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Re: Come On Racing
Roger G (IP Logged)
26 April, 2018 15:00
Quote:
Leinster Lady
On the one hand supporters of the National English Rugby Team complain that Ireland has an advantage due to Central Contracts and therefore were able to win the 6N grand slam. On the other hand supporters of the PRL teams complain that the Irish Provinces have an advantage due to Central Contacts but that Central Contracts are not suitable for the PRL. Is the reality not simply that the IRFU makes very good use of the very limited resources available to Rugby in Ireland? If the same resource management is not undertaken in England why complain about the Irish system?

Ireland most certainly do make the most of their limited resources and central contracts play a big part in this. However, I think the gripe that PRL might have is more to do with the lack of competition to qualify for the EC in Pro 14, along with the zero threat of relegation. If the system was similar to England and France, whereby the top 6 qualify, regardless of which nation they represent, then I think the playing field might be more levelled. I assume, but am not sure, that with central contracts the national union can choose which region the best players represent so can also, in effect, weaken the chances of one region (say Connacht) in favour of the others. Central contracts in England simply wouldn't work as the PRL clubs are privately owned and would be hampered more than helped by having team selection even more dictated by the RFU than it is already. Would make the premiership pretty meaningless IMHO.

 
Re: Come On Racing
Highbury Saracen (IP Logged)
26 April, 2018 15:41
Quote:
Leinster Lady
Quote:
Highbury Saracen
Dont think chairman of premiership clubs will ever agree to that LL as they want to charge top dollar to watch best players & we are already without our internationals 11/12 weeks if season
This season we have already seen clubs like Sale & Newcastle becoming much more competitive & its much harder to play them during internationals
Just to add we had a great time in Dublin over easter & enjoyed some great banter & the mutual respect between two sets of supporters smiling smiley


On the one hand supporters of the National English Rugby Team complain that Ireland has an advantage due to Central Contracts and therefore were able to win the 6N grand slam. On the other hand supporters of the PRL teams complain that the Irish Provinces have an advantage due to Central Contacts but that Central Contracts are not suitable for the PRL. Is the reality not simply that the IRFU makes very good use of the very limited resources available to Rugby in Ireland? If the same resource management is not undertaken in England why complain about the Irish system?

Quite honestly most supporters of a premiership club in England arent as bothered about how the national team does they just want their own club players to do well!
We have had too many players broken by EJ to care too much!!
RFU holds all power over here unfortunately



European champions 2016 & 2017

 
Re: Come On Racing
Leinster Lady (IP Logged)
26 April, 2018 19:01
Quote:
#wolfpack
Quote:
#wolfpack
There is no doubt the competition structure and the central contracts load the European cup towards a Pro14 side.
How many Leinster players involved in the Irish 6N squad played the week before the Saracens game?

This isn't sour grapes or anything. We were well beaten and to be honest we never looked like winning the competition this season. But I think the competition is skewed, which is why I would like Racing to win. I think it is a harder competition to win for teams from England or France.

In fairness if I were not such a fanatical Leinster supporter I would also support Racing on the basis that they have never won the competition before and it always nice to see some new team lift the trophy. If Leinster has an advantage because the IRFU insist on resting centrally contracted players then surely Racing has the advantage of a player budget which is many times Leinster's budget. Swings and roundabouts. Hopefully it will be an entertaining match for the neutral supporters.

 
Re: Come On Racing
Leinster Lady (IP Logged)
26 April, 2018 19:12
Quote:
Roger G
Quote:
Leinster Lady
On the one hand supporters of the National English Rugby Team complain that Ireland has an advantage due to Central Contracts and therefore were able to win the 6N grand slam. On the other hand supporters of the PRL teams complain that the Irish Provinces have an advantage due to Central Contacts but that Central Contracts are not suitable for the PRL. Is the reality not simply that the IRFU makes very good use of the very limited resources available to Rugby in Ireland? If the same resource management is not undertaken in England why complain about the Irish system?

Ireland most certainly do make the most of their limited resources and central contracts play a big part in this. However, I think the gripe that PRL might have is more to do with the lack of competition to qualify for the EC in Pro 14, along with the zero threat of relegation. If the system was similar to England and France, whereby the top 6 qualify, regardless of which nation they represent, then I think the playing field might be more levelled. I assume, but am not sure, that with central contracts the national union can choose which region the best players represent so can also, in effect, weaken the chances of one region (say Connacht) in favour of the others. Central contracts in England simply wouldn't work as the PRL clubs are privately owned and would be hampered more than helped by having team selection even more dictated by the RFU than it is already. Would make the premiership pretty meaningless IMHO.

When the competition was restructured a few years ago, a change was made in qualification so that qualification from the Pro 14 for European competition is now the same as for England and France. This former PRL gripe is, therefore, no longer relevant. In relation to relegation, my understanding is that the PRL want to eliminate relegation but I am open to correction on this point.

 
Re: Come On Racing
primavesi (IP Logged)
27 April, 2018 08:40
I donīt really buy into all this moaning about the pro 14 advantage. They have hardly dominated the competition over the last 10 years but anyway, its up to them how they structure their league, and if it helps their clubs and national side then good for them. We should be asking how we can improve our structure, particularly the relationship between PRL and the RFU. In Ireland and Wales the sense is that the regions serve the interests of the national team. You only have to read the moaning on here when we lose players to England to realise that it is not the case in England. And then we lose a few 6 nations games and every blames the coach! It just seems strange to blame the Pro 14 for doing things right rather than our setup for doing things badly.

All that being said, I will also be supporting Racing in Bilbao, but just because I really like some of their players, the rugby they play and they have some great fans.

 
Re: Come On Racing
RuggyBuggy (IP Logged)
27 April, 2018 09:19
I always find the theory that the threat of relegation hanging over Prem teams prevents them from resting players and effects their performance in Europe perplexing. The truth is that one team gets cast adrift at the bottom of the Prem every year and their only hope of survival is catching the one team which is a little less pathetic than they are.

Believe it or not, but this years relegation battle is a tight affair compared to recent years, Irish only 9 points behind 11th and 14 points off 10th. They also loaned out one of their best players a couple of months ago, effectively throwing in the towel. Far from being something which strengthens the league, they are actively trying to remove it, given it is such a non-contest.

The point I am making is that relegation is not a serious concern for 10 of the 12 Prem teams. Certainly Saracens can't claim it is a reason for their players not being given a rest in the run up to the Leinster game. The prospect of them missing out on the play offs was also small. As has been pointed out earlier, the Pro14 teams now need to qualify for Europe based on league position. If anything it is more difficult for Pro14 teams to qualify for Europe as they give a spot to the Italians despite league position, meaning less spots for the others to fight over. Basically, the points raised to suggest that Pro14 teams have an advantage don't actually exist (at least not anymore).

I would suggest that the issue is that Saracens spend to much of the salary cap on a small number of players at the expense of having a well rounded squad of players. The secret to Leinster's success is that they have a large squad and an academy that regularly produces players capable of playing professional rugby - when the big guns are rested, the backups are capable of stepping up. It's actually a good model to follow.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 27/04/2018 09:28 by RuggyBuggy.

 
Re: Come On Racing
Roger G (IP Logged)
27 April, 2018 10:24
Ok, I consider myself corrected re qualification from Pro14 but...there was a table posted somewhere on this board that compared how many players from each national side were given a week off after the final 6N weekend. IIRC only one of the fit English players had the week off, whilst only one Irish international was selected for his club. It seems to me that this illustrates that the AP is more competitive than the Pro14 - the clubs just can't afford to take their foot off the gas as much. Maybe it is simply that the club v country balance is different in England.

 
Re: Come On Racing
#wolfpack (IP Logged)
27 April, 2018 10:41
I think it is an issue of a competitive league rather than relegation

Just look what happens to us every international period when our best players go off and play for their country - we lose far more than we win. If these players also don't play the week before European cup games AND have other rests during the season there is no hope of us finishing in the top 6 let alone top 4.

That's why we need to play our guys all the time, so when it comes to playing Leinster in the Aviva they're not in the same state as the Leinster boys. Its certainly not Leinster's fault and they're a fantastic side, but I do believe that they have an advantage over English teams.

 
Re: Come On Racing
RuggyBuggy (IP Logged)
27 April, 2018 15:09
Despite a shakey season (compared to their own very high standards), Saracens are 2nd in the Prem, comfortably in the playoff places. They certainly could have chosen to rest their internationals in the Quins game before playing Leinster without dropping down the league.

Itoje, Mako and Farrell had significant game time during the 6N. Less so for George and Wigglesworth mostly benching, Maitland missed first 6N match, Williams missed the first two. Itoje and Mako could have been held back entirely against Quins, as Farrell was, or at least benched (as Mako did). Was Kruis injured for the Quins game? He started the final 6N game and the Leinster but had been benching for England before that so was less in need of a rest than Itoje.

Anyway, the point is that most of the excuses thrown out are just that, excuses. They mean very little when you dig down into them. The advantages Leinster enjoy are that they have a very strong squad, in good form individually and playing really well as a unit, not to mention many of them having a good time on the international scene too, much like Saries the previous two seasons! That is all.

 
Re: Come On Racing
TOKS (IP Logged)
27 April, 2018 16:01
[quote Leinster Lady][quote #wolfpack][quote #wolfpack]which is many times Leinster's budget[/quote]

I think you'll find it isn't. And that's not to say that Racing's isn't fairly sizeable.

Unless you're suggesting that Sexton moved back because he liked his Granny's apple pie.

 
Re: Come On Racing
King Zak (IP Logged)
28 April, 2018 10:44
I have no doubt that Leinster have been the best team in Europe this season, as Saracens were for the last two seasons. The bit I donít understand is who funds the Irish provinces? I realise that many players are contracted to the IRFU and I assume therefore that their wages are paid by the Union. Whatís the salary cap in the Pro 14? Does it include centrally contracted players? (Genuine question because I donít know exactly how it works in the Pro14)



Nous sommes l'armťe noir et rouge !

 
Re: Come On Racing
Leinster Lady (IP Logged)
28 April, 2018 10:54
Has anybody here got two tickets for the Leinster Vs Racing final that they do not need. I would like to buy two tickets for the final.

 
Re: Come On Racing
Highbury Saracen (IP Logged)
28 April, 2018 16:05
Think Leinster are resting first team again today!! smiling smiley



European champions 2016 & 2017

 
Re: Come On Racing
Leinster Lady (IP Logged)
28 April, 2018 20:13
Quote:
Highbury Saracen
Think Leinster are resting first team again today!! smiling smiley

Yes Leinster rested players today but it badly backfired because we got beaten by a pumped-up Connacht. It just shows that the so-called weaker sides in the Pro 14 are no push-overs. Connacht, Edinburgh and Cardiff all topped their groups in the Euro Challenge Cup and Cardiff are in the final. In fact I remember one occasion a few years ago when Connacht pushed Saracens very close in a Euro match. Despite today's set back for Leinster they still qualify for a home semifinal for the Pro14. Fingers crossed we are now just three games away from replicating Saracens proud achievement of doing the double.

 
Re: Come On Racing
Leinster Lady (IP Logged)
29 April, 2018 19:10
Quote:
King Zak
I have no doubt that Leinster have been the best team in Europe this season, as Saracens were for the last two seasons. The bit I donít understand is who funds the Irish provinces? I realise that many players are contracted to the IRFU and I assume therefore that their wages are paid by the Union. Whatís the salary cap in the Pro 14? Does it include centrally contracted players? (Genuine question because I donít know exactly how it works in the Pro14)

Hi King Zak, Each of the four provinces in Ireland has its own budget based on its income stream from ticket sales, sponsorship and TV money from the Pro 14. Unfortunately the TV money is very small in the Pro 14 in comparison with England or France due to the small TV viewership in the Pro14 countries. Each province is expected to develop its own players through its academy and IRFU approval is required to import Players who are not qualified to play for Ireland because the IRFU has only four teams from which to pick players so it does not want these teams to be full of ineligible players. Those players who are selected for central contracts with IRFU are then paid by the IRFU rather than the province. No salary cap applies but the IRFU and the provinces must operate within their budgets. The question is sometimes asked as to why more Irish players are not attracted to play in France where much higher salaries apply. The reason for this is that the IRFU will not select Irish players who play abroad to play with the Irish team because it cannot control the players welfare etc. The Irish players tend not to be content with success only for their province but also want to represent their country.Also players on central contracts with the IRFU are rested more often so their career can last a few years longer than if they were playing in France and subject to more injuries etc. ( The one exception to this rule was Johnny Sexton who played for Racing for two years and was still selected for Ireland because there was no adequate replacement.)

 
Re: Come On Racing
King Zak (IP Logged)
29 April, 2018 19:52
Thank you very much LL for an enlightening response 👍👍



Nous sommes l'armťe noir et rouge !

 
Re: Come On Racing
Gryff (IP Logged)
30 April, 2018 09:58
One of the reasons players also stay in Ireland is the Sportsman and Artists Tax Break which allows them to reclaim 40% of their tax for 10 years.

 
Re: Come On Racing
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
12 May, 2018 17:31
All square 6-6 at half time. Too close to call.

 
Re: Come On Racing
sarricen (IP Logged)
12 May, 2018 18:29
Racing deserved it today. Absolute idiocy from Thomas at the end

 
Re: Come On Racing
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
12 May, 2018 18:30
FT score 15-12 to Leinster. A very poor final though, the least entertaining for many years IMHO.

 
Re: Come On Racing
london pride (IP Logged)
12 May, 2018 18:32
Racing fell just short, I did'nt think it was that bad a game though.Lets hope that we have just loaned Leinster our trophy for a year, and this time next year it's back in its rightfull place,Allianz Park.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/05/2018 18:33 by london pride.

 
Re: Come On Racing
vunipolae (IP Logged)
12 May, 2018 18:33
Thought racing were the better team. Three big mistakes (losing the ball at the back of the ruck 5 metres out, Thomas's brainless run into touch and rushing the drop goal at the end) cost them the game. Not a good final in terms of beautiful flowing rugby and neither team played their best rugby. Maybe we would have won on the day but Leinster were definately the best team in the competition this season so they deserve it

 
Re: Come On Racing
flavman 35 (IP Logged)
12 May, 2018 18:59
I thought Racing had Leinster today. Thier scrum half was way to slow getting the ball out, so every time they created a bit of space he just stood there and allowed a good defensive outfit to regather thier shape.
One time even standing there while the ball was out. It took the lock to dive past him to try and secure the ball.
Leinster did not really offer the attacking threat that I thought they would.
Racing gave that gave away in my view

 
Re: Come On Racing
colinmiddx (IP Logged)
12 May, 2018 20:15
How many times have Sarries growned out a win.

Racing worked out what they had to do to beat Leinster and they tried BUT (as Sarries have done) Leinster adapted and worked out how to keep the pressure on for 80 mins (backed up by good D) and in the end Racing made the mistakes and Leinster became European Champions the fourth time (as Sarries will do in two years).

I enjoyed the match, it was not a free flowing game but Leinster adapted and won through.

Sarries have done this so we cant say Leinster did't deserve the win.

I want to be be saying well done Sarries but :-

Well done Leinster.

 
Re: Come On Racing
RuggyBuggy (IP Logged)
12 May, 2018 23:49
Not sure that Racing deserved to win that. They found themselves in the lead with 10 minutes to go and had the upper hand but never really looked like putting Leinster away. Deserving champions like Sarries the last two years and Toulon before them would have closed it out from there.

That slow ponderous stuff towards the end might win a Top14 game against a half interested away team but not a European final. They also made a mess of the drop goal set up, one thing a Top14 team should be able to do! They looked like they were set a phase earlier but then gave it to the forwards again and never looked comfortable off that ruck but went for it anyway.

Nakarawa was blessed not to get a yellow card. I also think their full back should have been binned for his "tackle" on Hewshaw in the first half - he had time to line him up and execute a proper tackle, instead he headbutted him in the face. Leinster didn't even get a penalty! On a drier day I think Leinster would have run in a few tries, they were exerting the pressure, particularly in the first half.

 
Re: Come On Racing
MarchingIn (IP Logged)
13 May, 2018 09:04
Credit has to go to both teams defence but it was like watching Saracens Vs Saracens at times.

In terms of the "closed shop" 4 province system, I don't suppose you can knock the national side's form but it's not very inspiring domestic rugby. In some respects its a shame for the game that there's no link up between the IRFU & London Irish.

 
Re: Come On Racing
Leinster Lady (IP Logged)
13 May, 2018 19:09
Hard luck to Racing. They really had their home work done on Leinster's attack and they put in a massive defensive effort. In the end, however, the experience of the senior Leinster players ( four of whom now have four European Championship medals ) ensured that they did not panic even when they were still trailing after 70 minutes. I thought that the defensive effort began to take its toll on Racing after 70 minutes and they started making a lot of errors. Leinster will now be determined to win the double by winning the Pro 14, a feat which they never achieved before even though they were beaten Pro 12 finalists on two previous occasions when they were European champions. ( On one occasion they achieved a sort of double by winning the Pro 12 and the Amlin Challenge Cup in the one season.) The game itself was not the best advertisement for Rugby due to the lack of any tries in the game and I am sure that a lot of the Bilboa locals who attended the match must have really been confused by the various rules and penalties etc. Bilboa was a great location for the final but very expensive to get there and to stay there. I am looking forward to Newcastle already and hoping that Leinster can be there to get a fifth win.

 
Re: Come On Racing
#wolfpack (IP Logged)
14 May, 2018 08:48
I don't think Racing did enough to win that. If their 9 could pass half as well as he can kick they may have had a shot. As such I think Leinster were reasonably comfortable throughout.

 
Re: Come On Racing
primavesi (IP Logged)
14 May, 2018 15:43
Great weekend overall, with plenty of Sarries fans in attendance, but the game was sadly not the best.

I also thought Leinster deserved it on the day, just, and that they have been the best team in the tournament this year.

Next year, without a brutal Lions tour, I expect Sarries to be much more formidable.

Tickets for Newcastle come on sale tomorrow......

 
Re: Come On Racing
JO'G (IP Logged)
15 May, 2018 08:33
Watched the game in s pub and again since. Really thought that racing deserved it. Basically the game came down to 3 or 4 offside decisions almost all kickable

Leinster overall in the competition were worthy winners but just wondering if we had met them in the demi or final we might have sneaked it

 
Re: Come On Racing
TOKS (IP Logged)
15 May, 2018 10:14
Leinster know how to win, Racing still need to learn how to. In a close game I think that was the difference.

However, of greater importance.....

Last Saturday was the last time we will have to listen to Stuart Barnes waxing lyrically about an Irish province playing on the European stage (Sky still have the Pro 14 so he'll have to get it out of his system there).

What a relief that will be!

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