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England
vap (IP Logged)
24 February, 2018 18:36
Maybe that's a good result for their world cup chances, because Eddy can no longer claim it's all going well, and must surely make some changes.

 
Re: England
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
24 February, 2018 19:07
Yeah this result was an eye opener and I hope it means that this thing can make changes and move forward.

 
Re: England
AB (IP Logged)
24 February, 2018 19:24
agree totally.

1) remove Hartley permanently
2) remove Brown permanently
3) replace JJ - completely ineffectual
4) Danny Care had a stinker - time to introdudc Robson
5) Hughes is a big lump who adds nothing and clearly wasn't fit.
6) Watson also had a stinker

 
Re: England
lechef (IP Logged)
24 February, 2018 19:28
Quote:
AB
agree totally.
1) remove Hartley permanently
2) remove Brown permanently
3) replace JJ - completely ineffectual
4) Danny Care had a stinker - time to introdudc Robson
5) Hughes is a big lump who adds nothing and clearly wasn't fit.
6) Watson also had a stinker

Also agree 100%

 
Re: England
Sarriebone (IP Logged)
24 February, 2018 19:32
Quote:
AB
agree totally.
1) remove Hartley permanently
2) remove Brown permanently
3) replace JJ - completely ineffectual
4) Danny Care had a stinker - time to introdudc Robson
5) Hughes is a big lump who adds nothing and clearly wasn't fit.
6) Watson also had a stinker

Yup, sums it up

 
Re: England
SBFez (IP Logged)
24 February, 2018 19:43
I thought it was interesting how the dynamic changed once Faz moved to 10.

Have to say Scots were sitting back and England had to attack but the commentators mentioned how the attack looked much more structured and I agree.

Did also think it looked a little slower in general? If we'd played like that sooner it would maybe have calmed what looked like a panic-y performance at times. Although it was obvious we lost something in the times we wanted to go wide quickly where the midfield handling was slower with Faz at 10.

Either way a distinctly average performance against a Scottish side who were more than pumped up for it from minute 1

Although a word for Faz who continues to prove he's a world class player

 
Re: England
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
24 February, 2018 20:26
I agree with most of the above.

I would add 2 more points to the 6 by AB

1. I don't think the 3 locks strategy works, pick 2 of the 3 and have the third on the bench, the back row just looks unbalanced and it is time Eddie makes that decision

2. The England front row apart from Mako has to be the worst in attack by a country mile in international rugby, you look at other props and Hookers elsewhere and they carry ball in attack, compare that with the England front row where Cole and Hartley barely feature in attack. I did not even realise either guy was on the pitch outside of the set piece and that has to change, there are starting to be too many passengers in this England team

 
Re: England
King Zak (IP Logged)
24 February, 2018 20:34
At what point will Jones admit he got it wrong? (IMHO, never). Two names,Ashton, Armand - that will never feature on an England team sheet under Jones, yet could bring such a different, positive, approach!



Nous sommes l'armée noir et rouge !

 
Re: England
Rolls (IP Logged)
24 February, 2018 21:24
I thought we were better with Faz at 10 and Wiggy at 9, maybe I’m just being biased, I don’t want to be though. I don’t think EJ will change anything, that would be too much of an admission that he got it wrong. How about Woodburn and Armand to come in?

 
Re: England
vap (IP Logged)
24 February, 2018 21:41
I don't expect him to change anything either.
RFU add two years to his contract and the wheels come off. But he still thinks that everything he does is brilliant . Tragically predictable. Bad for we paying supporters, but imagine how bad it must be to be Goode or Armand. Maybe he's really still working for Australia? ....

 
Re: England
sarricen (IP Logged)
24 February, 2018 23:22
Somethings not quite right with Maro. On the one hand he gets through a lot of work but on the other hand that isn’t what made him so special up until the beginning of this season.

Maybe he’s a bit out of form, maybe he’s tired, maybe he’s just struggled to adapt to the new laws which have completely nullified him as a threat at the breakdown. Tbh I think getting dropped could be a blessing in disguise for him, give him a kick up the @#$%& to rediscover his awesome form.

I’m not saying he hasn’t played to an international level. He has. But he was more than that last season and the season before

 
Re: England
OldMarovian (IP Logged)
24 February, 2018 23:39
Quote:
AB
agree totally.
1) remove Hartley permanently
2) remove Brown permanently
3) replace JJ - completely ineffectual
4) Danny Care had a stinker - time to introdudc Robson
5) Hughes is a big lump who adds nothing and clearly wasn't fit.
6) Watson also had a stinker

Not sure I agree with 5 & 6. Hughes certainly adds something IMO. Jones started Billy against Ireland last year when he wasn't ready and it showed. I think he did the same today with Hughes. Watson offered something in attack at least. I'd add:

7) Ford was terrible and spent the first forty kicking the ball to Scotland finest counter-attacking talents.
8) Underhill maybe be a talented chap but his defence orientated skillset doesn't suit the bench IMO.

 
Re: England
John Tee (IP Logged)
25 February, 2018 08:27
Quote:
OldMarovian
Quote:
AB
agree totally.
1) remove Hartley permanently
2) remove Brown permanently
3) replace JJ - completely ineffectual
4) Danny Care had a stinker - time to introdudc Robson
5) Hughes is a big lump who adds nothing and clearly wasn't fit.
6) Watson also had a stinker

Not sure I agree with 5 & 6. Hughes certainly adds something IMO. Jones started Billy against Ireland last year when he wasn't ready and it showed. I think he did the same today with Hughes. Watson offered something in attack at least. I'd add:

7) Ford was terrible and spent the first forty kicking the ball to Scotland finest counter-attacking talents.
8) Underhill maybe be a talented chap but his defence orientated skillset doesn't suit the bench IMO.

I think Jones was desperate to play Hughes who clearly wasn't fit...and it didn't come off.
Scotland playing like that would exhaust most forwards let alone one of them who hasnt played for weeks and was rushed back.
On his day, Hughes will offer what BV took many England games to achieve but not when he is clearly way off the pace fitness wise.
Expect to see more teams try and rattle England and when they do, watch Ford disappear. I would offer yesterday was a bad day at the office for a lot of players, in that so much went wrong with a team not in sync, but dont think the best sides won't play like Scotland in trying to disrupt England's structure and when they do, our pattern can't cope with chaos.
You need players who can see a way past that and play what is on the table rather than adhere to a plan that has fallen apart.
Jones has got a record that protects him against people who can see and say it isn't going to work against the best.
He must be hoping to avoid Nz but I'd be worried about the others at the RWC... He can't avoid then all.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 25/02/2018 08:40 by John Tee.

 
Re: England
londondoc (IP Logged)
25 February, 2018 08:45
As a Scots Sarrie I am of course delighted. Having said that I am a bit worried about some of our players. Thought Maro was anonymous and Mako showed none of his handling skills. Owen had reasonable game and Sean was of course superb! Jamie and George were brought on too late to make any difference.
Thank goodness today we are all on same side again.

 
Re: England
Convex Hull (IP Logged)
25 February, 2018 10:20
Some other sites are reporting that the England team were saying that the midweek training session was the toughest ever. A couple of athletics coaches questioned the wisdom of having a very physical training session in between a six day turnaround.

Eddie has a long history of being stubborn, and for injuries to bite him in the bum, hope the rest of the (Saracens) coaching team can talk some sense into him.



Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?

 
Re: England
Innings (IP Logged)
25 February, 2018 10:59
Eddie's recipe: select players who are clearly not good enough, and others who are not normally players in the shirt numbers you give them. Appoint a captain whom every thinking man in Britain can see is only a captain when captaincy is easy, and disappears when it isn't. Refuse to consider the possibility that you ever do any of these things. The results became clear yesterday.

In my banking days, the soundest investment advice was: Rising tides float all boats, but when the tide changes you see who's swimming with no costume. The TMO threw Eddie a towel to cover his nakedness at the last moment against Wales, but yesterday there was no towel, except the one that England threw in.

Two things now really confirm to me that Hartley - if he's involved - is a major part of the reason why England will not win the next RWC. One was the the first half against Italy last year, when his captaincy fell part in the face of a tactic he'd never seen before. The second was yesterday, when his captaincy fell apart in the face of a pressure that was entirely foreseen by everybody, but which he was unable to handle.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
Re: England
1876-Fez (IP Logged)
25 February, 2018 11:18
Quote:
Convex Hull
Some other sites are reporting that the England team were saying that the midweek training session was the toughest ever. A couple of athletics coaches questioned the wisdom of having a very physical training session in between a six day turnaround.
Eddie has a long history of being stubborn, and for injuries to bite him in the bum, hope the rest of the (Saracens) coaching team can talk some sense into him.

6 day turn around? Last played on 10th Feb.



SUPPORT Help for Heroes:
Help for Heroes

 
Re: England
PhillFez (IP Logged)
25 February, 2018 11:22
Sad to say I agree with most of the above. Leadership was lacking all round. On reflection the first half against Italy last year was the first example. Jones has done a good job but needs to show leadership and adapt to the current position. As with a bad ref performance I don't like to whinge in defeat but until some other explanation is forthcoming the above stands.

 
Re: England
OldMarovian (IP Logged)
25 February, 2018 11:26
Quote:
Innings
In my banking days, the soundest investment advice was: Rising tides float all boats, but when the tide changes you see who's swimming with no costume.

I have just been invited to participate in something called EJ Investments. They offer a money up front, no guaranteed return investment based on a buy high, sell low strategy.

Not sure it's one for me ...

 
Re: England
Convex Hull (IP Logged)
25 February, 2018 11:36
Quote:
1876-Fez
Quote:
Convex Hull
Some other sites are reporting that the England team were saying that the midweek training session was the toughest ever. A couple of athletics coaches questioned the wisdom of having a very physical training session in between a six day turnaround.
Eddie has a long history of being stubborn, and for injuries to bite him in the bum, hope the rest of the (Saracens) coaching team can talk some sense into him.

6 day turn around? Last played on 10th Feb.

I guess that is an indication of my level of interest in the international game, I repeated what the person wrote.

I was watching La Boheme live from the Met yesterday evening, although I did record the match. The second act of La Boheme, as you probably know, is all about vanity and the ability to behave outrageously if they are good looking. Unfortunately the libretto fell some way short, as they were the largest collection of mingers that I have ever seen in an opera.

Getting back to rugby, I gather the England team looked exhausted, and was postulating that it may be linked to what they claimed has been 'their toughest training session ever'.

smiling smiley



Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?

 
Re: England
Seany_Boy0511 (IP Logged)
25 February, 2018 11:49
Maro and Mako have got through ban awful lot of rugby recently I'm not surprised they are not at th very top of their game, Scotland deserve credit where it is due, disappointing result but let's not get carried away with blaming players Rugby is a team game not an individual one, and they are an incredibly talented bunch of players, for once the Scots out played the English and this was always going to be a tough game for England to win

Hopefully it's the kick up the backside England need and they bounce back from it

 
Re: England
maynas (IP Logged)
25 February, 2018 14:13
Quote:
Seany_Boy0511
Maro and Mako have got through ban awful lot of rugby recently I'm not surprised they are not at th very top of their game,

2 games in 4 weeks not so hard!

 
Re: England
John Tee (IP Logged)
25 February, 2018 14:32
I don't think you can repair that damage with the right attitude and intensity alone. And if you could it may beat the Scots but not the best...which we must assume we will come up against to win the RWC.

We are too dependent on the structure working but international teams must have more about them than have to go into half time to get corrective instructions.
The game was lost by half time.

In a lot of ways yesterday was about the wheels coming off in one game....but those symptoms will also be an issue as teams are asking us more questions than we can solve.
Our inability to think is depressing...always has been.
Jones doesn't think we have players to do it...Doesn't trust them, so he sets out his game plan and when we can't make that work, we are adrift.

The win record has papered over these lessons but we've had enough warnings...

 
Re: England
primavesi (IP Logged)
26 February, 2018 09:47
Very disappointing performance, although one I am inclined to put down to a bad day rather than reading too much into it. The response against France is crucial and will give us a good indication of where we really are.

As some others have said, we just seemed really off in almost every area, losing all the collisions, not protecting the rucks, poor passing, missed tackles etc. We were wondering if the team had come down with something, they just seemed so out of sorts physically. Yes, we didn´t get the rub of the green, but it is pointless moaning about that and refereeing decisions when we were so clearly 2nd best. You dont deserve to win a match when you make it so easy for the other team to win turnovers. I don´t think I can ever remember a game with so many penalties for holding on.

I really like Watson but defensively his positional play seems like a real weakness. Both Scotland and Italy have had a lot of joy down his wing. Not saying he should be dropped, but it needs to be worked on urgently.

 
Re: England
OldMarovian (IP Logged)
26 February, 2018 12:10
What frustrates me most and we saw it to a large degree with our game against Leicester at the weekend is that Scotland played exactly how pretty much any arm-chair supporter (Sm150)
would have told you they were going to play. The loss to Ireland was the same too.

All three games had the opposition playing very well but the England/Sarries team not only going into the game without any plan to neutralise the opposition's strengths but actively playing into them.

Russell and Hogg are excellent counter-attackers. Here's an idea, don't kick the ball long to them (ditto Veianu!)

Opposition has great breakdown skills. One up runners with single clearers is probably not going to cut it.

They know this stuff so why????

 
Re: England
John Tee (IP Logged)
26 February, 2018 13:52
Quote:
OldMarovian
What frustrates me most and we saw it to a large degree with our game against Leicester at the weekend is that Scotland played exactly how pretty much any arm-chair supporter (Sm150) would have told you they were going to play. The loss to Ireland was the same too.

All three games had the opposition playing very well but the England/Sarries team not only going into the game without any plan to neutralise the opposition's strengths but actively playing into them.

Russell and Hogg are excellent counter-attackers. Here's an idea, don't kick the ball long to them (ditto Veianu!)

Opposition has great breakdown skills. One up runners with single clearers is probably not going to cut it.

They know this stuff so why????

I don't believe they do...because they need a half time break to get directions. I think England have always tradionally played Sq pegs and round holes so thinking for yourself is not something they can work with.
They don't have analytical skills on the pitch and they can't apply it.
If they do know it, they can't apply it on the fly.

The Italian game was a case in point. Rabbits in headlights. I think last Saturday was the same
..as was Ireland when we lost.
Not once did anyone act like they knew what was going on and they definitely didn't act like they could fix it.

We don't have those sort of leaders.....


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