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Definition of 'Throw Forward'
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
17 February, 2018 12:16
I've found Law 12, 'Knock-on or Throw Forward' on the World Rugby website.

Does anyone have a link to the definition of 'throw Forward'? The real one, not a commentator's imaginings!



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Re: Definition of 'Throw Forward'
Innings (IP Logged)
17 February, 2018 12:35
This is a law that is overshadowed by metaphysical arguments about momentum, direction of the hands and other irrelevancies. However, the guidance notes of the laws including this definition of a throw forward: When a player throws or passes the ball forward i.e. if the arms of the player passing the ball move forward.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
Re: Definition of 'Throw Forward'
Convex Hull (IP Logged)
17 February, 2018 14:10
Quote:
Innings
This is a law that is overshadowed by metaphysical arguments about momentum, direction of the hands and other irrelevancies. However, the guidance notes of the laws including this definition of a throw forward: When a player throws or passes the ball forward i.e. if the arms of the player passing the ball move forward.

Even without recourse to metaphysics, this rule is 'holed below the waterline', it seems.

What is the ruling if the ball is thrown vertically when the player is running? It could, conceivably, travel forwards by ten metres, or more.



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Re: Definition of 'Throw Forward'
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
17 February, 2018 14:31
Quote:
Innings
This is a law that is overshadowed by metaphysical arguments about momentum, direction of the hands and other irrelevancies. However, the guidance notes of the laws including this definition of a throw forward: When a player throws or passes the ball forward i.e. if the arms of the player passing the ball move forward.

Innings, do you have a link for this, please? I have been losing the will to live, scrabbling around the World Rugby site!



£721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

 
Re: Definition of 'Throw Forward'
RustySword (IP Logged)
18 February, 2018 09:41
I guess World Rugby cannot bring itself to copy Rugby League's simple clarification ("The direction of a pass is relative to the player making it") and so tried to achieve the same thing with bizarre technicalities about a player's hands!

 
Re: Definition of 'Throw Forward'
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
18 February, 2018 17:20
I agree. They seem to be seeking to reach the same endpoint without copying the wording.

Perhaps they should refer to vector subtraction!



£721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

 
Re: Definition of 'Throw Forward'
primavesi (IP Logged)
19 February, 2018 07:46
This is a good video

[www.youtube.com]

 
Re: Definition of 'Throw Forward'
Squawker2 (IP Logged)
19 February, 2018 08:04
Quote:
RustySword
I guess World Rugby cannot bring itself to copy Rugby League's simple clarification ("The direction of a pass is relative to the player making it") and so tried to achieve the same thing with bizarre technicalities about a player's hands!

For example, if the player is from a “proper rugby team” they are relatively far superior to others and thus they may throw additionally far forwards (Sm14)



-----------------------------------------------------

Stuart Barnes is a Cock Womble

 
Re: Definition of 'Throw Forward'
TOKS (IP Logged)
19 February, 2018 09:33
This would have been an appropriate musing had Williams not bundled Solomena into touch right at the start of the game. The pass to Solomena travelled about 5 yards forward with both the centre passing and Solomena running at full tilt. The game was re-started with a line-out and not a scrum, hence the referee presumably thinking there was no issue with the pass.

 
Re: Definition of 'Throw Forward'
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
19 February, 2018 12:41
This law has suffered over the years by tinkering with it and just trying to be too clever. Simple is nearly always best in sports rules. All the recent guff about momentum and direction of players hands leaves it wide open to subjective interpretation.
A very simple statement along the lines of "A pass must not be received at any point forward of a point perpendicular to the point from which the ball was passed" is completely unambiguous. If it means that players have to run a bit deeper then so be it. To be fair the vast majority of forward passes are given when the winger is the receiver, the rest of the time the transgression is fairly obvious and blatant.

 
Re: Definition of 'Throw Forward'
primavesi (IP Logged)
20 February, 2018 12:02
Quote:
GazzaFez
This law has suffered over the years by tinkering with it and just trying to be too clever. Simple is nearly always best in sports rules. All the recent guff about momentum and direction of players hands leaves it wide open to subjective interpretation.
A very simple statement along the lines of "A pass must not be received at any point forward of a point perpendicular to the point from which the ball was passed" is completely unambiguous. If it means that players have to run a bit deeper then so be it. To be fair the vast majority of forward passes are given when the winger is the receiver, the rest of the time the transgression is fairly obvious and blatant.

I don´t agree that it should be relative to the pitch, which is what I understand you are saying. That would make it far harder to score tries out wide and change the game completely for the worse. As the video I posted above also shows, you could thrown the back backwards over your head and it would still go forwards.

I think it should be that the ball must travel backwards relative to the passing player, which is pretty much what the law is at the moment unless I am mistaken. If that means the ball moves forwards relative to the pitch, that to me is neither here nor there.

 
Re: Definition of 'Throw Forward'
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
20 February, 2018 12:57
Primavesi, if your suggestion were adopted, it would satisfy some of the current idiotic commentators.

The most contentious is when the passer is stopped dead by a tackler. This produces howls of rage from fans of the defending side. However, the current law clearly seeks to reward such skilful timing by the passer. I don't disagree with that as an objective. Perhaps the blazers should swallow their pride, adopt the RL wording, and utilise the existing video coverage.



£721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

 
Re: Definition of 'Throw Forward'
AP (IP Logged)
20 February, 2018 22:49
I like primavesi's suggestion of passing the back backwards over your head ....



Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade

 
Re: Definition of 'Throw Forward'
Harrow Sarrie (IP Logged)
21 February, 2018 00:15
Yeah, you could never do that with a forward... Well, not a Vunipola at least (Sm121)

 
Re: Definition of 'Throw Forward'
primavesi (IP Logged)
21 February, 2018 08:54
haha.. as long as the back doesnt travel forwards its not dangerous play..

 
Re: Definition of 'Throw Forward'
Bboonie (IP Logged)
22 February, 2018 10:21
2009 Laws;

DEFINITION: THROW FORWARD
A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

 
Re: Definition of 'Throw Forward'
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
22 February, 2018 13:15
I am certain that there is a subsequent clarification of that.



£721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

 
Re: Definition of 'Throw Forward'
JO'G (IP Logged)
22 February, 2018 13:38
Quote:
Bboonie
2009 Laws;
DEFINITION: THROW FORWARD
A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward.
‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

I'm sometimes disappointed that this simple version is not adhered to when the player passing is either static or nearly so. Understand the 'at pace' logic, but if its a scrum-half shuffling sideways the old interpretation should apply

 
Re: Definition of 'Throw Forward'
Bboonie (IP Logged)
22 February, 2018 16:09
TT, you are right but hardly a clarification;

2017
DEFINITION: THROW FORWARD
A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward, i.e, if the arms of the player passing the ball move towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

2017 World rugby law 12

 
Re: Definition of 'Throw Forward'
Bboonie (IP Logged)
22 February, 2018 16:14
Now even more obscure;


2018 Law 11

 
Re: Definition of 'Throw Forward'
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
22 February, 2018 18:07
Quote:
primavesi
That would make it far harder to score tries out wide and change the game completely for the worse.

Quite a sweeping statement; I don't think there's any evidence to support that view on either count.

The problem is very simple - too much subjectivity in deciding whether a pass is forward or not. I agree the solution is not so simple however. Hardly a match goes by when there's not at least one occasion where this is argued about. Any given afternoon at Twickers will have 40K fans saying a pass is forward, another 40K saying it's not and another 4 officiators trying to decide amongst themselves whether it was or wasn't! Unfortunately the subjective interpretation leads to to serious consequences - 2014 final being a case in point. Often the final grounding is the point argued over but the two forward pass controversies are often overlooked. The Faz/Goode try was called back by the TMO and the try disallowed. The pass to North was miles forward and yet not called back all over over the shenanigans about direction of travel of hands and player momentum etc.

The existing technology could make it absolutely clear cut just by using the gain-line highlighter as is used already. There just doesn't seem to be the appetite to adapt which surprises me given the number of decisions which continue to be controversial.

I have no doubt it will continue that way for the time being.


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