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Oh, the Irony!
Yorkie (IP Logged)
10 August, 2017 11:52
Sarries complaining about wage inflation when they are one of the main drivers of it!

Don't buy the rag so first I've seen of this.

Welcome to our world. Build a squad with some good youngsters who you develop into invitational players. Then the double whammy hits you. Players missing during invitational windows and increased wage demands to match other invitational stars when their contract needs renewing.

Wonder if, as Sarries drop back off their current peak when their current squad ages/breaks up, they manage to maintain a long series of top 4 Prem finishes?



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Re: Oh, the Irony!
Rich W (IP Logged)
10 August, 2017 13:35
(Sm22)

You genuinely couldn't make it up!



...

 
Re: Oh, the Irony!
PrestonTiger (IP Logged)
10 August, 2017 18:16
What a bunch of hypocritical tho$$ers

 
Re: Oh, the Irony!
Stopsy (IP Logged)
10 August, 2017 18:25
Not hypocritical, just dogs in the manger, they want what's best for Saracens at any point of time

 
Re: Oh, the Irony!
10 August, 2017 18:33
Quote:
Stopsy
Not hypocritical, just dogs in the manger, they want what's best for Saracens at any point of time

Short term, selfish thinking that comes back to bite the dog in the biim and burns the manger, straw and stable to a crisp

Absolutely hypocritical!



This pantomime; just put it .. behind you!

 
Re: Oh, the Irony!
Sara'sman (IP Logged)
11 August, 2017 12:42
Genuine question. What is it that you're all so het up about? Coach makes (blindingly obvious) statement that he fears his (super)star players may be difficult to retain as other clubs may be in a position to offer higher salaries. Surely all coaches (ask Newcastle!) fear this. We're no different.

Stopsy - I am sad to read your comment. You're one of the most balanced contributors across these boards. How do we differ in the spiteful self interested stakes? Self interested at times like all clubs I'd agree, but I can also see examples such as player release, community support where we're at least as good as any at putting others first.

Yorkie - do you think it has been good for rugby that Tigers were so dominant for so long? To what extent was this done on the back of poaching other clubs' rising stars to add to your own Islanders?

Edit to correct spelling!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/08/2017 12:55 by Sara'sman.

 
Re: Oh, the Irony!
Rich W (IP Logged)
11 August, 2017 13:48
Quote:
Coach makes (blindingly obvious) statement that he fears his (super)star players may be difficult to retain as other clubs may be in a position to offer higher salaries

I'm going out on a limb here but I think it's the idea that this has only now occurred to those at Sarries while other clubs (not just us by any means) have had to stretch themselves to be able to compete in a labour market horribly skewed by the financial muscle of three clubs who have been able to offer packages (over and beyond salary) and with whom they cannot compete.

I reckon...



...

 
Re: Oh, the Irony!
IDLETIMES (IP Logged)
11 August, 2017 14:11
Agree with what you say Rich but, to be fair, Sarries are a different club since Griffiths left and with the cure all new wage cap we are all now on an equal footing!.

 
Re: Oh, the Irony!
Sara'sman (IP Logged)
11 August, 2017 14:12
Thanks Rich, though I doubt that it has "only just occurred". I also don't believe that the size of the cap is the issue. Even if it was still at 5 million, we'd struggle to retain all our stars, as Yorkie alluded in the opening post. The increase (voted for by Tigers et al) was to compete against the French and Irish, and is irrelevant to Sarries ability to retain our stars against other Premiership clubs offers.

I also think it very rich to bleat about the financial muscle of others when for years your own club was the beneficiary of by far the greatest income and hence ability to offer fringe benefits. You genuinely couldn't make it up.

On a more conciliatory note, I share the concerns of many rugby fans at the direction the game is taking. I just loathe what I see as incorrect and hypocritical statements made by fans to attack Sarries.

 
Re: Oh, the Irony!
IDLETIMES (IP Logged)
11 August, 2017 14:24
But, Sara'sman at the time, it was all done by what we generated through the gate and fans buying shares. Like you I don't like the way the game seems to be going in many ways but, at the moment we seem to be, just about, holding the line and, for the time being, it is a case of if we can reach the standards set by yourselves and Exeter

 
Re: Oh, the Irony!
Sara'sman (IP Logged)
11 August, 2017 14:41
Again, thanks for your reply IDLE. My disagreement with the "gate receipts" argument is that it simply preserves the status quo. We wouldn't exist as a professional club on our dog poo council pitch, nor would Newcastle, Worcester, Irish, ... You would dominate ad infinitum and become bored at beating Saints, Bath and Glaws. I share concern over the degree of investment by Wray amongst others but without it the league would be even more unbalanced, if it existed at all.

And yes, I think one of the dangers for English Rugby is when/(if!) our investment in infrastructure, culture and building a fan base in England's largest city starts to pay a financial dividend. Long term of course!

 
Re: Oh, the Irony!
Yorkie (IP Logged)
11 August, 2017 15:58
Quote:
Sara'sman
Yorkie - do you think it has been good for rugby that Tigers were so dominant for so long? To what extent was this done on the back of poaching other clubs' rising stars to add to your own Islanders?

I believe that you should perhaps read my OP again.

I stand by my thread title and opening line. Sarries, along with Bath, have driven up wage inflation in the Prem during the last few years in an effort to dominate. Sarries have succeeded (as its not just down to cash) whereas Bath haven't.

Many tigers supporters were all too aware when we had the best squad that we needed other teams to play on a regular basis which is why we supported, and complied with, the salary cap in an effort to smooth out things. Back then, as now, wasn't all about money.

I note you do not respond to my question about how Sarries will cope as they now lose a few key players as the noose means they can no longer afford them all plus how they will cope with the influence of the invitational circus. As I said, welcome to our world!



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Re: Oh, the Irony!
Rich W (IP Logged)
11 August, 2017 16:00
I accept that it has perhaps not just occurred but it has certainly only just been publicly voiced...

I also don't believe that the size of the cap is the issue - I don't even believe that the opacity of the cap is the issue.

I wasn't aware that I was bleating about anything and I acknowledge that my club has had certain advantages in the early years of professionalism - but then I'd argue that many of the those were hard earned by long term foresight and shrewd planning - 'earned' being the critical point here - where others have been gifted their position through the undeniable generosity of wealthy benefactors.

Where you see 'the "gate receipts" argument as simply a recipe for the status quo I see it as an incentive to do as Leicester have done - which though it may have resulted in a slow rate of change would have at least ensured a stable market in which clubs would have had to develop long term strategies in order to grow to compete

Moreover I do wonder how it is that you can refer to the advantages of being in England's largest city when our pre-eminence derives from being in a much smaller city. Had Sarries - or Quins, LI, Wasps (ha!) or any other club simply built the way Leicester did to exploit their location I doubt anyone would have even raised an eyebrow at the financial advantages that eventually brought.

Still I will reiterate a thought I have mentioned before: if the day comes when Leicester Football Club is taken over in it's entirety by a wealthy 'benefactor' (rather than the peculiar half-way-house arrangement we have at present) the rest of the Premiership had better be worried because the capacity for revenue generation and disproportionate financial muscle is frightening.



...

 
Re: Oh, the Irony!
Sara'sman (IP Logged)
11 August, 2017 16:38
Thanks guys. One of your points that I keep hearing but genuinely don't understand is they we and Bath are responsible for driving up wage inflation. On our own? With 14 voting? Didn't you agree in order to compete with the French? And wasn't Barn well pushing for increases?

I think Sarries will cope well over the next few years. I believe we have created a happy, positive, inclusive culture that is very attractive to players. See Calum Clarke's (yes I know, sorry!) tweets on our training sessions for example. But success should ebb and flow, and for rugby's sake I hope we never match your top 4 record. For mine, I hope we do! Either way, along with many other Sarries fans, in my dotage I'll be able to look back with a smile and say "do you remember when ...". I think many of us understood and respected the way Tigers coped with the internationals. I do believe the quantity and intensity has grown since your heyday however. And it is no longer your world! (And did you really comply with the cap - plenty of rumours over the years).

As for reading your OP Yorkie I note you didn't answer my direct question. Oh, the Irony!

Rich, again thanks. I believe that land costs and availability have hampered London clubs establishing a viable business but also that the potential (sadly especially corporate) is unmatched if initial hurdles are overcome.

Looking forward to my Christmas trip. Probably best if I buy you a pint and mince pie if we're to continue.

 
Re: Oh, the Irony!
Yorkie (IP Logged)
11 August, 2017 17:00
Quote:
Sara'sman
Thanks guys. One of your points that I keep hearing but genuinely don't understand is they we and Bath are responsible for driving up wage inflation. On our own? With 14 voting? Didn't you agree in order to compete with the French? And wasn't Barn well pushing for increases?


No-one knows who voted how as PRL are such a secretive organisation who don't publish minutes of any of their meetings. But, Tigers do have a record of voting as they believe is correct rather than just following the pack. How do you know Tigers voted for the increased salary cap? (BTW, I don't know either way.) I know we did vote against the 2nd big tent player (pushed through by Bath's owner) and for many years voted against the Pay Offs. And Tigers were again out voted when it came to taking the Cap breaches further.


Quote:
Sara'sman
I do believe the quantity and intensity has grown since your heyday however. And it is no longer your world! (And did you really comply with the cap - plenty of rumours over the years).

Agreed. And agreed again but it is just a figure of speech meaning that Sarries are now having to cope with what Tigers experienced for many years. And I believe that we did stay within the cap as our accounts are there for anyone to see and we have no mechanism as a shareholder owned club to pay people via outside sources. But, again, who knows for certain?



Quote:
Sara'sman
As for reading your OP Yorkie I note you didn't answer my direct question. Oh, the Irony!

Nope. No irony.

To be fair to Tigers, we haven't tended to "poach" top players from other clubs like Sarries did with, say, Ashton and his replacement Williams. Tigers tend to recruit players with potential and then develop/improve them. Dom Barrow or Kitchener for example. Plenty of home grown too like Dan Cole, Tom Croft and the Youngs Brothers. Yes, we brought in big International names over the years but they've tended to be at the end of their careers or just not quite a regular pick for their country. Pat Howard was a Tigers great in the end by not so great when he first joined us!

Tigers were on top for so long due to our club ethos and an exceptional group of players, the former meaning we're still on the fringes of the big spenders. Tigers have to balance the books don't forget. And, yes, at the time, I believe Tigers being so dominant was good for the game as it gave others a target to aspire to. Others have certainly caught us up and the last couple of years has seen the Prem being a very close competition. I don't believe another team will dominate for as long as Tigers did but Sarries are making a good start at replicating it.

Answered?



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Re: Oh, the Irony!
Stopsy (IP Logged)
11 August, 2017 17:23
Sarasman- all that was missing from my post was "as do we all". Tigers were happy with the things that suited us and will just as happily criticise others when whatever it is favours them

 
Re: Oh, the Irony!
Sara'sman (IP Logged)
11 August, 2017 17:29
Yes Yorkie, answered at last thank you.

But let me debunk some of your bullshit. For your Ashton and Williams I'll profer Flood and Burns. We shouldn't go

As a proud Yorkshireman I probably know more about Dom Barrow than you having spotted his obvious potential at Carnegie, seen him grow and followed his progress at Newcastle. Sadly Leicester have added nothing, failing even to balance his "edge". And as for Kitchener you're delusional, you've ruined him. I'll never forget his wonderful performance for the Saxons (England A at the time?) when he was full of sublime skills at Worcester. By trying to turn him into a typical Tigers grunt you've destroyed his great open play skills; he's a shadow of the player he should be.

And that must be my final contribution for a while. I've invaded your board too much already.

 
Re: Oh, the Irony!
Yorkie (IP Logged)
11 August, 2017 19:01
Quote:
Sara'sman
Yes Yorkie, answered at last thank you.
But let me debunk some of your bullshit. For your Ashton and Williams I'll profer Flood and Burns. We shouldn't go

As a proud Yorkshireman I probably know more about Dom Barrow than you having spotted his obvious potential at Carnegie, seen him grow and followed his progress at Newcastle. Sadly Leicester have added nothing, failing even to balance his "edge". And as for Kitchener you're delusional, you've ruined him. I'll never forget his wonderful performance for the Saxons (England A at the time?) when he was full of sublime skills at Worcester. By trying to turn him into a typical Tigers grunt you've destroyed his great open play skills; he's a shadow of the player he should be.

And that must be my final contribution for a while. I've invaded your board too much already.

And there died reasonable debate. Shame.



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Re: Oh, the Irony!
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
11 August, 2017 19:46
Just my two pence, i do think it was perfectly logical for sanderson to complain about how we would keep all our players with wages continuing to go up but i do think we will keep all of our lions players, what will most likely happen is we will have an even greater reliance on the academy and not necessarily pay for top players like Schalk Burger and Skelton, that's not necessarily a bad thing and the management has been very forward thinking with this by bringing some of our academy boys like Isiekwe who is an amazing talent, Ben Earl, Jack Nay and they all play in the same position as players like Burger and Skelton.

As for Yorkie saying sarries tend to poach players from other top clubs and tigers tend to develop players, that is funny, go back and look at the record in the last 5-6 years of the sarries academy and team and Tigers and tell me which of the two teams is bringing players from the academy and which team is buying players. Alex Shaw a youth journalist who writes for Rugby world released a study about a month ago about academy players in the premiership and we have the most academy graduates playing in the entire league and our squad has more players from our academy than any other team in the country, i guess having the most academy graduates in your squad qualifies as poaching players from other teams, this from the team that probably would not have 6 academy graduates in your starting XV this season, those in glass houses should not throw stones

 
Re: Oh, the Irony!
IDLETIMES (IP Logged)
12 August, 2017 13:03
This whole thing goes back to the supposed 'cap' investigation. I think we all accept it was a complete shambles, if indeed, anything happened at all, I am not sure it did.
Now, we are where we are, the Sarries academy seems now to be working overtime, producing good players. Exeter have gone along that road plus some good signings that have got them where we are. IMHO, we are behind Ex and Sarries, level with Wasps and Bath and ahead of everyone else, which is why I think we will make the payoffs again. Anything after that is a bonus.

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