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Re: Saracens v Barf
Highbury Saracen (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 20:11
On a lighter note I will never criticise our announcer at AZP again!
The guy at the rec reminded me of oirish bloke.....very embarrassing & the P A was sh1te!



Double Champions of Europe,we know who we are!! smiling smiley

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 20:59
Quote:
Quin Kong
The scrum half was perfectly entitled to pass where he wanted.

No one has at any time disputed that. What you are not getting, is that to do so in those circumstances was completely unsportsmanlike. You either understand that or you don't understand the ethos of rugby....hopefully that is not yet lost forever despite professionalism.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Adey (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 07:48
If that was the 80th minute of a European cup final and the scores were level, would it be ok for a Sarries player to do the same?

Be honest with your answers.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Roger G (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 08:10
Quote:
Adey
If that was the 80th minute of a European cup final and the scores were level, would it be ok for a Sarries player to do the same?
Be honest with your answers.

Honestly? No, I'd be embarrassed talking to friends who are supporters of other clubs if that happened. Thankfully it didn't decide the outcome in this case and the match was, deservedly, won by Bath.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Essex-Sarrie (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 08:37
I would be very disappointed if I ever see a Sarrie act like that whether it was the first minute or crucial last minute penalty.

As I said Bath deserved to win no doubt about it, the pressure they played with in the first half was superb. Just a shame that a small incident is staying in the mind of some.

Quin Kong - Scrum half can pass where he likes but its only offside if they are impeding a run or pass which he was not.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
P G Tips (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 09:27
If the "ethos of rugby" is a concern, you will of course examine the mote in Saracen's own eye just as closely? smiling smiley

PG

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Wayoutwest (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 11:17
I am going to have to look that one up PG as I have not come across that one before.

Let me just check on the interweb...

The Oxford Dictionary of Phrase and Fable 2006, originally published by Oxford University Press 2006. mote in a person's eye, a a fault observed in another person by a person who ignores a greater fault of his or her own; a mote is an irritating particle in the eye, and the allusion is to Matthew 7:3.

So...now we have established that....What's your point again?

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
P G Tips (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 11:27
The "ethos of rugby" is a broad accusation Wayoutwest.

I accept that what KF did was gamesmanship.

Can you put hand on heart and say no Saracens player in the match did anything unsporting or that could be described as "gamesmanship"?

PG

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Wayoutwest (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 12:03
Probably not PG but there are visible levels that go beyond what is acceptable I suppose. For example dark arts at the breakdown are usually not spotted by the average fans. However, very visible gamesmanship by any side has to be criticised.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Essex-Sarrie (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 12:41
Quote:
Wayoutwest
Probably not PG but there are visible levels that go beyond what is acceptable I suppose. For example dark arts at the breakdown are usually not spotted by the average fans. However, very visible gamesmanship by any side has to be criticised.

All teams get up to mischief in and around the breakdown no one denies that but we are talking about a very specific incident that players at all levels and ages are told not to do because its against the spirit of the game and against what rugby is all about.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Barty II (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 13:11
As a Sarries fan, I can accept the point made during the BT commentary, that our roars of celebration and back-slapping when we force a penalty that are designed to fire up our own players can also be seen as a bit antagonistic and disrespectful in some cases - quite possibly against the "ethos of rugby".

While I consider K.F.s penalty engineering to be a far more blatant "transgression" I think both cases that the ethos of rugby is by no means a black and white issue, every club is at fault now and then, and every club also does many things to promote the correct behaviour on the whole.

Yes, I think that that a level-headed Bath fan should be a bit embarrassed by the incident (as would I if it was the other way round), but it shouldn't be used as part of a silly "Holier-than-though" battle between clubs. Healthy discussion on the ever-developing rules of the game, fair enough - personally I think this week highlights the need for more referee discretion on the rules to deter a deliberate attempt to gain penalty points.

But as Saracens fans we'll embarrass ourselves by moaning about one incident of unfairness when we should be crediting a brilliant Bath performance (as most of us thankfully seem to be doing).

Much the same way as we get bored of opposition fans whinging about us spending several billion over the salary cap every time we beat them, or getting slated when our head coach makes a point about having to pay big money to provide home-grown talent to the pool of English players.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Essex-Sarrie (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 13:27
Quote:
Barty II
As a Sarries fan, I can accept the point made during the BT commentary, that our roars of celebration and back-slapping when we force a penalty that are designed to fire up our own players can also be seen as a bit antagonistic and disrespectful in some cases - quite possibly against the "ethos of rugby".
While I consider K.F.s penalty engineering to be a far more blatant "transgression" I think both cases that the ethos of rugby is by no means a black and white issue, every club is at fault now and then, and every club also does many things to promote the correct behaviour on the whole.

Yes, I think that that a level-headed Bath fan should be a bit embarrassed by the incident (as would I if it was the other way round), but it shouldn't be used as part of a silly "Holier-than-though" battle between clubs. Healthy discussion on the ever-developing rules of the game, fair enough - personally I think this week highlights the need for more referee discretion on the rules to deter a deliberate attempt to gain penalty points.

But as Saracens fans we'll embarrass ourselves by moaning about one incident of unfairness when we should be crediting a brilliant Bath performance (as most of us thankfully seem to be doing).

Much the same way as we get bored of opposition fans whinging about us spending several billion over the salary cap every time we beat them, or getting slated when our head coach makes a point about having to pay big money to provide home-grown talent to the pool of English players.

Barty you've just smashed the nail straight on the head. Your work has been completed.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Barty II (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 13:41
Quote:
Essex-Sarrie
Barty you've just smashed the nail straight on the head. Your work has been completed.

Suppose I'll have to get back to my day job now. (Sm117)

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
#wolfpack (IP Logged)
12 September, 2017 13:48
It was cheap and grimey.

But the reason we lost the game was because we missed 5 tackles - 2 on Louw and 3 on Rokoduguni, not because Fotouali'i is a t1t, so really it isn't that important.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Which Tyler (IP Logged)
13 September, 2017 04:56
Out of interest - here's a screen grab
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=382
Are you guys seriously suggesting that Brits isn't stationary (as opposed to busting a lung to get out of the way), making a relatively large target (as opposed to being flat on the ground) right in the passing line between Fotuali'i and Joseph/Garvey - where Bath have a 4 on 2 with Joseph shouting for the ball (as has been spotted by Maro) and Faletau in the wing position?

We've all seen SHs do this sort of thing before, and it's always unedifying; and has never led to a rash of these things happening.
Personally though, I reserve my scorn for when the offside player isn't interfering with play, or has made every effort to get out of the way.
Had Brits backpedalled or accelerated when he saw Khan change direction, then that would have been one thing; had he laid himself flat to the ground, then again, that'd be different; but presenting a large, stationary obstruction in the passing lane... I won't blame any SH for milking the penalty.

FTR I disagree with Malco that Kahn went left because of Koch being in the way - it's blatantly being called by both Joseph and Priestland.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 13/09/2017 05:41 by Which Tyler.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
JO'G (IP Logged)
13 September, 2017 06:44
Quote:
#wolfpack
It was cheap and grimey.
But the reason we lost the game was because we missed 5 tackles - 2 on Louw and 3 on Rokoduguni, not because Fotouali'i is a t1t, so really it isn't that important.

totally agree with this

I'm not so worried we lost out on 1 point because we were playing for the win and threw an interception. I'm worried because we were totally in control of the game on 77 minutes. We were not drilling to the corners but still trying to play rugby. There is a time when our tag of 'boring, boring Sarries' needs to be earnt



Park team from London
Just a park team from London
European Champions
Just European champions

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Highbury Saracen (IP Logged)
13 September, 2017 10:20
No matter how hard I look I cant see the 2' 6 player the scrum half is passing to!! smiling smiley



Double Champions of Europe,we know who we are!! smiling smiley

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Which Tyler (IP Logged)
13 September, 2017 11:16
Yes, he threw the pass low to milk the penalty - no-one's claimed otherwise. However, you can clearly see Brits making a obstacle of himself where he's not supposed to be.

If you're offisde in the passing lane, then you're just asking to be penalised.
Had Kahn done the same to Koch, who's not in the passing lane, and not obstructing the desired play - then I'd have full agreement with you.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Essex-Sarrie (IP Logged)
13 September, 2017 12:35
Quote:
Which Tyler
Yes, he threw the pass low to milk the penalty - no-one's claimed otherwise. However, you can clearly see Brits making a obstacle of himself where he's not supposed to be.
If you're offisde in the passing lane, then you're just asking to be penalised.
Had Kahn done the same to Koch, who's not in the passing lane, and not obstructing the desired play - then I'd have full agreement with you.

I appreciate your point but what you seem to be missing is the fact your petulant scrumhalf milked a penalty throwing the ball at an offside player at a whole two foot in stature rather than throwing a pass to JJ or Garvey when you had a 4 on 2 and opportunity for a try?

You can see the ball in your screenshot, please tell me who is receiving that pass? It embarrassing a player of his quality hasn't played the pass and gone for the opportunity.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Which Tyler (IP Logged)
13 September, 2017 13:18
OK - so your argument now is that Khan opted to take the safe 3 points over the risky 5/7 whilst in extra time?

Incidentally, I also had a second look at the wider view, and played the sequence through a few times; Itoje has JJ lined up ready to take him man-and-ball if at all possible; and Goode is already running across; so more like a 4 on 3, looking likely to be stopped at source.

IMO if you make a cynical play that can result in a penalty against you, you don't have the right to complain about it when the ref pings you for a penalty.
IMO had Brits actually made an attempt to get out of the way (as opposed to cynically putting himself in the way) then I would join you in castigating Fotuali'i



A man who cannot change his mind, cannot change anythinghttp://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=377
RAEBURN SHIELD

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
JO'G (IP Logged)
13 September, 2017 21:11
if my memory serves, Fotuali'i played at Saints where his scrum-half mentor (who thank god is now at Bedford where I won't see him again) is the most blatant instigator of milking penalties in the Premiership, or indeed any form of rugby.

Fotuali'i could not help it; he has been trained in the dark arts by a master.

This is no criticism of Bath who fully deserved to win the game or of their coaches who seem to play straight and fair.



Park team from London
Just a park team from London
European Champions
Just European champions

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Seany_Boy0511 (IP Logged)
14 September, 2017 08:59
It's a daft argument, Brits is offside clearly, yes KF has clearly milked the penalty, but unless the law changes the scrum half will win the penalty, regardless of gamesmanship or not, yes bath deserves to win they were better on the day, let's focus on Newcastle in Philly now and get back to winning ways!

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
The Bard (IP Logged)
14 September, 2017 09:18
So Britsy isn't the Messiah, just a very naughty boy!

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Huxley (IP Logged)
14 September, 2017 09:47
Quote:
Seany_Boy0511
It's a daft argument, Brits is offside clearly, yes KF has clearly milked the penalty, but unless the law changes the scrum half will win the penalty, regardless of gamesmanship or not, yes bath deserves to win they were better on the day, let's focus on Newcastle in Philly now and get back to winning ways!

This +1

You win some, you lose some. It's down to ref interpretation, Owens didn't give Clermont a pen when Parra did the same, Barnes did. It's the letter of the law. If We'd played better it wouldn't have been an issue. Congrats to Bath on a well deserved victory. It might be the result we need to stop any complacency setting in.

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