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MESSAGES->author
Ambition and reality, two different things...
Tiz (IP Logged)
18 March, 2012 18:53
Supporting a sports team is all about expectation, excitement and a release from (certainly my) every day drudgery. What we tend to get from Leeds, is frustration, disappointment and down right misery. It's not really the manager or players fault. Not everyone can be top of their game in any walk of life. I work in IT, and there are good and bad in that line of work, believe me!!
As a supporter (which I have been from the beginning) we have to decide what we realistically want, and what we can realistically achieve. The fact of the matter it, without a Cecil Duckworth or similar, we will never be a top end Premiership side. The guys that play for Leeds want to win, of course they do, but they aint good enough to fulfil all of our expectations.
As long as Leeds survive (and that is my main worry) I will support them. I can't see them getting to the Premiership for many years, without a very rich Backer.
As hard to chew as all that may be, its a fact. I was there today and will be there next week despite the miles I have to travel. I don't expect anything next week, but a 100% improvement in aggression and commitment would help.
I don't believe we need a new coach.............we just need a Cecil Duckworth!!!!

Tiz

 
haxbytyke
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Haxbytyke (IP Logged)
18 March, 2012 19:34
Tiz, you are correct in what you say, but the reality is, we are only two points behind the second placed team with four games to go. That is hardly insurmountable if we can play something like. Not something like today.



COME ON LEEDS.
We've been through it all together.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
SoopaLeeds (IP Logged)
18 March, 2012 19:36
You're right Hax, but even I'm losing the optimism after today

(Sm17)

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Beeston Lion (IP Logged)
18 March, 2012 19:46
We have had talk in the past "about must win games" and I generally have not necessarily agreed. Andy Titterell, in his piece after todays match, used that well worn phrase about next weeks Bedford game and in the circumstances we find ourselves he is spot on, but only if we have any ambition whatsoever left at HC. I am still not talking about getting promotion but, showing any interest in proving that we are a side who have come on over the season and still want to show that to anyone who might be remotely interested.

 
haxbytyke
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Haxbytyke (IP Logged)
18 March, 2012 19:47
Three things that have been commented upon this season, again came to the fore today. Firstly we lack pace out wide, the one half chance we had in the first half went begging. Secondly, the one on one tackling today was woeful, almost every player managed to miss at least one tackle. Finally, and maybe this is just me, but I didn't think we looked anywhere near fit today. Roth are not a full time professional team to my knowledge, but they outlasted us.



COME ON LEEDS.
We've been through it all together.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18/03/2012 19:52 by Haxbytyke.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
SoopaLeeds (IP Logged)
18 March, 2012 19:52
I think there was a certain hunger missing - not sure it's a lack of physical fitness, more a psychological fitness.

 
Bran
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Bran (IP Logged)
18 March, 2012 20:36
I would question if the club has any ambition beyond staying in the championship, becoming a semi-pro team and just existing to supply and academy and Sale (while they remain top flight) . The game today was embarrassing, and for the second time in my life I left early. I had to run around like a mad man to make the game on time, it would have been nice if the team had bothered to turn up.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Freddyshark (IP Logged)
18 March, 2012 21:03
Hax what you say is spot on and i agree with you...what is very sad is the fact that we are paying such a lot of money to support a team that in reality has not played well all season and does not have more than an outside chance of winning through the playoffs.

I would mind so much if the prices reflected the reality of the team and its abilities.



Love thy fellow man and be happy

 
haxbytyke
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Haxbytyke (IP Logged)
18 March, 2012 21:56
Freddy, today aside, this Leeds side HAS come on this season. 4 defeats from the first 5 games had us looking at a possible bottom four finish, but the side have grown up, and although they haven't been consistent, they have scrapped like hell to win some very close games.
Why we have struggled, with the experienced players we have, and against some part time opponents I don't know, but I do believe, that a few players who did not look out of place in the Premiership, have not stamped their authority in this division as we hoped they would.
Injuries to key players have also not helped, but putting everything into perspective, I think we have had a decent season. Today's result could have an enormous impact on what happens next. Do the team implode, and throw in the towel, or do they show us what they can do? I hope it's the latter, because there is still a chance, even after today's debacle, that we could make the semi finals.



COME ON LEEDS.
We've been through it all together.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 18/03/2012 22:41 by Haxbytyke.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Freddyshark (IP Logged)
18 March, 2012 22:46
maybe but it really isnt a side that inspires confidence generally i.e. a side that you expect will have a chance of winning every game. Its more a case of if everyone plays well...maybe...if the ref gives us a bit maybe.

I agree we did have a decent season but then I didnt have much by way of expectation. It would be lovely if we get through the playoffs but I dont expect the team to do it. I never have..I just dont think you can be indifferent for most of the season with the aim of building momentum towards the last few games. In my humble opinion winning builds confidence in a side...

I just go now to enjoy the games as best as I can. Most games have been pretty dire over the 80 minutes with the odd bit of brilliance here and there....but you know what...I dont really care because I like my rugby and I enjoy taking the trip to see Leeds play.

I would like the prices to be a little bit lower but everything in life costs an arm and a leg these days so why should second division rugby in Leeds be any different.

If by some miracle Leeds do get through the playoffs what is the prognosis for the side going forward. Clearly this team isnt good enough for the prem as it is...will there be any money to spend. The evidence suggests not unless some moneybags steps forward. If this is the case I personally dont want to see them struggle every game towards another relegation.

Being competitive in the champ seems a better bet unless the club do have genuine ambition and demonstrate positively that they are going to do something about it.



Love thy fellow man and be happy

 
haxbytyke
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Haxbytyke (IP Logged)
18 March, 2012 22:53
Freddy, the only guarantee of finance coming into the club is by gaining promotion. There is about a £2 million difference in funding between the Prem and the Championship.
I do not want to see the team getting hammered every week, but I do want the club to survive, and therefore, even after today, I cling to the belief that we can get promotion, because in my opinion, that will safeguard the future of the club for the next few years.



COME ON LEEDS.
We've been through it all together.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Tiz (IP Logged)
19 March, 2012 07:42
Quote:
Freddy
maybe but it really isnt a side that inspires confidence generally i.e. a side that you expect will have a chance of winning every game. Its more a case of if everyone plays well...maybe...if the ref gives us a bit maybe.
I agree we did have a decent season but then I didnt have much by way of expectation. It would be lovely if we get through the playoffs but I dont expect the team to do it. I never have..I just dont think you can be indifferent for most of the season with the aim of building momentum towards the last few games. In my humble opinion winning builds confidence in a side...

I just go now to enjoy the games as best as I can. Most games have been pretty dire over the 80 minutes with the odd bit of brilliance here and there....but you know what...I dont really care because I like my rugby and I enjoy taking the trip to see Leeds play.

I would like the prices to be a little bit lower but everything in life costs an arm and a leg these days so why should second division rugby in Leeds be any different.

If by some miracle Leeds do get through the playoffs what is the prognosis for the side going forward. Clearly this team isnt good enough for the prem as it is...will there be any money to spend. The evidence suggests not unless some moneybags steps forward. If this is the case I personally dont want to see them struggle every game towards another relegation.

Being competitive in the champ seems a better bet unless the club do have genuine ambition and demonstrate positively that they are going to do something about it.

I agree with pretty much everything you have said Freddy, but the thing that hurts us is that we can't stay in the Championship with confidence. What I mean by that is that any good players we have "nurtured" over the season tend to get poached or leave, and we are back into that vicious cirle of trying to build a team for "next season". I like you enjoy the game and go anyway. The main thing is like Haxby eluded to and I said earlier, we need to survive, in one shape or another.

Cheers

Tiz

 
williamwebbellis
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
williamwebbellis (IP Logged)
19 March, 2012 10:50
Quote:
Tiz
/quote]
I agree with pretty much everything you have said Freddy, but the thing that hurts us is that we can't stay in the Championship with confidence. What I mean by that is that any good players we have "nurtured" over the season tend to get poached or leave, and we are back into that vicious cirle of trying to build a team for "next season". I like you enjoy the game and go anyway. The main thing is like Haxby eluded to and I said earlier, we need to survive, in one shape or another.

Cheers

Tiz

You are absolutely right Tiz but I’m afraid we may have to get used to it if Leeds is to survive.

Rotherham operate in exactly the same way, however their supporters have come to terms with their financial limitations over the years, and have learned to enjoy their rugby through the development of talent at Rotherham and the success of their ‘graduates’ as they leave. They are often the butt of everyone’s jokes because of their facilities etc and I note that their creditable performance of yesterday is already being criticised on a separate thread, unfairly in my view. They hold the likes of Lee Blackett, Hendre Fourie, Eric Lund, I’m sure there are others, close to their hearts despite losing them all to Leeds in the past. It seems they have found their niche in the league although I very much doubt that Mr Bester sees it that way.

We will undoubtedly lose a lot of players at the end of the season, but I think the ones that will go have not been ‘nurtured’ at all over this season, so perhaps there’s a margin of fairness there if we need one. If you look at the team selection of yesterday I think you will see the skeleton of next year’s squad (if we are in the championship) with the addition of some new promising talent picked up from within this league or lower and the next batch of Sale players for development that Steve Diamond has alluded to in interviews earlier in the season.

But its not all over yet…Never say die…Always look on the bight side of life…

...I continue to be an optimistic realist LOOKING FORWARD to the Bedford game.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 19/03/2012 12:16 by williamwebbellis.

 
Bran
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Bran (IP Logged)
19 March, 2012 12:51
The most dissapointing parts for me is the inconsistancey, and lack of passion. The team this year has made good progress, but as haxby said a few of the senior players have not stood up in the way we expected whether we had too great expectations or not could be part of this. However this has been going on for many years now. Gusket once commented about the intimidating atmosphere at Leeds. There is nome of that now. The crowd generaly is lacklustre, like the displays, you could sit and read a book quite peacfully at a HC game. This should not be the case. I can think of 2 games in the last 2 seasons where we were entertained and the crowd responded. Gommers and rony are the last 2 players to encourage the crowd. The crowd has thinned over the years, and expect another year in the championship ( at least) and the crowd will thin some more.Less crowd less money, less atmosphere-it's not looking too good to me. As it stands, Leeds only hope is a change of heart between Premier rugby and the RFU (I cant see a rich sugar daddy turning up) I think the price Leeds have paid so far is yet to become even higher. I would expect to loose more players and continue to do so. Just as Roth do, develop players for the bigger fish. My concern is how long will Leeds continue to do this with an ever decreasing income and ever increasing expense?

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
PorthosTyke (IP Logged)
19 March, 2012 13:42
Obviously you do need a Cecil to succeed in the Premiership. That is what makes that competition (to me) a joke. Why not just sort the teams into order of who's got the most cash, give the richest ones the cup and avoid the need for all the messy rugby in between?

The thing with Leeds this season is that we have produced some very, very good performances. London Welsh away, Bedford away, London Scottish away, the second Cornish away and even Moseley away are all examples. There's a pattern there if you look closely.

But most of the home games have been absolute dross. If a supporter isn't able to travel away all they've seen has been rubbish.

If we could nail exactly why we can play very well away from home, but struggle to string two passes together at home, we might start getting somewhere. Either that or find a millionaire and just buy a team.

PT

 
Bran
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Bran (IP Logged)
19 March, 2012 15:19
I haven't bothered going away for 3 years, because of what I see at home. I just aren't bothered to waste my time and money. Maybe I should watch away games and give up the 4 season tickets?

 
arkivist
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
arkivist (IP Logged)
19 March, 2012 17:47
It's not just about a "Cecil". It is also about good support to bring in more money from attendances and off field commercial activity to bring more cash in from that. Having said that, I am not aware that London Welsh, Rotherham & Bedford are actually rolling in it either, at least not to the extent of being able to "buy" their way to promotion - so their must be other factors such as squad quality and coaching quality. Whatever the problem there is never "a" solution. A problem is usually multi facetted and the solution is always more than just "one" solution.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
PorthosTyke (IP Logged)
19 March, 2012 19:14
Quote:
Bran
I haven't bothered going away for 3 years, because of what I see at home. I just aren't bothered to waste my time and money. Maybe I should watch away games and give up the 4 season tickets?

You're missing out.

I'll be at Bedford. I expect we'll get stuffed, but you never know. I might be surprised like at Welsh.

Either way, the beer and whole "match experience" will be streets ahead of Headingley, which reinforces arkivist's point above.

PT

 
Bran
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Bran (IP Logged)
19 March, 2012 21:20
Parthos, I've been to many, Ireland twice, Plymouth Leicester Roth the usual ones and had a great time, but watching Leeds carnegie has become a chor not a pleasure. I have met some truly fantastic people be it fans home/ away, players family or just locals, but the cost financially, and time involved just can no longer be justified for the dross that gets rolled up. I want to watch Leeds win games,and to be honest the way we do the only reason to go to an away game is to have a trip away. I spend little enough time at home so cannot justify any more. Leeds Rugby and the players need to realise if you don't win at home (before the last kick of the game) your going to have very few people paying to watch you. Without paying customers you don't have a wage.

 
CX7
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
CX7 (IP Logged)
19 March, 2012 22:26
The financial benefits of Headingley and Roundhay joining Leeds rugby and becoming a dual code club where beneficial to the rugby union element as it was at a time when rugby union was seen to be the new cash cow that rugby league was. Remember Sir John Hall's ambitions at Newcastle, Barry Hearne at Bedford? Sorry for going back so far, but the simple fact is, that like all sports, the financial benefits are for the top teams and Leeds rugby is not prepared or has not got the money to sustain a ten year programme to establish a club at the top flight.
I believe the business is managed to benefit of the league side of the club. Garry Hetherington's heart is not into Union beyond the balance sheet. We are the "poor relations" and always will be. It breaks my heart to see how the club has slowly declined from the early days of promotion in 2001 when we attracted quality players. The grand plan is over, as Steve Thompson said there is no ambition at the club. We need to go our separate ways and have a truly dedicated organisation that wants to manage a rugby union club.
The "icing on the cake" is that it appears we had one of the best coaches in the country; Stuart Lancaster and he walked away!
One last question how often do you watch rugby on TV and say to your self " he is a good player he use to play for Leeds"?

 
Bran
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Bran (IP Logged)
19 March, 2012 22:29
so true cx7. Where did you come from?

 
Dr Zaius
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Dr Zaius (IP Logged)
19 March, 2012 23:11
The sad fact is the club has burned through millions and millions of pounds of Paul Caddick's and Leeds Met's money over the past 15 years. The setup isn't skewed towards the League club other than in the mere fact that they are bigger. For now, Carnegie is living off £1.6m of money borrowed from the Rhinos.

 
CX7
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
CX7 (IP Logged)
19 March, 2012 23:46
I have no knowledge of Leeds financial dealings. So when did the money run out? Do you think the Rhinos are content at taking such a large risk if we do not get promotion? Will they just right the loss off if there is no promotion or will Carnegie be wound up? I am sure it is more complex than that, but the money situation has always dictated the way Carnegie have performed.

 
inside pass
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
inside pass (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 08:51
Quote:
CX7
We need to go our separate ways and have a truly dedicated organisation that wants to manage a rugby union club.
Think that CX7 has hit the nail on the head.
The big question though is how !!

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Freddyshark (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 10:09
CX7 you make some very valid points but this has been discussed on here many many times and I dont think you will make very much headway.

Hax, I agree that it is very sensible to say that finance will only come if we are in the prem. It is reasonable to assume this but the reality is that it hasnt happenend in any meaningful sense for the last two attempts at prem rugby.

I have always felt that the Leeds Rugby set up, the high cost of renting headingley, the debt and perhaps inhibit investment rather than encourage it.

If the club had its own ground and facilities that more accurateyl reflected the nature of the club, its fans and the attendance figures any one looking to invest might be more encouraged becasue there would be more control over how money was spent and more importantly more control over costs.

Just my view.



Love thy fellow man and be happy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 20/03/2012 10:15 by Freddy .

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Beeston Lion (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 10:55
Freddy, you may like to see Leeds Carnegie operate with its own ground but such a move would bring more, not less expenditure. The overheads of a single club outfit would be significantly higher and at HC we get all year round utilisation of a facility and staff availability, where there is crossover, cutting those potentially crippling costs. I feel that we need to try a deeper involvement in the joint operation than is currently apparent and realise that even the Rhinos are not having it all their own way at the moment, as Leeds Rugby have recently closed the city centre shop. I would venture to say that not much of that business was indebted to Leeds Carnegie for its sales figures.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Freddyshark (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 11:15
and we have to fit in with what Leeds Rugby want, pay huge amounts of money to rent a 25K capacity stadium when we have an average attendance of less than 3K..and this didnt change very much in the prem. The reality is that We are paying for facilities that the club doesnt need and probably makes little use of.

The inititial costs of moving Carnegie to something more sensible as you say would be difficult to manage but even then investers maybe encouraged to buy into this concept given that the clubs future would be entirely within its and their control.

In all honesty a ground share with Bradford and Bingley or an investement into Keighley Lions on a ground share basis would be far better than what we have at headingley in my and only (obviously) my opinion.

Anyway its all very interesting to discuss these things but we all know that nothing like this will ever happen. The club will carry on as it is...manfully soldiering on until the weight of the debt and Hetheringtons cold feet cause there to be a crisis point. Who knows when that will happen but it surely will at some stage.



Love thy fellow man and be happy

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Mark_C (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 11:19
It would be good if the club could repeat the talk-in with supporters that it held at the end of last season. I know there was supposed to be a write-up of the evening for the benefit of those of us who couldn't attend, but I must have missed that.

Maybe the fans forum will be a chance to air views and share communications.

Just as an aside towards saving costs, why don't we rebrand as 'Rhinos'? There's be some decent stash to buy, and I might even purchase a blue and amber brick instead of not being able to buy a green black and white one.

 
williamwebbellis
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
williamwebbellis (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 11:32
Quote:
PorthosTyke
The thing with Leeds this season is that we have produced some very, very good performances. London Welsh away, Bedford away, London Scottish away, the second Cornish away and even Moseley away are all examples. There's a pattern there if you look closely.



PT
I’ve been lucky enough to see all the away wins, and the performances at those matches, perhaps excluding Esher, have in my opinion been stand out.

Taking your question Porthos, ie there must be a pattern; I took some time to look at the team selections for those away win matches.

I looked at the number of appearances for each player across the 5 matches, and constructed a merged team using the players who made the most appearances across those 5 matches.

The first column is the merged team the second column is Sundays team.

I probably should have included the Cornish pirates draw, but it got to bed time!

You can draw your own conclusions, even if it is..... ‘that was a waste of time'(Sm124)

Away wins====== Rotherham home

1. denman======= lockwood
2. nilsen======== titterall
3. young======== halani
4. denton======= denton
5. honeck======== hemmingway
6. burrows====== williams
7. walker======= rowan
8. rowan======== burrows
9. shaw======== cliff
10.ford======== ford
11.lucock====== lucock
12.barker====== barrow
13.thornley====== thornley
14.stephenson===== mcoll
15.bell========= bell
16.mac====== mustafa
17.titterall====== nilsen
18.swainston====== young
19.hemmingway====== beck
20.beck=========== paul
21.hampson======= shaw
22.blackett====== davies

Before anyone says it...I know I should get out more!(Sm124)

 
Feeding
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Feeding (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 11:32
A regrouping of West yorks rugby would perhaps be sensible at present? I'm sure we would do better in the long term with our own dedicated ru ground.Both Otley and Harrogate are at the bottom of their league - Harrogate lose their ground at the end of next season and Otley have had long term financial problems - and Morley,who lost by 100 points a couple of weeks ago and are likely to drop into the north east league have enormous problems.Surely a regrouping of Leeds/West yorks rugby needs looking at,to provide a strong,ru base for the future?A new dedicated Club/ground in north Leeds/Otley area?

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
almostatyke (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 12:18
"A new dedicated Club/ground in north Leeds/Otley area?"

Somewhere good enough for England to train?



I wasn't born in Yorkshire, but I got here as soon as I could

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Freddyshark (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 14:10
Can't argue with your logic "feeding"

That Morley result was truley shocking. When I think of all the times I have been there over the years and the strong teams they have fielded it is very very sad......and the after match hospitality was always second to none.



Love thy fellow man and be happy

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
farmertyke (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 18:13
Ummm I must be missing the point but why move from a ground that has Premiership status to one that does not.

 
haxbytyke
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Haxbytyke (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 18:17
Amazingly enough at the end of the game on Sunday, some Roth fans said they were admiring our ground. I suppose they were comparing it to Clifton lane.



COME ON LEEDS.
We've been through it all together.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Wildwillie (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 18:59
All talk of a ground move is just that - talk! It just does not make financial sense.



[www.northernpubs.co.uk]

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
almostatyke (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 19:41
I agree whole heartedly with WW. Headingley is a centre of sporting excellence (shoot me down here if you want!) and we should try to play to the standard of the ground rather than retreat to a nice village club setting.



I wasn't born in Yorkshire, but I got here as soon as I could

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
farmertyke (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 19:44
Quite.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Mark_C (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 20:09
As long as Leeds harbour Premiership ambitions then Headingley is home!

 
ellishicks
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
ellishicks (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 21:14
WWE
I'm sorry all your hours of diligent research have been studiously ignored.
I loved it.(Sm128)

 
CX7
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
CX7 (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 21:18
The club has not got the ambition for the premiership. Hetherington has stated at the end of last season it is not financially sustainable. I believe he is content for us go up and down within the budget. It is not good for Leeds rugby to have a union partner constantly failing and a team that loses money. So why does it continue? Because it benefits the Rhino's indirectly whether it is sponsorship or funding from the RFU for the academy facilities? As I have said before i have no knowledge of the financial dealings but there some thing a miss.

This scenario is really not healthy for the real fans who bang the drum, wear bright hats and pay for season tickets. The rugby union element of the management team have got to draw a line and accept we are championship club and until we get a "Cecil". The club has no pride any more, we seem to be going through the motions and hoping we might get lucky.


I assure you I am not trying to @#$%& people off or stir things, but there is a time when enough is enough. Even if we win the championship and get promoted, will we dump this years team and buy in journey men? How can a reasonable premiership team be put together through the summer? We need to have quality players now mixing with the young players to ensure promotion so we can be able to survive in the premiership.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
almostatyke (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 21:29
CX7,
I understand your frustration but rather than blaming Mr Hethrington perhaps it is the crazy Championship play-off system which detracts sponsors (Cecils) and means that by the end of May, when promotion is decided, all but a few mercenary jouneymen are tied-up in premiership contracts.
P.S. I chaleange you to post on my "positive" thread above!

 
CX7
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
CX7 (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 22:26
Mr Hethrington calls the shots so he is responsible for the clubs style of business and performance.



The whole issue is do we live in hope or plan for the future and have realistic expectations. I believe that a realistic expectation is a positive strategy,



Regarding the journey men you mention that we will not be able to recruit, so who do we recruit championship journey men and get demoted.



We are in vicious circle and there is only one way to go if we do not have the money.



Brian Kennedy has pumped £16 million of his own money into Sale and they have struggled at times.



The positives in the club at the moment is that we are developing some good players and we probably have small salary budget, the club is reasonably financially secure, what is all credit to Garry Hetherington but we can not afford promotion with out significant business risk.



It is no good having "Champagne taste and Beer money".

 
Otley Tyke
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Otley Tyke (IP Logged)
21 March, 2012 10:46
I think this season has been terrible. We haven't had a game plan or a style. Look at roth, they know how they are going to play and stick to it.
We've really lacked something this season, feels like we have just scraped through it in every aspect.

DE was brought in to develop the young players, yet we have signed quite a few on loan from other clubs, it doesn't add up. We need a core of prem standard players, and work the youngsters round that.

I think we are lacking direction and drive. Be nice to know what the club are looking at in terms of next seaon, future. What's the plan?

 
williamwebbellis
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
williamwebbellis (IP Logged)
21 March, 2012 12:06
(Sm134)
Quote:
ellishicks
WWE
I'm sorry all your hours of diligent research have been studiously ignored.
I loved it.(Sm128)

Thank you Ellishicks.When I looked at all the home wins, the merged team (for the first 15) was the same as for the away wins, but for two players having equal appearances at 1, Mac/Denman, and Titts having more appearances than Nilsen at 2. I know its a hugely flawed system of identifying the best team and excludes our new players who weren't at the club then...but there is a pattern...and its kept me amused and thinking positively
(Sm134)

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
SoopaLeeds (IP Logged)
21 March, 2012 20:40
CX7,

many regulars on this board get sick of me banging this particular drum, but you've gone back to page 1 so I'll have to give it another go.

Leeds Carnegie are younger, weaker and poorer in cash and support than any other premiership club. Our rightful place is hovering between the top 2 divisions on size and status and anything beyond that is over achievement. Anything below that is underachievement.

We cannot ever hope to bridge the gap unless we get as much revenue in as we can, which means we have to try to get back to the Premiership, even if we know it'll be a struggle to stay there. This process keeps us in the public eye for fans and spectators, and gives us a chance that a batch of youngsters or a sugar daddy will propel us to a status of survival in the premiership so we can build from there.

As for the board, GH et al. You need to understand that GH know how to run a rugby club, check the Rhinos record.
GH and PC have tried to put more money into the playing side that they had to spend. They did it twice. Once with Davies at the helm after the Powergen cup - we got relegated. Secondly with Back/Key last season: we got relegated. If it's once bitten twice shy then what does twice bitten do to a board?

The Rhinos do get some benefit to us being around - they get to share stadium overheads - that's logical. What you don't realise is the joint facilites give us a massive headstart over other Championship clubs and without piggy backing on the Rhinos we would never have got the impetus to be where we are at all. It's a two way street.

For those who think the answer is to just give up, move to a village green and play part time rugby because that's easier I say you're even more wrong. Leeds Carnegie are a professional club and should be striving to be the best they can be with the resources available. If the coaches and players don't deliver then that's a matter for debate, but there is no evidence that the board have not run the club properly or indeed not tried their best to succeed.

The persistent whines that GH is just looking after the Rhinos is utter tosh.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
almostatyke (IP Logged)
21 March, 2012 21:26
Soopa,
A drum well re-banged.



I wasn't born in Yorkshire, but I got here as soon as I could

 
CX7
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
CX7 (IP Logged)
22 March, 2012 00:55
Well it is clear I have upset some people and I did not intend to and it is clear my view is different to the opinion of this forum.

Best of luck.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Mark_C (IP Logged)
22 March, 2012 08:29
CX7.

The points you raise are very interesting. Please don't stop posting or feel miffed because some take an opposing view. Your opinions are as valid as anybody else's, and some will chose to argue with you more forcibly than others.

As supporters, we are united in wanting the best for our team. There is lots of conjecture from all sides, Soops indeed presents the facts that he knows, but to be fair I'm sure that there are other factors behind the running of the club that we know nothing about. Possibly the fans forum will be a change to share information.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
merry (IP Logged)
22 March, 2012 11:33
well, it's my understanding from the forum the fans had with gh last summer, that we only pay £300k pa for the stadium and all its running costs (inc staff) and that the rfu funds the academy. so, apart from that £300k, everything else goes into the rugby budget. that everything being the £1m pa from carnegie, plus whatever pennies we get from other sponsorship, gates and sundries others, we're not as skint as some like to think.

course, we'll always say we are; we're a yorkshire club, after all. and a well run one at that.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Freddyshark (IP Logged)
22 March, 2012 11:36
Farmer, I think the point that some of us are making is that as it stands at the moment the club does not have the financial clout to compete or to put together a team with more than an outside chance of getting there....so the point is the stadium that is currently our home is simply inappropriate for the crowds we are able to achieve and probably will achieve going forward.

I think cutting your cloth occording to your means is the operative issue here. Lets face it watching a match with 2k trying to make themselves heard in a stadium that holds 25K is quite sad really, you can almost sense the tumble weed blowing across the concourse as you go in.

I can however see the point of staying put if the club do have real ambition and are going to market the club better, start to invest in the squad and make a determined push at the prem and once there continuing with the investment to become established as a prem team.

Its doesnt appear to be the case that this will happen so maybe better to move to a smaller more affordable stadium, develope it either solely or in partnership with another club at a sustainable pace and have a long term plan to move the club forward at an affordable rate.

Just my view chaps.



Love thy fellow man and be happy

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
merry (IP Logged)
22 March, 2012 11:39
Quote:
merry
well, it's my understanding from the forum the fans had with gh last summer, that we only pay £300k pa for the stadium and all its running costs (inc staff) and that the rfu funds the academy. so, apart from that £300k, everything else goes into the rugby budget. that everything being the £1m pa from carnegie, plus whatever pennies we get from other sponsorship, gates, rfu/prl and sundries others, we're not as skint as some like to think.
course, we'll always say we are; we're a yorkshire club, after all. and a well run one at that.

oops, what happened there...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 22/03/2012 11:40 by merry.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
merry (IP Logged)
22 March, 2012 11:42
ahhh, tried editing my previous post (to insert prl/rfu funds) and quoted myself, instead....

d'oh!

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Freddyshark (IP Logged)
22 March, 2012 12:30
You always did like the sound of your own voice (Sm22)



Love thy fellow man and be happy

 
CX7
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
CX7 (IP Logged)
22 March, 2012 13:08
Mark i do not feel miffed about the comments I received.

The under-laying business strategy in my opinion is flawed in that we hope the club can survive if promoted. But how many times do we need to be promoted and relegated before we realise the business strategy is not working. This years team is probably one of most immature we have had in a decade so what chance have they got in surviving. Yes we will get a big wedge of money but it will be frittered on journey men who will ultimately will not keep us in the premiership. We have had some good teams in the past with some seasoned internationals but we have still have been relegated and usually the coaching team get blown out and we start all over again. This scenario is eroding the fan base and the clubs reputation.



I note we pay £300k for large stadium that we cannot fill. We should try a new modern stadium such as South Leeds it must be cheaper. This is not village green but it suited more to our size of club and is a smart facility. Supports would be in one stand and probably make a lot more noise and have more unity. (PS no geographical bias as I live in N. York's). The saving would probably pay for some new players.



I know I am critical of GH but the impression I get, is that as long as rugby union is played on the pitch at Headingley whether good or bad and does not run at loss its ok. I appreciate my comments are not palatable, but is Carnegie just existing within a budget, who benefits from this situation? It certainly not the union element of the club.



I would love to know what John Bentley would say off record.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Mark_C (IP Logged)
22 March, 2012 14:37
Quote:
The under-laying business strategy in my opinion is flawed in that we hope the club can survive if promoted. But how many times do we need to be promoted and relegated before we realise the business strategy is not working. This years team is probably one of most immature we have had in a decade so what chance have they got in surviving. Yes we will get a big wedge of money but it will be frittered on journey men who will ultimately will not keep us in the premiership. We have had some good teams in the past with some seasoned internationals but we have still have been relegated and usually the coaching team get blown out and we start all over again. This scenario is eroding the fan base and the clubs reputation.
I can't say I personally disagree with the above.

Quote:
I note we pay £300k for large stadium that we cannot fill. We should try a new modern stadium such as South Leeds it must be cheaper. This is not village green but it suited more to our size of club and is a smart facility. Supports would be in one stand and probably make a lot more noise and have more unity. (PS no geographical bias as I live in N. York's). The saving would probably pay for some new players.

It would be interesting to know what the future would hold for us next season if we don't go up. I don't see the point in opening the whole of Headingley up if we are struggling to hit four-figure attendances.

Quote:
I know I am critical of GH but the impression I get, is that as long as rugby union is played on the pitch at Headingley whether good or bad and does not run at loss its ok. I appreciate my comments are not palatable, but is Carnegie just existing within a budget, who benefits from this situation? It certainly not the union element of the club

Without having access to the Leeds Rugby accounts as a whole it is not possible to answer this one. Funding is always a moot point! I think that GH doe sthe best he can for Leeds Rugby, and has had a very difficult job this season.

 
CX7
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
CX7 (IP Logged)
22 March, 2012 17:13

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
almostatyke (IP Logged)
22 March, 2012 19:11
Hi CX7 we have done a thread on this interesting report in the past. I note it does not tackle the RU/RL partnership at Leeds. Soccer is seen as the big enemy and as a centre of Yorkshire sporting excellence Headingley is, in my opinion, the place to host a Yorkshire "franchise". I cetainly believe Mr Hethrington thinks that way.



I wasn't born in Yorkshire, but I got here as soon as I could

 
Dr Zaius
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Dr Zaius (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 04:56
I think people are forgetting just how many millions Paul Caddick has put in to keep the club afloat over the years. The main reason the budget is now so tight is because Caddick is no longer willing to do that and the club has to survive on its own merits. Hetherington only operates within the parameters set by Caddick - and PC has publically stated his disillusion with the whole thing. Perhaps if someone could re-engender Caddick's enthusiasm for the club, he may be willing to turn the tap back on. But, for now, it has to pay its own way. With crowds of 1k and, frankly, dismal "entertainment" on offer that is going to be tricky if not impossible.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Mark_C (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 06:24
I've never heard od Caddick's disillusionment. If that is the case then that is a grave problem for the club. If the leadership is seen to have lost interest, why should anybody else be interested. Perhaps is's time to recruit a new chairman?

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Timofe (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 08:51
Moving to another stadium is never likely to happen. We are not Leeds Carnegie who happen to play at Headingley, we are Leeds Carnegie who are part of Leeds Rugby. To separate from Leeds Rugby would mean having to pay directly for another ground, all the game-day and backroom staff, all the training facilities, etc and would bankrupt us immediately.



Riding the Leeds roller-coaster since 2001

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Mark_C (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 08:52
Rebrand as Rhinos! That'd raise the profile!

 
pas
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
pas (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 09:18
Quote:
Mark_C
Rebrand as Rhinos! That'd raise the profile!

Absolutely correct. Whilst there may not be a huge crossover between rugby and RL supporters the correct thing to do is to brand the teams the same - same colours and kit, same badges, same mascots. Actually leveraging the success of the Rhinos would cause no harm to them and give a boost to the tykes. Rhinos supporters would feel more attached the club and want to see them win instead of seeing it as a separate entity to be dismissed and disparaged.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Freddyshark (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 09:26
It wasnt a cracking success for London Harlequins, but the theory is good if it is done in the right way.



Love thy fellow man and be happy

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Freddyshark (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 09:34
Tim I can see what you are saying but Leeds Carnegie is very much the junior partner at Leeds Rugtby and to say we are part of it with the implication that we are equal partners is to over egg the truth of the situation.

We are a very small part of a set up that is almost entirely Leeds Rhinos. The branding around the club is Rhinos, the shop is 85% Rhinos, in fact the passing sports fan would hardly know that Leeds Carnegie played there, and on top of all that Leeds Carnegie actually loose money which is clearly a source of massive resentment on the board.

If there was a desire to take back an identity for Leeds RU - and I did think the first signs of this was the excellent idea to have a unique colour scheme and kit - it would not be as hard as you think.

However you put it the hard facts are that Leeds Carnegie has no money so to speak of, Leeds Carnegie has too few fans and no substantial major sponsor.... and we have a stadium totally unsuitable and too expensive.

I personally think it is time for change but as always this is totally my view although some on here seem to be drifting in this direction.



Love thy fellow man and be happy

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Mark_C (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 14:06
Jus as a matter of interest, is the figure of £300,000 correct for what Leeds Carnegie pay Leeds Rugby for the hire of Headingley? Is this just moving figures around on paper or an actual cost? If the latter, how much would it cost to hire out South Leeds Stadium for a season if we do not get promoted? Maybe it would do us good to play in a smaller stadium for a while to build up some atmosphere. Who knows, this may even give us the opportunity to address some of our other matchday issues.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Freddyshark (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 14:20
If the relegation bounce pricipal fails to catapult us back into the prem....I wonder what the state of play will be next year when the brave 2k realise that the club is in reality a champ club for the foreseable future.

The average gate may fall to around the 1K mark...at what point do the alarm bells start to sound, especially so with the club debt on the balance sheet and income falling as it surely will.

There will be further pruning to the team and the remaining old heads on decent money will probably be culled...so we will be left with a few promising youngsters and the rosta made up with loans from Sale.

Is this a fair assessment or maybe too bleak ?



Love thy fellow man and be happy

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Newtfish (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 14:42
Facilities charge is more like £400,000 now. Very difficult to say what this would be if we were standalone and I don't know how much is related to academy/training and other shared services (ticketing etc) rather than straight ground rental.

I am sure crowds would fall if we stayed in the Champ for several seasons but they would also fall if we moved away I think. For a lot of people living within a few miles of the stadium (I am one) and with a link to either Headingley or Roundhay it's a social outing as much as a rugby one and whilst the ale in the ground is sh*te there are plenty of options in Headingley itself. I wouldn't be trekking to south Leeds on one or two buses to watch and I rarely drive to games as it's hard enough to watch us when slightly merry, let alone sober.

If at some point the board were to deem that the crowds didn't justify carrying on at Headingley and there was no new backer I suspect the professional side would just fold and we would revert to supporting our amateur clubs.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Timofe (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 16:29
Moot point for me Newty - you may be close, but I live 20 miles away! smiling smiley

Freddy: I wasn't suggesting that we are an equal partner - quite the opposite in fact. To sever ties with Leeds Rugby would mean that we'd have to pay our way for all the no-longer-shared resources. That would close the club immediately.

Better that £3-400k stays within Leeds Rugby than it goes to a third party, surely?



Riding the Leeds roller-coaster since 2001

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Timofe (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 17:05
By the way, those teams that do have a Cecil Duckworth are only 10th in the AP, so money's no guarantee of success.



Riding the Leeds roller-coaster since 2001

 
Dr Zaius
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Dr Zaius (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 18:12
Re the use of the stadium, the Leeds RUFC accounts state that the company paid the Leeds Rhinos £414k for stadium facilities and owed them a loan of £1.6m. These figures for the year ended 30 June 2011.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
almostatyke (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 18:45
Nice to see some facts from the good doctor, not that we normally let facts get in the way of a good argument of course.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Wildwillie (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 18:49
Quote:
almostatyke
Nice to see some facts from the good doctor, not that we normally let facts get in the way of a good argument of course.

I should point out that GH said the loan was from a bank at the pre-season get-together. (Just in case we are interested in facts)



[www.northernpubs.co.uk]

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
SoopaLeeds (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 20:10
Well if we agree on these more precise numbers then the following appears to apply:

crowd money for the season is about what we pay for the stadium. (16 games x £17 x 1500 is £408K vs £414K staduim)
£2.6M from PRL plus £1M Carnegie, less £1.6M debt paid off means our total bills must be £2.0M to break even. That includes ALL staff, administrative, matchday, coaching and playing. merchandising will be barely break even given the amount of stock we don't shift.

Next year without prem rugby we'll have £360K Championship money plus £1M carneige for same bills, but no debt, so a drop from £2.0M to spend to £1.36M, with the loss mostly met by the playing staff.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
SoopaLeeds (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 20:13
30 players sharing £1M would get an average of £33,333 PA salary... puts the problems with our funding into perspective if we don't go up methinks.

I reckon a smaller stadium would still cost £414K to rent/build/run BTW - and would exclude us from premiership eligibility.

 
ellishicks
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
ellishicks (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 20:55
Is it a fact that Leeds Carnegie are only supported now by people with interesting jobs such as accountants and statisticians? Just a thought, but we might get a bigger gate if we could encourage greater diversity in the south stand by getting in some stand up comics, jugglers
hedge fund managers,,,you know the sort of thing people more at ease with a sense of mischief rather than a spreadsheet

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Mark_C (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 21:12
I'm quite happy to diversify and become an amateur gaenacologist......

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
almostatyke (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 21:34
Sorry Ellishicks but I thought I was the wind-up merchant around here?



I wasn't born in Yorkshire, but I got here as soon as I could

 
ellishicks
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
ellishicks (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 21:39
It's hard to be positive when you're listening to the financial report(Sm134)

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
almostatyke (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 21:41
As we have said before, don't make the mistake of letting facts get in the way of a good story!



I wasn't born in Yorkshire, but I got here as soon as I could

 
Bobba
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Bobba (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 21:55
The so called loan has been variously attibuted to Paul Caddick, A bank, and the Rhinos. Who do we actualy owe money too? Or do we owe money?
In the last 10 years on our roller coaster journey in and out of the Premiership a substantial amount of money has been recieved from varing sources. Paul Caddick, the RFU, Sponsorship, Leeds Met Univercity. I do not recal a season when in the Premiership that we have spent anywhere near the salary cap. With normal operating costs added it occurs to me that there is a discrepancy in what we are being told and the reality.
It puzzles me how, without a rich sugar daddy, Rhinos cann sign up world class players on 4 year contracts. Yes, I understand wages in League are probably lower than those in Union, but they are still not cheap. Yes, I know that Rhinos atract better sponsorship and good size crowds to Headingley but this is countered by the lack of funds from their governing body.
Perhaps what I had recently heard is true in that, Rhinos have signed top class players with the moneys which should have been destines to the Union side. pass ing these players off as dual code. I wonder what success Rhinos would have had were it not for Tykes / Carnegie.
Perhaps when the "forum" becomes operational, if it ever does, some answers will be forthcoming. I'm not holding my breath!

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
SoopaLeeds (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 22:04
Bobba,

I can tell you that last year our wage cap was over £4M and the Rhinos cap was £1.65M. Money in League is tiny compared to Union, hence we can't get near our cap but the Rhinos with 4 x our support can buy the best....
However, please check how many academy players do play for the Rhinos and you'll find their world class players are not all big signings.

(Sm154)

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
SoopaLeeds (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 22:08
bean counters rule OK

(Sm134)

 
Bobba
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Bobba (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 22:09
Surely Soops, the income recieved by the Union side should, in the first instance go to building the Union side. Your right that the salary cap last year was over 4 million but or spend was half that.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
SoopaLeeds (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 22:13
The money we get does go to the Union side...

£2.6M in central funding doesn't cover a £4M potential spend cap.... you don't have to be an accountant to work that out.

You ask for all the evidence to be considered in Calum's case, then start assuming that there's some financial conspiracy between us and the Rhinos because you heard it in a bar somewhere. Very Sad.

 
Bobba
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Bobba (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 22:26
£2.6M central funding + £1.1 Leeds Met + other sourses of income. Spend on player, I seem to remember GH mentioning that last year was about £2m
I'm not an accountant but I still have 10 digits and 10 tootsies and with the help of these I can count.
As for sad.I wont dissagree. But sad for a different reason that you imply Soops!

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
SoopaLeeds (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 22:28
Fair enough!

To be fair last season Backy was quoted as saying he had £2.8M to spend and that still wasn't enough.
The income from PRL/MET at £3.6 total less operating costs and all admin/staff overheads (plus a little help from PC) would allow the £2.8M Backy mentioned.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
almostatyke (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 22:32
Soopa your comment about hearing in a bar or something was a tad aggressive methinks?

 
Bobba
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Bobba (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 22:33
Soops, as for the the conspiracy theory. This was from two sources. First was at Headingley, the second was from a neighbour and a Rhinos fan, and a name was mentioned.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Mark_C (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 22:36
You never see him and GH together in the same room.....(Sm100)

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
merry (IP Logged)
23 March, 2012 23:05
aren't rhinos one of the few clubs of either code to generate a healthy profit? reckon they raise more than enough money through their sponsorship/gate/etc to match the superleague cap. any excess goes to leeds rugby/paul caddick. what he chooses to do with it is up to him, since he owns leeds rugby.

if anything, rhinos have given us money over the years, via the profit that is effectively a dividend for caddick and the £10m in donations he's previously given to us.

 
Dr Zaius
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Dr Zaius (IP Logged)
24 March, 2012 07:19
The club's accounts are quite clear - as at the last year end there was no bank loan. There is no conspiracy as the two clubs' finances are kept in separate companies. The Rhinos get about £1.25m a year from their TV deal, crowds of 15,000 say will bring in about £4m and the rest of their £10m or so turnover will be generated from sponsorship, retail and the corporate and hospitality (and ground rental!) business that comes with owning Headingley rugby stadium. And a bit of prize money...

The accounts of the two companies are in stark contrast. One with large net assets, property, turnover, profits and cash. The other heavily loss making, reliant on borrowing, with minimal fixed assets - if it were a stand alone company any financial advisor would probably be reminding the directors of their responsibilities regarding trading whilst technically insolvent. As it is the position is guaranteed by Caddick.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Newtfish (IP Logged)
24 March, 2012 08:22
Quite so. The 2011 accounts show no bank borrowings (in fact there was cash in the bank). The loan funding amounted to £1.6 million owed to Leeds CF&AC. I could never understand at the time of the fans forum why GH kept talking about bank borrowings as none were shown in the previous year's accounts. As the good doctor says, the Union limited company only survives by virtue of PC (through his rugby company) agreeing to stand behind it and, in particular, ensure that there are sufficient funds to pay third party creditors on time.

 
Bobba
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Bobba (IP Logged)
24 March, 2012 14:23
The year to 30-6-11 shows a turnover of £4.984M and a gross profit of £0.730M Also a credit rating of 94. Not bad for for an organisation that is on it's knees!

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Newtfish (IP Logged)
24 March, 2012 14:58
Aye, but the gross profit becomes a £0.75 million pre-tax loss once the indirect costs have been knocked off! Not sure where a credit rating of 94 comes from (unless 100 is very bad not very good) given a balance sheet which is more than £1.7M underwater. As Dr Z said, the company is technically insolvent and only survives because PC has said he will stand behind it.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Mark_C (IP Logged)
24 March, 2012 16:00
Be interesting to see the balance sheets from the rest of the Prem and Championship clubs to put things into perspective.

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
almostatyke (IP Logged)
24 March, 2012 20:16
Could I ask the good doctor if he has applied for the Fans Forum as the facts and analysis supplied above would suggest he is well qualified for the role?



I wasn't born in Yorkshire, but I got here as soon as I could

 
ellishicks
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
ellishicks (IP Logged)
24 March, 2012 21:21
zzzzzzzzz

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
almostatyke (IP Logged)
24 March, 2012 21:37
(Sm22)
Point taken! Need to lighten-up especially on a saturday night when only sad people are......Oh sh*t

 
ellishicks
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
ellishicks (IP Logged)
24 March, 2012 21:46
I was hoping we could get Tiz back to take this thread past 100

 
MESSAGES->author
Re: Ambition and reality, two different things...
Timofe (IP Logged)
25 March, 2012 11:14
A break-even figure of 8,000 was quoted for attendances a few years back, so we are well off solvency at current levels.

That will be hit further if we fail to gain promotion.

I fear that we will be in serious trouble for survival if we fail to be promoted this season. At best we'll be making up the numbers in the Championship and stand a good chance of relegation next season, whichever division we are in. Relegation from the Premiership is no big deal; relegation from the Championship will see a serious refactoring of the club.

Whatever happens, I'll be supporting the team.



Riding the Leeds roller-coaster since 2001

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