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George Ford defence
Innings (IP Logged)
14 March, 2018 12:38
I saw it described against France as getting more hand-offs than a charity shop. At least a small smile to take out of the train wreck.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
Re: George Ford defence
JO'G (IP Logged)
14 March, 2018 14:44
Based on what I would call the normality of inclusion in a team - George has got to be worth -7 to -12 points over Farrell

this is based on my observations in the easy yards and front-foot ball he gives to the other side. Balanced against this is the 'extra' points his distribution and ball handling skills gives him over a normal 10 such as Farrell

So given England are struggling to score that many points anyway, the inclusion of George does seem to be a luxury we cannot afford

 
Re: George Ford defence
Adey (IP Logged)
14 March, 2018 19:20
But then you’ve just completely made up those figures. Again.

 
Re: George Ford defence
John Tee (IP Logged)
15 March, 2018 08:35
Ford plays because he offers something Farrell can't. Farrell plays because Jones wants to find a place in the team for him.
Ford is not worth his place because he is not delivering the points or getting the backs going. he hasn't done fir a while.
The Farrell Ford axis should be for specific game plans against certain sides.
I can see games where you may want both, but by the same token you'd drop Farrell to the bench and Ford altogether but that is something that Jones is loathe to try. That is why Jones has spent three seasons trying to make it work.

If we weren't taken apart by some teams,at the breakdown...and tbf, we haven't too often, that has meant that 10 -12 axis hasn't been the main focal point.
It is now because we are no nearer to sealing off the breakdown issue and people are saying where is plan B.

 
Re: George Ford defence
OldMarovian (IP Logged)
15 March, 2018 09:38
If you thought he was bad against France then a rewatch of the Scotland game will turn your hair white. Created problems for the defence throughout the game by not following the rush and creating dog-legs for the Scots to exploit. Backed out of tackles completely hoping someone else would make them (something he does a fair bit and isn't recorded as he hasn't failed to make a tackle)

Given he's currently a liability in both defence and attack it's hard to know why he's in the squad let alone XV. I suppose it gives Hartley company?

 
Re: George Ford defence
John Tee (IP Logged)
15 March, 2018 10:16
I've never thought Ford justified his billing. He hasn't torn it up for club either.
Whenever I watch him, he goes missing for quite a period of a game. not something you could level at Cipriani or Farrell. The former is no defensive dog but he'd cone slice in the attack and woukd figure and drive the team a lot more.
Farrell is always involved because he has a great appetite for the game and likes, relishes defence and getting stuck in.
I can't see why Ford has had so much game time over the years. I really can't.

 
Re: George Ford defence
1876-Fez (IP Logged)
15 March, 2018 13:13
Well we will see this Saturday!! But can't work out why he's even on the bench....



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Re: George Ford defence
OldMarovian (IP Logged)
15 March, 2018 15:18
Because no one else has been given any time 1876-Fez.

 
Re: George Ford defence
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
15 March, 2018 16:55
I can't remember when another potential 10 has been in the England squad! I don't count Slade as a potential 10.



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Re: George Ford defence
Innings (IP Logged)
15 March, 2018 19:48
I think you'll see a new 10 looked at over the summer. And as for never having seen one in an England squad, doesn't Alex Lozowski count?



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
Re: George Ford defence
John Tee (IP Logged)
15 March, 2018 21:20
Hmmm, wonder who that would be. Can't say lowzoski has been doing enough. Ditto Burns or Smith. So I think it will be Ford again. Ffs.

 
Re: George Ford defence
AlanE (IP Logged)
16 March, 2018 07:03
Joe Simmonds? He has only played a couple but has looked good; that should be enough for Eddie.



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Re: George Ford defence
Seany_Boy0511 (IP Logged)
16 March, 2018 13:13
Joe Simmonds looks like he could be potentially the real deal in the next few years I'd like to see him go on tour in the summer, but that is unlikely

 
Re: George Ford defence
OldMarovian (IP Logged)
16 March, 2018 16:36
Given the team he's been playing in I think young Smith has looked very good. Lozo is an option but he's not much younger than Ford so we wouldn't really be preparing the next generation.

 
Re: George Ford defence
Boooo (IP Logged)
18 March, 2018 18:24
George Ford may be poor in defence, but Farrell has missed more tackles than anyone else in the Six Nations.


17 – Owen Farrell missed 17 tackles in this year’s competition for England; only Luca Martin of Italy missed more in the same edition (20 in 2000).

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Re: George Ford defence
maynas (IP Logged)
18 March, 2018 18:30
Quote:
John Tee
Ford plays because he offers something Farrell can't. Farrell plays because Jones wants to find a place in the team for him.
Ford is not worth his place because he is not delivering the points or getting the backs going. he hasn't done fir a while.
The Farrell Ford axis should be for specific game plans against certain sides.
I can see games where you may want both, but by the same token you'd drop Farrell to the bench and Ford altogether but that is something that Jones is loathe to try. That is why Jones has spent three seasons trying to make it work.

If we weren't taken apart by some teams,at the breakdown...and tbf, we haven't too often, that has meant that 10 -12 axis hasn't been the main focal point.
It is now because we are no nearer to sealing off the breakdown issue and people are saying where is plan B.

I think to be fair Ford can do nothing behind a useless pack, indeed the whole back line suffer behind a bunch of tired forwards steadily giving away penalties rather than quick ball. Only forward who looked worth his place all match was Haskell, amazing no one wants him for next season.

 
Re: George Ford defence
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
19 March, 2018 16:44
Quote:
Boooo
George Ford may be poor in defence, but Farrell has missed more tackles than anyone else in the Six Nations.

17 – Owen Farrell missed 17 tackles in this year’s competition for England; only Luca Martin of Italy missed more in the same edition (20 in 2000).

Link
[www.rugbypass.com]

Working link - [www.rugbypass.com]

JO'G will still argue that all of Faz's missed tackles are in the act of stopping attacks with the rush defence, and all of Ford's completed tackles only come after he's been driven back 10m, and that the difference between them is worth 40 points. Or some cack like that. Let's wait and see. smiling smiley

 
Re: George Ford defence
OldMarovian (IP Logged)
19 March, 2018 17:35
QP you only have to actually watch the games rather than rely on the stats to see that is indeed the case on many of the instances if missed tackles by Farrell. Players knocked back and a secondary tackle completed by another play, players knocked back who lose the ball in contact (7 in the 6 Nations all counted as "missed" tackles but in fact turnovers) players not tackled to the ground but then got on the secondary tackle, tackles missed because his primary aim as the point of the blitz is to close down space outside the player rather than effect contact, etc None of that isn't to say that misses of his haven't been costly but only an idiot just looks at the stat and determines that means he is one of the worst defenders in the 6 Nations.

Watch Ford for a game and the ground he gives up in the tackle is the least of his problems. Backing out of tackles so other players have to make them, breaking continuity in the defensive line because he doesn't fancy making contact with his "player" etc

 
Re: George Ford defence
John Tee (IP Logged)
19 March, 2018 19:26
Quote:
OldMarovian
QP you only have to actually watch the games rather than rely on the stats to see that is indeed the case on many of the instances if missed tackles by Farrell. Players knocked back and a secondary tackle completed by another play, players knocked back who lose the ball in contact (7 in the 6 Nations all counted as "missed" tackles but in fact turnovers) players not tackled to the ground but then got on the secondary tackle, tackles missed because his primary aim as the point of the blitz is to close down space outside the player rather than effect contact, etc None of that isn't to say that misses of his haven't been costly but only an idiot just looks at the stat and determines that means he is one of the worst defenders in the 6 Nations.
Watch Ford for a game and the ground he gives up in the tackle is the least of his problems. Backing out of tackles so other players have to make them, breaking continuity in the defensive line because he doesn't fancy making contact with his "player" etc

OM, I'm no real fan of Ford, and have been plenty critical, not least because Wasps 10 does everything Ford can and some and can even operate around a less physical forward line and still run a game off scraps... But I don't see anyone avoiding tackles..more of they would prefer someone else making them.
There is some sense in this as no one needs a key playmaker injured. I think the scrag type tackle is ok but you are right Ford invariably loses more yards than anyone, which means support had to run back further to support. This will have a cumulative effect throughout 80 mins.
I wouldn't mind this so much if he was worth the points but he also goes missing for large sections of the game.
You'll hardly hear his name or know he was on the pitch.
I really don't know how he has got away with it...
Never did much at Bath and hadn't set Tigers a light either.

Very unimpressed when we have better 10's available. Imo.

 
Re: George Ford defence
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
19 March, 2018 19:56
Quote:
OldMarovian
QP you only have to actually watch the games rather than rely on the stats to see that is indeed the case on many of the instances if missed tackles by Farrell. Players knocked back and a secondary tackle completed by another play, players knocked back who lose the ball in contact (7 in the 6 Nations all counted as "missed" tackles but in fact turnovers) players not tackled to the ground but then got on the secondary tackle, tackles missed because his primary aim as the point of the blitz is to close down space outside the player rather than effect contact, etc None of that isn't to say that misses of his haven't been costly but only an idiot just looks at the stat and determines that means he is one of the worst defenders in the 6 Nations.
Watch Ford for a game and the ground he gives up in the tackle is the least of his problems. Backing out of tackles so other players have to make them, breaking continuity in the defensive line because he doesn't fancy making contact with his "player" etc

I do watch the games thank you, and the fact is that Farrell does indeed miss a few which are 'worth missing' thanks to him helping to halt an attack.

It's this daft view of Ford's defence that makes me laugh. It's no coincidence that it's only on this forum that you see it mentioned, never mind over-egged constantly.

 
Re: George Ford defence
OldMarovian (IP Logged)
19 March, 2018 21:08
I'll be honest QP before watching this 6 Nations games in much more depth because of the number of people mentioning how bad Farrells defence was (and me wanting to clarify how bad it actually is or isn't) I hadn't thought much about Fords defence beyond the fact that he is obviously a smaller player and gets targetted and that whilst he gives away ground he is limpet-like in the tackle and as it's not unusual for two-men tackles to be affected to get players to ground whether or not Ford is one of the tacklers not a huge issue. So in my view he got a pass for doing his best and generally fronting up.

Only in really watching the defensive sets did I get an idea just how big a problem his hesitancy in the defensive line is or how many tackles he simply steps out of to let someone else make (including on the try line for fish-singers sake!) all of that getting a pass as his stats look good. Ho-hum.

 
Re: George Ford defence
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
19 March, 2018 21:21
Go on then, how many tackles does he step away from?

 
Re: George Ford defence
Roger G (IP Logged)
20 March, 2018 07:05
I don't see the point of arguing the specific stats, which can probably be made to tell any story you like. Ford, as a smaller man, will always be more of a target and shouldn't really be expected to tackle as often or as effectively as somebody like Faz. The circumstances of individual tackles (made or missed) can only be observed by watching a game, not just the numbers, and even then a range of opinions about the resulting effect of their tackling will be wide, particularly as none of us knows what instructions the coaches gave them (e.g. "George, you know you're not going to stop the second rows so avoid getting yourself injured and let somebody bigger deal with them").

 
Re: George Ford defence
Huxley (IP Logged)
20 March, 2018 08:26
62% of all statistics are made up....

 
Re: George Ford defence
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
20 March, 2018 10:00
The only set of numbers that matter in a rugby match are the ones on the scoreboard when the final whistle goes.

If it was all down to stats team selection would be done by an algorithm. Clearly perceptions of player performance are very subjective but those perceptions are usually well founded. I can't see how anybody could sensibly equate Faz and Ford's defensive prowess.

Similarly, Faz may not have the best kicking stats but is there anyone you'd rather be taking a 79th minute penalty kick to win the match in a cup final?

 
Re: George Ford defence
Sara'sman (IP Logged)
20 March, 2018 10:06
I sometimes think I'm the only Ford fan across these boards - certainly more so than most others either on here, Tiggs' or Bath's boards. IMO he's not that dissimilar to (our) Charlie - not a turnstile in the tackle, more a speed bump until the cavalry arrive; a decent kicker with the occasional offday; great passing skills especially behind a good pack.

He's not perfect, few are! But how many of the Brown bashers are now seeing Watson's weakness in defence rather than his attacking skills, and aware again of Brown's defensive solidity. If we didn't have Faz, I for one would prefer Ford to any other current English FH, defensive frailties and all.

If you wish to know a Ford who is a total waste of money just watch his brother. On well over £100k at Carnegie I endured a season of him demonstrating every conceivable failing.

 
Re: George Ford defence
OldMarovian (IP Logged)
20 March, 2018 17:29
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
Go on then, how many tackles does he step away from?

A couple in the Scotland game alone which is the one I looked through in most detail. Excluding the two line breaks because he breaks the defensive lines continuity.

Unlike Sara'sman I wouldn't have Ford anywhere near the club. Both Cipriani and Smith ahead of him for me and I'd back a fit Burns too although the likelihood of that happening seems ever diminishing.

 
Re: George Ford defence
John Tee (IP Logged)
21 March, 2018 13:48
Quote:
OldMarovian
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
Go on then, how many tackles does he step away from?

A couple in the Scotland game alone which is the one I looked through in most detail. Excluding the two line breaks because he breaks the defensive lines continuity.

Unlike Sara'sman I wouldn't have Ford anywhere near the club. Both Cipriani and Smith ahead of him for me and I'd back a fit Burns too although the likelihood of that happening seems ever diminishing.

agree, OM, I don't see Ford's value because it is not on display often enough.
Missing in too many England games in that for large parts of them you won't know he is playing. Maybe part of that defensive cherrypicking..??
Cipriani gets called out for it....but since he came back from injury, you will not see a game where he hadn't put in a defensive shift, even if targeted.

Plus.. He is always majorly instrumental in adding points so is light years ahead of Ford, Imo who doesn't improve his clubs sides to any degree...?
Conversely, look at Sale and Wasps with him playing...

Smith....too early to judge. He needs to play over two seasons to prove he has what is required...
Talent is one thing, but consistency and the ability to follow on a good season is key for one so young.

Can't for the life of me see how Ford gets in this last few years and certainly not to the tune of 50 caps.

I'm of the opinion that Cipriani is the best 10 in NH, followed by Sexton who is very effective.
Farrell could ape Sexton to move his game on.

 
Re: George Ford defence
Innings (IP Logged)
21 March, 2018 14:15
Quote:
John Tee
I'm of the opinion that Cipriani is the best 10 in NH, followed by Sexton who is very effective.
Farrell could ape Sexton to move his game on.

So that makes Sexton second and Farrell third? Most people would prefer to see Cipriani in their team's shirt for about three minutes in every game, and nowhere near the ground for the remaining 77. Most people would prefer to see Farrell or Sexton in their team's shirt for as much of 80 minutes as the coaches would permit.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 21/03/2018 14:16 by Innings.

 
Re: George Ford defence
AB (IP Logged)
21 March, 2018 17:08
Quote:
Innings
Quote:
John Tee
I'm of the opinion that Cipriani is the best 10 in NH, followed by Sexton who is very effective.
Farrell could ape Sexton to move his game on.

So that makes Sexton second and Farrell third? Most people would prefer to see Cipriani in their team's shirt for about three minutes in every game, and nowhere near the ground for the remaining 77. Most people would prefer to see Farrell or Sexton in their team's shirt for as much of 80 minutes as the coaches would permit.

you are being very generous I would give Cipriani 1 minute !

 
Re: George Ford defence
AP (IP Logged)
21 March, 2018 20:01
Innings, AB, I agree with that!



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Re: George Ford defence
John Tee (IP Logged)
24 March, 2018 09:32
Then you'd be throwing points away. I assume you haven't watch him lately.
Both Wasps and Sale were driven by him to a greater success than before.

I think Farrell affects games as well, but I don't call him a classic 10/playmaker because he hasn't that vision. If he is calling Englands attack, that isn't working either.
You find a place for Farrell at 12, but accept he isn't a classic centre either.
He is the player you want to have, but where to play him without throwing the rest of the backline out of balance.
10/12 has it's place in some games and therefore he has a big role for England but if your 10 can handle a game, then there may be games you'll have Farrell on the bench.

England's recent conundrum has been what to do about Ford/Farrell in that you have to play both to get a reasonable combination. The sum parts don't often add up though.

Farrell will realise his position when he can do what Sexton can...and this is well within his ability to do that these next few seasons.

 
Re: George Ford defence
OldMarovian (IP Logged)
24 March, 2018 12:58
For me the most encouraging thing about Farrell is I think he has improved every season I have watched him play. Being brutally honest I would have said in his early seasons under Lancaster that he was an excellent player with a great attitude but that he lacked the ability to read the game like others (like Cipriani and Ford) did. I would have probably thought that is something fairly instinctive but it's to my huge pleasure to see that he has been noticeably improving in that regard too and through this past 6 Nations we saw examples of him on the fly(half!) changing his play to take advantage of space or lines that were being run. He is also offering more of a threat to the gainline ball in hand and I think there's no reason to suspect that he won't continue to improve.

 
Re: George Ford defence
John Tee (IP Logged)
24 March, 2018 15:40
I'm pretty sure both club and country will want him to play like Sexton. It wouldn't be my pick...but depending on your alternatives... It woud suit Englands current traditional style and penchant for forward dominant rugby.
Jones wouldn't have to plan much else and it would be easy money.
I think Farrell could there in the next couple of years.
The problem may be life after Jones and depending how the RWC goes?

 
Re: George Ford defence
danilo2 (IP Logged)
24 March, 2018 17:58
John, I’m glad you think that a 26-year-old with 3 Premierships, 2 Champions Cups, 3 World Player of the Year nominations, 1 Rugby World World player of the year award, Current European player of the year, over 60 test matches including 2 Lions Tours (won & drawn) and the first name on the team sheet for club & country, might make a decent player in a couple of years.
I was getting worried he’d never make the grade... ;-)

 
Re: George Ford defence
Sara'sman (IP Logged)
24 March, 2018 18:24
dan he's part of the bile brigade who make the Wasps site unpleasant to visit. Seems to think repeating the same (wrong) points over and over again makes them right. Not worth debating with!

 
Re: George Ford defence
John Tee (IP Logged)
24 March, 2018 19:27
Quote:
danilo2
John, I’m glad you think that a 26-year-old with 3 Premierships, 2 Champions Cups, 3 World Player of the Year nominations, 1 Rugby World World player of the year award, Current European player of the year, over 60 test matches including 2 Lions Tours (won & drawn) and the first name on the team sheet for club & country, might make a decent player in a couple of years.
I was getting worried he’d never make the grade... ;-)

I think you'll find I said he could be a Sexton in a few years time.

 
Re: George Ford defence
John Tee (IP Logged)
24 March, 2018 19:29
Quote:
Sara'sman
dan he's part of the bile brigade who make the Wasps site unpleasant to visit. Seems to think repeating the same (wrong) points over and over again makes them right. Not worth debating with!

Wrong, says who...you..?

 
Re: George Ford defence
AlanE (IP Logged)
25 March, 2018 09:30
Quote:
Sara'sman
If you wish to know a Ford who is a total waste of money just watch his brother. On well over £100k at Carnegie I endured a season of him demonstrating every conceivable failing.

Teehee - I know Yorkshiremen have a reputation for generosity but I'm shocked that the Tykes pay their spectators that much to watch. (Sm100)



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