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England v Argies
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
11 November, 2017 16:09
Zzzzzzzzzzz.........

 
Re: England v Argies
Hellequin (IP Logged)
11 November, 2017 16:19
Got to ask who would you rather see play for England; Farrell or Lowoski? Reckon there are 2 sides to this question . Who would you rather have available during the international periods and who fits best into the England squad?

 
Re: England v Argies
The Bard (IP Logged)
11 November, 2017 16:34
I suspect Loz might have earned himself a bench spot. Ford did enough to keep his place, rest of the backs very ordinary. Fight for second row places will be massive.
Hope Brown is OK, that was entirely caused by the illegal blocking interfering with the Argentina player

 
Re: England v Argies
Darraghgirl (IP Logged)
11 November, 2017 16:34
I think Loz could have played himself onto the bench for next week .....which leaves us a bit short!

 
Re: England v Argies
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
11 November, 2017 16:37
I think you can safely say Chiefs will get Slade back.

 
Re: England v Argies
villagesarrie (IP Logged)
11 November, 2017 17:25
Dull, dull, dull. Best thing was seeing Eddie completely losing it.

 
Re: England v Argies
OldMarovian (IP Logged)
11 November, 2017 19:06
Mako was simply exceptional. Lozo looked very good when he came on and it was a great reminder of what a weapon pace is. One to forget for Kruis.

 
Re: England v Argies
King Zak (IP Logged)
11 November, 2017 21:48
Kruis was okay; Mako and Underhill very good but Lawes is holding the pack together at the moment. As for the 'captain'.........



Nous sommes l'armée noir et rouge !

 
Re: England v Argies
Jim 55 (IP Logged)
11 November, 2017 22:21
Quote:
King Zak
Kruis was okay; Mako and Underhill very good but Lawes is holding the pack together at the moment. As for the 'captain'.........

Sorry! 'Captain'?????

 
Re: England v Argies
Innings (IP Logged)
11 November, 2017 23:31
Jamie and Loz added some much-needed go forward when they came on. Sadly for him, I think that George Kruis's boat to Japan is preparing to leave without him. There is simply too much competition for second row places for him to be able to ride out another performance that poor.

I cannot fathom out EH's obsession with Hartley, who for me cuts it neither as captain nor player. If you want a captain to drive the action, especially when things are a bit lost, I'd prefer Faz, all day every day. If you want a hooker who actually is the best player in his position, there's little argument about who the best hooker in the AP really is.

I don't get Brown either. He's a brave one-trick pony, and I can think of other 15s who are better players.

Actually, I think EJ's painting himself into a corner. He regularly praises Brown and Hartley, but at times is almost defensive about them, as though he knows that neither is really what he should be going for.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
Re: England v Argies
Waldo (IP Logged)
12 November, 2017 06:58
Quote:
Hellequin
Got to ask who would you rather see play for England; Farrell or Lowoski? Reckon there are 2 sides to this question . Who would you rather have available during the international periods and who fits best into the England squad?

I don’t think we will see Farrell not play for England unless he is rested/injured.

I would have liked to have seen Loz play for us when Faz was away with England - which I believe was the reason we signed him. But he caught Eddies eye which is a credit to him.

I would like to see at some point a faz loz 10/12 for England .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2017 07:03 by Waldo.

 
Re: England v Argies
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
12 November, 2017 10:49
A Grindathon is how EJ described the match yesterday which was a fair summary I thought.

"Every time we created something a pass would go astray or something. Henry Slade did some good things but that understanding at 10-12-13 wasn't really there."

An opportunity granted and wasted.
Loz's display of pace yesterday showed he is a better 13 than Slade is a 12 which of course then opens up the possibility of a Ford Faz Loz 10 12 13 axis. Bonkers? Probably. Certainly not going to happen next week anyway. I of course do realize Loz came on at 12 yesterday but it is that display of outright pace I'm referring to. He's certainly quick enough to play 13.

 
Re: England v Argies
Sara'sman (IP Logged)
12 November, 2017 11:47
Interesting how we see things differently. Do we all take too much notice of "headline incidents" when forming opinions? What if Hughes hadn't shown great skill (and fortune) in collecting that pass? Would we be thinking more of his drop from a kick off? (Yes, I know!) His drifting out of the game? And Ford ignoring a 5 on 2 for a speculative pass?

Slade flopped again on the big stage but was unfairly played at 12. His forward pass for the try ignored a simple pop to Robshaw for a run in. Lozowski is being overly praised for a single break between tired forwards.

Kruis does so much of the necessary donkey work, strong in the defensive line, but is marked down for his lineout penalty when Lawes and Robshaw (especially) push him through when lifting. Hartley carried and tackled more than usual.

Worth watching the full build up to the Argies' try. George covers repeatedly from 15 to 15 before ultimately being beaten by a quicker opponent. Some blame him, but fail to see Genge, Williams and Launchbury all ignore his call for cover on the short side.

Back Row is England's problem for me. I'm a huge fan of Robshaw but his fantastic engine can no longer cover his lack of pace or carrying, Underhill did nothing other than tackle and Hughes drifts out of the game too frequently. The key difference between the Lions and England is these three I'd suggest.

 
Re: England v Argies
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
12 November, 2017 12:36
Quote:
Sara'sman
Slade flopped again on the big stage but was unfairly played at 12.

The problem for him is you have to play where EJ sees a requirement and take your chances. Slade was played at 12 to accommodate JJ in much the same way as Faz is played at 12 to accommodate Ford.

Quote:
Sara'sman
Lozowski is being overly praised for a single break between tired forwards.

He did much more than that in only 15 minutes on the pitch. The whole offensive game took a step up. I'm not saying that was all down to Loz but it did happen.

Quote:
Sara'sman
Back Row is England's problem for me. I'm a huge fan of Robshaw but his fantastic engine can no longer cover his lack of pace or carrying

Which is why I think, given the availability of Lawes, Launchberry and Kruis we may see more of Maro at 6 - for better or for worse.

Quote:
Sara'sman
Underhill did nothing other than tackle

Which he did exceptionally well. Agree that at this stage he is a bit too one dimensional and will have to bring something else to the table. He is of course very young and has time to develop.

EJ is in the enviable position of having a huge and talented pool. His aim is to have 3 choices in every position on the pitch and he is well on the way to doing that (apart from fullback). Undoubtedly England will have to step up several notches for next week. Will EJ have the nuts to bench Dylan and make Faz the captain? A big call....he may keep that back for the Samoa game.

 
Re: England v Argies
The Bard (IP Logged)
12 November, 2017 13:21
Thought GK did OK yesterday. He looked baffled by the first penalty against him, and surely in the last minute of the half it is worth taking a gamble to steal an opposition throw when they are 5m from their own line.

 
Re: England v Argies
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
12 November, 2017 13:29
Forgot to mention... big congratulations to Mako for his MOTM performance. Our lot had picked him out by half time. A really outstanding performance on a day when they were in short supply.

Also....did anyone else notice how svelte Mako is looking? Really noticeable we thought grinning smiley

 
Re: England v Argies
OldMarovian (IP Logged)
12 November, 2017 15:29
Lawes a better option at 6 than Maro for me. Maro and Kruis or Launchbury in the engine room.

 
Re: England v Argies
kakshaks (IP Logged)
12 November, 2017 16:11
England do not deserve credit whilst they continue to play the best fly half in the NH out of position, put the best hooker in Europe on the bench, play a fullback who refuses to pass and a slow, plodding, ex-captain in the back row. Add that to yesterday, playing arguably the player of the season so far, in Slade, also out of position.
Next week or, if it has to be v Samoa, let’s have Care, Faz, May, Loz, Slade, Roko, Watson and Hartley rested! Back row of Maro, Underhill/Simmonds, Hughes/Simmonds.

 
Re: England v Argies
F-F-F-FEZ (IP Logged)
12 November, 2017 18:32
Everybody has overlooked Farrell's performance - he was outstanding with the water bottles. EJ even joked he may have secured the spot........
Underhill who is under Hill (HRHRH) had a good start I thought.

 
Re: England v Argies
JO'G (IP Logged)
13 November, 2017 11:58
perhaps some credit should go to Argentina

1) They held on to ball for a number of phases in better positions on the pitch than England and thus secured a big %age of possession. This meant England didn't get enough time with the ball to dictate the sort of game they wanted to play

2) When Argentina did cough up the ball they forced England to kick a lot of the time and never really looked like doing anything than run it efficiently back; England might have kicked but lack of chase.

3) I though Argentina won the kicking battle (from hand that is) - as well as winning the set-piece battle - and the possession and territory battle

Having said all that with all the advantages in the various battles - they never looked like winning especially as they kept missing sensible kicks. If they had a Faz like quality kicker the 9/12 missed points would have meant they were up at halftime and probably until England turned up the gears with the substitutions



Park team from London
Just a park team from London
European Champions
Just European champions

 
Re: England v Argies
Seany_Boy0511 (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 13:37
If Argentina could kick they would have won that game, they should also feel slightly aggrieved on a couple of penalties against them especially the yellow card, that was never foul play and although the officials got it wrong then then got the got the sanction wrong as well as by the letter of the law if a player is taken out in the air and lands on their head it's a straight red... Marious got that one wrong and also I'm not entirely sure Hartley was taken out with no arms when he said thank you and the tackle off the ball wasn't that clear and obvious either,

Argentina also went through nearly 20 phases to score their try towards nthe end so they are no mugs but England need to improve and I'm not sure just dropping Hartley and Brown is the answer personally, I agree that Brown probably isn't the best full back option we have I'd like to see Watson start there more often now obviously I'd like to see Jamie start but who would be the Captain if Hartley is not playing.. Mike Brown probably... As Farrell was rested and Billy V injured and theyre the Vice Captains I believe

 
Re: England v Argies
primavesi (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 15:53
As an England fan I am delighted that we have got to the stage where people complain after we win games. I made the same point after the so called debacle against Italy (a game we won easily). It shows just how far we have come. At the same time, Wales lose a game (again) and people find positives.

We just beat a member of our so called group of death (I happen to think it was a fairly kind draw) and we never really looked in too much trouble before the late consolation try.

Jones is a winner. He knows that you win a world cup, you need more than 23 players, and so he is experimenting with some new names. Obviously when you try that for the first time it is unlikely that the team will fire on all cylinders straight off the bat but they can´t have played that badly or they would not have beaten Argentina, who we are all supposed to be worried about drawing in the world cup. This was a solid start to the series and I only see us improving and keeping up Jones´ impressive winning record.

 
Re: England v Argies
Seany_Boy0511 (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 17:05
Agree there primavesi with the fact that we've been given a kindish draw, we should be looking to top that group in all honesty, I also.agree that Engand played well but they need to improve they shouldn't be leaving 14 points out there luckily for us Argentina couldn't kick their goals, we will improve and I still believe in two years time we will be strong enough to win another world cup

I guess Saturday against Australia is the first real test, be interested to see who plays 13 this weekend and with Loz released,(feel sorry for him he's definitely played well enough to retain his place) does that mean Farrell may get his chance at 10?

 
Re: England v Argies
OldMarovian (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 17:59
Quote:
primavesi
We just beat a member of our so called group of death (I happen to think it was a fairly kind draw) and we never really looked in too much trouble before the late consolation try.

We beat a mid table Super Rugby team who kicked at 17% accuracy, were given a dodgy yellow card and had a try awarded against them from a forward pass in addition to barely any of the 50/50 calls.

I really hope Jones isn't as laid back as you seem primavesi, for me he should have Klaxons going off after that performance.

 
Re: England v Argies
AP (IP Logged)
14 November, 2017 22:28
He had klaxons going off during that performance!



Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade

 
Re: England v Argies
Convex Hull (IP Logged)
15 November, 2017 05:28
Jones hasn't won many titles as a head coach during his career. The last win of any significance was the 2001 TriNations.

The number of wins he has achieved with England is impressive, but to describe him as 'winner' doesn't accurately reflect his achievements at the top level of rugby.

That may sound a little churlish, he has certainly coached teams that have put in impressive performances over the years, but he has had quite a few losses along with the wins.



Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?

 
Re: England v Argies
flavman 35 (IP Logged)
15 November, 2017 05:59
For me that game was poor. Why play spade at 12? Let him play in his position it is what got him the shirt in the first place.
Underhill just tackled all day. Yes he done it very well but when robshaw was doing that at 7 he got slaughtered for it.
Marko is always class so no shock there.
Brown, please somebody find out what he has over Eddie cos this just can't carry on, get Watson or goodey in there, let them find there feet before the world cup.
Courtney lawes is quality he really is playing well. Launchbury for me didn't do a great deal so why is kruis getting all the negatives?
Jamie George needs to start as he is just simply better in his position then Hartley. Not everyone can be wrong.
All in all it was a slow pedestrian attack.
Play people in their natural position and the fluidity will be there to play at a higher tempo.
Onto the Aussie, will we step up another two gears? Only Saturday will tell.

 
Re: England v Argies
primavesi (IP Logged)
15 November, 2017 16:49
Quote:
Convex Hull
Jones hasn't won many titles as a head coach during his career. The last win of any significance was the 2001 TriNations..

Do the last two 6 nations not count as significant? They are surely as big as a tri nations, if not more.

He was a Jonny away from winning the 2003 world cup. Won the 2007 world cup (not head coach but a huge part of it by all accounts) and of course there was 2015 when his Japan team won 3 of their 4 matches, including against South Africa and Samoa.

I think his % win record makes it pretty fair to call him a winner to be honest.

 
Re: England v Argies
Seany_Boy0511 (IP Logged)
15 November, 2017 18:06
Eddie Jones Is a winner and if he gets his selection right I truly believe he could be a world cup winner in 2019 I honestly believe Engand and the players they have could he world beaters

 
Re: England v Argies
Convex Hull (IP Logged)
16 November, 2017 04:58
Quote:
primavesi
Quote:
Convex Hull
Jones hasn't won many titles as a head coach during his career. The last win of any significance was the 2001 TriNations..

Do the last two 6 nations not count as significant? They are surely as big as a tri nations, if not more.

I doubt that you would get many rugby supporters South of the Equator that would agree.

He was a Jonny away from winning the 2003 world cup.

But he didn't win, and was subsequently fired two seasons later.


Won the 2007 world cup (not head coach but a huge part of it by all accounts)

He was not Head Coach, although clearly made an important contribution.

and of course there was 2015 when his Japan team won 3 of their 4 matches, including against South Africa and Samoa.

Yes, he did well with limited resources

I think his % win record makes it pretty fair to call him a winner to be honest.

Good winning record with England, for sure.




Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?


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