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EJ's MATCH DAY squad for Argentina game..
1876-Fez (IP Logged)
07 November, 2017 20:24
Down to 26..
Nick the only Saracen released...



Fullbacks
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Elliot Daly (Wasps), Jonny May (Leicester Tigers), Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

Inside backs
Danny Care (Harlequins), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Leicester Tigers), Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby), Alex Lozowski (Saracens), Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Forwards
Back five
Tom Curry (Sale Sharks), Nathan Hughes (Wasps), Maro Itoje (Saracens), George Kruis (Saracens), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby).

Front row
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers), Jamie George (Saracens), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs)



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/11/2017 12:44 by 1876-Fez.

 
Re: EJ's squad for Argentina game..
Squawker2 (IP Logged)
08 November, 2017 11:34
Loz retained, but I'd imagine Owen still to start



-----------------------------------------------------

Stuart Barnes is a Cock Womble

 
Re: EJ's squad for Argentina game..
Dolph42 (IP Logged)
08 November, 2017 11:41
Apparently Owen and Maro were held back from training yesterday, and not due to injury, so it might be due to them being rested this week. EJ will need to drop one full back (Roko is there to cover May's injury), one inside back (Owen?) and one back five (Maro?).

 
Re: EJ's squad for Argentina game..
BarnetSarrie (IP Logged)
08 November, 2017 13:32
So the clubs worst off are ourselves losing six players, including our Fly Half and Reserve fly half (if thats fair on Loz), as well as most of our pack, Tigers who lose 5 and Bath who lose 4. Quins & Wasps lose 3 apiece which is just about manageable and then Saints, Exeter and Sale lose 2 and 1 respectively. Falcons are unaffected as are Wuss, Glaws and Irish. It would be even more skewed if Billy were fit and selectable. Thank goodness Eddie doesnt like Goodey, or half the matchday 15 would be Saracens.

As I say, if you win, you lose, the way things are right now.
I wish they would sort this out more fairly. I want to be able to support England without having a bad taste in my mouth.

 
Re: EJ's squad for Argentina game..
Dolph42 (IP Logged)
08 November, 2017 13:42
Barnet - we've been the best side in Europe for over 2 years now so I don't think we lose at all. Missing out on the AP last season was caused by our run in the ECC and I know which I'd rather win.

We should be proud of the number of England players we have, and the benefits they bring. Arguably the two highest profile England players are Maro and Faz, this will directly correlate into support for the club. Secondly, England selection and training is furiously competitive, meaning those players will stop at nothing to keep on improving and driving standards when they're not with England, and that can only influence our other players, particularly the younger ones.

Having Loz involved with England is great for the club as he plays the most influential position on the field. Wouldn't you want him battle hardened in case Faz gets injured in April/May (the only time of the team which really counts)?

 
Re: EJ's squad for Argentina game..
Seany_Boy0511 (IP Logged)
08 November, 2017 17:55
This is a remarkable situation to be in, when I started following Saracens over 9 years ago I never imagined we would have over a third of the English national team, and the majority from our academy... I am extremely proud and I'm glad we have a true test during the AIs let's go and win the games against Exeter with our '2nd string' (used loosely as all are capable of being 1st team starters) team to prove how good Saracens really are

 
Re: EJ's squad for Argentina game..
Yorkie (IP Logged)
08 November, 2017 18:28
Quote:
Seany_Boy0511
This is a remarkable situation to be in, when I started following Saracens over 9 years ago I never imagined we would have over a third of the English national team


And back "over 9 years ago", who was providing the majority of the England squad?

Other teams and usually Tigers.

Providing players to the Invitational circus is all part of being successful I'm afraid. Got to just suck it up and stop complaining about it.

 
Re: EJ's squad for Argentina game..
Sara'sman (IP Logged)
08 November, 2017 19:11
Quote:
Yorkie
Got to just suck it up and stop complaining about it.

Somewhat ironic choice of words Yorkie since every time I dip into your board you seem to be leading the balcony in a flood of criticism of "the invitational circus" and everything to do with the "ah ef you" as many of you prefer.

I'd suggest it is perfectly possible for us to have a conversation about a relatively new issue that is increasingly causing us problems without the simplistic accusation of "complaining". But then attacking Sarries and Nigel Wray seems to be one of your favourite pastimes.

 
Re: EJ's squad for Argentina game..
Sarakene (IP Logged)
08 November, 2017 20:18
...and (let's be honest) one of the reasons that great players may be prepared to sign for us at less than their perceived "club market" rate is because they will earn the difference (and more) by playing for England/Wales/Scotland etc and winning things e.g. Loz not going to Exeter as advertised / Liam W. So let's not whinge at this time of year and instead celebrate having such a great squad (within the salary cap) and the potential to win a 3rd European honour.

 
Re: EJ's squad for Argentina game..
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 08:44
Looks like Maro and Faz will be rested for this game and Mako will be on the bench. I am very happy that Maro would now have had 3 extra weekends in a row to rest and Faz gets this extra week off. I expect both to start next week and then get the Samoa game off also

 
Re: EJ's squad for Argentina game..
Seany_Boy0511 (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 11:56
Quote:
Yorkie
Quote:
Seany_Boy0511
This is a remarkable situation to be in, when I started following Saracens over 9 years ago I never imagined we would have over a third of the English national team


And back "over 9 years ago", who was providing the majority of the England squad?

Other teams and usually Tigers.

Providing players to the Invitational circus is all part of being successful I'm afraid. Got to just suck it up and stop complaining about it.

That's my point... I never imagined Saracens in the situation...

I'm not complaining, if you read the rest of my point it states that I'm glad we have tough opposition during the AIs and 6N periods, you guys (tigers) Have done well again though this season with I think 5 in the Engand squad this time so fair play and you're right on your penultimate point we do have to 'suck it up' so to speak

 
Re: EJ's squad for Argentina game..
Jim 55 (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 12:24
Quote:
Seany_Boy0511
Quote:
Yorkie
Quote:
Seany_Boy0511
This is a remarkable situation to be in, when I started following Saracens over 9 years ago I never imagined we would have over a third of the English national team


And back "over 9 years ago", who was providing the majority of the England squad?

Other teams and usually Tigers.

Providing players to the Invitational circus is all part of being successful I'm afraid. Got to just suck it up and stop complaining about it.

That's my point... I never imagined Saracens in the situation...

I'm not complaining, if you read the rest of my point it states that I'm glad we have tough opposition during the AIs and 6N periods, you guys (tigers) Have done well again though this season with I think 5 in the Engand squad this time so fair play and you're right on your penultimate point we do have to 'suck it up' so to speak

+1

 
Re: EJ's squad for Argentina game..
1876-Fez (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 12:44
Final 23

Faz and Maro rested as expected. .
Loz.Jamie.George. on bench.
Mako starts

Please don't break them ...

England XV: Mike Brown; Anthony Watson, Jonathan Joseph, Henry Slade, Elliot Daly; George Ford, Ben Youngs; Mako Vunipola, Dylan Hartley (capt), Dan Cole, Courtney Lawes, George Kruis, Chris Robshaw, Sam Underhill, Nathan Hughes

Replacements: Jamie George, Ellis Genge, Harry Williams, Joe Launchbury, Tom Curry, Danny Care, Alex Lozowski, Semesa Rokoduguni



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Re: EJ's squad for Argentina game..
Man from LA (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 13:09
Quote:
Sarakene
...and (let's be honest) one of the reasons that great players may be prepared to sign for us at less than their perceived "club market" rate is because they will earn the difference (and more) by playing for England/Wales/Scotland etc and winning things e.g. Loz not going to Exeter as advertised / Liam W. So let's not whinge at this time of year and instead celebrate having such a great squad (within the salary cap) and the potential to win a 3rd European honour.

(Sm126)

 
Re: EJ's squad for Argentina game..
SarrieGirl (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 15:04
Suppose itís a good thing for Sarries if Maro & Owen only play the Australia game - we SHOULD have them available for Quins away on 3rd Dec ?

We normally give all the England boys the week off when they return from international duty but if they only play 1 game in 4 weeks, surely they would be good to go by then ?

 
Re: EJ's MATCH DAY squad for Argentina game..
Highbury Saracen (IP Logged)
09 November, 2017 19:23
We always have a pretty good idea what clubs provide majority of international players so why cant these clubs play each other during AIís or 6Nís?



Double Champions of Europe,we know who we are!! smiling smiley

 
Re: EJ's MATCH DAY squad for Argentina game..
1876-Fez (IP Logged)
10 November, 2017 08:12
In Telegraph this morning EJ stating Maro and Faz not happy at being rested .. had to remind them he was the boss... nice bit of PR spin but I can imagine that they both wanted to play...



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Re: EJ's MATCH DAY squad for Argentina game..
kakshaks (IP Logged)
10 November, 2017 09:16
Worth mentioning that Jones has ended up with yet another long term injury on his watch with poor Tom Curry being done in during training.
I dont know exactly what regime he inflicts on his players but he has way, way more injuries during training than any other international coach which cant be a good thing.
Especially in this day and age when players are complaining they are being beasted much more during games then the last thing they then need is to be happening in training. Its reached the stage where being selected for England increases the risk of being seriously injured due to whatever training Jones is insisting on. Now I acknowledge that to be the best you have to toughen your players but no other country lose anywhere near as many players to 'injured in training' so something is, in my opinion, wrong!
From memory, Saracens have lost Kruis, Faz and Loz due to England training injuries with Kruis being the worst when he was hit for about 7-8 weeks.

 
Re: EJ's MATCH DAY squad for Argentina game..
Highbury Saracen (IP Logged)
10 November, 2017 10:18
If Maro & Faz only play Australia game could they play for us against Chiefs on 26th?



Double Champions of Europe,we know who we are!! smiling smiley

 
Re: EJ's MATCH DAY squad for Argentina game..
The Bard (IP Logged)
10 November, 2017 11:56
No chance whatsoever I'd imagine!

 
Re: EJ's MATCH DAY squad for Argentina game..
BarnetSarrie (IP Logged)
10 November, 2017 12:55
Well I am complaining Yorkie - with good reason. I did so in full on the other thread - 'Rob Baxter'. Dolph42 I think you are oversimplifying to say we didnt win the AP because of the EC the week before. Of course you are right that the boys were carrying injuries as a result and were knackered - it was a game too far - but it was also that it was an away semi at Sandy Park, rather than a home semi at AzP. The whole squad had been over used during the season, because even our 'left behinders' had been overused with no rest. That is the point - it isnt just the beasting and bashing that Eddie and England and international matches mete out to the boys they take from us for up to 10 weeks (you are spot on Kakshaks) - it is the pressure then put on the ones who then have to fill in. Yes of course it gives them opportunity to shine - or actually conversely to fail and have to learn rather than lose confidence - but what happens? Eddie picks them as well. As for Loz being battle hardened - it is more likely that he will come back carrying a battle scar and injury!

My point is - I want them to be picked for their sakes - but there has to be a way of making this whole system fairer. I WANT to support England - but for the life of me at the moment, I do so with a bitter taste in my mouth.

 
Re: EJ's squad for Argentina game..
GeorgeTheWasp (IP Logged)
10 November, 2017 15:37
Quote:
Sarakene
...and (let's be honest) one of the reasons that great players may be prepared to sign for us at less than their perceived "club market" rate

Reallllllyyyyyyy (Sm14)

Also, I think the complaining (or conversation) over fairness of losing all these players to internationals is not all that. Can we really argue that you losing 5 is THAT much different from Leicester losing 5 and Bath 4 as all of these are first team players and all top teams are hit by losing players.

I could argue along a similar line with the Wasps injury crisis and our reserves players having to take additional pressure on having to fill their shoes and perform week in week out but at the end of the day it's just rugby isn't it.

By saying that you suffer so much with these international periods, is that saying that your squad depth is not good enough to compete in other competitions? (genuine question, not trying to wind up) I'd argue players of the calibre of brits, skelton etc should be able to cover?

 
Re: EJ's MATCH DAY squad for Argentina game..
BarnetSarrie (IP Logged)
10 November, 2017 16:22
It isnt 5 its 6 George - and if Billy werent injured it would almost certainly be 7 - and if you read the press there are others on Eddie's radar in our squad. We also have an injury crisis - in the back row - though nobody is writing about it, and honestly - when you start to lose half of your 'first team' for weeks on end, no matter how good everyone else is, the squad is stretched to the absolute limit and everyone suffers. No rotation, no cover. For a week or two that wouldnt matter - but it isnt a week or two.

Yes we have Schalk, for this season, but honestly should he be playing every game? NO of course he shouldnt have to. He'd probably be starting one in two or three and coming off the bench in the others as Neil did last year. 'Will is only just back from injury - and let's hope he stays fit! It isnt an endless pool of players - the internationals put pressure on everyone in the squad. People carrying injuries who would normally be able to take that extra week or two, cant.

And you can post the smiley - but it happens to be generally true. Lucky for us, people want to come to Saracens and they also want to stay. You might say that is an advantage of being watched by England so closely - partly because they get noticed if they come to us - take Loz as an example. That's true of course - but it also happens to be the case that by coming to Saracens he is happier, fitter, more motivated and is improving with every game - with exceptional coaching! Otherwise he wouldn't have been selected - and he wouldnt have decided to stay when offered lucrative contracts by other clubs. He wasn't selected before!

 
Re: EJ's MATCH DAY squad for Argentina game..
GeorgeTheWasp (IP Logged)
13 November, 2017 09:12
I meant to write 6 to 5 but my argument is still the same - clubs who have lost 5 or even 4 first team players will "suffer" just as much. Again, I agree on the whole injury crisis thing at that it forces the squad to be stretched to the limit but again, it's not only happening to Saracens.

Clearly Saracens do some good work to get some players to want to stay and yes of course there is the added advantage of having the close ties with England setup but what I was saying is that a large part of this is also down to the large salaries on offer. The smiley was in reference to the "less than their perceived "club market" rate" which i just don't believe sorry

 
Re: EJ's MATCH DAY squad for Argentina game..
Sara'sman (IP Logged)
13 November, 2017 14:42
Quote:
GeorgeTheWasp
The smiley was in reference to the "less than their perceived "club market" rate" which i just don't believe sorry

An offensive statement to make without offering any evidence when visiting our site George. You are calling a long list of our players liers. Players from Schalke Brits to Liam Williams and many in between have repeatedly stated that they accepted less than offered elsewhere to play for Saracens. In Brits' case he was offered substantially more to play in France but bought in to Sarries' vision. Many followed, valuing the culture above more money.

Within the last month Warren Gatland stated that the Welsh regions need to create a culture similar to Saracens', where players are happy to accept less money because of the culture and success. Another lier?

Why is Launchbury staying with you for less than the £500k pa Sale have offered? As several on your board suggest (and I agree), probably because he is happy where he is, or have you corrected them? On the same thread, a Sale fan writes re Tommy Taylor "Indeed, he allegedly accepted less money at Wasps than Sale were prepared to offer him to stay".

Unlike several other Wasps fans who have posted on this site, the majority of what you have written is balanced and welcome. But many of us are sick of statements such as the above.

 
Re: EJ's MATCH DAY squad for Argentina game..
GeorgeTheWasp (IP Logged)
13 November, 2017 15:27
Just trying to wind you up sorry guys winking smiley some of it is simply jealousy!

On a genuine note though, with the (RUMOURED i know) re-signing of players like Farrell (rumoured 750k), George (rumoured around 500k), Lozowski (cheaper I would think), Maro rumoured to be becoming the first million pound player in the premiership, and the expensive signings of people like Williams, do you think you will be able to hold on to all your top talent financially? If those numbers are true (which they probably aren't) thats over £2m on three players. What do you think?

 
Re: EJ's MATCH DAY squad for Argentina game..
JO'G (IP Logged)
13 November, 2017 16:16
Quote:
GeorgeTheWasp
Just trying to wind you up sorry guys winking smiley some of it is simply jealousy!
On a genuine note though, with the (RUMOURED i know) re-signing of players like Farrell (rumoured 750k), George (rumoured around 500k), Lozowski (cheaper I would think), Maro rumoured to be becoming the first million pound player in the premiership, and the expensive signings of people like Williams, do you think you will be able to hold on to all your top talent financially? If those numbers are true (which they probably aren't) thats over £2m on three players. What do you think?

One of the often missed things about players supposed salaries is the commercial aspects. The revised Salary Cap regulations exclude them is they are not created through the club, that is if OF and MO negotiate them directly with their commercial partners then they get the proceeds but its not part of the 'official' salary paid by the club in the cap construction.

However, when the media / interested parties calculate the 'salary' that OF / MO get paid its likely to be included. so for example Sarries may pay Itoje, 390k and allow him to keep all of his 475k of commercial contracts and then his 175k England and Lions making him a million pound player - but actually only 390 goes in the cap

contrast that to other clubs who like to make a bit out of it - who take 15% commission of the 475k and pass on a salary cap of 795k (390k + 405k) to the audit guys



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