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Saracens v Barf
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 14:28
8-0 so far.
We are gifting Barf with loads of uncharacteristic unforced errors. At least half a dozen so far.
Must tighten up on that.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 14:34
Loz misses an easy penalty. Only 4 out of 9 last week....it will matter a lot more this week.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
derbyshire fan (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 14:44
bloody gamesmanship by Bath at the end of the first half; really really not the way to play rugby

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 14:46
Real cheap shot by their scrum half. Brits not happy at all. Very surprised that Wayne Barnes played along with it.
14-0 now.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
WiseWasps! (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 14:48
Gamesmanship.

Itoje!

Salary cap!

Mic drop!

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Huxley (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 14:52
Loz and Earle having a shocker. Bath deservedly winning this. I hope Sanderson is having some half time words...

P.s
Don't feed the trolls..

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Sara'sman (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 15:01
I think Barnes had two better options open to him. Penalty to Sarries and the warning of a card for deliberately throwing the ball at an opponent, or, I think, accidental offside - scrum Bath. None of which should take away from Bath's deserved lead - accurate in attack, strong in defence whilst we're playing dry weather rugby.

Not over yet!

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 15:06
Another unforced error by Loz. Having a mare today.
No time for hurt feelings. Bring Faz on asap.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 15:23
Faz and Mako on. Instant impact.
Penalty try to Sarries. Barf deliberately collapsed driving maul on the line.
17-13.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Adey (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 15:59
Quote:
Sara'sman
I think Barnes had two better options open to him. Penalty to Sarries and the warning of a card for deliberately throwing the ball at an opponent, or, I think, accidental offside - scrum Bath. None of which should take away from Bath's deserved lead - accurate in attack, strong in defence whilst we're playing dry weather rugby.
Not over yet!

Are either of those in the laws? I don't think so.

It's a dick move and no one likes to see it but it is a law.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
King Zak (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 16:01
Disappointing to lose having fought back so well in the second half but that was brilliant from Roko



Nous sommes l'armée noir et rouge !

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Which Tyler (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 16:05
What a fantastic game of rugby, for the neutral and for the biased. One of those which is always a real shame that 1 team has to lose.
Feel for you guys, but you played a full part in an early contender for match of the season.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Sara'sman (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 16:11
Quote:
Adey
Quote:
Sara'sman
I think Barnes had two better options open to him. Penalty to Sarries and the warning of a card for deliberately throwing the ball at an opponent, or, I think, accidental offside - scrum Bath. None of which should take away from Bath's deserved lead - accurate in attack, strong in defence whilst we're playing dry weather rugby.
Not over yet!

Are either of those in the laws? I don't think so.

It's a dick move and no one likes to see it but it is a law.

It has been years since I last read the laws and expanded explanations but the second certainly was and I believe the first still is - as a referee's interpretation of a player's action.

But ultimately its simply well done Bath. They rode the storm, showed strength in defence and exploited our failings. I thought we'd deservedly nicked it but poor 7/22 play gave Roko the sniff he needed. Well played Bath.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
OldMarovian (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 16:25
So close. How often have we seen Mako complete that sort of pass? frustrating but Bath deserved winners in the end. Certainly positives to take from the game but lots to work on too.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 16:39
Can't complain about that at all. I do feel we contributed to the result significantly by the number of unforced errors though. We had the win in our hands but threw it away...literally unfortunately.

It's pretty clear where the weaknesses are so it will be interesting to see if MMc makes changes for next week. I'm guessing he would have done anyway to ease the rest of the squad back in.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
#wolfpack (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 16:40
Think we'll see a v strong side next week- don't really want to be 1/3

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
wolfgangvonb77 (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 17:05
Well played Bath, we looked off the boil today too many errors and I'm worried about Loz's kicking. I'm sure we will improve in the coming weeks, Bath were hungry and really went for it. let's hope for another great game when we cross swords again.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Highbury Saracen (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 17:25
Mako is sat next to us boater pub atmoment!



Double Champions of Europe,we know who we are!! smiling smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/09/2017 11:17 by Highbury Saracen.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
OldMarovian (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 17:46
Quote:
Highbury Saracen
Mako is sat next to us boater pub att moment!

Don't ask him to pass your pint some Bath chap might nick it!

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Which Tyler (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 18:28
Quote:
OldMarovian
Quote:
Highbury Saracen
Mako is sat next to us boater pub att moment!

Don't ask him to pass your pint some Bath chap might nick it!
These boards don't have a "LIKE" button, so... here's one I made earlier
http://www.rugbyrebels.co/board/download/file.php?id=267



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2017 18:35 by Which Tyler.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
King Zak (IP Logged)
09 September, 2017 19:23
If it was a poor day for Saracens, it was a shocker for Clermont (and some team from the East Midlands 0/2)



Nous sommes l'armée noir et rouge !

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
The Bard (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 07:58
Unbelievably complacent and careless in the first half, no intensity or line speed. Vastly better in the second half but we had enough chances to put the game to bed. Really disappointed how the scrum went considering the number of props Bath are missing.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
villagesarrie (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 08:22
It is one game but we were disappointed with Loz - his kicking seems to have deteriorated. However, most seasons recently we seem to have a couple of games where our nous and game management go missing. Hopefully, we've got one of those out of the way (and won't have another for a good while). Bath were just better and their defence was excellent.One Bath poster made a good point - we didn't really get tested last week against Saints (although to be fair to Saints, in the second half when they tightened up, we didn't do so well) and he hoped we'd be off the boil as a result and he was right.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
southgate (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 08:30
Great game ,could have gone either way ,I thought at half time that Saracens would come out fighting and they did.Who is your loose head because I don't think he can scrummage,his position is all wrong with his legs too far back.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
#wolfpack (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 09:23
Loz does need to sharpen up his kicking asap. Wiggy might be one of the best around, but is there an argument for Spenno playing with loz if the kicking issues persist because then at least we're guaranteed some points? Or is that too much inexperience in the half backs?

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Roger G (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 09:30
Quote:
#wolfpack
Loz does need to sharpen up his kicking asap. Wiggy might be one of the best around, but is there an argument for Spenno playing with loz if the kicking issues persist because then at least we're guaranteed some points? Or is that too much inexperience in the half backs?

Or just let Goodey take the kicks at goal.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Highbury Saracen (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 11:20
Think the squad is flying out to USA today and I would expect a strong side to play against Falcons!
Thought we really missed Marcello against Bath



Double Champions of Europe,we know who we are!! smiling smiley

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 11:31
I watched the recording of the last 15 minutes again last night. Horrible echoes of the away semi at Chiefs last season! A classic case of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Loz's missed penalty in front of the posts quite early on in the game was a defining moment and Barf seemed to be energised after that.

No messing about with selection next week.....strongest possible team for me including Billy....assuming medically fit of course.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
The Bard (IP Logged)
10 September, 2017 13:46
Our only consolation was that we could have got even wetter...

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
#wolfpack (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 08:45
I agree with the above - Newcastle is a bit of a banana skin and would like to see the A team out next week, and then look to rotate against Sale at home.

Another shout out for Nick Isikwe who again looked very good when he came on.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
TOKS (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 13:30
We didn't play well, Bath certainly did, yet we were only one missed hands in the ruck penalty during the final play from drawing the game (or even going to the corner now there's a "final" final play). So it could be worse, but we certainly need to reduce the error count and perhaps make more allowance for the prevailing weather conditions.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
TOKS (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 13:45
Quote:
Adey
Quote:
Sara'sman
I think Barnes had two better options open to him. Penalty to Sarries and the warning of a card for deliberately throwing the ball at an opponent, or, I think, accidental offside - scrum Bath. None of which should take away from Bath's deserved lead - accurate in attack, strong in defence whilst we're playing dry weather rugby.
Not over yet!

Are either of those in the laws? I don't think so.

It's a dick move and no one likes to see it but it is a law.

It's entirely possible that I've imagined this (!) but does the referee not have some discretionary powers when it's obvious that the SH is not intending to pass the ball to a team mate and merely trying to hit a player with the ball who he knows is retreating (as on Saturday)?

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
primavesi (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 13:47
Last season we got into an unfortunate habit of starting matches very slowly. We generally got away with it and we know how strong our bench is but eventually it is going to be costly. I do not know if this is possible but it would be interesting to see some stats on what % of 1st halves we lost compared to what % of 2nd halves and matches overall. It can only be a mental thing and knowing the team´s relentless drive to improve I am sure it is something they are thinking about.

In the space of a week we have put in one of the best 40 minutes of rugby I have seen us play and then a week later one of the worst.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
malco (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 13:58
I know this won't necessarily be a popular opinion to express here but I think Britz was as culpable for the situation as Fotuali'i was. He was retreating slowly, very deliberately, to disrupt fast ball. Savvy, every top flight player does it, but equally as much gamesmanship as for the scrum half to fire the ball at him. He ducked down because he had been caught. That moment was a pretty poor advert for what was an outstanding game of rugby, but if Britz hadn't been there Fotuali'i wouldn't have been able to milk the penalty.

as
Quote:
TOKS
Quote:
Adey
Quote:
Sara'sman
I think Barnes had two better options open to him. Penalty to Sarries and the warning of a card for deliberately throwing the ball at an opponent, or, I think, accidental offside - scrum Bath. None of which should take away from Bath's deserved lead - accurate in attack, strong in defence whilst we're playing dry weather rugby.
Not over yet!

Are either of those in the laws? I don't think so.

It's a dick move and no one likes to see it but it is a law.

It's entirely possible that I've imagined this (!) but does the referee not have some discretionary powers when it's obvious that the SH is not intending to pass the ball to a team mate and merely trying to hit a player with the ball who he knows is retreating (as on Saturday)?

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
TOKS (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 14:19
Not an unpopular view, Malco. There are usually two sides to every incident and there certainly were to that one. We just rarely see Scalla react in that manner.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Essex-Sarrie (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 14:56
Quote:
TOKS
Not an unpopular view, Malco. There are usually two sides to every incident and there certainly were to that one. We just rarely see Scalla react in that manner.

I agree Brits didn't really help himself but what fotuali'i done was straight out of the Lee Dickson buying penalties textbook.

I think what annoyed Brits was the fact that he took the ball to the right ran around the ruck to the left and came back to find Brits when he knew he was there and then fired the ball low at him. I was a pass to nobody so low no one could catch and go with it. Barnes is wise enough to say fotuali'i was playing for a cheap penalty and no allow him to do it.

Its a real shame because that little incident took the shine of a great performance from Bath in the first half.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
OldMarovian (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 15:15
Quote:
malco
I know this won't necessarily be a popular opinion to express here but I think Britz was as culpable for the situation as Fotuali'i was. He was retreating slowly, very deliberately, to disrupt fast ball. Savvy, every top flight player does it, but equally as much gamesmanship as for the scrum half to fire the ball at him. He ducked down because he had been caught. That moment was a pretty poor advert for what was an outstanding game of rugby, but if Britz hadn't been there Fotuali'i wouldn't have been able to milk the penalty.

Unpopular only that it bears little resemblance to what actually happened. Brits jogging back on the left side and Fotuali'i looking to play to the right (eyes, head and body shaped to go that way) then he checks right and switches and as soon as Brits sees the switch he crouches down to make any of the three or so passes Fotuali'i could have made possible. Arguable that Brits could have dropped flat but the idea that what he was doing was gamesmanship is nonsense whilst Fotuali'is move most obviously was.

The referee has the option to penalise unsportsmanlike conduct with sanctions up to and including a card. Maybe a Bath scrum as a restart and a warning to Fotuali'i not to indulge in such gamesmanship would have been a better outcome.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
malco (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 15:22
All that I would say is have a look back at the incident, take into consideration where on the field it took place and the alignment of the teams at that moment and ask yourself why Brits was jogging back looking at Fotuali'i rather than sprinting back to the defensive line and looking who to number up against. I'm certain he knew exactly what he was doing and that is not a criticism, that is an experienced and clever bit of spoiling coming from an experienced and clever player. I think he was angry because it cost three points,it was unnecessary and what he was trying to do was slow down a promising Bath attack rather than have the ball fired at him and give three precious points away.

Quote:
OldMarovian
Quote:
malco
I know this won't necessarily be a popular opinion to express here but I think Britz was as culpable for the situation as Fotuali'i was. He was retreating slowly, very deliberately, to disrupt fast ball. Savvy, every top flight player does it, but equally as much gamesmanship as for the scrum half to fire the ball at him. He ducked down because he had been caught. That moment was a pretty poor advert for what was an outstanding game of rugby, but if Britz hadn't been there Fotuali'i wouldn't have been able to milk the penalty.

Unpopular only that it bears little resemblance to what actually happened. Brits jogging back on the left side and Fotuali'i looking to play to the right (eyes, head and body shaped to go that way) then he checks right and switches and as soon as Brits sees the switch he crouches down to make any of the three or so passes Fotuali'i could have made possible. Arguable that Brits could have dropped flat but the idea that what he was doing was gamesmanship is nonsense whilst Fotuali'is move most obviously was.

The referee has the option to penalise unsportsmanlike conduct with sanctions up to and including a card. Maybe a Bath scrum as a restart and a warning to Fotuali'i not to indulge in such gamesmanship would have been a better outcome.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Sara'sman (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 15:28
I'm about to do something that I dislike whenever I see it done, so a huge caveat first! Simply quoting the laws can be rather selective as anyone who has done a refereeing course can confirm. It is the detail of the explanation of the nuances of the laws that is required - and that is part of the knowledge of a good referee. And Barnes is one of the very best.

However(!) reading the laws I believe that he did indeed have the two options I stated above available to him. Firstly, the definition of Law 10 includes "anything .... that is against the letter and spirit [surely should read or] of the Laws" and 10m - "Acts contrary to good sportsmanship" could, in my opinion, be used when a player deliberately throws the ball at an opponent, clearly not to a team mate.

Secondly 11.6m could be used to give a scrum for accidental offside - the offence does still exist!

As a rugby fan I believe I would be disappointed should the situation be reversed and Wigglesworth the culprit. Barnes said "It may be a poor law but it's the law". Is it?

Edit as quoting the above post went wrong!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2017 15:41 by Sara'sman.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Essex-Sarrie (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 15:30
I've watched it back a few times now, still can't see that its a penalty. Had Brits blocked a passing line then absolutely deserves to be punished as such.

He had eyes for the scrum half because he has to watch his line so he doesn't imped him, fotuali'i ran back on himself to find Brits.

The poor part for me is that Barnes is top ref he should know better. That pass is at the ground no one is playing on from it, its embarrassing. Its not sour grapes Bath were worth their victory and we wasn't on it from the off, don't see any need for that level of cheating the game when you're playing well.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
malco (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 15:37
Quote:
Essex-Sarrie
I've watched it back a few times now, still can't see that its a penalty. Had Brits blocked a passing line then absolutely deserves to be punished as such.
He had eyes for the scrum half because he has to watch his line so he doesn't imped him, fotuali'i ran back on himself to find Brits.

The poor part for me is that Barnes is top ref he should know better. That pass is at the ground no one is playing on from it, its embarrassing. Its not sour grapes Bath were worth their victory and we wasn't on it from the off, don't see any need for that level of cheating the game when you're playing well.

The reason he ran back on himself was that Vincent Koch was doing exactly the same thing on the openside! I think he then reacted petulantly in frustration. Not a great spectacle and not something to be proud of, but come on, both Koch and Brits were deliberately tracking back slowly between the scrum half and receiver on each side. Clever play and 99 times out of 100 they would get away with it. If Fotuali'i hadn't fired the ball at Brits it would have slowed down the attack and given Sarries time to reset the defence, which is exactly what they were hoping for.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
OldMarovian (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 15:54
Quote:
malco
The reason he ran back on himself was that Vincent Koch was doing exactly the same thing on the openside!

I am sorry but that's just not true. Koch actually stops as he sees Fotuali'i look up. He isn't impeding a pass to any Bath player on the openside. So you have two Sarries players one who checks his return to onside totally as he can see the scrum half looking to pass to that side and the other seeing the scrum half looking to the openside taking the opportunity to jog back onside. Neither is gamesmanship or trying to spoil Bath ball. The whole reason it's such sharp practice is that Brits ducking meant Fotuali'i could have played anyway he wished with no problem.

I totally accept that the sort of "lazy running" is part of the game and that Saracens players do it as much as any others but I don't think that's what you have here.

25 seconds in:






Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/09/2017 15:56 by OldMarovian.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
malco (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 16:08
OldMarovian, I fear we shall have to agree to disagree. Given the state of the game and the field position I am very certain that Fotuali'i would have far preferred to have fired the ball to our attscking line than settle for three milked points in an act of unprovoked gamesmanship.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Essex-Sarrie (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 16:14
Quote:
malco
OldMarovian, I fear we shall have to agree to disagree. Given the state of the game and the field position I am very certain that Fotuali'i would have far preferred to have fired the ball to our attscking line than settle for three milked points in an act of unprovoked gamesmanship.

Watch the video and tell me who that pass is to?

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
malco (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 16:36
I'm not arguing the point. He deliberately fired it at Brits, no question. Petulant and embarrassing. The point I'm making is that he did this out of frustration because Koch and Brits were deliberately trundling lazy lines to disrupt quick ball.

Quote:
Essex-Sarrie
Quote:
malco
OldMarovian, I fear we shall have to agree to disagree. Given the state of the game and the field position I am very certain that Fotuali'i would have far preferred to have fired the ball to our attscking line than settle for three milked points in an act of unprovoked gamesmanship.

Watch the video and tell me who that pass is to?

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 17:05
Malco...imagine if Brits had not been there, that pass would have gone straight into the ground! He is simply not that poor a scrum half; in fact he's a very good scrum half. I'm afraid the jury's not buying it! You won fair and square so don't try and justify a fleeting moment of poor sportsmanship and take the shine off a great win. Enjoy it!

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Quin Kong (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 17:31
I thought Brits is in an offside position. He shouldn't be there and so if he impedes the ball = penalty. Clever bit of quick thinking by the scrum-half.

Have to say you don't see it often but you do see them given. When you realise that refs don't seem to ping much for offside you'll milk it and sometimes you get caught bang to rights.



QUIN KONG

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 18:10
Quote:
Quin Kong
I thought Brits is in an offside position. He shouldn't be there and so if he impedes the ball = penalty. Clever bit of quick thinking by the scrum-half.
.

He only impeded the pass if the intention was to pass the ball hard into the ground. No one is buying that. The S/H was perfectly able to get the ball away to the receiver completely unobstructed. Time to move on.

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Highbury Saracen (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 18:46
I hope this doesnt lead to scrum halves up & down country doing same thing!



Double Champions of Europe,we know who we are!! smiling smiley

 
Re: Saracens v Barf
Quin Kong (IP Logged)
11 September, 2017 19:16
Quote:
GazzaFez
Quote:
Quin Kong
I thought Brits is in an offside position. He shouldn't be there and so if he impedes the ball = penalty. Clever bit of quick thinking by the scrum-half.
.

He only impeded the pass if the intention was to pass the ball hard into the ground. No one is buying that. The S/H was perfectly able to get the ball away to the receiver completely unobstructed. Time to move on.

That's not the point. He was in an offside position, the scrum half was perfectly entitled to pass where he wanted. You could almost make an argument that it should have been a yellow card to Brits for deliberate obstruction along the lines of a deliberate knock on, it was a penalty every day of the week and not worth dwelling on.



QUIN KONG

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