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So what do we need......
Discussion started by McSaracens , 09 April, 2012 10:02
So what do we need......
McSaracens 09 April, 2012 10:02
in order to compete with the best in Europe?

TBH I am not too downhearted by yesterday's game, Clermont were excellent and I'm not too sure that any team in Europe could have beaten them yesterday. However, the question is how do we bridge the gap between ourselves and the top European powerhouses?

Injuries have obviously played a role this season and haven't allowed the rotation that we have become acustomed to. The return of Burger and Brown will be like new signings next season while Saull and Smit have been missed. Add into those guys Tomkins and Ashton and hoepfully we have some real quality that can bring us closer to the likes of Clermont, Leinster and the rest. On top of that do we need more recruits or is the current squad good enough? Obviously we'll probably need to bring in someone in the second row, however that would be more of a squad signing.

Game plan is of course incredibly important. It's difficult to know what to say really, you could acuse us of being one dimensional however you cannot argue that it has driven results. Clermont played a very kicking orientated game today and look at the results! Linked to the above I hope that Ashton's signature will help us score tries, at least on paper a back three of Strettle, Ashton and Goode looks deadly.

In the meantime let's get back on the wagon and retain the Premiership!



“I believe it might have been said before, but there is something special happening at Saracens, and I want to be part of it.” - Nils Mordt

Re: So what do we need......
ChrisR 09 April, 2012 10:08
Our scrum is underpowered for whatever reason, whether that means we need a decent loosehead, or an international class 2nd row (we only have Borthwick, Botha and Kruis now, right?).

Also as I mentioned in another thread, we need a 13 capable of breaking the line and offloading, Tomkins to step up, Stanley to step up or recruiting one...

Also we need to work on our attacking system, lets be honest we didn't just get beaten yesterday, we didn't even make a game of it, 10 minutes into the 2nd half and we were gone. We can't rely on a kicking game and other teams making mistakes at this level, as Clermont showed, if they don't make mistakes then they will kill you with that much ball.

Competing with a team that can field two Premiership quality sides is always going to be an ask, but our squad at the moment is not sufficient to win the HC.

Re: So what do we need......
Southport Sarrie 09 April, 2012 10:08
I'm worried about Jaques Burger's injury and what he is going to be like when or if he returns from it. I hope that we haven't another Richard Hill scenario (playing a few games with one dodgy leg) with that one.

I think we do need to recruit in the second row, I'm sure Hugh will be retiring at the end of this season, Hayden Smith has left and Borthers can't go on for much longer surely? I was asking what happened to Harry Spencer and he went to Tarbes so I wonder if he could be brought back. George Kruis looks good.

Ashton will bring experience and Tompkins will have time to develop too. So it shouldn't be all doom and gloom. Maybe another prop (you can't have too many decent props).

The one thing that is happening with our inexperienced players is that they are getting experienced. Remember even Richard Hill was inexperienced once.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2012 10:09 by Ginger John.

Re: So what do we need......
Gryff 09 April, 2012 10:15
Am worried that we won't advance next year we have seen impact injuries can have. We need to play Tomkins and see if it works and sort out front row.

Re: So what do we need......
Wayoutwest2 09 April, 2012 10:22
I am worried about our back division...

On paper with that level of individual talent we should be scoring three or four tries a game. But we don't. The ball goes from side to side with no penetration of the defence. It's been like this for a couple of seasons now. We only score tries against poor or badly organised defences.

Tries win games at this level.

Re: So what do we need......
ExLoosehead 09 April, 2012 10:23
I think I may have mentioned this before........ but I'll mention it again, we need a "monster" tighthead (the next Julian White) and a second row "enforcer" (the next Danny Grewcock). Can we also add two centres to the list who CAN and WILL pass the ball to our back three. (Sm72)

Re: So what do we need......
mk-fez 09 April, 2012 10:35
In short we need:
1) To sort out the scrum - Matt has been struggling to bind with his opposite number and while we can doubt the partiality of Allan Rolland, our scrums led to countless Clermont penalties
2) To bring creativity in attack, especially resolve the centres and not just bringing in players out of their usual positions (discussed further in another thread)
3) To get the back row players fit again asap - we've been too complacent in the breakdown as Tigers, Quins and Clermont have exploited with their pick 'n' drives from their rucks
4) To get swift recycle from our rucks - perhaps we should have started with Neil and not Wiggy v Clermont?
5) To get more accuracy in the kicking game - or maybe Charlie just had a bad day v Clermont?
Otherwise we will not even make the Prem play-offs if we continue to play as badly as we did v Clermont.

Re: So what do we need......
Stopsy 09 April, 2012 10:41
Luck with injuries
Some luck on the field
A better scrum
The main thing you need is experience and you are gaining that all the time.
More experience of playing different game plans for when your very successful plan a doesn't work

Re: So what do we need......
saracens4life 09 April, 2012 10:50
What Stopsy said.

Re: So what do we need......
feeler 09 April, 2012 11:06
Quote:
ExLoosehead
I think I may have mentioned this before........ but I'll mention it again, we need a "monster" tighthead (the next Julian White) and a second row "enforcer" (the next Danny Grewcock). Can we also add two centres to the list who CAN and WILL pass the ball to our back three. (Sm72)

This is why I was a bit suprised at the Ashton signing. Undoubtedly he is a very good finisher, but it does seem to be a position where I dont think you get great value from spending a large % of your cap.

Its a Tigers type viewpoint but the most important player at your club is tighthead and the 2nd most important is his backup.

In my view it's telling that throughout all the success of the last 15 years Tigers have managed this without world class combinations at 9 or 10, but have had a tough gnarly forward pack.

Whilst we can thank our acedemy for producing Dan Cole, players like Castro can still be found playing at smaller european teams or like Ayerza playing amateur rugby back in Argentina.

Secondly I think you were a bit unlucky that Clermont seemed to preserve their best performance of the season for that game.

Re: So what do we need......
FezUnite 09 April, 2012 12:44
Same here, Ashton is no doubt a godo finisher and a great singing, but not when he comes with a hefty wage bill and we have could do with enforcements elsewhere. Short has come through from the academy lately, Taylor is looking good as well not to mention some of the wingers playing in the Championship at the moment. We've known for a while we could do with another prop and a 13, then with vyv and smith leaving second row could be worthwhile adding another option to.

Still, I have faith in the team and coaches and if Tomkins can adapt and Stanley can stay fit (not to mention Powell) then we have good 13s but the whole team needs to work better in attack.

Re: So what do we need......
Kat. 09 April, 2012 12:49
"So what do we need......"

.... the same salary cap as the French.

Re: So what do we need......
Gryff 09 April, 2012 13:04
2000 new season ticket holders with same demographic and joie de vivre as the Clermont supporters

Re: So what do we need......
SarrieGirl 09 April, 2012 13:14
We all need to relax a bit !!

Yesterday we were beaten by the better team , a team containing virtually the French national side , a team with much more HC experience than ours and a team with almost double the salary cap as ours !

That team scored just the one try !

Our team is not yet a HC team , it takes several moments like yesterday & last season away at Leinster etc for a team to grow & develop to the stage where we will be strong enough to compete at the latter stages !

We have a lot of young players currently playing first-team & a young coaching set-up and this experience & these tests against much better sides is a fantastic learning experience for all concerned !

Yesterday was a disappointment , the team didn't play well & we did deserve to lose ! But there is a lot to be upbeat about and to look forward to for the rest of the season !

We may not be a HC team but we are a very , very good Premiership team with a title to defend ! Keep the faith , believe & stick together ! We can do this !!

Stand Up !

Re: So what do we need......
ChrisR 09 April, 2012 15:36
SarrieGirl, I would agree if we had even made a game of it, but we did not...

We will make the play-offs this year in the AP, but I as I mentioned on a thread many moons ago, I don't think we will retain the title.

In the semi or the final, all that needs to happen is for opposition to match our intensite and work rate and we will lack the penetration to win.

Re: So what do we need......
saracens4life 09 April, 2012 16:17
Kat - that may be what we need - but it's certainly not what the Premiership needs...

Re: So what do we need......
Static 09 April, 2012 17:07
One thought on our limited gameplan, that was eluded to on the commentary/half time analysis yesterday, was that Vicarage Road is small and narrow. Therefore playing an expansive game is very difficult and really becomes limiting. At Wembley I thought there seemed more space against Quins who tackled us into touch 3 times within 5 yards of their line, so we were not doing too much wrong to create the space, not enough but definitely more. I hope Copthall is wider.

Seemed to me we need to pick and go close to the rucks earlier in the game to commit Clermont players to create space wider. They only put in one or two players to the contact all afternoon so there was always a wall of white to attack.

Tbh - I am not that despondent, when you get beaten like we were, you just have to pick yourself up and get on with. I read in one of the articles over the weekend where Venter said when Strettle joined, I think it was, that there are 2 types of error, a technical error and an effort error. What we have are technical errors and not effort ones. If we had not played the full 80 mins I would have been more disappointed. This can all be corrected over time. We have still come a long way in a short time, and I think will keep improving.

Re: So what do we need......
camerounfred 09 April, 2012 19:11
Quote:
Wayoutwest2
I am worried about our back division...
The ball goes from side to side with no penetration of the defence. It's been like this for a couple of seasons now. We only score tries against poor or badly organised defences.

Spot on... our centres are good defenders, but even though they are now England internationals they lack the pace and acceleration necessary to beat a strong defence. More ingenuity with our running lines and angles coupled with a better offloading game from our forwards (like Hines yesterday) is also necessary.

Re: So what do we need......
09 April, 2012 19:31
Quote:
Gryff
2000 new season ticket holders with same demographic and joie de vivre as the Clermont supporters

This. Plus-

Get the back row fit again, a Rougerie at centre, more penetration from the forwards when catching and driving ,look what Quins did to us at Wembley, Clermont needed to commit hardly any players to the tackle when we tried this allowing their defence to be ready in numbers when we tried to fling it out to the backs. Lastly, and it concerns the back row again, a new number 8, I don't know who we have coming through but Joubert looks tired to me, I think we need a bit of freshness at 8. Shame as Joub's was my favourite player a couple of seasons ago.



twitter.com/cjonesy77

Re: So what do we need......
Mac L 09 April, 2012 20:11
I think looking up could also help. At times it seemed that the one with the ball looked only only one way and possibly missed alternative options.

Re: So what do we need......
Roger de catt 09 April, 2012 20:11
We need more ummph in the scrum - Someone moving into the line at pace from deep. Matt to lose a bit of weight !!

Re: So what do we need......
flyingsniffer 09 April, 2012 20:42
May not be in the same league of importance as the players but can we put a new supporters song on the agenda?

The baleful moaning of 'Sarries, sarries, sarries' depresses me, goodness only knows what it does to the players. We were outplayed on the pitch and outsung in the stands. Perhaps we cannot do much from where we sit about the former but....

Oh and its not 'Stand up'. I'm not singing that.

EDIT - sorry, didn't realise there was another thread running on this subject. My bad, the discussion there says everything there is to say ( all v.sensible)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/04/2012 22:34 by flyingsniffer.

Re: So what do we need......
beshocked 10 April, 2012 09:50
An experienced and powerful loosehead.

A class lock

A true 13.

More creativity.I think the Sarries gameplan is too rigid. It prevents the players from thinking outside the box. Some of the play by Sarries seems unnatural and forced.

Saracens need to work on variety,support play, keep the opposition guessing.

There simply needs to be a plan B.

I think too much emphasis has been on defence,more needs to be on attack.

A good balance of defence and attack is ideal.

Innovation and adaptability is key.

Don't panic. When losing don't try too hard. Just go back to basics.

Simply too many handling errors against Clermont which didn't allow momentum to be built.

Momentum is also an important word. Saracens find it difficult to build up momentum. Particularly in attack.

Re: So what do we need......
ChrisR 10 April, 2012 09:54
I agree with beshocked above but also...

Do we lack a big powerful ball carrier that scares the opposition when he is on the charge, the Tiny's and Mujati's of Saints, the number 8 from Quins (not Easter) the name escapes me, the Tuilagi's of Leicester?

We seem to be lateral and our pod of forwards always seem to lose ground rather than gain it. Our wings are fast, as is Brits with good feet but I think we lack a physical carrier that can make meters.

Re: So what do we need......
beshocked 10 April, 2012 10:02
ChrisR I agree with that.

I think Mako Vunipola could be that at loosehead in the future. Also I think Jackson Wray always seems to make good yards.

How about signing Mako's brother from Wasps - Billy Vunipola?

Still gutted we didn't sign Richie Gray.

Oh and another point Cobus Visagie needs to work with the Saracens' props on scrummaging!

Re: So what do we need......
Roger G 10 April, 2012 10:10
IMHO we need to not be too downhearted!!

We've had a dip in form and lost more games than we like to over the last few weeks but that doesn't mean the wheels have come off. On Saturday we lost to an outstanding team packed with internationals - no disgrace there.

But our coaches, who know a zillion times more about rugby than I do, often talk about the 5 year development plan for the team. Our defence is outstanding compared to most, but not all, of the opposition we come up against. Our attack needs more work, but why would we be bringing people like Ashton to the club if the coaching staff weren't already on the case wrt attack?

Yes, I'm disappointed with our current form, but I don't think we need wholesale changes. Getting back even one of our injured, experienced, back row players would help enormously IMHO, and I agree with the need for an extra prop or two and a specialist outside centre (Tomkins?). But I don't think there are any fundamental problems to fix, just the need to get better at certain aspects of the game. The one thing that IMHO sets the likes of Leinster and Clermont above us, and gives them more midfield penetration, is the timing of their offloads going into contact.

Re: So what do we need......
Graeme D 10 April, 2012 10:12
How about getting that big guy that plays at Bath, has played at 12/13 for England under Martin Johnson.

Matt something or another ?



Graeme

Re: So what do we need......
beshocked 10 April, 2012 10:32
Roger G I disagree.We are 0-5 against Clermont and Leinster in the HC - 3 of those games at home. Saracens simply haven't been able to cut it against the best sides in Europe.

If Saracens have any aspirations to win the HC they need to sort out the deficiencies.

Clermont are a good side but Saracens are packed with international players too. I think our players should be good enough to beat Clermont. I don't believe the salary cap excuses. The blame falls squarely on the coaches.

Sunday was not a plucky loss. It was a pretty humiliating loss at home.

A real opportunity to win the HC completely thrown out of the window.

Even if we had Burger and Brown we wouldn't have won.


Do you not think our one dimensional attack is a problem?


Graeme D I presume you are joking?

The first step to solving a problem is to admit there is one!

Re: So what do we need......
AlanE 10 April, 2012 10:40
Quote McS - "The return of Burger and Brown will be like new signings next season..."

Well hopefully so, but isn't Jacques out for 9 months starting only a couple of weeks ago when he had his second op?

So I think we will be kucky to see him this side of Christmas - and we seriously need to sort out the contact area.

And the alignment and plays of our backs (agree with beshocked)!

Re: So what do we need......
McSaracens 10 April, 2012 10:41
From my point of view there's nothing wrong with the current squad, it's just that we need a few more dynamic ball players to compete at the top table. Brad must be one of the best players in Europe at getting you over the gain line, however apart from him we don't really have that enormous player that can punch holes. The coaches obviously hope that Joel Tomkins is that answer to this while someone like Kameli could have been handy at the weekend.

IIRC Edward G suggested on here that there wouldn't be any more signings, however perhaps this weekend means a rethink is on the cards. Answering my own question about a replacement for Deon Carstens he said that we wouldn't be pursuing a prop. Rarely do I question the coaches, however on this one I would have to say we need a look around. While we have a decent scrum we don't have the dominance of Saints or Tigers at the set piece.

As for specific signings:

Tighthead or loosehead prop - someone destructive in the tight.

Second row - direct replacement for HUGE and Hayden Smith.

Apart from that I don't really see any other signings coming in. An outside centre is obviously on the wishlist, however with Tomkins arrival I think we are looking long term at Joel being the answer.



“I believe it might have been said before, but there is something special happening at Saracens, and I want to be part of it.” - Nils Mordt

Re: So what do we need......
Gryff 10 April, 2012 10:51
Thinking more about this over last few days I still think we need a top class outside centre but maybe that is Tomkins.

I'll whisper it quietly but I have been thinking for a while we need a top class 7.

Re: So what do we need......
Innings 10 April, 2012 10:57
Sorry beshocked, but I think anyone who ever thought we could win the HC this times was allowing their pipedreams to take over. We are not even close to being good enough to win knockout matches against the top Irish and French sides.

As I pointed out elsewhere, one of their flankers has more international caps than the total senior experience of our two starting flankers on Sunday, Wray and Fraser. Vunipola has almost no senior experience. Kruis and George are learners at this level. That list alone represents a significant part of Sarries squad on Sunday. To expect them to win against a squad like Clermont's, Ulster's or Leinster's is simply delusional.

Re: So what do we need......
ChrisR 10 April, 2012 11:03
Home semi final, should have at least made a game out of it, we didn't, therefore the squad isn't good enough currently. Sorry, those are the bare facts.

I don't think we have done well enough in the HC this year to compensate for the seeding points we are going to lose for the next draw. So we can expect a pool of death scenario.

If the squad stays the same for next season, why should we expect to win the HC, which is a stated ambition for the club.

McCall expected to win on Sunday, as he stated in his interview post match on SKY.

Re: So what do we need......
1876-Fez 10 April, 2012 11:05
McCall says we will bounce back!!

"I think we came up against an outstanding team who were very motivated,"
Well I hope our team was bl@@dy well motivated also!



McCall...Bounce back



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Re: So what do we need......
Graeme D 10 April, 2012 11:06
Quote:
beshocked

Graeme D I presume you are joking?


(Sm14)

Well people are talking about a big centre who can punch holes in a defence. Having stood alongside Joel Tomkins the other day he certainly didn't seem to match up to that description.I reckon he is a little over 6 foot and doubt if he makes 16 stone, not a lot of difference to Faz.



Graeme

Re: So what do we need......
beshocked 10 April, 2012 11:10
Innings we would have had two home games at Twickenham. Real opportunity missed in my opinion. Saracens should not be in awe of opposition. It's not the right mindset in my opinion.

Fraser,Kruis,Wray,George and Vunipola are all quality professional rugby players. The only way they get experience is by playing them.

FezUnite on another thread posted a team for the London Irish side which I really like the look of.

The way I would target the London Irish game. Just go for it. Really channel the hurt and humiliation of the Clermont loss into a brutal backlash.

1.Vunipola
2.Brits
3.Nieto
4.Borthwick
5.Kruis
6.Wray
7.Fraser
8.Joubert
9.De Kock
10.Hodgson
11.Short
12.Barritt
13.Tomkins
14.Tagicakibau
15.Goode

Might not be the most experienced team but the likes of Tomkins,Tagicakibau,Kruis,Vunipola and Wray will be chomping at the bit for some first team action. Tagicakibau especially needs to face his brother.

Give them license to play hard direct rugby. Kruis,Wray and Vunipola to make big hard yards in the pack.

Throw caution to the wind and play some proper attacking rugby.

Re: So what do we need......
McSaracens 10 April, 2012 11:20
Can we pinch Neemia Tialata and Mark Chisholm from Bayonne? That would certainly help shore us up at scrumtime! More realisticly I have always held Euan Murray in high regard, shame he doesn't play on Sundays.

Looking at our props:

Loosehead: Gill, Smit, Vunipola, Saunders, Auterac
Tighthead: Nieto, Stevens, Du Plessis

However, on reflection of the above you would suggest loosehead is the weaker area.



“I believe it might have been said before, but there is something special happening at Saracens, and I want to be part of it.” - Nils Mordt

Re: So what do we need......
matabass 10 April, 2012 12:41
What do we need?

Players playing in their correct positions for a start. Why Farrell was not played at 10 I'll never know! He is the England 10 for Christs sake!??!? Absolutely crazy selection decision. Could've played Wyles or Powell at 13 and had our best player playing in his best position. Not a great way to look after your 10, putting him right in the firing line!

Borthwick needs to make yards in the loose or drop him. De Kock, Joubert, Wiggy can all captain just as well if not better and one lineout steal a game does not make up for his complete inability to carry the ball forward. Kruis and Botha are the standout locks, with Vyvs on the bench please.

Re: So what do we need......
Hoggers 10 April, 2012 12:54
Beshocked interseting selection for the Irish game but I agree with you we need to realy go for it on Saturday. My biggest issues apart from the scrum is that lately we are making chances and not using the overlaps created misplaced final pass or running inside instead of a simple pass.Also nobody straightening and getting over the gainline cositently apart from Brad who looks knackerd tbh.

Re: So what do we need......
thorneG 11 April, 2012 21:14
TBH what we need more than anything is experience, especially in depth.

The ASM squad we played had virtually 300 more HC appearances and 300 more international caps than we did, and players who had been there and done it before as HC and challenge cup winners. This in tight and tough knockout matches is always going to give a team the edge, I may be wrong but I thought a few of our players seemed nervous on Sunday.

In the long term getting our younger players out playing in these matches should bring benefits (assuming we are able to hold on to them) but in the shorter term I honestly don't think with things as they are now that we or other English clubs have much of a chance of progressing to the HC final, as for us especially the lack of big match experience can't be turned around overnight.

Irrespective of the domestic implications of altering the cap, in Europe it is always going to be an uphill battle playing sides with either a budget twice as large as yours or centrally contracted players and unless there is an expansion of the cap that's not going to change.

Re: So what do we need......
McSaracens 12 April, 2012 13:25
Just a quick thought, when do we intend to play games at Copthall next season? Obvioulsy with Newcastle looking likely to go down Euan Murray is available, now I'm not saying we should sign him, however the ability to have a world class prop at a cut price could fit in well with rotation?



“I believe it might have been said before, but there is something special happening at Saracens, and I want to be part of it.” - Nils Mordt

Re: So what do we need......
AlanE 12 April, 2012 14:33
Most games will be in Sunday, so it has been said.


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