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Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
McSaracens (IP Logged)
19 March, 2012 19:17
Just been cited for allegedly biting Stephen Ferris during the 6 Nations game on Saturday. No place for that in sport and hopefully will only remain an alleged incident.

Not a good couple of days for Saints players, not least Callum Clark who's behaviour looked very suspicious.



I believe it might have been said before, but there is something special happening at Saracens, and I want to be part of it. - Nils Mordt

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
Farmfez (IP Logged)
19 March, 2012 19:35
I remember when Danny Grewcock got cited for biting a finger in kiwiland. If someone is fish hooking you, what are you supposed to do? I hope this is similar.

What did Callum Clarke do?

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
AlanE (IP Logged)
19 March, 2012 19:47
Quote:
Farmfez
What did Callum Clarke do?

Broke Hakwkins' (the Leicester hooker's) arm. Allegedly - I pass no judgement on it as the video evidence, from only one angle, seems blurred and inconclusive to me. There is some stuff on this on the Saints site for those with strong stomachs.

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
tpr's headmistress (IP Logged)
19 March, 2012 19:58
I think they're saying on the Tigers' site that it's a dislocated elbow.

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
1876-Fez (IP Logged)
19 March, 2012 20:12
Callum Clarke......watching this live I commented that it looked unpleasant as his arm was being forced back over the body of another player.

I am very glad it is being dealt with.


As for Hartley......it's going to be difficult to prove I feel and only hope he was "reacting" if not he should be dealt with most severely.


BBC on this.



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Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
Delynagh (IP Logged)
19 March, 2012 20:42
Heaven help Hartley, IF proven guilty.His previous history of his ban for gouging will be brought up and will influence the punishment.

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
ChrisR (IP Logged)
19 March, 2012 21:03
While I don't believe that Hawkins arm was broken, from the video you can see Calum Clark pulling the arm, and while intent is never known, he has a history as a petulant player and damage was done.

Wasn't it said recently that intent can not be taken into account, so I would see a long ban for him.

Same for Hartley because of his previous if he is proved guilty this time (and I am not presuming).

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
JO'G (IP Logged)
19 March, 2012 21:21
that looks really seriuos for Hartley; the BBC go out of their way to mention his previous form

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
Static (IP Logged)
19 March, 2012 21:25
I just cannot see how he can be guilty here. Ferris is twisting his head and even adjust his grip on his head as they go to ground. I am not sure what you do if someone is turning your head using your mouth for grip.

He may suffer due to previous but this doesn't look like he instigated anything here.

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
AlanE (IP Logged)
19 March, 2012 21:47
Quote:
tpr's headmistress
I think they're saying on the Tigers' site that it's a dislocated elbow.

Ouch! That sounds worse.

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
Teah (IP Logged)
19 March, 2012 22:23
I Have seen the you tube footage of the Calum Clark breaking Rob Hawkins arm/dislocating elbow. I think Clark is in the shoite, the penalty had been given by the referee. I am very surprised none of the Tigers went for Clark. Lengthy ban, no mitigation there, Hawkins clearly in considerable pain, forced to sit out most of the remainder of the season.

Hartley was closest to Ferris. Referee Nigel Owens sees bitemark when Ferris complains, Donnacha O'Callaghan clearly thinks its Hartley, if Ferris puts in a statement saying Hartley bit me, difficult to see any 'fish hooking' from the video footage, Hartley in the shoite. Shorter ban than Clark, but June 9 is first test v South Africa, just under 13 weeks time. Hartley needs a good lawyer!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 19/03/2012 22:25 by Teah.

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
CopthallFez (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 01:07
Looks fairly conclusive where you
">Watch it here on YouTube.


Can't see him getting away with that one.

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
bazster (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 06:58
Re Hartley, the citing officer is gonna need better evidence than is available from the broadcast footage, 'cos no-one can be seen biting anyone in that.

A mark on Ferris' finger counts for nothing, unless a recognised expert in forensic medicine can confirm that (i) it's a bite-mark and (ii) it was caused by Hartley's gnashers and no-one else's. A cursory glance by the ref confirms only that there was a mark, it tells us nothing about when or how it was caused.

What it boils down to (unless the citing officer has indeed found footage that the rest of us haven't seen) is Ferris' word - the word, that is, of a man who by his own admission nurses a grudge against England.

Having said all that, and purely hypothetically, supposing someone is stuck at the bottom of a ruck, unable to free his arms, and he has some muppet's hand exploring his face/eyes/mouth in a most unwelcome fashion. What's he supposed to do about it? Well I know what I would do: CRUNCH!

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
Eric Browett (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 07:39
If that is the only 'evidence' against Hartley on the BBC website there is no way he can be found guilty.

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
davidthesarrie (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 08:17
Circumstantial evidence does not (and should not) count for anything.

It could be, for example, Ferris felt Hartleys mouth, then bit his own finger, then showed it to teacher!

That could lead to all 16 forwards in a game biting their own finger and, after the first scrum, pointing to the other pack screaming blue murder!

Ok, a bit facetious, but evidence must be that.

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
Rich. (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 08:36
It ain't a criminal court (beyond reasonable doubt verdict needed) Hartley only needs to be found guilty on the balance of probability - so they may well say that on the B of P Ferris didn't bite his own finger etc etc

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
bazster (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 09:19
Of course, but they must surely have SOME non-circumstantial evidence beyond Ferris' word, and at the moment there doesn't seem to be any.

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
Gryff (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 10:04
I'd suspect there will be a witness statement fro O'Callaghan and I hink there's previous of people being done by RFU/6N on such

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
TOKS (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 11:16
Over the years a lot of foul-play incidents seem to have involved Ferris. Unfortunate coincidence?

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
TOKS (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 11:58
Incidentally, just watched the video of Clark on another board, and really wished I hadn't. We'll never know whether it was clumsy/heavy-handed or malicious but it looks decidedly "iffy".

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
Saint71 (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 12:10
Afternoon all

What a pleasure to see so many even handed comments (unlike on many othwer boards).

Hope to see you again in May !!

Best of luck for the remainder of the season

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
tpr's headmistress (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 12:22
How could O'Callaghan have seen it with all those bodies around, unless he was up to no good too. Even though the finger shouldn't have been anywhere near his mouth they'll get him for retaliation (not condoning biting here). Mad!(Sm147)

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
The Bard (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 13:09
Just ask Kevin Yates about proof being required for biting before you are found guilty!

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
JO'G (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 13:15
he had the ear in his teeth didn't he (Sm161)

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
TigerAlex (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 14:47
Quote:
ChrisR
While I don't believe that Hawkins arm was broken, from the video you can see Calum Clark pulling the arm, and while intent is never known, he has a history as a petulant player and damage was done.
Wasn't it said recently that intent can not be taken into account, so I would see a long ban for him.

Same for Hartley because of his previous if he is proved guilty this time (and I am not presuming).

Confirmed Hawkins out for the rest of the season with a broken arm: [twitter.com]

Nice to see such reassuring responses to this horrible incident from neutral fans smiling smiley

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
St Owen (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 15:25
Quote:
bazster
Re Hartley, the citing officer is gonna need better evidence than is available from the broadcast footage, 'cos no-one can be seen biting anyone in that.


I don't think he does.

I genuinely think the disciplinary process will be satisfied with player testimony and Owens' comment that 'a mark' was visible somewhere on Ferris' hand.

I very much doubt any of these suspensions / bans would stand up in court. I'd love someone with deep pockets to force a test case. The worst it would do would force a more professional disciplinary process, which would be good all round.




Quote:
jeremy ogaribaldi
that looks really seriuos for Hartley; the BBC go out of their way to mention his previous form.

To be fair, the BBC - like most lazy media - tend to mention it at every opportunity "Dylan Hartley - formerly banned for 'eye gouging' today helped an old lady accross the road".

It's a tag he'll never lose, but I guess he's only got himself to blame.



Also good to see some even-handed comments on here. Hartley has worked very very hard on his discipline and he would only be letting himself down if he has purposely bitten Ferris without provocation. I would be disappointed.



You can't always get what you want, But if you try sometimes well you might find, You get what you need.

Richards/Jagger

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
TOKS (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 15:40
Agree with St. Owen that DH has worked hard on his discipline, and also reiterate my previous post that Ferris just seems to be very close to all sorts of nefarious things that happen on rugby pitches.

Surely hands near face, mouth, eyes etc. suggests "provocation"?

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
bazster (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 16:01
Quote:
St Owen
Also good to see some even-handed comments on here. Hartley has worked very very hard on his discipline and he would only be letting himself down if he has purposely bitten Ferris without provocation. I would be disappointed.

I would also be very surprised.

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
ElmaFudd. (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 16:36
The problem is even if he was provoked he will still face a ban if biting is proved. Not saying that he should at all. To be honest I'm kind of resigned to the fact we will lose him for a good few weeks and as a result our playoff place is going to be even harder to acheive than it was already given our lack of cover at hooker due to injuries. All we can hope is that there isn't enough evidence to prove it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 20/03/2012 16:37 by ElmaFudd..

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
kakshaks (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 16:42
Quote:
ElmaFudd
The problem is even if he was provoked he will still face a ban if biting is proved. Not saying that he should at all. To be honest I'm kind of resigned to the fact we will lose him for a good few weeks and as a result our playoff place is going to be even harder to acheive than it was already given our lack of cover at hooker due to injuries. All we can hope is that there isn't enough evidence to prove it.
.
Shame, you might have been able to borrow Hawkins on a short term loan if he was fit smiling smiley

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
ElmaFudd. (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 16:56
Touche kakshaks. However that is a different situation which I utterly condemn if as alleged*, there was real intent to cause damage and not what this discussion is about. Thanks for the WUM though smiling smiley

*Edited to read how I meant it



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 20/03/2012 19:08 by ElmaFudd..

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
TOKS (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 17:01
Kakshaks, in the long and distinguished history of mischievous posts.....

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
tpr's headmistress (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 18:56
That was below the belt Kakshaks - play nice!(Sm102)

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
ElmaFudd. (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 19:09
was quite funny though in a sickish way (Sm128)

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
tpr's headmistress (IP Logged)
20 March, 2012 19:25
Black comedy - the British way.(Sm141)

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
Which Tyler (IP Logged)
21 March, 2012 10:25
Quote:
St Owen
I very much doubt any of these suspensions / bans would stand up in court. I'd love someone with deep pockets to force a test case. The worst it would do would force a more professional disciplinary process, which would be good all round.
It doesn't need to stand up in court though surely.
Rugby discipline is decided on the "balance of probabilities", not "beyond reasonable doubt"



http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3789/9516248130_a944476b5b_z.jpg
Adopting the KPN method. ___ To fertilise Roses K:12 P:8 N:6
A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anything
RAEBURN SHIELD


 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
St Owen (IP Logged)
21 March, 2012 11:47
[quote Which Tyler][/quote]It doesn't need to stand up in court though surely.Rugby discipline is decided on the "balance of probabilities", not "beyond reasonable doubt"[/quote]


Why shouldn't it?

It sets itself up as a legal process. A judge is in charge and the implications can have serious ramifications on the careers of all parties involved.

Why shouldn't we demand the same stringent process? What is to hide?

As I say above; The worst it would do would force a more professional disciplinary process, which would be good all round.


If I were a club and my player were found guilty on the basis of circumstantial evidence and opposition player testimony alone I would seriously consider going to the Court of Arbitration for Sport to challenge it.

What next? Reintroduce the ducking stool?



You can't always get what you want, But if you try sometimes well you might find, You get what you need.

Richards/Jagger



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 21/03/2012 11:50 by St Owen.

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
ElmaFudd. (IP Logged)
21 March, 2012 12:49
Well, he won't be playing this Saturday despite no judgment being made as he is suspended until the hearing, this if nothing else is totallly wrong and should be addressed. I am sure there wil be no compensation coming forth should he be found not guilty.

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
Graeme D (IP Logged)
21 March, 2012 12:50
St Owen

If we adopt the same system as the courts should we adopt the same punishments ?

eg an act of ABH (breaking someones arm deliberately) ,

Currently we have at present say 6 to 12 weeks watching your mates play rugby from the stands instead of playing with them

Should we change this to being locked up in a prison for a couple of years ?



Graeme

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
St Owen (IP Logged)
21 March, 2012 13:00
Graeme, point take.

I'm refering more particularly to making the process more rigerous.

Punishments can be as harsh / lenient as we want, regardless of the process.



You can't always get what you want, But if you try sometimes well you might find, You get what you need.

Richards/Jagger

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
danilo2 (IP Logged)
21 March, 2012 13:18
The problem comes that people are 'charged' (or cited) with very little evidence - if they are then subsequently found not to be guilty of any offence, their reputation is still damaged.

We can all remember Dr. V being publically charged/accused by Judge Blackett of what amounted to an assault on a supporter, without Dr V being questioned. That also wouldn't happen in a criminal case, and there have been cases where charges have been dismissed where the governing bodies have been very lucky not to have defamation procedings taken against them.

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
Convex Hull (IP Logged)
21 March, 2012 14:12
Precisely. The RFU were very fortunate that BV didn't take exception to the way that they handled that incident.



Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
kiwisarrie (IP Logged)
21 March, 2012 15:41
Re Hartley
I'm brought down to ground and somebody has their big mit all over my face and twisting my head round at the same time. My mouth is open because I'm probably shouting or at least trying to breathe. Then a digit or two comes (I'm sorry however I write this it sounds rude - not meant) into my mouth what do I do? Even the dentist is nervous when he puts his fingers in my mouth it is automatic to clamp down. Ferris' fingers shouldn't have been anyway near Hartley's mouth and definitely not in it.
I cannot believe that in the situation Hartley was in he either had the time or the room to search out Ferris finger to bite it.

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
AP (IP Logged)
21 March, 2012 21:57
You need to keep separate the concepts of civil and criminal court proceedings.

Criminal proceedings would be rare - but they have happened in cases where a player has been completely reckless in the actions he has taken. By stepping on to the pitch a player is consenting to being tackled or otherwise knocked about, with the laws and customs of the game. No-one would want a greater involvement in the game of the criminal process but gouging / fish hooking seems to me to be an area where it could reasonably arise.

Civil proceedings would be in two situations. The first where an injured player (or his club or insurer) sues the person who harmed him. If a reckless tackle breaks a player's leg and ends his career, then there could be an action for damages. Again, there are precedents for that.

The other situation is the one relevant to the "offender" - is the disciplinary process fair and properly applied in a proportionate manner? The English courts have been reluctant to be involved in this because by stepping on to the pitch the player, especially a professional, has accept the disciplinary rules. But there is jurisdiction if the process is unfair, the finding of guilt irrational or the punishment disproportionate. To be honest, I doubt whether any of those would be likely to be found to have occurred in most rugby disciplinary cases. And being cleared by the disciplinary panel would be seen as removing any implication of guilt from being cited and suspended.

Well, that's what I think. Do any of the proper lawyers out there disagree?

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
Fat Boy (IP Logged)
22 March, 2012 09:32
Quote:
AP
Well, that's what I think. Do any of the proper lawyers out there disagree?

I'm not a proper lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that proper lawyers have dealt with this.

I have heard of criminal charges being pressed on a couple of occasions and also insurers chasing the responsible party for damages (though the latter case was scuppered by the player making a surprise recovery!) I would imagine it's rare for players to chase for damages as it is easier to let the insurers sort it out.

In the case of the latter that has been done at relatively high profile with Nones many years ago and the likes of Tincu more recently succesfully challenging European Cup bans. Although the bans stand in European competition (I think) the argument is that ERC have no authority over and therefore no legal right to restrict their business in the French Leagues. If the bans were confirmed by FFR they would stand but otherwise not, and at least in the Tincu case they weren't prepared to do that as they felt that there was insufficient evidence. That's my non-lawyer understanding anyway. And of course WADA is currently challenging the BOC zero-tolerance approach to doping. That's going through CAS rather than the British courts, but CAS have to apply local law to ensure that their decisions can be enforced. That's my non-lawyer understanding anyway.

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
bazster (IP Logged)
22 March, 2012 09:51
I don't think it's necessary to apply criminal standards of proof, but an injection of common sense and an application of what would seem to be natural justice is indicated.

It would be plain wrong for a player to be subjected to a long, career-impinging ban without there being any direct (i.e. not circumstantial) and independent evidence. Expecting at least some such evidence is long way from requiring proof beyond reasonable doubt.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 22/03/2012 09:54 by bazster.

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
bazster (IP Logged)
22 March, 2012 10:06
Quote:
Which Tyler
Rugby discipline is decided on the "balance of probabilities", not "beyond reasonable doubt"

I see from your slagging me off on Rugby Rebels that my criticism of your holier-than-thou stance on this has struck a nerve LOL!

BTW, if someone sticks their fingers in your face/eyes/mouth and you bite, that isn't retaliation, it's self-defence. Although I'm not saying that's what happened here because I don't know what was going on at the bottom of that ruck, and nor do you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 22/03/2012 10:09 by bazster.

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
TOKS (IP Logged)
22 March, 2012 10:20
Let the Calum Clarke one take its course but personally I hope that Dylan does not face any further sanction. Rugby is a physical enough game anyway without the (mercifully few) individuals who step onto a pitch intent on causing trouble. Ferris regrettably is one of those individuals (and in fact his inflammatory comments in the press before the game indicate his "tendancies" are not limited to the pitch).

If you put your fingers where they shouldn't be then you need a short sharp (and painful) reminder of precisely why they shouldn't be there. Case closed.

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
JO'G (IP Logged)
22 March, 2012 13:22
just reviewing the clip on the BBC again - Ferris' hand does seem to be in an unusual position. From where his shoulder and body was lying, I would have expected his lower arm and hand to be further down in the ruck near the ball

It seems as if he was making a special effort in moving it near Hartleys ... err mouth

 
Re: Dylan 'Tyson' Hartley
TOKS (IP Logged)
22 March, 2012 13:30
Precisely JOG, perhaps "Trying to gouge, but missed" should be on the list of reasons to cite as well.

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