rugbyunion
Latest News:
New Page 1

Whatever your views on Saracens, whether a Sarries fan or not, leave them here.

To leave a message on this board you must register. To register click HERE, it takes only a minute.
Non-rugby posts are welcome, but please prefix your subject header with "OT" or "Off Topic".


Thought for the Day:
SO CLOSE!

Latest:ASM CLERMONT AUVERGNE 24:21 SARACENS
Next LEICESTER TIGERS v SARACENS Sun 24th Dec 15.00
Aviva, Welford Rd
Audio: Click the link below. If it ain't there, it ain't on!
Upcoming TV: Leicester v Saracens
Sun 24th Dec 2017 BT Sport 1 14.30

BBC Online Rugby Union Commentaries

The Fish | Rugby Union News | Fez Boys | Saracens Fixtures | The SSA


England in Argentina
4everhopePhil (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 08:58
Squad
Forwards
Will Collier (Harlequins, uncapped)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 1 cap)
Dylan Hartley - captain (Northampton Saints, 84 caps)
James Haskell (Wasps, 75 caps)
Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 8 caps)
Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, uncapped)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 42 caps)
Matt Mullan (Wasps, 15 caps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 55 caps)
Sam Underhill (Ospreys/Bath Rugby, uncapped)
Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 50 caps)

Backs
Mike Brown - vice-captain (Harlequins, 60 caps)
Danny Care - vice captain (Harlequins, 71 caps)
Joe Cokanasiga (London Irish, uncapped)
Nathan Earle (Saracens, uncapped)
George Ford - vice captain (Bath Rugby, 35 caps)
Piers Francis (Auckland Blues/Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Sam James (Sale Sharks, uncapped)
Alex Lozowski (Saracens, uncapped)
Harry Mallinder (Northampton Saints, uncapped)
Joe Marchant (Harlequins, uncapped)
Jack Maunder (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 25 caps)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 4 caps)
Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, uncapped)

Congratulations to Nick I, Nathan and Alex L but commiserations to Alex Goode, Ben Spencer, Nick Tompkins and Jackson Wray



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 20/04/2017 09:11 by 4everhopePhil.

 
Re: England in Argentina
Pimpernel44 (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 09:17
I'm getting the impression that it's about something other than what happens on the pitch with Alex. Guessing that there may have been a free and frank exchange of views between him and Yoda at some point (remember how Yoda took against Ben Jacobs whilst at Saracens?)

What on earth does Jackson have to do? Just cannot understand how Wood gets in ahead of him - or even Hughes for that matter, who hardly set the world alight during the 6N.

 
Re: England in Argentina
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 09:22
This squad isn't picked solely on merit, there is a development element to it.

I am surprised that Nick Tompkins isn't on the plane. Perhaps he's on standby for the Lions winking smiley



£630.67 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2016.

 
Re: England in Argentina
SBFez (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 09:47
Was also going to note my disappointment for Tompkins.

I guess he just hasn't played enough rugby this season- like Spencer.

Did Tompkins not play quite well for the Saxons last summer?

 
Re: England in Argentina
Pimpernel44 (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 09:54
Quote:
SBFez
Was also going to note my disappointment for Tompkins.
I guess he just hasn't played enough rugby this season- like Spencer.

Did Tompkins not play quite well for the Saxons last summer?

They've both played a lot more than Nick Isiekwe.

 
Re: England in Argentina
NickL (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 10:00
Well done to Isiekwe, Earle and Lozowski. I'm surprised not to see Tompkins in there with most of England's regular centres away with the Lions, and like many others I wonder what more Wray has to do. Wasps might feel more aggrieved than Sarries though, with seemingly obvious next-in-line selections like Taylor and Robson missing out and Wade ignored again. With a few games still to play and a tough schedule in NZ there are likely to be injury replacements in both the Lions and England squads, so those not selected now might still get a chance.

Disappointed to see Solomona selected, because I think playing rugby league for another country (before qualifying via a shorter residency than the RFU is now arguing for) should rule him out, but I might be on my own with that one.

 
Re: England in Argentina
Pimpernel44 (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 10:08
Quote:
NickL
Disappointed to see Solomona selected, because I think playing rugby league for another country (before qualifying via a shorter residency than the RFU is now arguing for) should rule him out, but I might be on my own with that one.

I think you probably are. The rules are what they are, regardless of whether the RFU wants them changed, and if a rugby league career were to count against you then where would you draw the line? Rugby league is not rugby union, so you are effectively saying that representing another country at any sport should rule you out of consideration for England RU.

 
Re: England in Argentina
TimH (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 10:42
No Alex, Wiggy, or even Wray, I could just about understand. We are biased after all.

But no Spencer or Tompkins? Surely they still fit the remit of 'development'.

Baffling in the extreme.

 
Re: England in Argentina
Rubz (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 11:08
Four fly halves and only one full back selected. Might mean that Eddie is looking at Loz as a full back.

 
Re: England in Argentina
Seany_Boy0511 (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 11:22
Nick T was unlucky same with Ben Spencer, I've always said with Wray he just happens to be unfortunate, as he is one of those players that is exceptional but too many other players who are experienced at International level, thus will probably never make the England team, on a positive that's a massive bonus for us during 6N and AI periods though, I feel Alex G will not see an England shirt again, Still massive congratulations to Nick I, Nathan and Alex L

 
Re: England in Argentina
Adey (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 12:03
I don't think Spencer can feel too hard done by. He's not setting the world alight this season. Robson and Simpson would be ahead of him and they've been overlooked too.

 
Re: England in Argentina
vunipolae (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 12:39
Amazed Isiekwe is in the squad after one premiership game. Fantastic potential and a great achievement for him but surely too soon. Is there a shortage of second rows? I'm not surprised Goode and Eight aren't in it, they aren't on Jones' radar. Spencer hasn't been playing well enough to get in. Can't believe Wray isn't in it, our second best player this season after Rhodes and significantly better than the likes of Wood. Also surprised Earle is in the team when Wade isn't. Surely he should get a chance even if he's not everyone's cup of tea.

 
Re: England in Argentina
Dolph42 (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 12:40
I don't think any Saracens players have been unlucky when you consider the way the tour squad has been constructed. Spencer hasn't been pulling up trees and Tompkins has been playing less than Marchant for instance, Wray and Goode are probably viewed as a step below international class along with Wade, Cips, Roko etc. - and I wouldn't argue with that.

The 1XV will be Jones' next choice after the 16 Lions and then the remaining 15 players are more or less up and comers. Jones will have 3 weeks or so to have a long look at the likes of Isiekwe, Earle, the Curry's etc to decide whether they're cut out for international rugby. If he lights a fire under one or two of them they can be bolters for the RWC.

My only surprise is no 3rd choice hooker - especially as Hartley is probably next in line for any Lions injuries.

 
Re: England in Argentina
daz_71 (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 16:00
Not surprised Alex isn't in but quite simply he should be!

Jackson Wray's omission amazes me. One of the best players in the AP this season in across all positions.

 
Re: England in Argentina
SaintED (IP Logged)
20 April, 2017 21:00
It's very sad for players to miss out but given the number of Sarries players away with the Lions maybe its not the worst thing in the world to only allow Eddie Jones to injure three of your other players?

 
Re: England in Argentina
King Zak (IP Logged)
21 April, 2017 07:09
Does Isiekwe's inclusion mean he won't be in the U20 World Cup squad? I think the England tour starts pretty much as that tournament finishes. I certainly hope he's there!



Nous sommes l'armée noir et rouge !

 
Re: England in Argentina
mk-fez (IP Logged)
21 April, 2017 07:29
Quote:
King Zak
Does Isiekwe's inclusion mean he won't be in the U20 World Cup squad? I think the England tour starts pretty much as that tournament finishes. I certainly hope he's there!

Sadly the JWC runs from 31st May to 18th June in Tblisi, Georgia, and Nick will miss that when he's with England in Argentina. I am amazed at his call-up btw.

 
Re: England in Argentina
Roger G (IP Logged)
21 April, 2017 07:42
This video of Eddie talking about the youngsters seems to suggest that they are being seen as potential stars of the future. If he's taking these youngsters on tour with what remains of his normal squad (after taking the Lions out) to look at who might look comfortable at international level and who not then that sounds like a good move to me....and a good reason for leaving out senior "fringe" players (like Alex) who he's probably already ruled out of contention for the next WC anyway (however unreasonable that may seem to the one-eyed of us).

 
Re: England in Argentina
#wolfpack (IP Logged)
21 April, 2017 07:57
Quote:
NickL
Disappointed to see Solomona selected, because I think playing rugby league for another country (before qualifying via a shorter residency than the RFU is now arguing for) should rule him out, but I might be on my own with that one.

You are not on your own. I think its terrible he's been selected.

May as well scrap internationals altogether and simply have an elite league based match. Those who play professionally in England vs Those who play professionally in Argentina.
That's all this is now.

I also think its dreadful C J Stander has been selected for the Lions. When the Lions were out in South Africa and we were all despairing and O'Gara's up and under, how do you think Stander reacted to the decision of his 'fellow countryman'? I think there is a problem when a man who grew up dreaming to play against the Lions takes the space in the squad of a man who grew up dreaming to play for them.

 
Re: England in Argentina
JO'G (IP Logged)
21 April, 2017 08:08
Quote:
Pimpernel44
Quote:
NickL
Disappointed to see Solomona selected, because I think playing rugby league for another country (before qualifying via a shorter residency than the RFU is now arguing for) should rule him out, but I might be on my own with that one.
so you are effectively saying that representing another country at any sport should rule you out of consideration for England RU.

not on your own - and yes; representing another country at anything should rule you out of representing England at anything



Park team from London
Just a park team from London
European Champions
Just European champions

 
Re: England in Argentina
primavesi (IP Logged)
21 April, 2017 08:36
Quote:
Pimpernel44
Quote:
NickL
Disappointed to see Solomona selected, because I think playing rugby league for another country (before qualifying via a shorter residency than the RFU is now arguing for) should rule him out, but I might be on my own with that one.

I think you probably are. The rules are what they are, regardless of whether the RFU wants them changed, and if a rugby league career were to count against you then where would you draw the line? Rugby league is not rugby union, so you are effectively saying that representing another country at any sport should rule you out of consideration for England RU.

He is most certainly not on his own. International sport should not be about mercenarys seeking to maximise their incomes. We have the club game for that. It is supposed to be about representing your country. I understand that for some people the concept of "their country" is complicated and that is fine, if for example you have an English parent or moved to England as a minor then I don´t have a problem. But I find the idea of the richest unions effectively buying the services of players with no connection at all to that country apart from having worked there a few years pretty distasteful. I have lived and worked in Spain for the last 4 years but that does not make me Spanish and should not make me eligible to represent them at Rugby!

 
Re: England in Argentina
Adey (IP Logged)
21 April, 2017 08:39
So you don't want Billy, Mako, Hughes, Rokoduguni anywhere near the England team.

How about Mo Botha or Brad?

 
Re: England in Argentina
Seany_Boy0511 (IP Logged)
21 April, 2017 08:56
It's a difficult debate, I mean nowadays residency seems to supercede being born in your birth country, I believe if you qualify on residency grounds or family connections then long may it continue

 
Re: England in Argentina
JO'G (IP Logged)
21 April, 2017 08:59
Quote:
Adey
So you don't want Billy, Mako, Hughes, Rokoduguni anywhere near the England team.
How about Mo Botha or Brad?

Billy and Mako have spent most of their lives in the British Isles. I think that gives them a place, but Hughes and Roko came here as adults so not

Brad has an English parent so he qualifies; Mo - no (neither Mo actually - Mo Farah is in the same situation)



Park team from London
Just a park team from London
European Champions
Just European champions

 
Re: England in Argentina
Dolph42 (IP Logged)
21 April, 2017 09:14
Jones has a duty to win games for England, he picks players who are eligible for England who will achieve that, he is absolutely right not to choose the moral high ground on this issue -
as are the Lions.

This is an emotive issue, and everyone has different ideas on what the criteria should be. Personally I don't agree with J'OG that someone willing to die for his country (Roko) or someone who has lived in this country since the age of 8 (Mo Farah) should be less eligible than someone with a British parent that moved here as an adult.

 
Re: England in Argentina
primavesi (IP Logged)
21 April, 2017 09:36
My own view is that if you were not born in the country in question then you should have either a parent from there or to have moved there before the age of 18.

So no, to answer your question Mo Botha should not have been eligible in my opinion but Brad, Mako and Billy would all be fine.

 
Re: England in Argentina
NickL (IP Logged)
21 April, 2017 09:47
Qualifying via residency is fine, certainly for those who moved as children, but three years is too short and encourages 'project players'. The RFU is currently pushing World Rugby for an increase to five years; they should practise what they preach, like the French are.

I'm not happy with rugby league internationals switching countries (particularly if they don't have family connections). The two sports are similar enough that the same rules should apply as if they have represented the country's nominated 'A' team.

 
Re: England in Argentina
King Zak (IP Logged)
21 April, 2017 09:49
Quote:
mk-fez
Quote:
King Zak
Does Isiekwe's inclusion mean he won't be in the U20 World Cup squad? I think the England tour starts pretty much as that tournament finishes. I certainly hope he's there!

Sadly the JWC runs from 31st May to 18th June in Tblisi, Georgia, and Nick will miss that when he's with England in Argentina. I am amazed at his call-up btw.

That is a real shame,, same or the Curry twins too. I think that all three may be eligible for next year's tournament though, so perhaps that's the plan???



Nous sommes l'armée noir et rouge !

 
Re: England in Argentina
Adey (IP Logged)
21 April, 2017 16:33
Billy and Mako should have been playing for Wales by that reasoning then.

 
Re: England in Argentina
Adey (IP Logged)
21 April, 2017 17:23
JOG, if Roko had been killed/ injured fighting for the British Army in Afghanistan would he not count because he came here as an adult?

 
Re: England in Argentina
Jim 55 (IP Logged)
21 April, 2017 19:14
Roko took the Queens shilling with the express objective of obtaining citizenship along with many others over the years so yes he should be available. The residency rule is ridiculous, if you have no 'real' ties to the country why should you be eligible to play for them.


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
We record all IP addresses on the Sportnetwork message boards which may be required by the authorities in case of defamatory or abusive comment. We seek to monitor the Message Boards at regular intervals. We do not associate Sportnetwork with any of the comments and do not take responsibility for any statements or opinions expressed on the Message Boards. If you have any cause for concern over any material posted here please let us know as soon as possible by e-mailing abuse@sportnetwork.net
 
 

Who is online?

Total users online:  

Most users online:  

Users on this site:  

Where are they?