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Re: STH Renewals
Highbury Saracen (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 16:49
Our Silver (shorty to become Gold!) season ticket has gone up 25% since 2013/14 season



European champions 2016 & 2017

 
Re: STH Renewals
GoOnMunchHim (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 16:50
Quote:
The Bard
When Nigel said he was speaking to good people about investing in the club, I didn’t realise he meant us!

If he asked us to buy shares I'd be more likely to do that (depending on the perks) than pay £700 for my existing seat!

Quote:
The Bard
Either that or they’ve decided that it’s cheaper to lose half the fans than build a new west stand!

Possibly the new west stand is on hold for the forseeable and this is a way of trying to force some of us to take up the hard-to-sell seats in the lower west.

 
Re: STH Renewals
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
11 April, 2018 17:14
I suspect that this is being done now precisely because the swanky new seats in the West stand are NOT available yet. The whole issue of 'scarcity' has come home to roost. Had there been 2 or 3 thousand new season ticket seats available in the new West stand, it would have been much harder to sell the East stand seats with such a high increase in price.

 
Re: STH Renewals
whyisitnevereasy (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 07:55
Which row is the cut off before Silver becomes gold in E2?
Looking at the plan in my email I'm guessing it's G?



The ship may now enter harbour negative oilskins

 
Re: STH Renewals
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 09:43
One other snippet of information that came to light yesterday is that the U24 discount in reclassified Silver to Gold sections, rising from £170 to £400 will only be available for one transitional year. The U24 discount in Gold will then cease and the full adult price of £700 will apply. Unfortunately this, unlike the figures I gave above, I cannot verify so if this affects your planning I would definitely check when the figures come out next week, assuming of course that this kind of detail is included and not quietly swept under the carpet until next year.

 
Re: STH Renewals
JO'G (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 11:52
To be honest the actual internal price increases over probably the last ten years are broadly in line with other increases in beer prices, cinema tickets, restaurant meals, transport .... and I don't really have a problem with them.

What's the real problem is getting your seat reclassified. if the club were focussing on providing you with a replacement Silver or Gold season ticket in a comparable position in the East stand thwn there would not be 4 pages of complaints.

If the club took the approach of telling you they were moving your seat 15 places towards the outside of the stand so they could get another £500k of revenue and making the club more likely to break even then I for one would be much happier.

Making it that 25% of gold and Silver season ticket holders all have an unpalatable choice, whereas 75% of those ticket holders are not really effected is not a great approach. Especially where that 25% represent the longest serving, most dedicated supporters

What would potentially be the worst outcome for the club is that most of those supporters after a bit of groaning elect to pay the 50% uplift in costs (or negotiate a delay or a better rate) meaning that there is no actual seats for all those rich new season ticket holders happy to be fleeced by the club for a good seat

they will still only be offered rubbish views or a wet bum



Park team from London
Just a park team from London
European Champions
Just European champions

 
Re: STH Renewals
BigBri (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 12:45
Quote:
Waldo
If the club really want to extract money from the supporters to help the clubs financial situation why don't they consider what our local football club , Stevenage did when they wanted to fund a new stand A mini Bond .
Not only does this raise funds - it also promotes a sense of togetherness rather than the division that currently seems to be percolating !

Exactly Waldo. If we were strapped for cash I would happily invest rather than this version of fundraising



Burning the Boards London Style

[images.google.co.uk]

 
Re: STH Renewals
GerryK (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 14:02
have three gold seats in the East Stand with one STH a daughter working away in the US for a couple of years.Attempted to negotiate a deal which would protect her seat,by making a holding contribution rather than paying the full adult price for the season. This would have enabled the club to sell the seat on a match by match basis. Effectively benefiting both parties financially and retaining a STH on her return. Club response, no way could they entertain such at proposition. This problem plus the potential major hike in prices, could regretfully well lead to the loss of 3 Gold STH's

 
Re: STH Renewals
villagesarrie (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 14:02
We'd rather invest too than just be presented with what is, essentially, a Hobson's choice - pay up for a vastly increased ST price or don't renew. Is the club absolutely certain they have hordes of desperate potential fans willing to take up the season tickets that current holders can no longer afford? One has to assume that is the case, otherwise they wouldn't be so bullish about upsetting their current supporter base quite so badly.It is, in some cases, those fans who paid for season tickets for decades when we were, to put it bluntly, sh&te, who may no longer be able to cough up the extra hundreds of pounds per annum to see a club they've been part of for a very long time. I feel a little sad, more than angry actually (at the moment anyway).

 
Re: STH Renewals
TOKS (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 14:24
Quote:
GerryK
could regretfully well lead to the loss of 3 Gold STH's

Which is of course exactly what the club want, Gerry. The nightmare scenario for them is the one Jeremy describes, where the newly-shafted long-standing supporter sucks it up and pays the increase, meaning that the club now cannot offer their now preferred new rich supporter anything better than E9.

 
Re: STH Renewals
TV (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 14:25
Quote:
whyisitnevereasy
Which row is the cut off before Silver becomes gold in E2?
Looking at the plan in my email I'm guessing it's G?
I'm in E8 row J and can't tell whether my seat remains silver or is rebranded as gold. I sit with RobV in the first row of permanent seating which I guess is now gold.
For me this is untenable as the increase is compounded by the loss of a concessionary price. We moved from gold to silver some years back as we always miss a few games per season and couldn't justify a gold ticket on that basis.
I will wait for confirmation but if this is the case we both will give up our season tckets.

 
Re: STH Renewals
King Zak (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 14:30
The problem is, I’m struggling to see where I could move to and still remain in ‘silver’ that doesn’t involve potentially getting soaking wet! I like sitting down the side and quite high up to get an overall picture of the game. I suspect that there are very few seats available in either E1 or E9 and it will be a real bun fight to get one anyway - especially as I’d want 3 next to each other. If this was done once the West Stand is completed and they wanted to maximise corporate income in the East, I wouldn’t be quite so ‘disappointed’.



Nous sommes l'armée noir et rouge !

 
Re: STH Renewals
TOKS (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 14:48
Hi KZ, in speaking to the club earlier in the week, there are threes together in E9, but not that high, between rows A and J. May be worth giving them a call as I'm sure people will have made enquiries between then and now.

 
Re: STH Renewals
mrangry (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 14:55
I have always looked down on you Zak, since starting at AzP, but wouldn't want to lose you, if I myself stay.My seats seem to be Gold now, and far more expensive. It seems to me that calling the bluff is the best thing to do for both sides. Could someone not start an online petition, so all those STHs who are angry enough not to renew could sign, and show the club en masse what it is doing. Leaking this to the press might be an option too, together a few hundred who have been at the club for years might not have either the financial or social clout to make a difference, but it would not do Nigel any harm to learn that those who have supported throuigh thick and thin are leaving so those who are thick but rich can have better seats (which they will probably not renew if Sarries aren't winning every match)

 
Re: STH Renewals
chris87 (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 15:18
Quote:
TOKS
Hi KZ, in speaking to the club earlier in the week, there are threes together in E9, but not that high, between rows A and J. May be worth giving them a call as I'm sure people will have made enquiries between then and now.

I sit in Row V in E9, the row in front of us always has different people in it so you maybe able to get a 3 in that row.
Plus side of it is that we never get wet and the wind dosent effect us at all. Downside is I can’t see either of the screens (about half of the one opposite) however I am in the corner.

 
Re: STH Renewals
Waldo (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 15:36
What surprises me about this is that the club have probably seen the feedback on here (if they have any sense they would take a look at the message board like Ed G did) and they certainly have been taking calls from supporters on this subject , and yet they don't seem to feel the need to put out any kind of holding statement.

I have to say that whilst the on field stuff has been good (albeit a few hic ups recently ) the off field side of the club (certainly from the match day side of things) has been going downhill for some time IMHO.

I don't see how the potential re classifying of seats upwards is going to improve that .

 
Re: STH Renewals
villagesarrie (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 15:51
If Ed G was still around, I doubt very much that this issue would have turned into the fiasco it undoubtedly is. Increases would probably still have happened - perhaps not as swingeing as they are, one would hope - but it would have been dealt with far more sensitively and with miles better communication and interaction with those affected supporters i.e. all STHs. The admin/PR side is close to being awful frankly.

 
Re: STH Renewals
PhillFez (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 16:24
What really galls me is they got away with this a few seasons ago when we had to move from near half way to goal side of the 22 because of reclassification and removal of over 65 discount some 60% hike.
Options now Are wet, behind the posts or behind the try line. None of these are acceptable.
Sad when we've been supporting since Sella, Lynagh and Pinaar. It looks like the end of my ST so may not turn up again at all but watch on TV and spend my money elsewhere.

 
Re: STH Renewals
Jim 55 (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 16:27
Quote:
King Zak
The problem is, I’m struggling to see where I could move to and still remain in ‘silver’ that doesn’t involve potentially getting soaking wet! I like sitting down the side and quite high up to get an overall picture of the game. I suspect that there are very few seats available in either E1 or E9 and it will be a real bun fight to get one anyway - especially as I’d want 3 next to each other. If this was done once the West Stand is completed and they wanted to maximise corporate income in the East, I wouldn’t be quite so ‘disappointed’.

Are you including moi???

 
Re: STH Renewals
Wayoutwest (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 16:52
If this is true I can feel a protest coming on at the last home game of the season.

Anybody interested? Not sure what action we could take though. Sit in? banners in the ground? A march? leave the game early? Don't buy any food or beverages or items from the shop?

Just a thought

 
Re: STH Renewals
TOKS (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 16:55
Quote:
mrangry
Leaking this to the press might be an option too

I texted a friend of mine earlier who is head of football at BT Sport. I said I know it's not your field but, given that TV companies often like public interest stores as well as the game itself, it may be worth just mentioning our situation to your rugby lot prior to the game on Sunday. He texted me straight back (which in itself is unusual as he's always so busy) saying that he would indeed pass it on.

Of course he may pass it on and nothing happens. But it's worth a shot. If Saracens are looking to encourage new money from rich shiny people then the last thing it needs is for bad publicity in the shape of the way the current long-standing lot are being treated.

 
Re: STH Renewals
VR1997 (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 16:59
As I said earlier in the thread SS said prices will be emailed Monday, lets wait for that.

However it seems pretty certain that 're classifying' is going to happen.

The club have every right to put prices up but over the seasons I believe this has been reasonable.

Re classifying of seats is ethically wrong and I understand they have done this previously. Anyone committing themselves to a season ticket should expect that category to remain. The club were desperate for bums on seats when we arrived at Allianz Park they should show loyalty to the people who give them money up front every season.

I am a North Stand season ticket holder and it doesn't seem to affect me this time but the way the club is being run says to me they could change any seat at anytime so we should all stand together over this.

An across the board percentage increase would achieve the same result.

 
Re: STH Renewals
EnfieldMal (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 17:00
Quote:
Wayoutwest
If this is true I can feel a protest coming on at the last home game of the season.
Anybody interested? Not sure what action we could take though. Sit in? banners in the ground? A march? leave the game early? Don't buy any food or beverages or items from the shop?

Just a thought

Not banners or leave game leave for me. This is Schalk Brits farewell game & I would not want him caught up with any negativity . By all means don’t buy anything from the Olympic Bat or shop but not buying from the other outlets will not affect Saracens but will affect the owners of that outlet as they will pay their rent to Saracens regardless of how much money they do/don’t take

 
Re: STH Renewals
Paulr58 (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 17:38
I think a 10% rise across the board would be much fairer on everybody as we all enjoy the success of the on field players. It seems they are picking on the Gold and silver ST holders in the East Stand so that they can resell the seats to corporate people.

 
Re: STH Renewals
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 18:34
Quote:
Paulr58
I think a 10% rise across the board would be much fairer on everybody as we all enjoy the success of the on field players. It seems they are picking on the Gold and silver ST holders in the East Stand so that they can resell the seats to corporate people.

I was think the same thing. Unpopular as it may be in some quarters but the actual increase for East stand seats that are reclassified is approximately 12 times greater than the North and South stand seats - even if they are subjected to the same annual % rise. That's just for the adults. For the U24 group the difference is something like 30 times greater! Not exactly sharing the pain very evenly.

The elephant in the room of course is that we are yet to hear of the match-day ticket price rises. I fully expect them to be pretty steep too.

 
Re: STH Renewals
Highbury Saracen (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 19:10
Average cost per game of my original silver seat was £28
The new gold one in same place is £43!!
Big increase.....or £20 month extra by d/d
On that basis I can see one off tickets for big games being around £55-60 at least



European champions 2016 & 2017

 
Re: STH Renewals
PotNoodleHorn (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 19:29
Quote:
EnfieldMal
Quote:
Wayoutwest
If this is true I can feel a protest coming on at the last home game of the season.
Anybody interested? Not sure what action we could take though. Sit in? banners in the ground? A march? leave the game early? Don't buy any food or beverages or items from the shop?

Just a thought

Not banners or leave game leave for me. This is Schalk Brits farewell game & I would not want him caught up with any negativity . By all means don’t buy anything from the Olympic Bat or shop but not buying from the other outlets will not affect Saracens but will affect the owners of that outlet as they will pay their rent to Saracens regardless of how much money they do/don’t take

Why is this SB's farewell game? Is it not Glaws? or the home semi ??

 
Re: STH Renewals
ninjafez (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 19:42
Quote:
ninjafez
I'm assuming the had over of the ticketing to the commercial side has delayed the annual process....
Hi yet thought I'd check as it normally finds my spam folder and a miss it..

In my defence, I only wanted to make sure I had seen the renewal to look at the nearest band... I needn't mean for this to happen lol



Ninjafez - supporting Sarries and cleaning their signs since 2006!

 
Re: STH Renewals
darktagnan (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 20:04
J O'G I'm not looking to sow seeds of discontent where they don't belong - but if the price of my seat is what I fear it will be, it will have gone up over 300% in 6 years.
That's way out of line with anything I can think of as a comparison point (with the exception of gig tickets as a result of the collapse of the cd market thanks to the "nick everything off the internet for nothing" brigade") & can only be described as outrageous.

 
Re: STH Renewals
Highbury Saracen (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 20:20
Pretty sure an across the board increase wont happen because club want us to vacate our seats in East stand to accomodate the gold members in west stand next season & the hoardes of newbies queueing up to be STH



European champions 2016 & 2017

 
Re: STH Renewals
OldMarovian (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 21:01
I think this could be summed up by saying that the communication on this has been terrible and with a little more thought and much better planning this could have been better managed even if the result is the same.

Once this snafu has been dealt with can someone check if Alex Goode really is the 1.55cm claimed on the fish smiling smiley

 
Re: STH Renewals
King Zak (IP Logged)
12 April, 2018 22:55
Quote:
Jim 55
Quote:
King Zak
The problem is, I’m struggling to see where I could move to and still remain in ‘silver’ that doesn’t involve potentially getting soaking wet! I like sitting down the side and quite high up to get an overall picture of the game. I suspect that there are very few seats available in either E1 or E9 and it will be a real bun fight to get one anyway - especially as I’d want 3 next to each other. If this was done once the West Stand is completed and they wanted to maximise corporate income in the East, I wouldn’t be quite so ‘disappointed’.

Are you including moi???

For reasons I don’t fully understand, yes!



Nous sommes l'armée noir et rouge !

 
Re: STH Renewals
london pride (IP Logged)
13 April, 2018 11:56
Quote:
King Zak
Quote:
Jim 55
Quote:
King Zak
The problem is, I’m struggling to see where I could move to and still remain in ‘silver’ that doesn’t involve potentially getting soaking wet! I like sitting down the side and quite high up to get an overall picture of the game. I suspect that there are very few seats available in either E1 or E9 and it will be a real bun fight to get one anyway - especially as I’d want 3 next to each other. If this was done once the West Stand is completed and they wanted to maximise corporate income in the East, I wouldn’t be quite so ‘disappointed’.

Are you including moi???

For reasons I don’t fully understand, yes!

King Zak...It could be much worse,Next season you might be sitting next to me.

 
Re: STH Renewals
Waldo (IP Logged)
13 April, 2018 12:29
I think we should all get seats together (Sm13)

Jim to supply the sausages .

 
Re: STH Renewals
Jim 55 (IP Logged)
13 April, 2018 12:37
Quote:
Waldo
I think we should all get seats together (Sm13)
Jim to supply the sausages .

Again. I was in the Thomas a Becket on Saturday Waldo still didn't get any !

 
Re: STH Renewals
King Zak (IP Logged)
13 April, 2018 17:31
Quote:
Waldo
I think we should all get seats together .

Now there’s a thought ........



Nous sommes l'armée noir et rouge !

 
Re: STH Renewals
boomer! (IP Logged)
16 April, 2018 14:51
Quote:
Waldo
If the club really want to extract money from the supporters to help the clubs financial situation why don't they consider what our local football club , Stevenage did when they wanted to fund a new stand A mini Bond .
Not only does this raise funds - it also promotes a sense of togetherness rather than the division that currently seems to be percolating !


The problem with Bond issues are they have a maturity date and carry a coupon. In terms of investments and repayments five years is too short.

What Nigel could consider is issuing non voting shares.

 
Re: STH Renewals
Wayoutwest (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 10:03
Still no comment from the club on peoples dis satisfaction.

Its astonishing...I thought the dark days of fan communication were behind us. We seem to have forgot everything Ed G taught the club about working with the fans.

 
Re: STH Renewals
viewfromthe22 (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 10:12
I have posted this on another thread but I just received an e-mail from supporter services
in response to my request to cancel for next year.

"Thank you Michael for your email, your season ticket has now been cancelled for next season.

Thank you for your support and we hope to see you again soon at Allianz Park.

Regards"

Polite as the response was I can't help thinking something is missing. No one asked WHY.

 
Re: STH Renewals
villagesarrie (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 11:42
Wow! That is what you might call a completely indifferent response to the cancellation.It is just a standard email and just shows how completely out of touch with reality and customer care the club has become. We've renewed because, bizarrely, despite indications to the contrary, our tickets have increased very little (for this season at least - it will probably change next...) but we are reviewing our attitude to the club - we had thought we wanted to get more involved in it once Mr VS retired.We're not nearly so comfortable with that idea now as we've both been shocked at the way in which fans who've been STHs far longer than we have, in the main, have been treated. Cavalier doesn't cover it.
Nobody disputes the fact that NW has put huge amounts of money into the club - as have others - and really needs to see some sort of financial return on his investment and I would have had no problem with a sensible increase in our STH prices (or indeed, some other form of financial input, like none voting shares, as suggested by others) but huge increases without warning or any form of communication is unfair and has been handled appallingly.

 
Re: STH Renewals
Innings (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 12:32
To add insult to greed, to renew on-line, on top of the 58% increase, they have the brass neck to charge a booking fee. This is what happens when greed overtakes sense.

And don't go on about loyalty. This is a business. Loyalty is the business owner's way of influencing the behaviour of employees, customers, the night watchman and the night watchman's dog. It is always a top-down benefit and a bottom-up disadvantage. Considerations of loyalty never affect the business decision for a second.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
Re: STH Renewals
winnie10 (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 12:43
We are on holiday, so can’t do much about this until we get back next week, but I am appalled by this situation. We have three seats in E5 which have now been recategorised. It’s bad enough that the two adult seats have increased from £660 to £1,030, but our 7-year old son’s seat has gone from £220 to £1,030 (Sm123) - he doesn’t come to every game but we pay for a seat next to us so that he can sit with us when he does come. That is insane - not sure we can justify that amount of money, so we need to think long and hard whether to renew. Even if we do renew, there will be a bit of me that resents the fact that we have been shafted by a ‘family’ club.

 
Re: STH Renewals
Wayoutwest (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 16:05
I think I will let them sweat on whatever I decide to do....I will make my decision to renew or cancel on the last day.

Can't wait to bump into the CEO at AP. If he walks around the ground he is going to get one hell of an ear full from disaffected fans.

He probably will not come out of his ivory tower!

 
Re: STH Renewals
VR1997 (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 16:20
The kids are being hit as well. In the North stand my grandsons (13 years old)ticket has
gone from £120 to £185. this may not compare to others increases but it shows they are not attempting to encourage young fans and definitely alienating most season ticket holders.

OAP concession in the North stand up 22%.

 
Re: STH Renewals
Highbury Saracen (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 17:32
Quote:
Wayoutwest
I think I will let them sweat on whatever I decide to do....I will make my decision to renew or cancel on the last day.
Can't wait to bump into the CEO at AP. If he walks around the ground he is going to get one hell of an ear full from disaffected fans.

He probably will not come out of his ivory tower!

I was thinking about doing that WOW but in end was worried about how many other seating options there would be if we relocated....so we moved already!



European champions 2016 & 2017



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 17/04/2018 19:17 by Highbury Saracen.

 
Re: STH Renewals
Harrow Sarrie (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 18:09
Quote:
VR1997
The kids are being hit as well. In the North stand my grandsons (13 years old)ticket has
gone from £120 to £185. this may not compare to others increases but it shows they are not attempting to encourage young fans and definitely alienating most season ticket holders.


This seems to be another trend. As I mentioned on the other thread, we sit in the lower West and whilst we haven't been reclassified (still Silver) my son's junior ticket is now £285 up from £170, a 68% increase... Whilst I will likely swallow that for now, a fellow STH and his son, who we only recruited a season or two ago, has decided that is unfortunately too much for them.

 
Re: STH Renewals
Paulr58 (IP Logged)
17 April, 2018 19:18
Reply from the club to my email as nobody had the curtsy to call me, just about sums up the real feeling towards the fans.

Thank you for your email but unfortunately at the moment due to the high demand of calls, there is no one available to ring you.

The price rises have come from the fact that over the last 5 years at Allianz Park we have seen support for Saracens grow, this has obviously been wonderful for the club but has also created scarcity particularly in the East Stand where obviously the best seats of the stadium are located. In response to this and with the future of our club firmly in mind, approximately 25% of seats in the East Stand have been recatorgorised.

These changes are part of the commitment to develop our facilities, ensure that Saracens maintain its place at the top of European rugby and provide the best match day experience for every fan.

I hope this gives you an idea as to why the increase all of a sudden.

Regards
Linda

 
Re: STH Renewals
WOTAFLANKER (IP Logged)
18 April, 2018 08:56
To put things into perspective I am going to the FA Cup Semi Final at Wembley this Saturday.

£30.00!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 
Re: STH Renewals
Sara'sman (IP Logged)
18 April, 2018 10:08
Quote:
WOTAFLANKER
To put things into perspective I am going to the FA Cup Semi Final at Wembley this Saturday.
£30.00!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is that a fair comparison though? You could have watched rugby's European Champions beat their local rivals in a league match at the same venue for significantly less last year!

The cheapest season tickets at Spurs next year will be £745 rising to £1995 (£2200 with pie, pint and programme) for 19 games. Only a small percentage are under £1000, hospitality mind blowingly expensive.

Our club have handled this appallingly but some comparisons don't bear scrutiny. I think our better R&B seats offer extremely good value (and company) though I also understand the anger at the manner in which the club are going about reducing losses by maximising the East Stand income. As a fossil myself, I don't understand why people expect concessions in the better seats - imo a bonus to have had them, not a right to keep them.

 
Re: STH Renewals
DoubleChampions (IP Logged)
18 April, 2018 10:34
A bonus to have had them, not a right to keep them?

A bonus that has been paid for and then a rise of 58%?

You must be a marketeers dream if you think a 58% rise to do the same thing a few months later from when you were last doing it is all well and good.

The whole approach here from the club is worryingly panic stricken - if they need more money so desperately - Where has the planning been - who has been controlling the ship?

If there is no immediate desperate need - then they are bereft of imagination - preferring the caveman approach of clubbing their willing partners (us!) over the head.

The comparison to football by WotaFlanker - although not necessarily accurate in this instance - is spot on in the main. The culture of ‘if you won’t pay it someone else will’ is now the Saracens way - their email openly says so.

And as for Spurs - all the games are top Level unlike AWC - all the games are played at the same ground - the majority of the time all the games are with the best available team.

Rugby is not football - that is / was the beauty of it - the camaraderie between club and fan and fan and opposing fans - now - we are but a number.

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