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Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
1972shark (IP Logged)
11 May, 2019 18:10
So, if we finish outside top 6, can we still qualify by virtue of our losing Champions Cup semi and other clubs finishing positions?

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
clutch (IP Logged)
11 May, 2019 18:52
Seemingly but who knows.

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Irish_Shark (IP Logged)
11 May, 2019 18:56
Saracens winning helps

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Yareet (IP Logged)
11 May, 2019 19:35
Quote:
Irish_Shark
Saracens winning helps

My understanding is that the 20th spot will go to:

La Rochelle (as losing Challenge Cup finalist)
unless they come top 6 in which case...

Playoff between Us/Quins as losing Challenge Cup semifinalists
although I think the rules as written don’t allow for this as one of us will be Top 6 so we go to...

7th place in the Gallagher Prem

If we are not Top 6, I THINK Quins have to be so if we finish Top 7, we should at worst be in a playoff (assuming La Rochelle stay top 6).

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
thekeg (IP Logged)
11 May, 2019 19:35
I think beating Gloucester would definitely be enoughnkw even without LR finishing top 6

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Yareet (IP Logged)
11 May, 2019 19:38
Quote:
thekeg
I think beating Gloucester would definitely be enoughnkw even without LR finishing top 6

True

And it’s definitely the best option as then we wouldn’t be going into the 20th spot and wouldn’t be in the lowest seeding.

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
iBozz (IP Logged)
11 May, 2019 20:15
Quote:
Irish_Shark
Saracens winning helps

FT: Leinster 10-20 Saracens



No matter what you say, or how you say it, someone somewhere will deliberately go out of their way to be offended.

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South Stand with The New Birtles Faithful.

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
thekeg (IP Logged)
11 May, 2019 21:49
Quote:
Yareet
Quote:
thekeg
I think beating Gloucester would definitely be enoughnkw even without LR finishing top 6

True

And it’s definitely the best option as then we wouldn’t be going into the 20th spot and wouldn’t be in the lowest seeding.

Not if winning still means we finish 7th

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Cornerball (IP Logged)
18 May, 2019 23:45
So we've finished 7th after Baths last ditch effort. To qualify for the Champions Cup we need LA Rochelle to finish on the top 6?



Cornerball

______________________________________________________
The glass isn't half empty or half full -
It's too small

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
clutch (IP Logged)
18 May, 2019 23:55
Yeah. They have Bordeaux at home and they can’t make the top 6 so should have nothing to play for. Plus, the are a French team away from home.

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
H's D (IP Logged)
19 May, 2019 00:34
We are not quite home and dry.
La Rochelle are 5 points clear of Montpelier who have won 3 less games in the League.
However that doesn't that make it impossible for Montpelier to overhaul them!
Mostly because they have a game in hand.
If Montpelier beat Stade Francaise tomorrow it's still wide open.
Moreover.......
TOP14 rules
In the event of a tie on points, league position is then decided on league points earned in matches between the two teams. Failing that points scored in the two games..
Montpelier won easily at home (36-14) with a 4 try bonus point and lost narrowly (27-25) with a narrow loss losing bonus point away v La Rochelle.
Their couple of extra bonus points would mean that Montpelier still could indeed finish 6th, even if they lose tomorrow.

We won't know for certain till the afternoon of the 25th May.
Either way they will need a better result in the final round than the winner of tomorrow's match...
AND
La Rochelle will need at least a point Home v Bordeaux Begles (9th) to stay 6th IF Montpelier somehow manage to score a bonus point win away at Clermont (who have finished 2nd)!

However it's looking like an odds-on certainty that we will indeed be in the Champions Cup next season.(Sm152)
I'm happily clucking, going into lay mode.....



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 19/05/2019 01:04 by H's D.

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Irish_Shark (IP Logged)
19 May, 2019 07:18
If montpellier lose stade Francais move into contention as they play pau next week

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
ale shark (IP Logged)
19 May, 2019 07:38
Given that we dropped from 5 to 7 whilst I was on the shuttle bus due to late scores elsewhere I don’t think it’s safe to assume anything! La Rochelle can still come 4th so at least they’ve got an incentive to keep going rather than settle for 7th.

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Sussex Shark (IP Logged)
19 May, 2019 07:48
Plus La Rochelle I would have thought would want to get into the play offs which is top 6 in France I think. So still a lot to play for over there.

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
H's D (IP Logged)
19 May, 2019 09:17
Quote:
Irish shark
If montpellier lose stade Francais move into contention as they play pau next week
Didn't....
"We won't know for certain till the afternoon of the 25th May.
Either way they (La Rochelle) will need a better result in the final round than the winner of tomorrow's match (between Montpelier & Stade Francais)... "
say exactly that...?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 19/05/2019 09:19 by H's D.

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
19 May, 2019 09:44
By the time the final round comes round Clermont might be not in a position to come first in the league. They might play their second string in the final match and gift the opposition a win. I know it's unlikely for any side to field an intentionally weakened team in any game, but there is just that possibility.

I think the most points for any game is France is 6. The bonus try points are awarded for finishing with more tries than the opposition (is it three?), so only one team can register a try bonus. With the 'right' result both of today's teams, Montpellier and Stade Francais, can stay in contention. Interestingly, if my interpretation of the French rules has been correct, neither Sale nor Gloucester would have had a try bonus point from yesterday's game.

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
H's D (IP Logged)
19 May, 2019 10:04
Not quite correct Dave... Especially in that one team can only score a maximum of 5 points from a match.
The sixth point for the loser is as rare as hen's teeth. I can't even find a single example.
The reason:
Quote:
wiki
France's bonus point system operates as follows:
4 points for a win.
2 points for a draw.
1 bonus point for winning while scoring at least 3 more tries than the opponent. This replaces the standard bonus point for scoring 4 tries regardless of the match result.
1 bonus point for losing by 5 points (or fewer). The margin had been 7 points until being changed prior to the 2014–15 season.

To lose by more than three tries but stay within 5 points is a Herculean achievement.

However a draw would indeed leave it down to the relative results in the final round....La Rochelle would need to win to be certain of staying sixth.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 19/05/2019 10:07 by H's D.

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
19 May, 2019 10:22
You may be right on the losing bonus point, H's D. I think it was 7, as here, but they downgraded to 5 a few seasons ago, but I can't say that I have looked since and maybe it doesn't exist now.


In some ways the French try bonus system is more sensible than the straight bonus point for four tries or more.

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
clutch (IP Logged)
19 May, 2019 11:06
We would have against Leicester. We scored 5 tries. Don’t think they scored any?

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
philthefluter (IP Logged)
19 May, 2019 11:49
Up to last week most people were of the opinion (me included) that if Sarries beat Leinster then 7th place in the Premiership qualified for the Champions Cup.

What's changed? Why is that now not the case?

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
clutch (IP Logged)
19 May, 2019 12:13
7th is lower in the order of priority than the challenge cup. So if La Rochelle don’t make it via the pro 12 route they qualify via being losing finalists.

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Oldham Shark II (IP Logged)
19 May, 2019 13:30
Montpellier have just jumped into 6th place after stuffing Stade, so I'm assuming Champions Cup is now looking very precarious indeed.

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
clutch (IP Logged)
19 May, 2019 13:56
@#$%&. Though La Rochelle are at home to Bordeaux-Begles and Montpellier away to Clement.
Fingers crossed.

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
thekeg (IP Logged)
19 May, 2019 14:05
Wouldn’t say precarious as Montpellier go to clermont next week and LR have a v winnable home game

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
DaveAitch (IP Logged)
19 May, 2019 15:10
Quote:
clutch
7th is lower in the order of priority than the challenge cup. So if La Rochelle don’t make it via the pro 12 route they qualify via being losing finalists.

Frankly, I would be very surprised if La Rochelle made it via the pro 12 route! (Yes, I know it was just a slip of the keyboard.)

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
clutch (IP Logged)
19 May, 2019 15:38
Who knows. Go back in time and let French teams in. Stranger things have happened.

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
philthefluter (IP Logged)
19 May, 2019 16:05
So Sarries beating Leinster had no bearing on it?

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
H's D (IP Logged)
19 May, 2019 17:33
It did then facilitating the 7th place route but it doesn't now!

My clutch of eggs are looking decidedly fragile...La Rochelle are 6 points clear in 7th with only 5 points up for grabs in the final round for each team.
They will enter the last game realizing that they are already qualified for the Champions Cup!
They don't need to win. The patriotic thing to do would be to let Montpelier stay in 6th condemning the anti-European Brexit-obsessed Brits in the form of Sale to the second string competition....(Sm113)

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
StalyShark (IP Logged)
19 May, 2019 17:38
Quote:
H's D
It did then facilitating the 7th place route but it doesn't now!
My clutch of eggs are looking decidedly fragile...La Rochelle are 6 points clear in 7th with only 5 points up for grabs in the final round for each team.
They will enter the last game realizing that they are already qualified for the Champions Cup!
They don't need to win. The patriotic thing to do would be to let Montpelier stay in 6th condemning the anti-European Brexit-obsessed Brits in the form of Sale to the second string competition....(Sm113)

However, 6th gets them into the playoffs and didn’t Castres win it even though they came 6th last year?

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Rich. (IP Logged)
20 May, 2019 09:14
Quote:
philthefluter
So Sarries beating Leinster had no bearing on it?

Yes it did - if Leinster had won then it would certainly be Challenge Cup next season as the 20th spot would go to a Guiness Pro 14 team.

La Rochelle will certainly not be satisfied to have 7 place in Top 14 so will be going for it next week - so are very likely to get a maximum points win against Bordeaux. Clermont will not want to lose at home + even more so as they have a week off (while 3 - 6 th play off) so will play their beat team and go for it to give them some momentum going into the semi-finals.

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
ale shark (IP Logged)
20 May, 2019 09:48
La Rochelle have now already qualified for the Champions Cup either way. They may have a sub-conscious greater collective enthusiasm for the beach rather than extending their season by up to 3 weeks.

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
clutch (IP Logged)
20 May, 2019 10:14
They can still win the league. Think 6th gets into play offs. Either way they can still make 4th.

Pretty sure Castres finished below 4th last year.

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Rich. (IP Logged)
20 May, 2019 10:17
Yes Top 14 far more important in France that Champions Cup.

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
NorthernMaori (IP Logged)
20 May, 2019 11:30
We can still make the Champions Cup; and you would suspect that La Rochelle should qualify through the Top14 given the French clubs don't seem to travel that well for league fixtures.

Having said that, you have to question whether we would want to get in to the Champions Cup (except for the money) next season given that we will be one of the lowest ranked teams and therefore will in all likelihood have one of the toughest pools. Will potentially being beaten up for consecutive weeks of the season really do us that much good? We have seen before how the Club has struggled in the league when we also have the top European comp. I know we have recruited well for next season but the large influx of players, plus the World Cup could derail the best laid plans.

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
ale shark (IP Logged)
20 May, 2019 12:00
We need Champions Cup now with the bigger/better squad. We'll pick up a few defeats but we've got to start to increase our ranking and qualify year or year. Newcastle had a couple of great wins this year as well so anything is possible. If our players gel and are fit on paper we’re a match for anyone.

I imagine there'd be a decent boost in season ticket sales if we qualify as well.

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
WiganSaler (IP Logged)
20 May, 2019 13:17
If's but's and maybe's... were there no bonus points just 4 points for the win and 2 for the draw we would be in 4th place on 11 wins and 2 draws with 48 points and in the play off's. Proving again BP's are vital, or...?



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Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Major Bloodnok (IP Logged)
20 May, 2019 14:49
Thus showing that BPs do the job they were introduced to do: reward attacking play and fighting to the end.

If we'd won either of the games we drew, we'd be 4th, even with bonus points in place. We didn't, so we're not.



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Somewhere in the South Stand

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
H's D (IP Logged)
20 May, 2019 18:36
I expect Bath supporters are saying exactly the same thing. Nevertheless points difference tends to be a good guide and on that basis the current top 4 deserve their places...

 
Re: Champions Cup Place Without a Top 6 Finish?
Yareet (IP Logged)
20 May, 2019 19:29
Quote:
Major Bloodnok
Thus showing that BPs do the job they were introduced to do: reward attacking play and fighting to the end.
If we'd won either of the games we drew, we'd be 4th, even with bonus points in place. We didn't, so we're not.

Agreed. Quins fans are asking “What if?” about Lang’s missed kick. Granted it was the last play of the last play of season but ultimately it had less effect than Faf hitting the post against Bristol.


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