Do we get in regardless, by virtue of being Challenge cup semi finalists?
From the Euro Rugby site, the 20th spot goes to:

i) Heineken Champions Cup winner, if not already qualified
ii) Challenge Cup winner, if not already qualified
iii) Challenge Cup losing finalist, if not already qualified
iv) Play-off match between the losing Challenge Cup semi-finalists, if not already qualified
v) Highest ranked non-qualified club by virtue of league position from the same league as the Heineken Champions Cup winner


i) Leinster/Sarries will qualify anyway
ii) La Rochelle/Clermont look nailed on to qualify by league position
iii) As above
iv) That would be us vs Quins, except Quins have already qualified by league table position

Where I'm suspicious is that the losing Champions' Cup finalist isn't in the list. I'd expect it to be either second or third. Not that it would make a difference, but it makes me wonder at the veracity of the list.



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Somewhere in the South Stand

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
Irish_Shark 06 May, 2019 01:27
The list is the same as the one on the epcr website.

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
Crutch 06 May, 2019 02:06
5-9th going into a final game at home with a tired first team is ominously similar to last year....

Letís hope for a better outcome this time around.

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
thekeg 06 May, 2019 10:13
Wouldnt we automatically go through under 4 if LR finish top 6 and Quins automatically qualify? To skip over us just because Quins have qualified wouldnít make sense

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
Major Bloodnok 06 May, 2019 10:35
Quote:
Irish_Shark
The list is the same as the one on the epcr website.

I'm just wondering why the losing Champions' Cup finalists don't get in there when the losing Challenge Cup finalists do (not to mention semi-finalists...). Is it an attempt to make the Challenge Cup more meaningful?

I agree that, based on the list and given that La Rochelle qualify by league position, either Quins go through on league position and we get through on clause (iv) or we qualify on league position and Quins go through on clause (iv), since we're the lowest-placed team that could push them out of 6th.



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Somewhere in the South Stand

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
clutch 06 May, 2019 11:25
Surely the play off option is void.

So either we qualify virtue of no one to play in the play off, or it moves to the final, Sarries dependent option.

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
HartfordShark 06 May, 2019 11:38
I was originally of the belief that the playoff option would be void (based on Quins already qualifying through league position). However, if La Rochelle finish top 6 then it would appear we may qualify via the playoff route (with no need for a playoff). The below article certainly intimates that this would be the case based on how it could affect the prospects of the Pro 14 teams...

[www.rugbypass.com]

However, come what may we need to ensure we do our best to finish top 6 regardless. I'm sure the EPRC will clarify matters this week and a lot might rest on La Rochelle finishing top 6 in the French league. And seeing as they finish the week after us that final week of waiting could be tortuous!

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
clutch 06 May, 2019 12:06
I know it isnít the case but imagine battling to the semi final of the Champions Cup and not qualifying for Europe.
Oh well, we will take it. Can but a second team out next week for the EQ bonus

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
M5 Shark 06 May, 2019 13:26
Obviously depending on who we may get in the top tier euro cup group stages, I often wonder what is better for the club....

- Challenge Cup matches where we have a strong chance of getting to the knockout stages, gaining momentum by winning euro matches and taking that to the GP, but not attracting further top players, lower attendances, less money (?) from the organisers, rotate some of our top players (although that only happen On a couple of occasions this term)

- Champions Cup matches where we are likely to be a bottom seed and face 2-3 very good Euro sides and lower chance to qualify for knockout sides, expect to be beaten and lessen our confidence in terms of GP momentum, play our top players every game as well as in the GP, more income from attendances and organisers(?), but build a bigger squad and attract more top players

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
thekeg 06 May, 2019 13:37
If we want to keep our owners and better players then we need to have ambition and aim to be in the best competitions. That will involve some short term issues playing better sides, but we wonít improve if we are outside the top competition

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
philthefluter 06 May, 2019 15:11
I don't think you would find anyone, Players, Management or Fans who wouldn't prefer to be in the Champions Cup

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
Timperley Shark 06 May, 2019 15:39
Not just us who may be waiting....
[www.bbc.co.uk]

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
M5 Shark 06 May, 2019 16:27
Quote:
philthefluter
I don't think you would find anyone, Players, Management or Fans who wouldn't prefer to be in the Champions Cup


And what if that results in relegation from the GP?

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
thekeg 06 May, 2019 16:55
Quote:
M5 Shark
Quote:
philthefluter
I don't think you would find anyone, Players, Management or Fans who wouldn't prefer to be in the Champions Cup


And what if that results in relegation from the GP?

It will never ďresult in relegationĒ, it just means you have more tough games but you need to work around that and recruit accordingly. I really donít understand the mentality of not wanting to be in the champions cup, itís completely defeatist, surely the point of professional support is to try and test yourself at the highest level

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
Irish_Shark 06 May, 2019 18:05
Quote:
M5 Shark
Quote:
philthefluter
I don't think you would find anyone, Players, Management or Fans who wouldn't prefer to be in the Champions Cup


And what if that results in relegation from the GP?

Considering we started the season with a squad of less than 30 senior players with half a dozen either injured or on international duty throughout and we're still pushing top 6 we should still avoid relegation next year
No offence to the squad that Newcastle built but we have made some very strong signings and already probably have a stronger squad on paper.

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
clutch 06 May, 2019 18:05
Itís not why Newcastle went down. They werenít a top 4 team last year, and thereís very little between 4-12.
If anything our European exploits have taken more toll. We did rest players at first but we picked pretty much full choice teams often, and against good opposition.

As long as we recruit to have the 36 quality players we will be fine. Historically the second 15 was significantly weaker. Now it has a Curry, AJ, Luke James, McGuigan, John, Warthog etc.

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
philthefluter 06 May, 2019 18:32
I`m sure most of us would risk relegation rather than suffer another season of being subjected to disinterested French reserve teams. As The keg says, you don`t play professional sport to aim to be mediocre. I'm sure the owners would be off like a shot if they thought that was the case.

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
Olyy 06 May, 2019 18:59
Ask Lood de Jager or Faf de Klerk if they'd rather be putting 80pts on Calvisano or experiencing Thomond Park on European match day

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
StalyShark 06 May, 2019 19:17
I wrote the post below a week or so ago. If you look at the ďChallenge CupĒ team you can see a lot of decent rotation options where we can rest players for a week or so.

**At time of writing, a team for the Championsí Cup:

Harrison
Webber
John
Beaumont
de Jšger
Ross
T Curry
Strauss
Faf
AJ/RdP
Yarde
RJVR
S James
Solomona
Ashton

van der Merve
Morozov
Cooper-Woolley
Phillips
B Curry
Cliff
AJ/RdP
JOC
McGuigan

Some team!

However, if we end up in the Challenge Cup and put the above team out in the league:

Morozov
van der Merve
Cooper-Woolley
Evans
Phillips
Nield
B Curry
Moore
Cliff
AJ/RdP
McGuigan
Redpath
JOC
Reed
L James

Langdon
Bristow
Jones
Postlethwaite
Nott
Warr
Wilkinson
Odogwu

That team would do some damage too! Getting very exciting!**

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
ale shark 06 May, 2019 20:24
Olly - surely we haven't signed vd Merve to be second choice behind Webber?

My issue with the Champions Cup is it's very, very hard to progress beyond the group stage. Realistically there's only about 6 teams (if that) that can compete to win it and one of them is in each group. If a team loses their first home game then it's almost impossible to get out of the group. Newcastle has a couple of heroic results and performances but still came bottom of their group. Exeter still canít seem to get their act together in Europe and theyíve been competing at the highest level for a number of years now.

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
clutch 06 May, 2019 21:47
Webber has been v good. Itís going to take a big effort to overtake him. Though Webber only has a couple of years left, so heíll be phased out Iím sure at some point.

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
thekeg 06 May, 2019 21:55
I think hooker will be an interesting contest next year, I certainly donít think itís clear cut that AVDM will be coming as first choice

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
StalyShark 06 May, 2019 21:59
Quote:
thekeg
I think hooker will be an interesting contest next year, I certainly donít think itís clear cut that AVDM will be coming as first choice

Webber could either be used to start and tire out the opposition or could be used to sure up the scrum with the subs. Autumn/Spring Akker at 2 and winter Webber maybe.

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
Crutch 06 May, 2019 22:22
Iíd expect genuine rotation next year and whoeverís on the bench to get a good 20-30 mins.

Webberís performances have been remarkable considering the mins heís been asked to play.

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
chrissmith_79 07 May, 2019 11:57
I think the potential of 6th this season is remarkable. I watch from a distance and believe we spend £2.5m less that Worcester and Newcastle.The players, staff, owners should be over the moon. If what I read is correct, the 8 new internationals arriving will make us even more competitive. I will buy a season ticket again.

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
clutch 07 May, 2019 12:16
Iíve heard some fans suggest our squad is as good as if not better than the teams around us. It isnít. Finishing 6th this season will be our greatest achievement under the Diamond reign.

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
PoyntonShark 07 May, 2019 13:11
Agreed. Our first XV is as good as most, stiff competition for anyone in the league, but the squad isn't deep or big enough to compete consistently with the best.



Unhappiness, where's when I was young
And we didn't give a damn
'Cause we were raised
To see life as a fun and take it if we can

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
clutch 07 May, 2019 13:44
Absolutely. Depth is the issue, though Iíd argue Wasps and Bath have better first 15s as well. Think we are better than Quins.
Itís easy to overrate our players and put the blame on the coaches when anything goes wrong.

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
DaveAitch 07 May, 2019 13:52
Quote:
clutch
Iíve heard some fans suggest our squad is as good as if not better than the teams around us. It isnít. Finishing 6th this season will be our greatest achievement under the Diamond reign.
Better than the 6th place in 2013-2014 with 59 points and twelve wins?

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
clutch 07 May, 2019 15:17
We had Cipriani then! And a firing Addison. Less competitive league as well.
Iím basing it on how much with have stuttered all season and battled through. We played some great stuff that year. Plus, we had very few injuries that year.

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
thekeg 07 May, 2019 16:39
Quote:
DaveAitch
Quote:
clutch
Iíve heard some fans suggest our squad is as good as if not better than the teams around us. It isnít. Finishing 6th this season will be our greatest achievement under the Diamond reign.
Better than the 6th place in 2013-2014 with 59 points and twelve wins?

I agree, we had cips but around him were a lot of home products and ďAldi signingsĒ

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
DaveAitch 07 May, 2019 17:20
Well, it, 2013-2014 was the one season that Sale finished higher than Exeter in the Premiership. That must be worth something.

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
ale shark 07 May, 2019 17:37
Crikey, some of them Aldi players! Who on earth was Kirill Kulemin?

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
clutch 07 May, 2019 17:51
A large Russian!!

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
thekeg 07 May, 2019 18:11
Quote:
ale shark
Crikey, some of them Aldi players! Who on earth was Kirill Kulemin?

A penalty machine!

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
StalyShark 07 May, 2019 19:00
Quote:
thekeg
Quote:
ale shark
Crikey, some of them Aldi players! Who on earth was Kirill Kulemin?

A penalty machine!

Surely Brent Cockbain had that moniker!

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
thekeg 07 May, 2019 20:24
Quote:
StalyShark
Quote:
thekeg
Quote:
ale shark
Crikey, some of them Aldi players! Who on earth was Kirill Kulemin?

A penalty machine!

Surely Brent Cockbain had that moniker!

Yes they had that in common. I remember kulemin coming off the bench and giving away 3 in what must have been 3 minutes, not sure he was seen again

Re: 6th Place Still Alive....
clutch 07 May, 2019 20:47
The final one resulting in a yellow!


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