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Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
Barty II (IP Logged)
30 June, 2017 07:57
BBC Article

The beeb are reporting that Cheetas & Kings are set to join the Pro12. Weighing it up I think this will probably be a good thing for all the clubs in that league provided the problems with travel. One solution that the article mentions is the clubs playing some of their games of England with the "Allianz Arena" PARK suggested as a venue. Imagine it would be a good money spinner for us but with logistics and local restrictions I can't see it happening... thoughts?

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
King Zak (IP Logged)
30 June, 2017 08:22
Certainly a very interesting move! That would make for a good away trip in the Champions Cup. Given the apparent financial situation of the Pro 12 teams I assume that the SA teams would have to pay for the current lot to travel for the 'away' games.



Nous sommes l'armée noir et rouge !

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
Duncan96 (IP Logged)
30 June, 2017 16:09
It would, as a local, be great to have these teams playing down the road but I thought one of the reasons we have to endure the London Double Header is that there is a restriction on the number of events which can be staged at AP, meaning that if we didn't move one of our home games, we might be at risk of not being able to stage a Premiership semi or European qtr final there. Maybe there are moves to push for more games at AP having shown that Saracens cause minimal disruption in the area

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
Quin Kong (IP Logged)
30 June, 2017 19:12
I thought you were limited to 15 home matches per season with one allowed to expand capacity to 15k and no Friday or Sunday night games? Was I wrong?



QUIN KONG

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
Highbury Saracen (IP Logged)
30 June, 2017 19:16
No I think you are right QK thats why we do LDH & Wembley



Double Champions of Europe,we know who we are!! smiling smiley

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
King Zak (IP Logged)
01 July, 2017 09:24
Are we limited to number of games, or game days? No reason we couldn't have two games on the same day.



Nous sommes l'armée noir et rouge !

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
Jim 55 (IP Logged)
01 July, 2017 10:26
Quote:
King Zak
Are we limited to number of games, or game days? No reason we couldn't have two games on the same day.

That would be a pleasant day...

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
Quin Kong (IP Logged)
01 July, 2017 10:36
So four sets of supporters? Just don't think you have the infrastructure or season tickets would be insane prices.



QUIN KONG

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
The Bard (IP Logged)
01 July, 2017 11:00
But you'd be talking about fans who would mostly be traveling a long way, so 10k might be enough.

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
Quin Kong (IP Logged)
01 July, 2017 11:56
so including Sarries supporters, the oppo support. The SA support and their oppo support you don't think 10k is a bit small ? Plus I doubt you could hotseat season tickets so how do you allocate seats ?



QUIN KONG

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
The Bard (IP Logged)
01 July, 2017 13:06
Don't think season tickets would come into it as it wouldn't be on anyone's home ground

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
04 July, 2017 13:24
Quote:
Quin Kong
I thought you were limited to 15 home matches per season with one allowed to expand capacity to 15k and no Friday or Sunday night games? Was I wrong?

We are not allowed Friday nights because it would make the North Circular even worse!

Not sure about Sunday restrictions. Can't see anyone wanting a Sunday night game amyway.



£630.67 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2016.

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
Sara'sman (IP Logged)
04 July, 2017 18:03
My initial reaction was that there is no way this could happen quickly and I was doubtful it would ever. Seems I'm wrong as there have been several follow up articles. What will be the effect on the Anglo-Welsh cup? The welsh will have no weekends free (apart from European KO weeks), unless I'm missing something.

I know it's an unpopular competition with many but I think it serves its purpose well - rest for those who need it, games for wider squad players and a good route back for those recovering from injuries.

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
Quin Kong (IP Logged)
04 July, 2017 21:49
There were rumours of an expanded A league at the end of last season. I suspect this may not have been much of a surprise and plans have been in place for a while.



QUIN KONG

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
15 July, 2017 09:57
Quote:
King Zak
Are we limited to number of games, or game days? No reason we couldn't have two games on the same day.


Strictly speaking the wording is a restriction on the number of games. Those games to be played on Saturday or Sunday.

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
15 July, 2017 10:02
So, by all accounts it looks like this is going ahead and the Cheetahs and Lions will join the Pro 12.

What seems very unclear to me is qualification for the ECC. Seems to be conveniently overlooking the tiny detail that the 'E' stands for European!

Haven't found any detail on this yet, so if anybody has then please do share.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 15/07/2017 10:05 by GazzaFez.

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
Waldo (IP Logged)
15 July, 2017 10:05
I guess they are in a European League so that probably covers it possibly.

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
King Zak (IP Logged)
15 July, 2017 22:16
Quote:
Waldo
I guess they are in a European League so that probably covers it possibly.

Hmm, haven't read anything about this but my immediate thought is that they wouldn't be involved in the ERC as it would create an imbalance in the number of teams. Unless the Celtic nations (plus Italy) were prepared to give up one of their places!!



Nous sommes l'armée noir et rouge !

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
Seany_Boy0511 (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 07:35
This is an interesting move alright, I guess the pro 12 is now the pro 14? or have they diched the Italian Teams?

Secondly I'm not sure why they would do this... Are people going to travel to south Africa for an away club fixture.... Possibly possibly not,

Thirdly the SA teams are going to have to adapt to winter Rugby... So the ECC qualification may be interesting as it's not obvious the SA teams will even qualify,

Finally why has this happened...??

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
AlanE (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 08:15
Quote:
Seany_Boy0511
Finally why has this happened...??

The overt reason is that Super Rugby has reduced the number of franchises by [3?] - two South African and 1 Australian I think.

So these two were looking at extinction or going somewhere else. It is easier for them to play here (time zone) than for the Aussies.

I am sure there has been more going on under the covers and this might not be the most important reason.



I was 17 miles from Graybridge before I was caught by the school leopard

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
Gryff (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 09:14
I've heard the SA TV rights quoted at £10m so there's a very big reason.

Lot f excitement in SA over this and thoughts better players my gravitate towards these clubs

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
Dolph42 (IP Logged)
17 July, 2017 09:16
I think this is an interesting experiment by the SA clubs. There is increased commercial and playing appeal moving to the Pro 12 (14?) and I wonder if it will be the prelude to the major SA names moving to these two clubs to reduce the travel burden and raise their profiles (all matches will be played at SA friendly times). If that does happen SA could withdraw from Super Rugby.

ECC qualification of the top 7 in the Pro 12 was agreed before it became 14 so I'd imagine that EPCR will have to confirm the qualification criteria once they are admitted.

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
17 July, 2017 10:59
Definitely a toe in the water type deal for the Saffas to see if the friendlier KO times help the TV audiences.

If they do, then an eventual move to European fixtures does make more sense - they currently play teams in Buenos Aires and Tokyo as well as Australasia so the travel is terrible for them already.

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
JO'G (IP Logged)
18 July, 2017 20:15
I thought the Pro12 were moving towards the top 7 qualifying for the ERC anyway and removing the country quotas. If that happens, its an easy move to admit 2 morehsides even if they are Saffas

I also read that they were looking to play less than half their 'home; games in Europe. Staying here for 22 days playing 3 away and one home games before going back to SA for 2 actual home games before returning to repeat the process. The general idea is that 2 Pro 12 teams then go to SA for 8 days and play both their away games in one trip

They then make 4 round trips to Europe - stopping off in Italy on the way for one of those



Park team from London
Just a park team from London
European Champions
Just European champions

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
Brighty_Fez (IP Logged)
19 July, 2017 12:13
under the proposal they want to split the league into 2 groups of 7 so teams would only play 1 of the south african teams

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
Barnesy (IP Logged)
19 July, 2017 14:13
Bit more info in here favoured format looks like.

2 7 team groups play each other home and away (12 Games)

Play each team from the other group once (7 Games)

Home and away "Rivalry" games eg. Scotland teams against each other (2 Games)

21 Game season then playoffs

1st in group straight to semi finals

2nd plays 3rd from the other group for the other semi final spots

South African teams DO NOT qualify for Champions Cup even if they win pro14

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
Pimpernel44 (IP Logged)
19 July, 2017 14:22
Quote:
GazzaFez
Strictly speaking the wording is a restriction on the number of games.

IIRC the restriction is on the number of "major events", defined according to maximum attendance. Again IIRC the threshold is something like 3,000 or 3,500. Would more than 3,000 people turn up to watch, say, Cheetahs vs. Dragons at AzP? Probably not.

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
Seany_Boy0511 (IP Logged)
20 July, 2017 06:07
Quote:
Barnesy
Bit more info in here favoured format looks like.
2 7 team groups play each other home and away (12 Games)

Play each team from the other group once (7 Games)

Home and away "Rivalry" games eg. Scotland teams against each other (2 Games)

21 Game season then playoffs

1st in group straight to semi finals

2nd plays 3rd from the other group for the other semi final spots

South African teams DO NOT qualify for Champions Cup even if they win pro14




Sounds interesting but completely pointless nfor the SA teams if they have no European rugby to play for (where I believe they would be truly tested)

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
AlanE (IP Logged)
20 July, 2017 06:24
It sounds to me like a transitional arrangement. No entry to ECC initially but that wouldn't be sustained if the arrangement was successful in sporting and financial terms.



I was 17 miles from Graybridge before I was caught by the school leopard

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
20 July, 2017 07:29
If the SA teams are not allowed to join the European competitions (don't forget there are two) does it spell out who would take their place should the SA teams top the Pro12/14?

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
Sara'sman (IP Logged)
30 July, 2017 11:41
5 "home" games to be played in England is my guess. Three for one team, two the other. And I'd suggest Quins (or Ealing, capacity 3k) more likely than us to tap into the London Saffers and avoid our limit on large events.

I've been trying to find more detail on the arrangements - I remain staggered that the logistics are considered manageable, but apart from the above and a Wales Online suggestion that each region will benefit by £500k I can find none.

My thinking is that sides travelling to South Africa will play both opponents on consecutive weekends. But one SA team will play 3 opponents at home only, the other a different two. I can't see these European sides travelling to SA for just one game.

Pool 1: R1, R2, W1, W2, S1, T1, A1
Pool 2: R3, R4, W3, W4, S2, T2, A2

The SA derby will be preserved leaving (A1) to play either S2 or T2 both home and away, the remaining 5 teams in Pool 2 only once - 3/2 at home/away.

[Apologies for edit - my tablet crashes/poor battery so I save periodically]

Their season will be as follows if similar to the Premiership:

6,CC,1,AW,3,CC,3,CC,AW,4,AW,1,C,2,C,1+Q,C,SF

Thus the first block of 6 could see:

A1: A,Glasgow H, Munster H, A, h, A ... where h is at home in England
A2: A,A, Glasgow H, Munster H, A, h

Can anyone suggest how they will deal with the following logistical issues?

How can the Saffere field a fair, consistent side. The Currie Cup runs till 14/10 with the semi and final to follow, the Rugby Championship from 19/8 to 7/10. Does this mean their first few sides will be weak when the Europeans will be strong, and vica versa.

The Saffers will have 14 fallow weeks during their season (and play at least 6 fewer hard CC games). They will be well rested or undercooked depending on the number of consecutive weeks missed. Might they join the AW? After all the last 2 sets of AW fixtures were announced on 26 and 25 July!

One benefit may be a harmonising of refereeing interpretations between the hemispheres as there will be greater exposure to referees from a different culture.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 30/07/2017 13:58 by Sara'sman.

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
The Bard (IP Logged)
30 July, 2017 13:18
It's no different from the travel in super rugby

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
Sara'sman (IP Logged)
30 July, 2017 14:17
Quote:
The Bard
It's no different from the travel in super rugby

Agreed. I was attempting to develop the little bit of information that we do have - potential games in England. I also think the Saffers are keen to reduce travel (not just time zones) and can't see the Celts not reducing costs wherever feasible.

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
Quin Kong (IP Logged)
31 July, 2017 13:39
Having thought about it, I somehow doubt the RFU will allow the games to be played in England. As an out of the box thought Holland might be more viable.



QUIN KONG

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
Waldo (IP Logged)
31 July, 2017 14:35
How about Brussels - good for a rugby weekend away :-)

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
mrangry (IP Logged)
31 July, 2017 17:10
Brussels would help rugby sprout outside the usual areas

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
Waldo (IP Logged)
31 July, 2017 19:59
Agree Mr Angry - it's pretty much a green field out there .

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
mk-fez (IP Logged)
01 August, 2017 11:56
Pro14 confirmed: [www.bbc.co.uk]

The SA sides will play at home, not at AzP, two conferences of seven sides, each with x1 SA, x1 Italian, x1 Scottish, x2 Welsh and x2 Irish.

 
Re: Saffers in Pro12 - At Allianz?
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
02 August, 2017 09:04
Quote:
Sara
How can the Saffere field a fair, consistent side. The Currie Cup runs till 14/10 with the semi and final to follow, the Rugby Championship from 19/8 to 7/10. Does this mean their first few sides will be weak when the Europeans will be strong, and vica versa.

The Saffers will have 14 fallow weeks during their season (and play at least 6 fewer hard CC games). They will be well rested or undercooked depending on the number of consecutive weeks missed. Might they join the AW? After all the last 2 sets of AW fixtures were announced on 26 and 25 July!

One benefit may be a harmonising of refereeing interpretations between the hemispheres as there will be greater exposure to referees from a different culture.[/quote



As I understand it, the franchises will continue to enjoy superiority over the Provinces whem it comes to selection, so the clash with the Currie Cup will not weaken them. This means that the Currie Cup won't be distorted by contrasting availability criteria.



£630.67 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2016.


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