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Is Jugs just too gangly?
Discussion started by ka ora ka mate , 22 February, 2012 10:32
Is Jugs just too gangly?
ka ora ka mate 22 February, 2012 10:32
It's been suggested to me by one-who-knows that Jug's problem with drop goals and kicking away under pressure is cos his legs and arms are just too long

Makes sense to me, and not something we can easily change



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Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
Yorkie 22 February, 2012 10:52
Could this be 36's problem too then?

Although only being able to kick with one foot doesn't help!!



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Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
tbtb 22 February, 2012 11:00
I don't think this is right, he is just not a great kicker out of hand. Off the floor he is pretty good when not being messed around.

Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
flocking sheep 22 February, 2012 11:15
Off the floor when not being messed around would not be affected by the length of his legs, would it?



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Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
Johns 22 February, 2012 11:18
Quote:
Yorkie
Could this be 36's problem too then?
Although only being able to kick with one foot doesn't help!!

Oh Yorkie, how could you say such a thing? (Sm9)(Sm73)

Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
tbtb 22 February, 2012 11:20
Well I don't know that his kicking out of hand would be either.

He is roughly the same height as Priestland, Sexton and Farrell for example, who wouldn't be said to have a problem being too tall.

I think Toby's running action of something like a daddy long legs on ice makes him perhaps seem more tall and awkward than he is.

Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
ChrisC 22 February, 2012 11:31
It's not just overall height though is it?

You'd need to know his inside leg measurement. Now where's that nice Mr Humphries when you need him.

Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
Tigergeezer 22 February, 2012 11:55
Get Keeley and Jennifer to measure his inside leg when they're not working on the breakdown.

In fact, tell him that they'll only measure his inside leg if he can get his kicking percentage up beyond 80%.

Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
ChrisC 22 February, 2012 12:05
Now THAT'S what I call an incentive package!!

Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
tbtb 22 February, 2012 12:34
Jennifer Aniston must be about 50 by now. You are sounding a bit like Bill W!

Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
Tiggs 22 February, 2012 12:38
Mature women appeal to men of a certain age, so I hear.
I think Johns, and ChrisC are probably "near" such an age ?



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Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
Roger 22 February, 2012 12:54
Quote:
tbtb
Jennifer Aniston must be about 50 by now. You are sounding a bit like Bill W!

There's good 50 and bad 50.

Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
Rich W 22 February, 2012 13:04
Isn't it a length of levers thing? Stimmo was a damn fine goal-kicker but his ocasional efforts at a drop-goal were uniformly awful, as was (like Billy) his kicking out of hand when under presure. It just takes too long to get the lever of your leg back and to swing it through the ball if you're 6 ft something or just long limbed. Whereas with place kicking you've got all the time you need to time your approach and swing through the ball. It's a little bit like how tall batsmen tend to fare less well against short pitched fast bowling because it's harder to transfer the weight, clear the arms and swing through the ball as it hurries on to you.

In Toby's case he's a pretty good goal-kicker who is having some specific problems with technique and confidence after having (for one reason or another) his technique changed 18 months ago. This is different from the fact that he just isn't very good at drop-goals and to an extent kicking from hand under pressure - which probably come down to the fact that he's quite long limbed. Imo it's using him as the main kicker in defensive situations that is the problem - the relatively simple solution is to use an alternative relieving kicker when in our own quarter The obvious, current, option is Geordan but might be Bowden or Ford in future. Leaving Tobes to work on the strategic kicking to control the game - which imo needs work.

That he doesn't swing through the ball and has no follow through in his goalkicking looks a much more important problem to me. As a long levered kicker he looks to be trying to use the short, stabbing technique of a much shorter man which he seems physiologically ill-suited to. I don't honestly think this method will ever work for him and it has certainly had a negative effect on range and accuracy with an inevitable knock on confidence.



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Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
ChrisC 22 February, 2012 13:12
I also wonder Rich if it's anything to do with that nasty groin injury he got, probably due to Aldred messing about with Toby's technique.

The mind/body can be reluctant to extend the the leg with the resultant pressure on the groin area whereas the shorter stabbing technique that you describe doesn't exert the same forces.

Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
Roger 22 February, 2012 13:14
Pressure on the groin area. Nicely swung back towards Jennifer again.

Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
ChrisC 22 February, 2012 13:19
(Sm101)

Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
Rich W 22 February, 2012 13:34
Well it was a groin injury that he reportedly had in Autumn 2010.



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Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
Stopsy 22 February, 2012 18:39
Although length of levers will have an impact it will be speed of muscle that makes the difference, that Usain Bolt fellow has long legs but seems to make them go round somewhat quickly.

Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
Rich W 22 February, 2012 19:32
But he is (comparably speaking) a slow starter while he gets his long levers unwound.

I'd also argue kicking is less about fast twitch fibres in the muscles because it's less explosive than sprinting.



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Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
grannyg 22 February, 2012 20:21
Driver is rarely as accurate as a PW.

Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
Stopsy 22 February, 2012 20:25
A reference to golf bats?

Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
Rich W 22 February, 2012 20:34
Quote:
grannyg
Driver is rarely as accurate as a PW.

You obviously haven't seen me play!

But the serious answer is that a driver is more accurate over longer distance perhaps?



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Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
Tiggs 22 February, 2012 20:35
Hardly comparable, as with a driver you are trying to hit the ball as hard as reasonably possibly, but with a pitching wedge you are deliberately trying to be as accurate as possible.
Also from less than 90 yards you will be more more accurate than from 300 yards. But measure the accuracy as a percentage of the distance travelled and the two come a lot closer together.



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Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
grannyg 22 February, 2012 20:45
Tiggs do you mind me asking what your handicap is ?

Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
Stopsy 22 February, 2012 20:54
Us lot

Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
Rich W 22 February, 2012 20:57
His golf!



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Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
Tiggs 22 February, 2012 21:34
I used to play off single figures, and for a club team, but that was when I played two 18 hole rounds every day, and before I had a family. I now play no more than once a year for fun, and struggle to beat 18 !!



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Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
TonyMay 22 February, 2012 21:48
last minute drop goals (both attacking and defending) must be something that is practiced in training, as although they don't come up that often, they will get you the points/through to the next round.

The attempt was a bit of a shambles until Murphy took control.

If Flood doesn't want to be the kicker for these, get someone else to be the main drop goal kicker in these circumstances (Murphy, or Allen).

It's also not a bad idea having two back in the pocket for the drop as then the defence can't set upon one kicker to charge.

The pass from the scrum-half also needs to be good. Nice and quick and into the hands of the kicker.

All that is pretty critical and more important than the length of the 10's legs.

Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
Rich W 22 February, 2012 21:56
Agreed but the point about lever length was about Tobes aptitude in particular.



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Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
hww27 22 February, 2012 22:11
Oh leave him alone. If its not his ears its his legs... can the poor lad not do anything right?!



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Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
Yorkie 22 February, 2012 22:27
If he did we wouldn't give him credit for it!!! (Sm6)



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Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
ka ora ka mate 23 February, 2012 09:21
It's also not a bad idea having two back in the pocket for the drop as then the defence can't set upon one kicker to charge.

Not sure I agree. OK as an occasional ploy, but you need numbers to hold their defence back and, more importantly, to pursue the objective of a try ... they should not believe the ONLY plan is a drop goal



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Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
andrew pickard 23 February, 2012 11:29
If the opposition are convinced you're going for a drop goal it can leave a huge whole for your scrum half to go through, e.g. Dupuy against Bath.

Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
Duncan Keene 23 February, 2012 12:28
Grindal almost got through going for the 'dupoy' trick on Sunday too.

Re: Is Jugs just too gangly?
Roger 23 February, 2012 13:33
And in all honesty, although Grindall had as good a game as I've ever seen him play for us, in the build up to the drop goal he gave Toby an awful pass, outside his body line, that had Toby scrambling to retain possession. Fantastic that Geordan stepped up to take charge but Toby had already had one bad experience when he must have expected to take 'his' shot.


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