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Eddie's quandary
Innings (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 18:55
It's has really come to the fore that several England certainties are playing so badly that Eddie has reached a definitive fork in the road. He could persist with about ten players who manifestly are failing at their clubs, and give England no chance of recovery if they fail again this summer or in the autumn. Alternatively, he accepts that his gold-plated certainties are no longer of a standard that would even get England out of the pool containing themselves, France and Argentina. let alone deliver a shot at winning the big prize.

About ten players could find themselves competing in RWC with about eight caps each, scarcely an encouraging thought.

I was impressed by Eddie for a long time, but now I think he has stuck with some for too long, chopped and changed some of his discoveries without giving them time to develop at the higher level, and most worryingly, he has so praised his individual leaders that his current complaint of lack of leadership on the field can only be written into the own-goal column.

What next? Where does he find 2,3,6,7,8,10 or 12,13,15 and turn them into RWC winners in a year and a half? Obvious some positions get cover from the existing bench options, but who gets onto the bench?



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
Re: Eddie's quandary
Seany_Boy0511 (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 19:05
If your going on current form then realistically no body is a certain starter or finisher (as EJ calls them)

I would like to see a mix up and experience

Potentially an English XV something like

1. M Vunipola
2. George
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Kruis
6. Itoje
7. Underhill
8. B Vunipola
9. B Youngs
10.Farrell
11.May
12.Teo
13.Tuilagi (only if he is fully fit though)
14.Nowell
15.Watson

Obviously there are questions about Cole and Teo and I'm not sure who else could really fill the gaps off the top of my head obviously I haven't included the bench but the likes of Sam Simmonds, Lawes and Armand would make theme bench.

 
Re: Eddie's quandary
OldMarovian (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 19:08
That's what happens when you prioritize winning completely over development and fail to learn from your failures.

He's also got the not inconsiderable issue of does he rest players for the Summer tour against what looked like it would be a shadow SA side but now shows every sign of being the strongest they can field (positive discrimination excluded) and risk returning on the end of a 4,5 or 6 game losing streak or does he drag along all his knackered players, get them to push sledges up sand dunes all week and then play rugby at the weekend and write the result of as a success even if we lose because the squad are 24.67% fitter?

Seany is that your best idea of an England squad or the squad you want for the Summer tour? Surely guys like Mako, Maro, Lawes, etc even perhaps Farrell need a break?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2018 19:11 by OldMarovian.

 
Re: Eddie's quandary
Seany_Boy0511 (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 19:18
Quote:
OldMarovian
That's what happens when you prioritize winning completely over development and fail to learn from your failures.
He's also got the not inconsiderable issue of does he rest players for the Summer tour against what looked like it would be a shadow SA side but now shows every sign of being the strongest they can field (positive discrimination excluded) and risk returning on the end of a 4,5 or 6 game losing streak or does he drag along all his knackered players, get them to push sledges up sand dunes all week and then play rugby at the weekend and write the result of as a success even if we lose because the squad are 24.67% fitter?

Seany is that your best idea of an England squad or the squad you want for the Summer tour? Surely guys like Mako, Maro, Lawes, etc even perhaps Farrell need a break?

That would be a team I'd like to see for next season's 6N yes absolutely agree bring in some young guns and blood them for the summer tour definitely rest players who are near empty and who have been on the lions tour for this summer

 
Re: Eddie's quandary
Innings (IP Logged)
08 April, 2018 23:23
So, that moves a few from bench to starting, but where's the bench to be contenders for RWC?. Whom do you consider as the other dozen players who need to be able to step up in case of injury, bans or whatever?



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
Re: Eddie's quandary
09 April, 2018 06:51
Popping over here as we are busy digging over the corpse on our site
Interesting debate Agreed the win streak papered over a lot of issues - barring the Scotland game at Twickers last year we havenít really blown anyone away - compare that to NZ in the last year

Hereís my take with a few changes (one controversial)

1. M Vunipola
2. Hartley for George (for me better finisher than starter)
3. Sinckler for Cole (personally past his best)
4. Launchbury
5. Itoje for Kruis
6. Brad Shields for Itoje (EQP due to parents)
7. Armand for Underhill (offers little in loose)
8. B Vunipola
9. B Youngs
10.Farrell
11.Daly for May
12. Loz for Teo
13. Slade for Tuilagi (only if he is fully fit though)
14.Nowell
15.Watson

I know Hartley over George will raise a few eyebrows, especially on Sarries site, but here is my logic
1 if Hartley doesnít start heís not your finisher
2 Because of 1 if George starts whoís backup? LCD who for me I would not be confident in at end of game - I have confidence in George plus he offers a lot in the loose when game opens up.
3 Change of captain less than 18 months before WC

Happy Monday

 
Re: Eddie's quandary
Roger G (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 07:28
Personally I think too much is now made of the term "finisher". With the number of potential players available it should be the case that if you're good enough to finish a game for England then you're good enough to start.

IMHO there are a number of players who are no longer good enough to start which, I believe, is the point of this thread.

Specifically answering the wounded Saint's point - LCD, for me, is a better option than Hartley whether starting or finishing, and for captain Faz or Launch would be easy choices. Youngs might be another option, or even Itoje, who has a surprising amount of captaincy experience for one so young.

 
Re: Eddie's quandary
King Zak (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 08:41
I think I actually agree with most of SMRBís selection. Iíd probably put Rhodes into the mix at 6 and heís probably correct (sadly) about hooker given the current form etc. (Iím not sure changing captain is too much of an issue though) For me, the biggest problem remains midfield. Iíd like to see Loz at 13, just wonder if Manu could ever get fit enough to play 12. That would give the battering ram at 12 with pace and distribution outside to cause real problems for any team.



Nous sommes l'armťe noir et rouge !

 
Re: Eddie's quandary
OldMarovian (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 08:42
I'd suggest that LCD is a better impact player than George and George is a better player to have on the field for 50/60 minutes than Hartley. Hartley is neither the best starter or the best bench option. The maths seems simple to me.

Sounds like he is doubtful for the summer tour. I hope that he gets himself well but like Haskell now is a decent time to call it a day IMO.

 
Re: Eddie's quandary
Wayoutwest (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 08:48
Surely he has to give some of these players some time off international duty in the summer.

He needs to find some new faces and quickly.

There are plenty at exeter that deserve and should be given a chance in SA.

 
Re: Eddie's quandary
Highbury Saracen (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 10:08
Not just summer tour,I hope lots of Chiefs players are picked during AIís & 6Nís smiling smiley



European champions 2016 & 2017

 
Re: Eddie's quandary
09 April, 2018 11:06
Quote:
OldMarovian
I'd suggest that LCD is a better impact player than George and George is a better player to have on the field for 50/60 minutes than Hartley. Hartley is neither the best starter or the best bench option. The maths seems simple to me.
Sounds like he is doubtful for the summer tour. I hope that he gets himself well but like Haskell now is a decent time to call it a day IMO.

I agree both are better in the loose than DH however that, for me, is third in priority after securing scrum and consistently throwing the arrows which on both counts DH is better than LCD. I agree if DH doesnít start heís not a bench option. My niggling doubt with LCD would be World Cup final v NZ, 4 points behind and clock gone red with a line out on their 5 metre. Would I trust LCDís arrows in that situation and based on evidence to date itís a no from me I would trust JG and hence my view.
Also re captain itís no longer just the 80 mins on the field but all the other media demands. A lot of the players say the role DH plays should not be underestimated in camp etc.
Fortunately itís not my decision

 
Re: Eddie's quandary
BarnetSarrie (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 11:26
I think the debate about Hartley may end up being taken out of everyone's hands. Concussion is really a terrible thing and if he is suffering as badly as some are reporting, he has to think about himself and his future. And Eddie and the England set up need to think about that as well.

How many matches will they be playing on the summer tour?
Personally I think it is vital that all the boys who had no break last year - not just the Lions but those who played in England games and did not get a proper pre-season should be excluded from Summer rugby this year. They need to build themselves up and have chance to do proper recovery. Mentally too, they need to just switch off for a few weeks.

We all know that if asked, all the boys will choose to go and to play - because they love rugby, because they are scared to turn down the opportunity in case they dont get asked again, because of the honour of selection. But I firmly believe that the RFU needs to be thinking about the bigger picture and player burn out and welfare. I worry that the pressure to succeed in the world cup will mean bad decisions in the short term that will affect the readiness of the players in the long term. Has anyone also heard whether they have added extra games to the autumn internationals? They were certainly talking about it - and about there being 'an appetite for extra games for their customers' (Sm80)

 
Re: Eddie's quandary
Innings (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 11:42
Don't confuse declaring that player welfare is paramount with the louder sound of the cash tills. The declarations as a substitute for agreement between the interested parties are a sorry substitute for finding and implementing a solution.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
Re: Eddie's quandary
Innings (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 11:43
But, back to this thread's point, where are the bench names, let alone the added ten or dozen who need to travel or be ready to step in at short notice?



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
Re: Eddie's quandary
mikec23 (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 12:50
My tuppence for worth a look/another look/ summer tour...
Curry x 2
Jack Singleton
Alex Lewington
Henry Trinder
Sam Hill
Jason Woodward
Beno Abano
Michael Rhodes
Jackson Wray

I think we are really short at TH, sadly Cole is a bit of a plodder now IMO, not sure what the answer is, is Sinkler the answer?

Do we use the summer tour as a development tour, im not sure, that leaves us little time before the WC if it doesn't go well.

 
Re: Eddie's quandary
Wayoutwest (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 13:11
I can't count the times England have been in this mess since 2003.

Scenario goes like this.

1, Current coach under pressure as performance of players falls away.
2, Press call for change. Current coach gets replaced
3, New coach comes in and picks some new players based upon great club form
4, Team goes well
5, Players form starts to dip at club level but international coach sticks with them
6, Players form starts to dip at international level. No experienced replacement players
7, Current coach under pressure
8, Press call for change. Current coach gets replaced.

The point here is that players have a limited life at international level in England due to playing time and the conflict between club and country.

Eddie needs new in form players to break in and SA is his last chance before 2019 RWC.

 
Re: Eddie's quandary
OldMarovian (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 13:11
Ok. Back on track.

Quote:
Innings
What next? Where does he find 2,3,6,7,8,10 or 12,13,15 and turn them into RWC winners in a year and a half? Obvious some positions get cover from the existing bench options, but who gets onto the bench?

For the summer tour he has an unenviable task but I think he has to experiment and appreciate that he may lose all 3 games but learn enough about potential players that he will have made progress.

We play SA 4 times in a row (3 away and 1 home with only the Babas game in between) I think you take this tour as the last time to find new options and combinations. Integrate the best of them for the Babas game with those rested for the summer and then treat SA at Twickenham as the first game of the run to the RWC in which we are no longer experimenting but trying to play our main 23 at every available opportunity.

I appreciate that's simplistic and pays no mind to the howls there will be when (if) the losing streak extends.

Injured: Hughes.
Retired: Hartley, Haskell.
Rested: Mako, Cole, Maro, Launchbury, Lawes, Daly.

Baby-out-with-the-bathwater 23 for first SA tour game:
Genge, George, Sinckler, Isiekwe, Kruis, Robshaw, Simmonds, Billy, Youngs, Farrell(c), May, Te'o, Slade, Nowell, Watson.
Marler, LCD, Williams, Ewels(does he call?), Armand, Care, Smith, Lozo (13 & FB cover)

I wouldn't die wondering at least smiling smiley

 
Re: Eddie's quandary
Poking With Sticks (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 13:16
Surely the BOWTB side has to include someone other than Youngs at 9?

 
Re: Eddie's quandary
BarnetSarrie (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 13:47
Please dont let him take and break Spenno!
Pick from a different team. Please!

Eddie also needs to rest Owen, Jamie and George K as well - he really does. They need a summer to have a holiday (Owen is engaged so may need time for wedding and honeymoon!) and do a full pre season. And Billy needs the same after such a long injury break. He needs to be match fit as well as fully recovered, or he will just end up injured again.

This SA tour is going to be brutal. We know they have their reputation to restore even more so than England - we will rue the day we play these boys too much and don't let them have time to recouperate and do proper preparation for next year.

If we are serious about the World cup we need to take a longer view than just this summer.

 
Re: Eddie's quandary
OldMarovian (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 13:56
Quote:
Poking With Sticks
Surely the BOWTB side has to include someone other than Youngs at 9?

Tom Youngs. Helps with the hard yards winking smiley

Fair point. Robson then.

 
Re: Eddie's quandary
Innings (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 14:26
Hardly a BOWTBW selection if it includes half a dozenB&I Lions who need a decent break.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
Re: Eddie's quandary
Adey (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 14:59
Apologies but I canít help but notice some of the best debate on this site is about England and what Eddie Jones should do. Meanwhile over on the England forum thereís some poor woman chatting to herself non stop. I kind of feel sorry for her.

 
Re: Eddie's quandary
David@Sarries (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 15:10
I'm a fan of Jack Clifford the Quins 7 and Willis the Wasps 6; Clifford has played before and Willis has been putting in some great performances. Also, Mallinder should be given a chance to prove himself,

I would ask the question - do England needexperience in every position? Surely there's room for some new/young/inexperienced players otherwise 2003 will repeat itself again!

 
Re: Eddie's quandary
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
09 April, 2018 17:52
I'd take Tom Dunn to SA. I'd rather all of our Lions were on the beach, though I recognise that Jamie would want to cement his position ahead of Hartley and Sanjay will want to edge closer to 60 Welsh caps.



£676.97 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2017.

 
Re: Eddie's quandary
EnfieldMal (IP Logged)
10 April, 2018 18:04
Quote:
Seany_Boy0511
If your going on current form then realistically no body is a certain starter or finisher (as EJ calls them)
I would like to see a mix up and experience

Potentially an English XV something like

1. M Vunipola
2. George
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Kruis
6. Itoje
7. Under Hill
8. B Vunipola
9. B Youngs
10.Farrell
11.May
12.Teo
13.Tuilagi (only if he is fully fit though)
14.Nowell
15.Watson

Obviously there are questions about Cole and Teo and I'm not sure who else could really fill the gaps off the top of my head obviously I haven't included the bench but the likes of Sam Simmonds, Lawes and Armand would make theme bench.

For me Maro is not a 6 if he is going to play at his best he needs to play at Lock. Nick Isiekwe has adapted better to the switch than Maro. I wouldnít have Teo & Tuilagi as centres there needs to be a ďplaymakerĒ like a Will Greenwood style 13. Loz seems to be shaping up nicely along with Henry Slade either could do 13. It is more likely to be launchbury & Maro as locks with Courtney Lawes at 6. Kruis is more likely as a replacement if he goes at all


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