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Eddie Jones listens
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 18:13
........to the clamour.

Don Armand included in England squad.

[www.bbc.co.uk]

 
Re: Eddie Jones listens
The Bard (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 18:27
But no Dan Robson...

 
Re: Eddie Jones listens
Rolls (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 18:33
Isiekwe and Loz recalled to squad

 
Re: Eddie Jones listens
Innings (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 20:07
He might listen a whole lot more if France win in Wales, Scotland win in Italy and England fail to get even an LBP against Ireland. Fifth in the 6N? When was the last time that happened?

As this 6N has unfolded, I have begun to realise that EJ is floundering. He has more players, more access to them than most international coaches, and has had over 25 games with them. But has he found a settled squad or any of the other aspects that make a contender for RWC? To me, the last two games are no better than anything we saw from squads coached by Sl or MJ. Admittedly, EJ hasn't made the more egregious selection howlers that those were in the habit of delivering, but even so, the overall standard, with better players, is the same or worse.

With Argentina and France in our RWC pool, there is even the risk of pool-stage elimination again.

I hope I'm being too gloomy about what I've seen in this 6N, but just now England are clearly further from looking forward winning RWC 2019 than any side since 2003.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
Re: Eddie Jones listens
BarnetSarrie (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 22:27
Innings I read what you are saying and in some senses I absolutely agree - but I think it is a little bleak. For me the issue is we have to not to be one trick ponies. We have to be able to play in different ways. That is the essence of a really good team. Eddie has actually put together a good squad, it's just that it's all too one dimensional. England don't adapt to play a different way if the opponent gets the upper hand. If you are playing a less forward oriented team, you can afford to play Faz at 12 - with Ford at 10, but you just cant do that against a big bullying forward pack. It isn't news - that has been obvious for at least three years. Put Owen back at 10. Let him do what he does best. If you are being bullied at the breakdown, what is the point of sending singleton players in to compete - adapt. Use a pod. It may not give the space out wide, but opportunities will come. Chip and chase. Havent we learnt all of this at Sarries already - a few seasons ago, we were worked out. But our coaches encouraged the boys to play what was in front of them and USE THEIR BRAINS and experience. This England team has good players - it has intelligent rugby brains. Trust them. Please let's move away from a big carrying forward with players running off repeatedly. Rugby can be so much more sophisticated than that!
Find a full back that actually reads the field - a communicator who tells the rest of the boys where the space is or where the attack is coming from. It isnt all about defence - it isnt all about speed. OK so it may not be Goodey - but there ARE good full backs available.
England havent become a bad team overnight. That is totally unfair. What they have become is a team that has been worked out and hasnt been given the opportunity to adapt. That IS Eddie's fault. So is the over training and the fact that they are 'beasted' - their own words and I have heard it over and over again in the past few months from those in the know - before they even play the games. Fitness is one thing - knackeredness and mental exhaustion is another. I know he wants tough guys, but they are human beings. A bit of encouragement and positivity in team spirit is a better tonic than improved numbers on a computer or graph.
We havent become a bad team overnight. But you are right - Eddie needs to stop dictating and start listening.

 
Re: Eddie Jones listens
Innings (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 22:59
I think, BS, that the charge that he is beasting the squad is utterly, obviously, correct.

Half the players are exhausted in mind and body before the game has got going, and none has the energy to think about playing what's in front of themselves. When tiredness sets in, the default mode is to revert to the drills and ignore the options.

Leadership doesn't happen becuase Ej says it must: it happens because players are encouraged to think for themselves, play the game as it unfolds and dare to take risks.

When the coach tries to drill everything into the players they are also being drilled not to think, and that has shown in three key games of EJ's tenure, Italy last year and the last two games this time. The Italy game was so clearly a demonstration of lack of thought or leadership that even the commentators were laughing when Haskell asked the referee what he had to do to stop Italy. The failure against Scotland was a pitiful display of being out-thought, out-played and out-muscled. So what doe EJ do? He picks the same side, to all intents and purposes, to play the same way. As Einstein almost certainly never said: The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
Re: Eddie Jones listens
BarnetSarrie (IP Logged)
12 March, 2018 00:09
I think then Innings - we are in complete agreement. Except perhaps in gloominess levels. I think this tournament should be the step we need to stop using wilting laurels to prop us up and hopefully encourage a rethink - though not a chucking of the baby and the bathwater. (Besides we dont have time for that, and it isnt necessary). The beasting and reports from camp are from multiple well informed sources, some relayed with a sense of pride, ie: its going to make them/us fitter - some though tell you with a sense of resignation - and like you, I am in no doubt that the reports are true.

 
Re: Eddie Jones listens
Innings (IP Logged)
12 March, 2018 00:23
But does EJ's record of never holding down a coaching job for more than four years inspire you to believe that he has a re-think capacity?



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
Re: Eddie Jones listens
Seany_Boy0511 (IP Logged)
12 March, 2018 07:13
I think personally England can sort this out, yes it's been a poor 6N but we still have a year to get it right before RWC 2019... And the players are capable of being world beaters, Eddie needs a plan B as quite clearly plan A has been found out

 
Re: Eddie Jones listens
AlanE (IP Logged)
12 March, 2018 07:55
He needs a Plan C - Plan A included Billy and a better starter 9 than Danny Care. Plan B included a fit Nathan Hughes - and he isn't.

A fit Billy might have covered up what is still a flawed back row.

And on the thread subject, I'm not really sure Eddie has listened - Don Armand is 'last man standing' and he still has to emerge from a group of 17 forwards, 7 of whom can play back row (mostly out of position)



I was 17 miles from Graybridge before I was caught by the school leopard



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/03/2018 08:02 by AlanE.

 
Re: Eddie Jones listens
nedrichards (IP Logged)
12 March, 2018 09:58
Asked if Irish provinces’ approach at the breakdown gives their national side an advantage, Jones said: “It’s pretty obvious. There are obviously similarities [between England and the Premiership clubs]. The French contest hard at the breakdown and the Pro14 sides contest hard at the breakdown, so they get used to playing that sort of game.

“It’s not a club problem. It is our problem. I can’t blame the Premiership. We’ve got our problems that we’ve got to sort out at international level. We’ve got to break old habits first, then introduce new habits. It’s the hardest thing to do.”
From an armand related article.

Not entirely clear to me why the RFU can't actually just tell the referees to ref like they do in Europe, or be dropped until they find someone who does. That's the issue. When Sarries tried to 'compete hard at the breakdown' in the first part of the season we were whistled off the ball. It'll hurt your ball in play time, number of tries and all the other 'entertainment' and fitness metrics but you get the game you referee for.

 
Re: Eddie Jones listens
primavesi (IP Logged)
12 March, 2018 10:30
I was at the game. I still need to watch it back on tv but the main conclusion we had at the time was that the players were absolutely knackered. Guys like Mako, Farrell, Itoje have been playing non stop rugby at the very top level (internationals, lions tours, champions cup knockout games etc) for 2-3 years pretty much non stop.

I do not think we have suddenly become bad players, lost the technique to compete well at the breakdowns or make yards when ball carrying (although obviously we miss Billy V hugely). I just think those aspects are hugely energy sapping and it is noticeable how we have faded in the 2nd half of games in this 6 nations.

There is no obvious solution, but I personally would not take any of our lions players on the South Africa tour. Let them lie on a beach for 6 weeks and come back fresh next season. That should also help us identify some much needed back up in key positions for when the injuries inevitably come.

 
Re: Eddie Jones listens
#wolfpack (IP Logged)
12 March, 2018 10:43
Quote:
primavesi
I was at the game. I still need to watch it back on tv but the main conclusion we had at the time was that the players were absolutely knackered. Guys like Mako, Farrell, Itoje have been playing non stop rugby at the very top level (internationals, lions tours, champions cup knockout games etc) for 2-3 years pretty much non stop.
I do not think we have suddenly become bad players, lost the technique to compete well at the breakdowns or make yards when ball carrying (although obviously we miss Billy V hugely). I just think those aspects are hugely energy sapping and it is noticeable how we have faded in the 2nd half of games in this 6 nations.

There is no obvious solution, but I personally would not take any of our lions players on the South Africa tour. Let them lie on a beach for 6 weeks and come back fresh next season. That should also help us identify some much needed back up in key positions for when the injuries inevitably come.


Agree with all the above. England are not a bad team, but they have lost a bit of dynamism in the most explosive parts of the game (winning the gainline, winning the breakdown). For me, that is due to injury and fatigue.

Another solution is for EJ to stop his ridiculous training sessions.

 
Re: Eddie Jones listens
Sara'sman (IP Logged)
12 March, 2018 11:11
My 2ps worth - I'd echo many of the points others have made, particularly about fatigue and coaching. And add that I've always believed Jones has a very short shelf life!

Quite why the players are being subjected to so much exhausting training in the middle of the season defeats me. The injuries it has caused seem unprecedented and the state the players are left in for the matches suggests nothing has been learnt from the strength and conditioning debacle of the World Cup. Then players like Hughes and Haskell are not released to gain much needed match fitness after lengthy layoffs.

But coaching must be questioned. Breakdown issues were obvious after the first rounds of the Champions Cup but Jones/Gustard/Borthwick have failed to solve the issue - in fact I'd suggest even address the matter. For all the talk of 1-3-3-1 or 3-2-3 pods or the excellent analysis by Dan Pugsley here England have consistently failed to get supporting players quickly to the breakdown - a selection and coaching failure.

Refereeing interpretations will concern us in our QF - watch how Leinster "occupy the space"/"affect the clearout" at breakdowns to enable others to make turnovers and contrast to how well Dickson refereed this yesterday (e.g. penalising Chiefs No 3 around 26 min, Falcons on 60). But we should know what is coming in this area and train accordingly (if we have any back row left). And so should England have done. There is nothing gained in bleating about a referee's interpretation when you know what to expect and it is applied consistently. Coach for it!

 
Re: Eddie Jones listens
JO'G (IP Logged)
12 March, 2018 12:02
There seems to be many stories of Eddie having a similar record

1. First 2 years - works the guys hard and gets them up to be more efficient, working better together - good results

2. Second 2 years - tries to get another uplift in effort - that simply doesn't happen because the guys are too knackered to pay attention to the game analysis - ends up with worse results than in the first 2 years

so there are 2 options:

1) bring in new players who will be happy to be uplifted

2) Get Eddie to sack himself for 9 months - then come in for the 6 nations next year and the initial uplift again (Sm161)

 
Re: Eddie Jones listens
Innings (IP Logged)
12 March, 2018 19:49
Getting back to the thread's title, listening, hearing, understanding and bringing about the needed changes are all part of the necessary process. If it's take three 6N campaigns to realise that something's that wrong, why be confident that he can listen, hear, understand, learn and act with just one 6N season to go?

I fear that Sarries are about to receive back their prize assets mentally shot, physically knackered and none in position to take us anywhere for the remainder of the season.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
Re: Eddie Jones listens
Huxley (IP Logged)
13 March, 2018 08:04
I agree Innings, I can’t see, with the exception of Faz, how any of our England internationals are going to be ready to play against Quins. They look jaded, although it’s hard to tell with Mako, I always think he looks knackered when he walks on to the pitch!

 
Re: Eddie Jones listens
#wolfpack (IP Logged)
13 March, 2018 08:35
I also agree.

Owen has been the only one of our England contingent who has looked anything like their normal selves this season. George Kruis has gone from starting Lions lock to fighting for a place in the Sarries side!

I would rather none of them played against Quins, but that isn't going to happen because the team needs a run out before Leinster and we need the points. I could see Mako and Maro being given the week off though. Mako in particular looks like he is running on empty.

If we sneak past Leinster it will be an enormous achievement.

 
Re: Eddie Jones listens
Seany_Boy0511 (IP Logged)
13 March, 2018 16:04
It's a different set up at Sarries, different coaching and all round different atmosphere, yes Maro and Mako need a rest but the others should be fine

 
Re: Eddie Jones listens
John Tee (IP Logged)
15 March, 2018 08:49
I don't think he is listening.... The same issues remain and he refuses to change.
Obtuse, pig headed, stubborn. And single minded.
All of those can be characteristics that you'd want but it also seems he does not care how he achieves his goals.
This is the way to lose a dressing room.
In football he'd be very close to being gone.
Rugby is more subservient... At leady publically.
I can't imagine many DoR are liking the way things are atm


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