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Owens and Irish Scrums
Sara'sman (IP Logged)
03 February, 2018 17:37
I know both he and St Brian of Moore are deities but will someone please point it out! For years he refuses to penalise Irish scrums and the incoherent Moore fails to notice in his supposed area of expertise. The overhead camera shows perfectly that Healey is driving in at an angle then under his opponent, the French scrummaging straight. Not only is the dominant French scrum negated but the Irish are gifted penalties! Wake up Nige.

 
Re: Owens and Irish Scrums
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
03 February, 2018 18:43
Nigel was completely mugged by the French 5 minutes from the end claiming an HIA when it was crystal clear the French player was being treated for a knee injury.

I thought France were doing England a favour until Sexton's last gasp drop goal.

 
Re: Owens and Irish Scrums
Sara'sman (IP Logged)
03 February, 2018 18:49
Agreed - poor man had no option but to accept le medecin's word. Shame on the French. Had me cheering the brilliant last play by Sexton et al.

 
Re: Owens and Irish Scrums
AP (IP Logged)
03 February, 2018 19:59
But he got it on record that it was the doctor's call, not his. Another Bloodgate looms?



Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade

 
Re: Owens and Irish Scrums
tpr's headmistress (IP Logged)
03 February, 2018 20:53
Didn't the same thing happen when Barnes was reffing the France v Wales game last year? The prop said he had a sore back but the doctor said he needed to go for a head injury assessment.

 
Re: Owens and Irish Scrums
Innings (IP Logged)
03 February, 2018 22:30
The doctor is independently appointed by the board of 6N, IIRC. Probably you assume that he's part of a great conspiracy as well? You're right if you do: it's co-ordinated from a small UFO that hovers over each game. And Owens is as well, because he instantly said HIA, long before any other person had reacted to his whistle. Clearly, he was receiving his instructions through a second, hidden, ear-piece linked to the controllers in the UFO.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
Re: Owens and Irish Scrums
AlanE (IP Logged)
04 February, 2018 10:21
I thought Owens did really well on that point and it's unfair to suggest he was mugged. He came across as clearly dubious of the HIA claim and asked for medical confirmation several times and then said he was not a medic so had to take that advice.

I think this is going to run and run - at least on the internet where there are some funny takes on French anatomy.



I was 17 miles from Graybridge before I was caught by the school leopard

 
Re: Owens and Irish Scrums
Innings (IP Logged)
04 February, 2018 10:51
Personally, I hope it will run and run. The HIA protocol is far to important to be allowed to become a way to cheat the game in other ways. The medical decision has to be totally independent of the venue or body managing the game, and in cases like this the evidence should be referred back to a separate review body afterwards. Then there have to be sanctions for those involved if malfeasance is found. Alternatively, stop the farce and just permit rotation of players.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
Re: Owens and Irish Scrums
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
04 February, 2018 11:34
Quote:
AlanE
I thought Owens did really well on that point and it's unfair to suggest he was mugged.

Alan you're completely misinterpreting the meaning of mugged in this context. It means that the decision was 'forcibly' taken away from him as was clear for all to see. As in he was mugged! There is no suggestion from me in any way that he was a mug! As others have said he was very savvy to make sure his clear distaste for what he obviously simply did not believe were on record.

Innings....the French team doctor was the one who passed the message to Nigel that he should have an HIA via the guy he was talking to and it was this that Nigel repeatedly challenged. It may well be that an independent ERC doctor actually does the assessment and this would certainly make sense. There should be no pressure one way or the other to influence whether or not a player is fit to return.

I don't think this will rumble. I think it will be quietly forgotten. Possibly a different scenario if Ireland hadn't gone on to win.

 
Re: Owens and Irish Scrums
1876-Fez (IP Logged)
04 February, 2018 14:39
OK...I'll play devils advocate...

What if the player says to the Dr "my head hurts" even after what looks like a clash of knees as he falls to the ground.... would the Dr be negligent not to call for a HIA?

Perhaps it's not only the Dr's who need to be looked at?



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Re: Owens and Irish Scrums
nedrichards (IP Logged)
04 February, 2018 16:03
True, and being charitable it's entirely possible that you could be suffering symptoms from a previous event - that's why the suspcion of taking advantage is so pernicious. We really *want* players to be honest about their feelings and removing themselves from the field of play at the slightest hint of a concern.

 
Re: Owens and Irish Scrums
Innings (IP Logged)
05 February, 2018 10:22
We really *want* players to be honest about their feelings and removing themselves from the field of play at the slightest hint of a concern.

Where's that emoji of pigs with wings when I need it?



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
Re: Owens and Irish Scrums
Seany_Boy0511 (IP Logged)
05 February, 2018 11:15
Although the French player was crocked and limping he did actually hit his head.... So although it may look obvious that it wasn't a HIA perhaps it genuinely was, as Nigel said he's not a doctor and neither are we... So you have to believe the medical team at the time,

The flip side of course is if they are abusing the system then yes absolutely fine and ban them as cheating is completely unacceptable

 
Re: Owens and Irish Scrums
JO'G (IP Logged)
05 February, 2018 14:23
Eggchasers had a simple solution

If the player can jog off - its an HIA
If he can't then its a replacement



Park team from London
Just a park team from London
European Champions
Just European champions

 
Re: Owens and Irish Scrums
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
05 February, 2018 15:20
Quote:
JO'G
Eggchasers had a simple solution
If the player can jog off - its an HIA
If he can't then its a replacement

In my playing days the old adage was.....

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck.......

It's a concussion. [:wor kid:]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/02/2018 19:43 by GazzaFez.

 
Re: Owens and Irish Scrums
AP (IP Logged)
05 February, 2018 20:17
Quote:
JO'G
Eggchasers had a simple solution
If the player can jog off - its an HIA
If he can't then its a replacement

So if he's knocked unconscious and is too groggy to stand, it's not a HIA?

The issue in the match was that it initially looked very much like a head injury and it then became clear that he was not able to continue anyway. Should that supplant the HIA protocol?

What happens if a player clearly breaks a leg or an arm but then is diagnosed on the pitch as concussed?

I suggest the position should be that if he's too injured to play on, that displaces the HIA protocol procedure, but how do you deal with the huge grey area in the middle? What if Buck Shelford had split his head as well as to his scrotum?



Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade

 
Re: Owens and Irish Scrums
saracens4life (IP Logged)
05 February, 2018 21:18
Re: the title of the thread - yes totally agree.

Slimani had Healy all over the place. Healy should have been penalised 4 times in the 1st half, and yet Nige ignored 3 of them and gave one the other way (Sm8)

 
Re: Owens and Irish Scrums
Barnesy (IP Logged)
06 February, 2018 02:47
Quote:
AP
Quote:
JO'G
Eggchasers had a simple solution
If the player can jog off - its an HIA
If he can't then its a replacement

So if he's knocked unconscious and is too groggy to stand, it's not a HIA?


If he's knocked unconscious then there's not supposed to be a HIA it's meant to be a permeant replacement.

Which is why they had all the discussions after the Parra incident in their 1st game against Saints when the Ref said he'd been knocked unconscious.

 
Re: Owens and Irish Scrums
Sara'sman (IP Logged)
06 February, 2018 09:21
Quote:
saracens4life
Re: the title of the thread - yes totally agree.
Slimani had Healy all over the place. Healy should have been penalised 4 times in the 1st half, and yet Nige ignored 3 of them and gave one the other way (Sm8)

Thank goodness for that S4L - I'm not going mad then! My half time rant was in the hope that others would look out for and comment on what I was seeing though the second half was less obvious, particularly once the props were subbed.

For the sake of clarity I wholeheartedly agree with the widely held opinion that Nigel is up there with the very best. I'm always happy to see him referee. But I've spotted a long term trend of him failing to penalise Irish scrums, stretching back to Northampton's Heineken game at Thomond when Tiny, Dylan and Mooj slaughtered the home scrum but were the side penalised off the park. It continued with their SA TH who dropped his opponent and drove him into the ground every fist scrum I saw him play, but was never pinged until Barnes sorted it out one game. I'm certain it's not a conscious bias, Owens is far too honest to even think that. But I do believe regular exposure to his style in the Pro12/14 has enabled the Irish to identify how far they can push his weaknesses.

 
Re: Owens and Irish Scrums
JO'G (IP Logged)
06 February, 2018 10:34
Quote:
AP
Quote:
JO'G
Eggchasers had a simple solution
If the player can jog off - its an HIA
If he can't then its a replacement

So if he's knocked unconscious and is too groggy to stand, it's not a HIA?

The issue in the match was that it initially looked very much like a head injury and it then became clear that he was not able to continue anyway. Should that supplant the HIA protocol?

What happens if a player clearly breaks a leg or an arm but then is diagnosed on the pitch as concussed?

I suggest the position should be that if he's too injured to play on, that displaces the HIA protocol procedure, but how do you deal with the huge grey area in the middle? What if Buck Shelford had split his head as well as to his scrotum?


I think you sort of answered yourself on the two-part injury. And although it was a bit tongue in cheek - the Eggchasers solution sounds a simple test for a complicated issue

As Barnesy said - if he is too groggy to stand and jog off - its too much for a HIA anyway, and the jogging off would cover any two-part injury

The more I think about it - a simple solution seems to cover most situations - certainly better than the whole nightmare we have now

Having said all that - I do think that a player who has been knocked out should be allowed to be replaced by a sub even if that sub had been already on. The implications of the HIA protocol for being knocked out (3 weeks off) would be enough of a penalty to stop anyone faking it



Park team from London
Just a park team from London
European Champions
Just European champions

 
Re: Owens and Irish Scrums
EnfieldMal (IP Logged)
06 February, 2018 13:35
Quote:
JO'G
Eggchasers had a simple solution
If the player can jog off - its an HIA
If he can't then its a replacement

Thatís assuming you canít have a head & a limb injury at the same time. We will never really know unless a player confesses & says they were asked to say HIA or the player doesnít undergo an HIA test by the independent dr

 
Re: Owens and Irish Scrums
Sarriebone (IP Logged)
07 February, 2018 12:23
Quote:
EnfieldMal
Quote:
JO'G
Eggchasers had a simple solution
If the player can jog off - its an HIA
If he can't then its a replacement

Thatís assuming you canít have a head & a limb injury at the same time. We will never really know unless a player confesses & says they were asked to say HIA or the player doesnít undergo an HIA test by the independent dr

I think the point is it doesn't matter if they both happen at the same time. The player isn't going to be in any state to come back on whether it's a head injury or a limb injury. If a player hobbles off with less than 10 minutes to play, as was the case at the weekend, he's not coming back on, claiming as an HIA just means that they can replace him with someone who's already been on, however if he can't jog off then it's clearly an injury replacement either head or other.

 
Re: Owens and Irish Scrums
David@Sarries (IP Logged)
08 February, 2018 00:39
My simple view is that it should be outcome based.

If the player were to pass the HIA would he/she be able to return to the game? Only if the answer is ďYesĒ do HIA rules apply otherwise itís injured player rules.

 
Re: Owens and Irish Scrums
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
08 February, 2018 18:08
I am not entirely sure which piece of anatomy provides Buck's sentience! winking smiley
Quote:
AP
Quote:
JO'G
Eggchasers had a simple solution
If the player can jog off - its an HIA
If he can't then its a replacement

So if he's knocked unconscious and is too groggy to stand, it's not a HIA?

The issue in the match was that it initially looked very much like a head injury and it then became clear that he was not able to continue anyway. Should that supplant the HIA protocol?

What happens if a player clearly breaks a leg or an arm but then is diagnosed on the pitch as concussed?

I suggest the position should be that if he's too injured to play on, that displaces the HIA protocol procedure, but how do you deal with the huge grey area in the middle? What if Buck Shelford had split his head as well as to his scrotum?



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