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Coincidence?
The Bard (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 19:56
That England are struggling in the six nations after the English clubs had their worst European campaign in years?
If it isnít a coincidence, who does the blame lay with and what is the solution?

 
Re: Coincidence?
Innings (IP Logged)
11 March, 2018 20:13
Stop the ridiculous schedules, dictated by the TV and money, that the AP clubs face.
Stop expecting players at the top level to play the regular season, summer tour, AIs and 6N.

How many players who would be inked selections for their club are injured at this moment? How many players who would want to be thought of in international squad selection meetings are injured at this moment? How many top-level players look knackered before the games start?



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
Re: Coincidence?
Seany_Boy0511 (IP Logged)
12 March, 2018 07:14
I don't believe you need 4 tests in November, that's just over the top in my opinion

 
Re: Coincidence?
VR1997 (IP Logged)
12 March, 2018 08:59
Yes Sean 4 tests this Autumn which is one more than usual.

Rumania coming into the 6/7 nations has also been talked about for the future.

Saxons being re introduced next seaso so more pressure on clubs.

Eddie also stated earlier in the season that he wanted dual matches on the summer tour with 70 to 75 players making the trip. Don't know whether that has materialised or not.

lets just get this International week over and then the fans can see something like their real team.

Go Sarries

 
Re: Coincidence?
#wolfpack (IP Logged)
12 March, 2018 09:38
Innings is absolutely right. It's injury and fatigue.

This England side is not a bad side at all. Even without Billy, the pack of forwards that started on Saturday were easily good enough to win the gain line and win the breakdown. Afterall, they have been doing it for their clubs for the last couple of years. I don't buy the whole 'no 7' argument - Saracens don't play with a 7 and have been second only to the ABs over the last 2 years.

I can't remember the exact stats that were going around before the last HC group stage, but it was something like the Irish Lions players have played 40% of the number of minutes that the English Lions players have played this season.

That, plus Eddie Jones's absurd '40% fitter' brutal training seshs throughout the season, is the reason why England lack the dynamism that they used to have.

Solution? None in the short term. They're not going to throw the game against the Irish, then the week after Saracens have an important game against Quins and then the week after they have the biggest game of the season against Leinster.

Long term - scrap the summer tours, play 3 games in the Autumn (with 1 against a Tier 2 nation), scrap the Eddie Jones' mid season training camps, scrap playing competitive games during the international periods (because otherwise the international players have to play when they come back to make up for the lost points during the international window), introduce a rule whereby no player should play for England unless they've had at least 80 minutes for their club in the two preceding weeks (so poor old Nathan Hughes doesn't come back from injury too early, go to straight into an international, to get injured immediately).

 
Re: Coincidence?
Seany_Boy0511 (IP Logged)
12 March, 2018 16:40
Wolfpack, I don't always agree with your points but on this occasion I'm 100% with you, especially the last point re coming back from injury too soon. It's no wonder the Injuries are so high this season, and not just for Sarries

 
Re: Coincidence?
Innings (IP Logged)
12 March, 2018 17:29
RFU Bank Balance: Troi points
Club needs: Un point
Player welfare: Nul points.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
Re: Coincidence?
BarnetSarrie (IP Logged)
12 March, 2018 17:59
Quote:
VR1997
Yes Sean 4 tests this Autumn which is one more than usual.
Rumania coming into the 6/7 nations has also been talked about for the future.

Saxons being re introduced next seaso so more pressure on clubs.

Eddie also stated earlier in the season that he wanted dual matches on the summer tour with 70 to 75 players making the trip. Don't know whether that has materialised or not.

lets just get this International week over and then the fans can see something like their real team.

Go Sarries

Are you kidding? Steve Brown must be a greedy, uncaring, short sighted man. He must be, given his evidently stupid decision to play four internationals next year "ĎThereís no question the customer would want four Tests and itís important that we meet that demand,í said Brown. ĎItís a great chance for us to play and commercially itís great for us." Yes Steve - why dont you carry on beating that poor donkey, until it collapses?

Yes Steve - great for the already grotesquely swollen coffers of the RFU, but not for the poor @#$%& who have to play extra games and who are already beaten up and have had no break for ages. Remember Steve they ARENT JUST ENGLAND PLAYERS - some played for the LIONS as well as well as for their CLUBS. Where is the joined up thinking in terms of welfare? There is no consideration for the poor @#$%& who have to fill in for them in their clubs and can't even rest up when they are injured, because their clubs dont have enough players AS IT IS to fill in for those who are 'selected' (I'm beginning to understand the full ramifications of that word by the way ....) to play for their country.

How would we cope - seriously HOW - if they even took ONE MORE player from us for the Saxons? This whole situation is utterly ridiculous!!!!! How would we have coped if we had to play ONE MORE WEEK deprived as we now are of 23 players - especially when it is a vicious circle and with each game, with already injured players having to don the shirt, we are losing on average two or three more?

I was looking up the definition of the word 'parasite' and it is a toe curlingly appropriate analogy ..... Parasites are organisms that live off a host organism. The parasite benefits from this arrangement, but the host suffers as a result. For example, tapeworms are parasites. They live inside another animal, attaching themselves to the hostís gut and absorbing its food. The host loses nutrition, and may develop weight loss, diarrhoea and vomiting. Parasites do not usually kill the host, as this would cut off their food supply.

Indeed. But they aren't half making the poor hosts suffer.

 
Re: Coincidence?
Dolph42 (IP Logged)
12 March, 2018 18:13
It should be remembered that the RFU don't 'choose' to have 4 AIs, they agree it with the clubs. Obviously some clubs are more affected by this than others. One can only hope that they use the Japan match as an opportunity to rest and rotate.

You also can't scrap summer tours as they are the NH travelling to reciprocate the SH doing so in Autumn. The actual long term answer is to centrally contract players so they play less club games, but that won't happen in England (or France). 11 Internationals, 6 - 9 Euros, 10 or so AP matches would be a reasonable schedule offering the right balance.

The Saxons only players 1 or 2 matches a season so playing on an AW Cup weekend is easy and won't affect clubs. One proposal that should be utilised is reducing the 6N rest weekends to one week. That would help clubs and players wouldn't be adversely affected given they play 3/4/7 weeks straight in AIs or RWC.

 
Re: Coincidence?
OldMarovian (IP Logged)
12 March, 2018 22:52
3 AIs
No International to play an International game before they play a club game (after return from injury)
Summer tours to be experimental. No players from the regular XV/23(?) of that seasons 6 Nations.
No International to start more than 6 Internationals a season.

Can't see it happening but that would be a start.

 
Re: Coincidence?
BarnetSarrie (IP Logged)
13 March, 2018 11:20
OM - That would be far too sensible. Of course that would help a bit but it seems we are going the opposite way. No the poor goose with the golden egg is going to have to keep on laying until it collapses.

Greed is a dreadful thing. That quote from Steve Brown made me realise just how little the RFU cares about the source of 'it's players' or how they get to be picked at International level in the first place. Why should he though? He is, after all, an Accountant and 'money man' himself. His first concern isnt the health of English rugby, it is the RFU's balance sheet! It infuriates me when people accuse the clubs and their chairmen of being 'money men'. There is no money at Club level in Rugby. Only people like Nigel who love the sport ever get involved. The best they could hope for is to get somewhere near break even!

Central contracts should never ever happen for so many reasons. If they treat the boys like this when at least they have to pay lipservice to the clubs, just imagine what they would do to them if they had complete control! There will be those who would argue that with one 'Master' they would be better off. Depends on the master, doesn't it? My own view is that if the RFU 'owned' the boys, they would just create more internationals because the 'customer would want it' and 'commercially its great' for them. And what kind of incentive is it to the clubs if they bring players through and invest time and money in their training, only to have them poached by the national side and never available to play? It is incredible that Saracens have somehow managed to win the trophies they have when they have the rug pulled out from under them every time they manage to get back up again. When are we ever going to be able to field anything even REMOTELY resembling a full team for more than a week and actually get back into the patterns of play we would want to?

Rant over. (Till the next time they leave us with broken players who somehow manage to drag themselves onto the pitch to play when they shouldn't have to - or send the ones they borrow back knackered.)

 
Re: Coincidence?
primavesi (IP Logged)
13 March, 2018 11:21
Split the premiership into 2 leagues of 8 professional teams, with 2 up 2 down each season.
This would mean 8 less matches per season, so no games during international windows and an additional rest week or 2. It would also massively improve the premiership as a product, with more teams over the two leagues but less one sided games.


This is the only solution to the "stop playing competitive games during internationals" point raised above if you accept that lengthening the season is unacceptable.

 
Re: Coincidence?
daz_71 (IP Logged)
13 March, 2018 13:13
Quote:
primavesi
Split the premiership into 2 leagues of 8 professional teams, with 2 up 2 down each season.
This would mean 8 less matches per season, so no games during international windows and an additional rest week or 2. It would also massively improve the premiership as a product, with more teams over the two leagues but less one sided games.


This is the only solution to the "stop playing competitive games during internationals" point raised above if you accept that lengthening the season is unacceptable.

I actually think this is a good suggestion however you then have to get agreement with the club owners re: compensation for the 4 home games they will be missing out on, assuming that means a drop in revenue.

 
Re: Coincidence?
BarnetSarrie (IP Logged)
13 March, 2018 13:21
And there you hit on the other elephant in the room Primavesi - the fact that the Clubs dont share the same interests as each other either. Who is going to persuade any of the Premiership clubs that they should be in either of the groups? What you suggest would make sense of course - but t will never happen. When the negotiations with the RFU about matches and player access take place - we all make the false assumption that the clubs agree wholeheartedly on what PRL's negotiating stance should be. But that agreement is itself a compromise - especially for clubs like Saracens. So by the time negotiations come round with the Union, it has already diluted our interests.
Looking at it in reverse - nobody like the Pay Offs but we have to have them to try to at least mitigate a little the unfairness of the current situation for the clubs who suffer most during the internationals. We could do away with them completely - freeing up two more weeks if somehow the number of internationals played were cut down to 7 not counting summer tour games. It would mean the title was really the reward for the best team over the whole season - the whole team, not half a team or less. It actually costs us money to get to semi's and finals - and it costs us money when we lose our players and they arent on the pitch or meeting and greeting each week, to ensure our support base continues to grow. They are our prime assets!
There are solutions - but the RFU and the other unions would never agree to any of them because they are lining their pockets quite nicely at Saracens' (particularly's) expense.

 
Re: Coincidence?
King Zak (IP Logged)
15 March, 2018 07:39
Quote:
primavesi
Split the premiership into 2 leagues of 8 professional teams, with 2 up 2 down each season.
This would mean 8 less matches per season, so no games during international windows and an additional rest week or 2. It would also massively improve the premiership as a product, with more teams over the two leagues but less one sided games.


This is the only solution to the "stop playing competitive games during internationals" point raised above if you accept that lengthening the season is unacceptable.

I like this idea but would probably not have any relegation. Iím not sure that there are currently 16 clubs truly capable of sustaining Premiership standard rugby!



Nous sommes l'armťe noir et rouge !

 
Re: Coincidence?
John Tee (IP Logged)
15 March, 2018 08:05
Wow...a lot of time Jones sentiment on here...which I tend to agree with.
The agreenent is too loaded in England's favour, so clubs must budget to be able to refuse the England/Rfu bribe when up for renewal.

Since the Rfu has the players...it can take in the money from more games and tours. Why would it not do that..
Clubs need to embolden their collective self interest and agree to release players in principle but not be forced to.
The 6n and the RWC are the only comps where clubs have to release... .the rest would be by sensible compromise eitb clubs and players interests.

At the moment the perception seems to be that England will do as they like with players and the club's have to foot the bill and make do if those players aren't available.

No club games during the 6n, and that would do away with the top four semis as there would be no need for it.

If the Rfu do not get collective agreement from.the clubs that own the players, then the premier league will evolve into a breakaway group and grab some of the power back.
I expect something along these lines in the next five years if things carry on this this.


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