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Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Discussion started by 1972shark , 11 May, 2019 18:10
Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
1972shark 11 May, 2019 18:10
So, if we finish outside top 6, can we still qualify by virtue of our losing Champions Cup semi and other clubs finishing positions?

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
clutch 11 May, 2019 18:52
Seemingly but who knows.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Irish_Shark 11 May, 2019 18:56
Saracens winning helps

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Yareet 11 May, 2019 19:35
Quote:
Irish_Shark
Saracens winning helps

My understanding is that the 20th spot will go to:

La Rochelle (as losing Challenge Cup finalist)
unless they come top 6 in which case...

Playoff between Us/Quins as losing Challenge Cup semifinalists
although I think the rules as written donít allow for this as one of us will be Top 6 so we go to...

7th place in the Gallagher Prem

If we are not Top 6, I THINK Quins have to be so if we finish Top 7, we should at worst be in a playoff (assuming La Rochelle stay top 6).

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
thekeg 11 May, 2019 19:35
I think beating Gloucester would definitely be enoughnkw even without LR finishing top 6

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Yareet 11 May, 2019 19:38
Quote:
thekeg
I think beating Gloucester would definitely be enoughnkw even without LR finishing top 6

True

And itís definitely the best option as then we wouldnít be going into the 20th spot and wouldnít be in the lowest seeding.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
iBozz 11 May, 2019 20:15
Quote:
Irish_Shark
Saracens winning helps

FT: Leinster 10-20 Saracens



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

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Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
thekeg 11 May, 2019 21:49
Quote:
Yareet
Quote:
thekeg
I think beating Gloucester would definitely be enoughnkw even without LR finishing top 6

True

And itís definitely the best option as then we wouldnít be going into the 20th spot and wouldnít be in the lowest seeding.

Not if winning still means we finish 7th

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Cornerball 18 May, 2019 23:45
So we've finished 7th after Baths last ditch effort. To qualify for the Champions Cup we need LA Rochelle to finish on the top 6?



Cornerball

______________________________________________________
The glass isn't half empty or half full -
It's too small

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
clutch 18 May, 2019 23:55
Yeah. They have Bordeaux at home and they canít make the top 6 so should have nothing to play for. Plus, the are a French team away from home.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
H's D 19 May, 2019 00:34
We are not quite home and dry.
La Rochelle are 5 points clear of Montpelier who have won 3 less games in the League.
However that doesn't that make it impossible for Montpelier to overhaul them!
Mostly because they have a game in hand.
If Montpelier beat Stade Francaise tomorrow it's still wide open.
Moreover.......
TOP14 rules
In the event of a tie on points, league position is then decided on league points earned in matches between the two teams. Failing that points scored in the two games..
Montpelier won easily at home (36-14) with a 4 try bonus point and lost narrowly (27-25) with a narrow loss losing bonus point away v La Rochelle.
Their couple of extra bonus points would mean that Montpelier still could indeed finish 6th, even if they lose tomorrow.

We won't know for certain till the afternoon of the 25th May.
Either way they will need a better result in the final round than the winner of tomorrow's match...
AND
La Rochelle will need at least a point Home v Bordeaux Begles (9th) to stay 6th IF Montpelier somehow manage to score a bonus point win away at Clermont (who have finished 2nd)!

However it's looking like an odds-on certainty that we will indeed be in the Champions Cup next season.(Sm152)
I'm happily clucking, going into lay mode.....



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 19/05/2019 01:04 by H's D.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Irish_Shark 19 May, 2019 07:18
If montpellier lose stade Francais move into contention as they play pau next week

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
ale shark 19 May, 2019 07:38
Given that we dropped from 5 to 7 whilst I was on the shuttle bus due to late scores elsewhere I donít think itís safe to assume anything! La Rochelle can still come 4th so at least theyíve got an incentive to keep going rather than settle for 7th.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Sussex Shark 19 May, 2019 07:48
Plus La Rochelle I would have thought would want to get into the play offs which is top 6 in France I think. So still a lot to play for over there.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
H's D 19 May, 2019 09:17
Quote:
Irish shark
If montpellier lose stade Francais move into contention as they play pau next week
Didn't....
"We won't know for certain till the afternoon of the 25th May.
Either way they (La Rochelle) will need a better result in the final round than the winner of tomorrow's match (between Montpelier & Stade Francais)... "
say exactly that...?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 19/05/2019 09:19 by H's D.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
DaveAitch 19 May, 2019 09:44
By the time the final round comes round Clermont might be not in a position to come first in the league. They might play their second string in the final match and gift the opposition a win. I know it's unlikely for any side to field an intentionally weakened team in any game, but there is just that possibility.

I think the most points for any game is France is 6. The bonus try points are awarded for finishing with more tries than the opposition (is it three?), so only one team can register a try bonus. With the 'right' result both of today's teams, Montpellier and Stade Francais, can stay in contention. Interestingly, if my interpretation of the French rules has been correct, neither Sale nor Gloucester would have had a try bonus point from yesterday's game.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
H's D 19 May, 2019 10:04
Not quite correct Dave... Especially in that one team can only score a maximum of 5 points from a match.
The sixth point for the loser is as rare as hen's teeth. I can't even find a single example.
The reason:
Quote:
wiki
France's bonus point system operates as follows:
4 points for a win.
2 points for a draw.
1 bonus point for winning while scoring at least 3 more tries than the opponent. This replaces the standard bonus point for scoring 4 tries regardless of the match result.
1 bonus point for losing by 5 points (or fewer). The margin had been 7 points until being changed prior to the 2014Ė15 season.

To lose by more than three tries but stay within 5 points is a Herculean achievement.

However a draw would indeed leave it down to the relative results in the final round....La Rochelle would need to win to be certain of staying sixth.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 19/05/2019 10:07 by H's D.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
DaveAitch 19 May, 2019 10:22
You may be right on the losing bonus point, H's D. I think it was 7, as here, but they downgraded to 5 a few seasons ago, but I can't say that I have looked since and maybe it doesn't exist now.


In some ways the French try bonus system is more sensible than the straight bonus point for four tries or more.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
clutch 19 May, 2019 11:06
We would have against Leicester. We scored 5 tries. Donít think they scored any?

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
philthefluter 19 May, 2019 11:49
Up to last week most people were of the opinion (me included) that if Sarries beat Leinster then 7th place in the Premiership qualified for the Champions Cup.

What's changed? Why is that now not the case?

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
clutch 19 May, 2019 12:13
7th is lower in the order of priority than the challenge cup. So if La Rochelle donít make it via the pro 12 route they qualify via being losing finalists.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Oldham Shark II 19 May, 2019 13:30
Montpellier have just jumped into 6th place after stuffing Stade, so I'm assuming Champions Cup is now looking very precarious indeed.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
clutch 19 May, 2019 13:56
@#$%&. Though La Rochelle are at home to Bordeaux-Begles and Montpellier away to Clement.
Fingers crossed.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
thekeg 19 May, 2019 14:05
Wouldnít say precarious as Montpellier go to clermont next week and LR have a v winnable home game

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
DaveAitch 19 May, 2019 15:10
Quote:
clutch
7th is lower in the order of priority than the challenge cup. So if La Rochelle donít make it via the pro 12 route they qualify via being losing finalists.

Frankly, I would be very surprised if La Rochelle made it via the pro 12 route! (Yes, I know it was just a slip of the keyboard.)

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
clutch 19 May, 2019 15:38
Who knows. Go back in time and let French teams in. Stranger things have happened.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
philthefluter 19 May, 2019 16:05
So Sarries beating Leinster had no bearing on it?

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
H's D 19 May, 2019 17:33
It did then facilitating the 7th place route but it doesn't now!

My clutch of eggs are looking decidedly fragile...La Rochelle are 6 points clear in 7th with only 5 points up for grabs in the final round for each team.
They will enter the last game realizing that they are already qualified for the Champions Cup!
They don't need to win. The patriotic thing to do would be to let Montpelier stay in 6th condemning the anti-European Brexit-obsessed Brits in the form of Sale to the second string competition....(Sm113)

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
StalyShark 19 May, 2019 17:38
Quote:
H's D
It did then facilitating the 7th place route but it doesn't now!
My clutch of eggs are looking decidedly fragile...La Rochelle are 6 points clear in 7th with only 5 points up for grabs in the final round for each team.
They will enter the last game realizing that they are already qualified for the Champions Cup!
They don't need to win. The patriotic thing to do would be to let Montpelier stay in 6th condemning the anti-European Brexit-obsessed Brits in the form of Sale to the second string competition....(Sm113)

However, 6th gets them into the playoffs and didnít Castres win it even though they came 6th last year?

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Rich. 20 May, 2019 09:14
Quote:
philthefluter
So Sarries beating Leinster had no bearing on it?

Yes it did - if Leinster had won then it would certainly be Challenge Cup next season as the 20th spot would go to a Guiness Pro 14 team.

La Rochelle will certainly not be satisfied to have 7 place in Top 14 so will be going for it next week - so are very likely to get a maximum points win against Bordeaux. Clermont will not want to lose at home + even more so as they have a week off (while 3 - 6 th play off) so will play their beat team and go for it to give them some momentum going into the semi-finals.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
ale shark 20 May, 2019 09:48
La Rochelle have now already qualified for the Champions Cup either way. They may have a sub-conscious greater collective enthusiasm for the beach rather than extending their season by up to 3 weeks.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
clutch 20 May, 2019 10:14
They can still win the league. Think 6th gets into play offs. Either way they can still make 4th.

Pretty sure Castres finished below 4th last year.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Rich. 20 May, 2019 10:17
Yes Top 14 far more important in France that Champions Cup.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
NorthernMaori 20 May, 2019 11:30
We can still make the Champions Cup; and you would suspect that La Rochelle should qualify through the Top14 given the French clubs don't seem to travel that well for league fixtures.

Having said that, you have to question whether we would want to get in to the Champions Cup (except for the money) next season given that we will be one of the lowest ranked teams and therefore will in all likelihood have one of the toughest pools. Will potentially being beaten up for consecutive weeks of the season really do us that much good? We have seen before how the Club has struggled in the league when we also have the top European comp. I know we have recruited well for next season but the large influx of players, plus the World Cup could derail the best laid plans.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
ale shark 20 May, 2019 12:00
We need Champions Cup now with the bigger/better squad. We'll pick up a few defeats but we've got to start to increase our ranking and qualify year or year. Newcastle had a couple of great wins this year as well so anything is possible. If our players gel and are fit on paper weíre a match for anyone.

I imagine there'd be a decent boost in season ticket sales if we qualify as well.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
WiganSaler 20 May, 2019 13:17
If's but's and maybe's... were there no bonus points just 4 points for the win and 2 for the draw we would be in 4th place on 11 wins and 2 draws with 48 points and in the play off's. Proving again BP's are vital, or...?



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Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Major Bloodnok 20 May, 2019 14:49
Thus showing that BPs do the job they were introduced to do: reward attacking play and fighting to the end.

If we'd won either of the games we drew, we'd be 4th, even with bonus points in place. We didn't, so we're not.



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Somewhere in the South Stand

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
H's D 20 May, 2019 18:36
I expect Bath supporters are saying exactly the same thing. Nevertheless points difference tends to be a good guide and on that basis the current top 4 deserve their places...

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Yareet 20 May, 2019 19:29
Quote:
Major Bloodnok
Thus showing that BPs do the job they were introduced to do: reward attacking play and fighting to the end.
If we'd won either of the games we drew, we'd be 4th, even with bonus points in place. We didn't, so we're not.

Agreed. Quins fans are asking ďWhat if?Ē about Langís missed kick. Granted it was the last play of the last play of season but ultimately it had less effect than Faf hitting the post against Bristol.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
1972shark 25 May, 2019 17:43
La Rochelle finish 5th so Sale qualify for the Heineken Champions Cup 2020

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Olyy 25 May, 2019 18:59
Never in doubt

*Wipes sweat from brow*

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Crutch 25 May, 2019 19:03
Fantastic. Now letís wait for our horrendous group!!!

I reckon we should be able to get a win or two at home against anybody though.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
clutch 25 May, 2019 19:44
Yep. Donít think we have won a game in last 6. Would take 2 wins as a nice building block to a top 4 finish

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
philthefluter 25 May, 2019 20:00
Let's hope we can bring a few more people in, a few more season tickets sold and then compete and win a couple of games, and build on that.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
East Stand Shark 25 May, 2019 20:05
Champions Cup draw scheduled for 1.00pm on Wednesday June 19th in Lausanne.
I know we will be seeded bottom but who cares! We're back at the top table and I for one are looking forward to pitting ourselves against Europe's elite. Should be one or two nice trips in there as well. Racing 92 in Paris would do just nicely

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Heathen 25 May, 2019 21:17
Quote:
Olyy
Never in doubt
*Wipes sweat from brow*

Scoring 81 points today did them no harm!

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Mrs Trellis of North Wales 26 May, 2019 11:32
Well plauyed Sale - outstanding effort.



There are no ants in Antarctica despite the name.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
ale shark 27 May, 2019 17:33
How did we actually qualify in the end? Was it as losing semi-finalist or 7th? Did we interpret the fairly ambiguous rules correctly?

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Irish_Shark 27 May, 2019 17:56
Quote:
ale shark
How did we actually qualify in the end? Was it as losing semi-finalist or 7th? Did we interpret the fairly ambiguous rules correctly?
losing semi finalist

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Yareet 27 May, 2019 19:37
Quote:
Irish_Shark
Quote:
ale shark
How did we actually qualify in the end? Was it as losing semi-finalist or 7th? Did we interpret the fairly ambiguous rules correctly?
losing semi finalist

You sure about that? I think we needed Sarries to win the Cup as we got through as 7th

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
PoyntonShark 28 May, 2019 03:16
I think Irish_Shark is right. Given the order of the 20th place qualification criteria :-

Quote:
EPCR Web site
In accordance with a decision of the EPCR Board comprising the nine unions, federations and league bodies, the 20th place in the Heineken Champions Cup will be determined as follows:
i) Heineken Champions Cup winner, if not already qualified
ii) Challenge Cup winner, if not already qualified
iii) Challenge Cup losing finalist, if not already qualified
iv) Play-off match between the losing Challenge Cup semi-finalists, if not already qualified
v) Highest ranked non-qualified club by virtue of league position from the same league as the Heineken Champions Cup winner


The play-off between losing Challenge cup semi finalists ranks above highest rank in same league as Champions Cup winner, the play-off not required as Quins already qualified. SO I reckon losing semi-finalists just sneaks it. Assuming that order is important, then Sarries winning Champions Cup did nothing for us. Had La Rochelle not finished in Top 6, then they would have qualified as Challenge cup losing finalists, no matter who won Champions Cup. Not that it really matters. I haven't yet seen it officially confirmed that we are in. News 'in coming days' on EPCR.



Unhappiness, where's when I was young
And we didn't give a damn
'Cause we were raised
To see life as a fun and take it if we can

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
madders 28 May, 2019 06:25
The offy confirmed it via their Twitter feed, although I don't think they said how.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
DaveAitch 28 May, 2019 08:37
As someone, the Major, I think, pointed out earlier it seems strange that the losing semi-finalists of the Challenge Cup appear to be ahead of those from the Champions Cup. EPCR may have published the above list, but is it correct?

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Yareet 28 May, 2019 10:07
Quote:
PoyntonShark
I think Irish_Shark is right. Given the order of the 20th place qualification criteria :-
Quote:
EPCR Web site
In accordance with a decision of the EPCR Board comprising the nine unions, federations and league bodies, the 20th place in the Heineken Champions Cup will be determined as follows:
i) Heineken Champions Cup winner, if not already qualified
ii) Challenge Cup winner, if not already qualified
iii) Challenge Cup losing finalist, if not already qualified
iv) Play-off match between the losing Challenge Cup semi-finalists, if not already qualified
v) Highest ranked non-qualified club by virtue of league position from the same league as the Heineken Champions Cup winner


The play-off between losing Challenge cup semi finalists ranks above highest rank in same league as Champions Cup winner, the play-off not required as Quins already qualified. SO I reckon losing semi-finalists just sneaks it. Assuming that order is important, then Sarries winning Champions Cup did nothing for us. Had La Rochelle not finished in Top 6, then they would have qualified as Challenge cup losing finalists, no matter who won Champions Cup. Not that it really matters. I haven't yet seen it officially confirmed that we are in. News 'in coming days' on EPCR.

Without opening the debate again, letís agree to disagree.

Although I canít think of a better snapshot of rugbyís laws than something written in black and white yet completely open to interpretation 🤣

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
H's D 28 May, 2019 18:18
Must say I agree we qualified on the criteria of Challenge Cup losing semi-finalist (although no play-off was required) because of the losing finalist, La Rochelle, finishing in the top 6.
(V) would never have come into play had La Rochelle needed to qualify under iii) as losing Challenge Cup Finalist.
Similarly we would have ended up in a play-off with Quins had they failed to finish top 6, before any 7th position claim under V).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 28/05/2019 22:19 by H's D.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
DaveAitch 29 May, 2019 16:39
Yareet is correct.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
H's D 04 June, 2019 16:40
Oh no he's not! Item iv) applies before v)!

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
shaftesbury shark 04 June, 2019 18:10
As mentioned above, it does appear very strange that according to that list, the losing semi-finalists in the Challenge Cup should qualify ahead of the losing finalist and semi-finalists in the Champions Cup though...


(Although I imagine usually those teams would qualify anyway via the top 6 routes from their own leagues.)

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
DaveAitch 04 June, 2019 18:34
Item iv is a play off match between the losing semi-finalists, unless already qualified. If one team has already qualified there is nothing to say, in what has been written, that the other team then qualify. Therefore it goes to item v.

Read again what Yareet has written and you will see he is correct.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
H's D 11 June, 2019 10:15
Your pedantic interpretation is completely illogical Dave, and flies in the face of our club's announcements and previous competition history, why does that not surprise me?(Sm150)

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Yareet 11 June, 2019 12:31
Quote:
H's D
Your pedantic interpretation is completely illogical Dave, and flies in the face of our club's announcements and previous competition history, why does that not surprise me?(Sm150)



In Dave's defence, I read clause iv exactly that way. If either team has qualified, the play off can't happen. At the very least therefore we can all agree that the rules are terribly written and open to interpretation.

FWIW, The Times reported that we qualified "courtesy of Saracens winning the big one"

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
DaveAitch 11 June, 2019 13:26
Yareet, that the rules are terribly written was, I believe, your earlier point, and why I said you were correct. Only someone of H'S D 'intellect' would not be able to realise how badly written they are, but there you go.

H's D, of course the interpretation (I put on) is illogical. That is the point. Rules and regulations should not have to rely on an interpretation, whether logical or illogical. The writing should be clear and definite. It's a simple concept, but no great surprise that you can't grasp it.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
clutch 11 June, 2019 13:54
I also think Dave is correct. But who knows. It was written by a drunk child by the looks of it

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Yareet 11 June, 2019 15:18
Quote:
DaveAitch
Yareet, that the rules are terribly written was, I believe, your earlier point, and why I said you were correct.

I was just glad somebody for once said I was correct. (Sm91)

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
shaftesbury shark 12 June, 2019 17:47
So is this the interpretation:

If both losing Challenge Cup semi-finalists have not yet qualified for the Champion's Cup, then they both play-off, with the winner qualifying.

If one of the losing Challenge Cup semi-finalists has qualified for the Champion's Cup then the other semi-finalist can no longer qualify, and the last qualifying place goes instead to the highest non-qualifying team in the Champions Cup winner's league?

If that is correct then that is insane.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Yareet 12 June, 2019 19:30
Quote:
shaftesbury shark
So is this the interpretation:
If both losing Challenge Cup semi-finalists have not yet qualified for the Champion's Cup, then they both play-off, with the winner qualifying.

If one of the losing Challenge Cup semi-finalists has qualified for the Champion's Cup then the other semi-finalist can no longer qualify, and the last qualifying place goes instead to the highest non-qualifying team in the Champions Cup winner's league?

If that is correct then that is insane.

That is my interpretation, yes.

And as The Major (?) pointed out, itís insane that the Champions Cup losing finalist doesnít get a place when the losing semifinalists from the Challenge Cup do.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
H's D 12 June, 2019 20:03
I think rugby political and marketing logic applies.
ie. the powers that be behind designing the two tier competitions have laid out the rules requiring a place in the Champions Cup the next season for a team that does well in the Challenge Cup competition, with at least one place saved for a team that qualifies by that virtue alone!
The hierarchy of qualifying criteria phrases ensures that, (unless 4 Challenge Cup playing teams qualify by other routes).
Raison d'etre; it becomes a far more meaningful competition in relation to the Champions cup qualification the following season.

That makes sense to me (albeit it's poorly worded).
The rest of you no doubt voted Brexit!(Sm7)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/06/2019 20:09 by H's D.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
clutch 12 June, 2019 20:15
But is that a soft or hard hierarchy of qualifying criteria.

Itís lacking a caveat. Your interpretation is literal but Iím still not sure if that is the case.

Hopefully we wonít need to worry about it going forward.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
PoyntonShark 13 June, 2019 06:34
I've been thinking about that lack of place for Champions cup losers and/or semi finalists. (As I no longer live in UK I am not consumed by Brexit). Remember, this is solely for the 20th remaining spot. Clearly league positions in the season before is the main driver for qualification, as it should be. It is also correct that the Champions Cup winner should be guaranteed a place next season, though would have thought it extremely unlikely that this option is ever exercised. I guess the EPCR Board then decided that any level of 'failure' in Champions Cup would not be rewarded with a place, instead choosing to increase the importance of progressing in Challenge Cup, hoping to prevent clubs seeing the competition as 'Mickey Mouse' (not an entirely successful measure). So, I don't think the criteria are without merit even if the written ruling isn't as clear as it could be.
I am still not as convinced as Dave that Yareet is right, but that interpretation does make sense to me. Yet, I still don't care, as we qualify in either case.



Unhappiness, where's when I was young
And we didn't give a damn
'Cause we were raised
To see life as a fun and take it if we can

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
ale shark 13 June, 2019 08:13
Out of internet has there ever been a case of a losing finalist finishing outside the top 6 of their league?

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Yareet 13 June, 2019 12:22
Quote:
ale shark
Out of internet has there ever been a case of a losing finalist finishing outside the top 6 of their league?

I'd guess not but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

As a hypothetical, what would we do as a DoR if the league was as tight as this season but we got to a Champions Cup Final? Were there still 1 or 2 rounds of the Prem left after the final?

Do you go full bore in the Final against a Sarries/Leinster/Clermont and risk coming 7th?

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
clutch 13 June, 2019 12:41
We have a squad that should be able to cope.

Nevertheless we go full on and if we are played 3 lost 3 we adjust and the likes of Redpath and Luke James start. The impact is worse if you start to do quite well and have a vague chance of qualifying.

Iíd take 7th and getting to the quarters. Getting to the quarters would be a quite remarkable achievement for the club.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Yareet 13 June, 2019 14:03
Quote:
clutch
We have a squad that should be able to cope.
Nevertheless we go full on and if we are played 3 lost 3 we adjust and the likes of Redpath and Luke James start. The impact is worse if you start to do quite well and have a vague chance of qualifying.

Iíd take 7th and getting to the quarters. Getting to the quarters would be a quite remarkable achievement for the club.

Sorry badly worded question (assuming you were responding to me). If your team had the Champs Cup final this weekend but were 7th in the league and had 2 rounds of the league left, do you go all out for the win in the final or rest players to go all out for the top 6?

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Yareet 19 June, 2019 13:35
To confuse this further, Sara Elgin just said on the draw that we qualified as a Challenge Cup semifinalist....

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Irish_Shark 19 June, 2019 13:48
Quote:
Yareet
To confuse this further, Sara Elgin just said on the draw that we qualified as a Challenge Cup semifinalist....

Actually it clarifies the situation since she has her information from epcr.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Surbiton Shark 19 June, 2019 13:58
So we ended up with La Rochelle, Exeter & Glasgow

I think La Rochelle was the tricky one to get to out of tourist season?

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
LJK 19 June, 2019 15:18
No easy pools of course, but that is a bit less daunting than having to face Saracens or Leinster, one of whom I assumed we would be sharing with as the last team to qualify into the competition.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
StalyShark 19 June, 2019 16:50
In terms of teams that we could do well against Iíd probably given the chance choose the ones we have. Exeter have been poor in Europe, Glasgow being a Pro14 team are overrated and we know we can go away to La Rochelle and push them. Now we have so much more depth and quality I wouldnít be that surprised if we spring quite a few shocks.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Windgather 19 June, 2019 16:52
That could have been a lot worse. Famous last words when we come 4/4.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
thekeg 19 June, 2019 17:00
Quote:
StalyShark
In terms of teams that we could do well against Iíd probably given the chance choose the ones we have. Exeter have been poor in Europe, Glasgow being a Pro14 team are overrated and we know we can go away to La Rochelle and push them. Now we have so much more depth and quality I wouldnít be that surprised if we spring quite a few shocks.

Itís probably the group where the teams are closest in standard. I think Exeter are probably the weakest top seed (although clearly a very good team) and I think we will be one of better 4th seeds next year

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
H's D 19 June, 2019 20:04
Quote:
Yareet
To confuse this further, Sara Elgin just said on the draw that we qualified as a Challenge Cup semifinalist....
Only in your (and a couple of other misguided souls) minds Yareet!
Some feel vindicated in their opinion and interpretation of events wrt the relevant rules!(Sm85)(Sm86)
After the Premiership final this year I certainly wouldn't think of Exeter as particularly weaker than Sarries. With a young core to their team they will be considerably stronger next year and the one thing they seemed to comparatively lack, experience in finals, has been, to some extent, corrected.
La Rochelle are well within our ability to beat, Glasgow, somewhat more daunting, IMHO. But they have just lost a couple of gamechangers, so perhaps not.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 19/06/2019 20:25 by H's D.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
thekeg 19 June, 2019 21:49
I think the difference between Exeter and sarries here is that sarries have dominated Europe for a while whereas Exeter have struggled. They just look a different side in Europe and even though it shouldnít make a difference on paper I think it does in reality, particularly if other results have gone against them. Iíd much rather have them in our group

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
PoyntonShark 20 June, 2019 03:45
There shouldn't be any easy games in this comp, but looking at other groups I don't think I would willingly swap us into any of them. Reckon we will be the most improved squad for next season, on paper at least. La Rochelle may be a different beast with O'Gara at the helm.

Quote:
Irish_Shark
Actually it clarifies the situation since she has her information from epcr.

Do you know that? or are you just surmising? Could she just be making the same interpretation that some of us have made?



Unhappiness, where's when I was young
And we didn't give a damn
'Cause we were raised
To see life as a fun and take it if we can

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
H's D 20 June, 2019 10:34
thekeg is perfectly correct, European experience is key, but more humility is needed....

Apply the same assessment to Sale Sharks and every single team in the Championship will be a huge challenge, (with the possible exception of La Rochelle - but as thekeg indicates O'Gara at the helm adds loads of European experience).
How much more improved we will be remains to be seen....those eggs are a long way from hatching.
Do we have any "winning experience" amongst our squad in the top European competition. None whilst playing for SS, a bit through Strauss, Yarde and Ashton. Not sure about McGinty.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
thekeg 20 June, 2019 11:11
Quote:
H's D
thekeg is perfectly correct, European experience is key, but more humility is needed....
Apply the same assessment to Sale Sharks and every single team in the Championship will be a huge challenge, (with the possible exception of La Rochelle - but as thekeg indicates O'Gara at the helm adds loads of European experience).
How much more improved we will be remains to be seen....those eggs are a long way from hatching.
Do we have any "winning experience" amongst our squad in the top European competition. None whilst playing for SS, a bit through Strauss, Yarde and Ashton. Not sure about McGinty.

Completely agree on us, particularly as far as Europe is concerned, we have absolutely no champions cup pedigree at all really. Iíd personally be happy if we came out of that group with two wins.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
DaveAitch 28 June, 2019 20:46
Quote:
Yareet
To confuse this further, Sara Elgin just said on the draw that we qualified as a Challenge Cup semifinalist....
There is probably only one person on this forum who doesn't think that the EPCR wording is poor and open to interpretation. In fact, the wording is so poor he could have written it.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
H's D 03 July, 2019 20:10
No-one disputed that the wording wasn't imprecise and open to misinterpretation, Dave.
I certainly made no comment either way.
However if one engaged a bit of common sense in interpretation, IMHO, there was only one logical, correct answer.
One merely had to think about their likely intent in writing the rules, i.e. making the competition more meaningful and important for participants.
Clearly that was beyond you, it appears pedantic interpretation and insults are all you can cope with.(Sm150) Have a good summer.

Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
tmc1963 01 August, 2019 18:27
'Glasgow being a Pro14 team are overrated'

New to rugby are you?


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