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Board Update
Discussion started by WPL (IP Logged), 12 June, 2019 09:33
leeds_shark
WPL
12 June, 2019 09:33
I guess this means the wheels in motion...

Link

Not sure how long the process is likely to take or is it a case of how long is a piece of string...

Is it to be read there is a bit of money, but not the whole amount we needed and not much else has changed. I suspect the bit about presenting to the RFU was when Melville was in town

Johnflinn
NOM
12 June, 2019 09:55
The money will be to pay the administrators fees and associated costs along with a Ďpotí that will be offered to creditors. Usually this is a fraction of what is owed and is a Ďtake it or risk getting nothing if CVA is not agreedí.

How the RFU view it is another matter. A CVA is a clear declaration of financial failure so would normally come with a penalty (points deduction from last season - forcing relegation - or starting next on minus points or relegation down one or more leagues).

The next step will depend on whether creditors accept the terms and then how the RFU see it.

MESSAGES->author
Wildwillie
12 June, 2019 10:11
"A new operational, break even plan for the 2019-20 season has been presented to the RFU with the Yorkshire Carnegie club continuing to stage matches at Emerald Headingley Stadium and the team operating from the Leeds Rugby facilities at Kirkstall."

No mention of a coach or what the team might consist of. If you don't have any staff then it should be quite easy to break even.

MESSAGES->author
opuscoitus
12 June, 2019 10:18
points deduction forcing relegation while not ideal gives a chance to rebuild in a lower league and not fall right down the league pyramid,

from my point of view swap us with Richmond gives us a year or 2 in N1 to strengthen miles better than no relegation in champ and us getting humped every week,

ultimately it is what it is and we have to take the medicine, we clearly dont have the organisation skills for Prem at this current time so forget we are a prem club nonsense and rebuild from a decent level and for gods sake to all involved learn from this i beg you

MESSAGES->author
almostatyke
12 June, 2019 10:29
I though that only administration brought a points deduction? If the creditors agree to the CVA terms then we carry on, or should that be, struggle on, without further penalty IMHO.

Still at lot to do though.

MESSAGES->author
Albert Fishwick
12 June, 2019 10:34
Some earlier posts indicated that a CVA may not result in a points deduction if agreement is made with creditors but I am no expert.

I don't know how we would survive relegation to level three. Without the £550k from the RFU how would we pay the £100k for Headingley, never mind the rest of the running costs?



If I had all the money I've spent on drink ..... I'd spend it on drink.

MESSAGES->author
Wildwillie
12 June, 2019 10:44
Quote:
Albert Fishwick
I don't know how we would survive relegation to level three. Without the £550k from the RFU how would we pay the £100k for Headingley, never mind the rest of the running costs?

We are stuffed.

leeds_shark
WPL
12 June, 2019 10:44
Quote:
Albert Fishwick

I don't know how we would survive relegation to level three. Without the £550k from the RFU how would we pay the £100k for Headingley, never mind the rest of the running costs?

My thoughts exactly

MESSAGES->author
SideStep
12 June, 2019 10:45
The hangman is slowly getting ready...



The first Leeds Tykes child mascot...#leedswasps0203season. #cheersbentos

Feeding
Feeding
12 June, 2019 12:18
As the statement says they propose 'to operate' in the Championship,one can only assume that a CVC(if accepted) does not trigger a points deduction,whilst Administation would result in a deduction?

Wharfedale1985
Wharfedale1985
12 June, 2019 13:03
I don't know how we would survive relegation to level three. Without the £550k from the RFU how would we pay the £100k for Headingley, never mind the rest of the running costs?[/quote]

Given how reliant the club seem to be on the £550k from the RFU paying £100k to rent a stadium is diabolical. Then again with Hetherington in charge of matters I imagine the decision is concrete.

JDH1
JDH1
12 June, 2019 13:40
At least it mentions next season. I take that as a positive.

Billy ba
Billy ba
12 June, 2019 14:13
I reckon £100k to rent a stadium like Headingley and all the training facilities at Kirkstall plus all the extras on match day is a good deal

Wharfedale1985
Wharfedale1985
12 June, 2019 15:36
Quote:
Billy ba
I reckon £100k to rent a stadium like Headingley and all the training facilities at Kirkstall plus all the extras on match day is a good deal

A good deal if you can afford it, as I say given how reliant they seem on the £550k that is ridiculous sum to spend.

Tower
Tower
12 June, 2019 15:47
Quote:
Wharfedale1985
Quote:
Billy ba
I reckon £100k to rent a stadium like Headingley and all the training facilities at Kirkstall plus all the extras on match day is a good deal

A good deal if you can afford it, as I say given how reliant they seem on the £550k that is ridiculous sum to spend.

I totally agree with you Billy ba this is a great deal. I want to support my club at a great venue.


Wharfedale1985 if we carry on where do propose we play?

MESSAGES->author
Albert Fishwick
12 June, 2019 15:48
Maybe so but it's not as if we have a spare ground we could use instead. It's a lot less than it used to be.



If I had all the money I've spent on drink ..... I'd spend it on drink.

MESSAGES->author
almostatyke
12 June, 2019 16:14
Gary Hetherington said at the fans' meeting that if anyone knows a cheaper alternative to the £100k Headingley offer, please let him know.
The £100k includes the training facilities, offices and certain backroom functions. I know other clubs operate on a volunteer basis for many functions (e.g ticket sales on match day) but if we do survive, there is little time to set that up for next season.


The high level facilities might just be enough to tempt loanees and players to join us at short notice, too.


Only if we survive our financial problems of course.

bspa2
bspa2
12 June, 2019 16:14
I suspect that there are more players than we realise who will be glad to play good rugby and develop their careers at the same time. I would be surprised if there haven't been a lot of conversations already.

At least the CVA offers continuity.

knightandday
knightandday
12 June, 2019 16:23
100k is a bargain price to pay to run a club at this level. Castle park probably costs twice as much. The difference is that any monies taken goes to DRFC where as monies taken at Headingley probably goes to Rhinos.

Good luck for the future (except when you play us)

Feeding
Feeding
12 June, 2019 16:56
If Wharfedale go bust,clearly they will expect to play and train at Skipton,free of charge.

Dr Zaius
Dr Zaius
12 June, 2019 20:54
Quote:
Billy ba
I reckon £100k to rent a stadium like Headingley and all the training facilities at Kirkstall plus all the extras on match day is a good deal
It's not a good deal, it's an amazing deal. The cost of the club directly paying stewards, ticket office staff and shop staff alone would gobble up most of it, never mind getting the best stadium in the league to play at plus training facilities and executive time.

MESSAGES->author
leemingtyke
12 June, 2019 21:35
100k is an amazing deal to play in that magnificent stadium, I believe its only gone down to that amount recently and in light of our current plight though?

Didn't it used to be 400k?

JDH1
JDH1
12 June, 2019 22:15
Yes and yes. GH confirmed this at the meeting. It is a brilliant deal and as said players will want to train and play at HC.

MESSAGES->author
almostatyke
13 June, 2019 08:39
Quote:
leemingtyke
100k is an amazing deal to play in that magnificent stadium, I believe its only gone down to that amount recently and in light of our current plight though?
Didn't it used to be 400k?


I think that represents something like the full cost, but I believe it has always been discounted. Last season we paid £150k.

Wharfedale1985
Wharfedale1985
13 June, 2019 09:15
Im not denying it's a brilliant deal but if as I have already said we are massively reliant on this £550k from the RFU taking £100k to pay for Headingley is in my opinion financially daft.

As for what is the alternative? There is always an alternative where there is a will there is a way and all that. For example WPL have great facilities with multiple pitches, could something not be worked out with them?

The current board has led us to this position so any further decisions by them do not fill me with much hope and keeping the club anchored to Headingley paying £100k as a part time entity with next to no money leaves me in wonder.

Hopefully a cat is pulled out of the bag.

Tyko
Tyko
13 June, 2019 09:37
I understand there is a restriction on professional rugby being played at West Park.

Feeding
Feeding
13 June, 2019 09:56
Professional or indeed semi professional sport is not permitted at Bramhope,end of.

Incidentally,even if they could,why would WPL want to allow YC to use their facilities? No doubt Wharfedale believes they should be able to use them free of charge!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13/06/2019 10:23 by Feeding.

Wharfedale1985
Wharfedale1985
13 June, 2019 11:10
Free of charge?Not at all...

Interesting that no semi pro or pro sport can be played there, was it in the terms of any funding given to them?

MESSAGES->author
Albert Fishwick
13 June, 2019 12:56
Yes. It is set up as a Community Amateur Sports Club (CASC). As I understand it, investing the proceeds of sale of Chandos Park into such an entity gave some relief from the tax which would otherwise have been payable.

In any case, as Mr Feeding says, why would West Park want to shoehorn another club into what is already a busy facility?



If I had all the money I've spent on drink ..... I'd spend it on drink.

Tower
Tower
13 June, 2019 15:58
Quote:
leemingtyke
100k is an amazing deal to play in that magnificent stadium, I believe its only gone down to that amount recently and in light of our current plight though?
Didn't it used to be 400k?

The figure of 400k was totally misquoted in the press. Did we ever pay such amount? If so when?

As that 400k was disputed at the meeting.

Not sure I want to go to WPL. Don't forget that sum includes the physio team as well. You are never going to find better value or a better deal.

Please do some leg work and share proper information rather than woolly statements and let us all know if you have an alternative.

Feeding
Feeding
13 June, 2019 16:13
What a wise and intelligent man you are Mr Fishwick.CASC gives amateur sports clubs savings on their VAT payments.

If all else fails,I'll buy you a beer at our (Leos) first ever game in Yorks 1 on 7 Sept when we entertain Bridlington.Your George Watkins was our backs coach last season and helped us secure promotion.

MESSAGES->author
Albert Fishwick
13 June, 2019 16:39
Quote:
Tower
Quote:
leemingtyke
100k is an amazing deal to play in that magnificent stadium, I believe its only gone down to that amount recently and in light of our current plight though?
Didn't it used to be 400k?



The figure of 400k was totally misquoted in the press. Did we ever pay such amount? If so when?

As that 400k was disputed at the meeting.

Not sure I want to go to WPL. Don't forget that sum includes the physio team as well. You are never going to find better value or a better deal.

Please do some leg work and share proper information rather than woolly statements and let us all know if you have an alternative.

From the published accounts for the year ended 30 June 2013:

"Leeds Cricket, Football and Athletic Company Limited ... provide stadium facilities to the company. The transactions in the period amounted to £413,463 (2012 £435,000)."

While ever the Carnegie million was being paid and we were part of the Caddick group I guess it was easier to set a figure at this level. Since Yorkshire Tykes Limited took over the picture is much less clear as small company exemptions don't require full accounts to be filed with Companies House but there has obviously been a substantial reduction.



If I had all the money I've spent on drink ..... I'd spend it on drink.

MESSAGES->author
almostatyke
13 June, 2019 17:10
Quote:
almostatyke
Quote:
leemingtyke
100k is an amazing deal to play in that magnificent stadium, I believe its only gone down to that amount recently and in light of our current plight though?
Didn't it used to be 400k?


I think that represents something like the full cost, but I believe it has always been discounted. Last season we paid £150k.


Dave Dockray quoted these numbers at the fans' meeting IIRC.

MESSAGES->author
leemingtyke
13 June, 2019 17:19
Quote:
Tower
Quote:
leemingtyke
100k is an amazing deal to play in that magnificent stadium, I believe its only gone down to that amount recently and in light of our current plight though?
Didn't it used to be 400k?

The figure of 400k was totally misquoted in the press. Did we ever pay such amount? If so when?

As that 400k was disputed at the meeting.

Not sure I want to go to WPL. Don't forget that sum includes the physio team as well. You are never going to find better value or a better deal.

Please do some leg work and share proper information rather than woolly statements and let us all know if you have an alternative.

Think you might need to read my post again Tower.

I'm in favour of staying at Headingley.

The 400k was something I had read and if you bother to read the post properly you'll notice the use of question marks meaning that I was asking if anyone knew if that information was correct. The only statement I made is that 100k is an amazing deal.

Wharfedale1985
Wharfedale1985
14 June, 2019 11:30
The only time the place is busy is on a Sunday, the mens section struggle to get two teams out these days.

Im speaking hypothetically by the way using WPL as an example.

Grybz
Grybz
15 June, 2019 07:17
Just wondering if anyone has any idea who the creditors are that are owed money? Iím assuming some of them are the remaining contracted players, but given the recent news on players who have now moved on I canít believe there are many left. My understanding from previous statements was that although there was no new money coming in the club didnít have debts to speak of.

On a side issue am I alone in questioning how much the firm that were supposed to be looking for new investment must have cost to employ? Presumably they werenít offering their services for free, but given their apparent lack of success I hope there was some sort of ďno win no feeĒ agreement, but I suspect not.

Feeding
Feeding
15 June, 2019 07:25
I thought the total debt by the end of last season was around £4.5 mill ? I could be wrong.

I assume this is mainly owed to one or two directors/shareholders? If that is essentially written off,then we start with no debt,albeit equally,with few assetts and little income.

MESSAGES->author
Albert Fishwick
15 June, 2019 10:55
The last available accounts at 30 June 2017 showed creditors of £283,000, including £93,000 owed for payroll taxes and VAT. Any settlement which doesn't pay the taxman in full is unlikely to fly.

The balance sheet was in deficit by £54,000. This was only achieved by treating £2.73 million of shareholder loans as equity, on the basis that the loan providers had undertaken not to request repayment. Sufficient comfort was apparently provided to convince the auditors that this treatment was appropriate.

From what we have heard you can only assume that the position has worsened substantially since then.



If I had all the money I've spent on drink ..... I'd spend it on drink.

Tassigny74
Tassigny74
15 June, 2019 15:17
If the current club was bankrupt would it automatically mean that any new entity ( such as a fans owned club )
Would have to start at the very bottom of the league structure. Even if it was up and running almost immediately?

Grybz
Grybz
15 June, 2019 15:29
Thanks for the number crunching Albert.

From what I could gather if a club goes into administration it has to drop to the bottom of the league structure, the example given was Richmond who had to drop ten divisions. London Welsh seemed to be different as they had a split between the professional club and the amateur club. If a CVA is agreed the club could still be docked points at the start of the next season, although there may be a mechanism for applying it to last seasons table which could mean Richmond staying up and us dropping down. I think the options were mentioned on the will greenwood podcast a week or so ago, so canít be 100% sure as I was listening to it on the train!

MESSAGES->author
Albert Fishwick
15 June, 2019 15:48
It all seems rather murky. In a liquidation the company ceases to exist and then I think you do have to start again at the bottom. Administration is different, or can be; Plymouth received a big points deduction, from memory, but didn't have to go down the long snake.



If I had all the money I've spent on drink ..... I'd spend it on drink.

tightprop
tightprop
15 June, 2019 20:17
Plymouth were relegated to National League One at the end of 2014-2015 season after coming bottom of the Championship table. Funds were also short that season and they only avoided administration by an injection of cash from investors.

According to a BBC report, Plymouth RFC were deducted 30 points as a result of running out of funds and going into administration in April 2016. Administration meant that Plymouth finished the 2015-2016 season in 7th place in National League One with 72 points which was enough to prevent them going down into the division below. They have stayed in National League One ever since.

Two former Plymouth players took over the assets of the club after Administration. BBC report of 2016 here:

[www.bbc.co.uk]

Hopefully Yorkshire Carnegie will survive. In what form we shall have to wait ans see.

MESSAGES->author
almostatyke
15 June, 2019 20:37
Thanx tp.

leeds_shark
WPL
19 June, 2019 15:33
Link to skysports

I'm not linking this because of the play off - will not impact us, but more the last paragraph which may give an insight into the RFU thoughts or not actually tell us anything we couldn't already guess

Camquin
Camquin
19 June, 2019 23:58
If a phoenix club takes over there is a points deduction which may cause one relegation, but you keep the place.

The professional companies running Richmond and London Scottish teams merged with London Irish. So their amateur teams which had been in merit tables had to apply to join the pyramid. When London Welsh finally imploded, London Welsh Amateurs renamed themselves London Welsh and retained their position.

Any insolvency event triggers the points deduction, unless the debts are repaid or an agreement reached within 6 weeks. I think all the suppliers have to agree, not just the 75% needed for the CVA to pass.

There is a broad definition of what constitutes an insolvency event - not just administration. Appointing an insolvency practitioner to arrange a CVA would certainly count. But so does failure to pay players. So it depends on how lenient the RFU is feeling.

From today's statement RFU certainly sees the benefit of a strong club in Yorkshire. And the blazers remember playing Headingley but never played Doncaster.

But we know even if the CVA is agreed in the next few weeks, that would be the start of the problems.

Lets hope we can keep some form of club going.

MESSAGES->author
Wildwillie
20 June, 2019 07:31
Quote:
Camquin
....But we know even if the CVA is agreed in the next few weeks, that would be the start of the problems. ..

Exactly.

TykeGeorge
TykeGeorge
20 June, 2019 20:35
The last board statement was the 12th June - most teams are now into the second week of pre-season. Patience is wearing thin now, feeling so let down.

Camquin
Camquin
21 June, 2019 00:23
CVA process takes on average 6-8 weeks.

It is usually 3-4 weeks to complete the proposal
Then three weeks notice for the creditor's meeting
Then a week to tidy up.

At least according to the FAQ on the web site of the Insolvency Practitioner.

MESSAGES->author
opuscoitus
21 June, 2019 17:53
According to a email flyer I've been sent advertising Sundays rugby paper the championship fixtures are in, guess we will have been added but maybe Richmond waiting in wings?

MESSAGES->author
almostatyke
21 June, 2019 21:37
Interesting times. TBH if it was not for that great survivor, Gary Hetherington, we would be dead in the water already.
Still not sure that even Gary's cunning plan will work.
Cannot see the logic of "Richmond waiting in the wings" though. That would just mean the next division down playing one team short.

MESSAGES->author
opuscoitus
21 June, 2019 21:46
If the plan of no relegation from championship this coming season and the RFU carry out the 13 team prem idea, if we fold and are not replaced then a 10 team championship and they would have to promote 2 from N1 anyway,

Camquin
Camquin
22 June, 2019 11:08
If a side pulls out before June 1st the RFU sorts out the leagues all the way down.
But after that, leagues are fixed and just their league goes ahead one short. Which is what has happened in SW premier with Birmingham pulling out.

But if a Premiership or Championship side goes into liquidation before August 1st, then an extra side moves up and Nat 1 goes ahead one short.

Grybz
Grybz
22 June, 2019 21:17
Just clearing out some old emails and saw that I had paid for my season ticket on 10th June last year, which was quite organised for me. This year I donít even know if there will be anything to watch at Headingley. And to think last year some posters were worried that the squad was too small and were worried about the pre-season. Now, I would settle for any squad and just making it to the start of the season.

Anyone else hearing the large lady doing her vocal warm ups?

MESSAGES->author
Wildwillie
22 June, 2019 22:41
Quote:
Grybz
Anyone else hearing the large lady doing her vocal warm ups?
Er me .

MESSAGES->author
leemingtyke
23 June, 2019 12:04
Everybody I think Grybz.

And she's well past the warm ups.


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