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Re: England Team - good grief!
LutonS (IP Logged)
10 June, 2018 11:19
Quote:
BarnetSarrie
Eddie isn't a rubbish coach - he is a good coach, but he isnt playing players where they should be

A good coach wouldn't do this game after game, especially at test level.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
Barnetsarrie12 (IP Logged)
10 June, 2018 14:30
Apart from the first 20, we really were not in the game. I think Faf got under Maro's skin and he was poor with his discipline as was Jamie. The Mako yellow was to me a result of all the accumulated hits on Faf and the ref probably had enough.

The worrying thing from an England perspective is that 60 minutes of that game, the boks dominated and they were playing a new second row combination, a new back 3, new centre partnership, a new back row, a new front row combination and uncapped and inexperienced players everywhere and they still won and dominated 75 percent of the game, that is worrying as they will only get better.

I think what the game also showed is that England is way too over reliant on Billy and he was nullified yesterday and Duane V played better than him. Teams are going to target that as a ploy to shut England down going forward.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
mike909 (IP Logged)
10 June, 2018 14:38
Hi there, thought I'd pop on over as our forum is down all the time

Good summary - the SA team had debutant wingers and a 12 with 3 mins experience vs the multicapped England backs and an England pack including 4 of many people's Lions pack and the experienced Robshaw.

As you say, after SA defended for 20 mins like Wasps U 16s after night on the cider, there was only one team in it. SA's inexperience nearly cost them a famous victory, more famous as its only the second time ever, I believe, a Tier 1 country has come back from 21 points down.

I recently saw a poster elsewhere set out how Eddie lost the Sarries dressing room when DoR - do you think that he's lost the England dressing room?

The side looks shot.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
John Tee (IP Logged)
10 June, 2018 15:35
I said as much a few weeks ago but people think that is only a football analogy. I don't agree. They aren't playing for him....and I dont see a way back from that.

Who knows what goes on inside camp but I think you need to be able to deal with many disparate personalities and characters and if you have a 'record' of failing off a cliffe after two years or so, maybe there is a flaw in the way you do things and treat people...?

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
mike909 (IP Logged)
10 June, 2018 15:46
It was impressive how well Itoje, Mako and George played in the end of season games for Sarries - absolutely awesome, in contrast to the players on display for England

We had the bizarre first 20 mins where it looked like England had enjoyed having an attack coach. Though it did look rather like the first try vs Italy x 3....after which England allowed them back into the game.

No one "put their foot on the ball" at 24-3 up and just did the basics. I'd have backed Sarries to win the test match from there.

On top of all that, the pick of the team and bench was "bold" such that there was no SR cover and a most likely not match fit Hughes too.

SA will be better for the game. Where do England go from here?

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
#wolfpack (IP Logged)
10 June, 2018 17:10
Just watched first half again—

Bringing Nick off was baffling. Not sure what he had done wrong. Can anyone explain?

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
John Tee (IP Logged)
10 June, 2018 17:32
No, couldnt see it at the time, so baffled. Two possible guesses.... Altitude and he was the sacrificial lamb out of many if all were suffering...or he was overawed.
I'm not sure a decent man manager would do that to a young player without a massive repair job to pick the player up. I'm assuming that will happen but will he feature in any of the other games at all...?

I can get the altitude excuse, although this isn't a surprise so we should have been prepared for that or trained for it etc.. I can get Daly having a mare few minutes which were costly but it is the more worrying inability to follow a designated game plan and execute it.
It is as though we train and then forget all about it come the weekend. This, for professional sportsmen point to a deeper issue...Imo.
This game is not a one off.... We were blown away by the Baas and in the 6n's which is why I think it is a coaching thing.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
neils (IP Logged)
10 June, 2018 18:07
Altitude - apparently England trained all week at sea level and the Boks knew this and played accordingly. Baffling decision by management.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
HonkyTonk (IP Logged)
10 June, 2018 19:11
I don't think Isiekwe was subbed for tactical reasons, I think Jones just wanted to get some experience and leadership (he hoped). England were crumbling and needed some leadership (I though we lacked it yesterday, and that is not a dig at Farrell). I may get shot down for saying this but if he wanted to make a move and bring Sheilds on at lock I would have taken off Itoje instead.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
BarnetSarrie (IP Logged)
10 June, 2018 22:02
Far as I know even though they were in Durban they HAD done some altitude training beforehand ... whether that was enough is clearly open to question - I saw some of the boys going back to England before the end of the season and they werent really looking forward to that part of it (so that's why I'm saying this) - and then there's the given that the coaching team with Gussy and Borthers are very thorough, so that would have been a massive oversight if it were the case; but irrespective of whether Nick was or wasnt subbed for tactical reasons you have to compare that decision to the way Mark and the Sarries coaching team deal with players who aren't having the game go their way - they show faith in the player and give them the opportunity to show their worth and come off the field in a positive way.

Mike909 and JohnTee - I do wonder whether you are right about Eddie losing the dressing room. Who knows? I suspect it is different for each player. Eddie likes to pull people down and then build them up again. That's the way he operates. The trouble is that maybe when the whole team is down, that becomes much harder to do. It is much easier when the team as a whole is winning..... I just wonder how much 'joy' their is in the England camp. I do know when I watch Saracens there is plenty ... and that it is a differentiator.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
mike909 (IP Logged)
10 June, 2018 23:20
Hi BS

Do you know anything about EJ's period at Sarries and why/how it ended?

This was posted elsewhere

Quote:
He managed to seriously @#$%& off some players. I had some dialogues repeated to me between players and Jones, from someone who was part of the club, and they were very confrontational. Not necessarily a bad thing, but he did manage to alienate a significant number of players who felt no loyalty to his regime.

He had 'favourites', that is players who simply could do no wrong despite what happened on the pitch. By far the worst was Chris Jack who, at his time at Saracens was highly disruptive and bone idle. I recall Gaffney/Jones having a press conference where they said the team performance fell short because Chris Jack was so much better than everyone else in the team that they simply couldn't understand what he wished to achieve. The squad included Richard Hill at that time.

He insisted in putting players out of position, and he didn't change his strategy to suit the players that were available, rather using the same squad without variation. The problem with that was, when the performance of his chosen few started to fall away as they got jaded, the team was not able to sustain good results. In the Gaffney/Jones era that was most evident with Jackson and de Kock, as I recall.

When he eventually got the boot, only Borthwick kicked up a fuss and, within one season, Saracens went from 8th in the table to 2nd under Venter, who had no 'star' players, but adapted the game plan to match the players that he had available.

Sound right?

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
primavesi (IP Logged)
11 June, 2018 08:31
People reading way too much into this as expected (you can bet the same people would have been playing the result down if we had won). Any excuse for some England/Eddie bashing I guess.


This is a daft tour that should have been treated as a development tour by management, with a similar team selected to the Argentina tour last summer. As usual though, the RFU only pays lip service to player welfare, hence the likes of Maro, Jamie and Owen being flogged again, and now having played several years of non stop rugby, with a world cup next year.

I expected us to lose given that our players are coming off the back of a 9 month season (European teams always struggle in these summer tours) and that the game was being played at altitude at a ground where only New Zealand has won as a visiting team. The fact that we produced some good rugby in the first 20 minutes, showed good character when down to 14 and came close to nicking it at the end were all pleasant surprised. The disappointing bits for me was the on field decision making once we got the lead and the lack of discipline, for which some our our players were among the worst culprits i´m afraid. The defence was poor, but i put a lot of that down to fitness. We also certainly did not get the rub of the referee decisions, but you should never blame that.

All in all, an enjoyable if not especially informative game. We might win the 3rd test in cape town.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
JO'G (IP Logged)
11 June, 2018 08:58
I managed to get a feed with just the crowd and the ref-link. All of the green offences in the second half came from the assistant refs; and quite a high proportion in the first half

I think New Zealand have found a replacement for Steve Walsh

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
JO'G (IP Logged)
11 June, 2018 09:09
on the plus side I thought Spenno had a decent 10 minutes when he came on. Drove the players forward and upped the tempo of the performance.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
primavesi (IP Logged)
11 June, 2018 09:11
Quote:
JO'G
on the plus side I thought Spenno had a decent 10 minutes when he came on. Drove the players forward and upped the tempo of the performance.

Agreed - he really upped the energy levels.

Hopefully he gets some decent game time and maybe even starts a test.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
#wolfpack (IP Logged)
11 June, 2018 09:12
Quote:
primavesi
People reading way too much into this as expected (you can bet the same people would have been playing the result down if we had won). Any excuse for some England/Eddie bashing I guess.

This is a daft tour that should have been treated as a development tour by management, with a similar team selected to the Argentina tour last summer. As usual though, the RFU only pays lip service to player welfare, hence the likes of Maro, Jamie and Owen being flogged again, and now having played several years of non stop rugby, with a world cup next year.



Throughout the 6N my opinion was England are still a good side and EJ still has lots of credit, but our players are tired / injured / not fit so no need to panic. I also agree with you that this tour is daft and should have been a player development tour. The fact they were tired from the Lions over the 6N and the fact this tour was organised in the first place is not his fault.

The problem is that Eddie Jones selected the players to go on this tour.

It isn't anyone else's fault that the Lions players are there and worked into the dirt. It also isn't anyone else's fault that the 'squad' / 'bench' combinations look so weak so as to make a nonsense of the whole tour.

I know they're ours (or in Nathan's case was ours) but there is no logical reason whatsoever that Nathan Earle or Ben Earl should be touring with England. They don't get near the Sarries first team squad. Are they going to play? Obviously not - so who else do you select as a winger? Well it'll have to be Solomona on the bench...who also doesn't deserve to be there. You want to play Daly at 15, so who plays on his vacated wing? It has to Mike Brown who just isn't quick enough (despite a pretty good effort) against some nifty SA wingers.

Selecting Ben Teo as the only 12 means that when he inevitably gets injured (like he has been all year) you're stuck. So Farrell HAS to play 12 because no one else can. So the 10-12-13 combination is going to be Ford/Cipriani, Farrell, Slade/Loz. How are we going to stuff it up the jumper to slow the pace of a test match with that combination? You can only play one way and that is lateral.

Going into a test match with no second row cover... Who does that?

Did Billy look fit? He hasn't played 80 minutes of rugby for goodness knows how long. Even in a premiership final Saracens didn't play him for 80 minutes. Yet EJ plays him for 80 minutes at altitude in a ferociously paced test match. He must back his fitness regime to get a big lump like Billy up to that speed in just 2 weeks with no ill effects!

I don't think England are a bad team, and up to now have been very pro EJ. But I think his squad and team selections for this tour are crazy. Either you do it properly, or you have a development squad. It is stupid to fudge and try and do both. AND the number of injuries that come out of the England camp is and remains a concern.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/2018 09:14 by #wolfpack.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
daz_71 (IP Logged)
11 June, 2018 12:11
Why was Eddie brought in to coach England - to aim to win the 2019 World Cup? To do that you need to build up your performances and peak at the right time in 2019. Are we doing that - NO!

We all got caught up with the initial 18 - 24 months of his reign. But when you look at that period of time he basically took Stuart Lancaster's team (and largely squad) and organised them a little better and had instant success. However has he been successful at bringing through other players to the squad and I don't think he has. There seems to be a bit of an infatuation with English qualified southern hemisphere players - T'eo, Francis and now Shields. It's obviously too early to judge Shields but are they a dramatic improvement on what we have in the Premiership - for me that is answer is no.

Then you have the constant comments about England's over training. I've read that being fit enough for the Premiership isn't good enough for International rugby. I think that's rubbish - with the high presure matches Saracens have played in the past 2 years can anyone tell me they aren't fit enough for international rugby. With all the injuries being picked up in training if we are not careful our players won't be the fittest they have ever been for the WC they will be the most tired group to play at a WC

I genuinely think Eddie has been 'found out'. In many ways it was far easier to coach Japan to 'success'. There isn't the scruitiny from the public and the media that you are going to get with an England etc. I've seen him referred to as 'still a good coach. Good coach's don't constantly pick players out of position!

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
mike909 (IP Logged)
11 June, 2018 12:53
Quote:
#wolfpack

I don't think England are a bad team, and up to now have been very pro EJ. But I think his squad and team selections for this tour are crazy. Either you do it properly, or you have a development squad. It is stupid to fudge and try and do both. AND the number of injuries that come out of the England camp is and remains a concern.

I agree 100% with your post re selections and the tour. Who is on the pitch and who is on the bench is down to EJ. I have had doubts about EJ since the AIs in 2016 when the gloss of the Aussie tour started to wear off, the 2017 6Ns included a number of get of trouble cards played and ended up in a defeat in Dublin

Struggling to see who England go forwards

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
11 June, 2018 13:05
It's possibly the case that all coaching careers, like politicians', end in failure.

What's surprising is that Yoda's coaching career seems to be a succession of bright starts followed by burn-out and failure.



£676.97 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2017.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
John Tee (IP Logged)
11 June, 2018 13:22
Also, what is concerning is how you arrest the result decline we are in.
My opinion is that you very rarely do.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
BarnetSarrie (IP Logged)
11 June, 2018 14:01
Quote:
mike909
Hi BS
Do you know anything about EJ's period at Sarries and why/how it ended?

This was posted elsewhere

Quote:
He managed to seriously @#$%& off some players. I had some dialogues repeated to me between players and Jones, from someone who was part of the club, and they were very confrontational. Not necessarily a bad thing, but he did manage to alienate a significant number of players who felt no loyalty to his regime.

He had 'favourites', that is players who simply could do no wrong despite what happened on the pitch. By far the worst was Chris Jack who, at his time at Saracens was highly disruptive and bone idle. I recall Gaffney/Jones having a press conference where they said the team performance fell short because Chris Jack was so much better than everyone else in the team that they simply couldn't understand what he wished to achieve. The squad included Richard Hill at that time.

He insisted in putting players out of position, and he didn't change his strategy to suit the players that were available, rather using the same squad without variation. The problem with that was, when the performance of his chosen few started to fall away as they got jaded, the team was not able to sustain good results. In the Gaffney/Jones era that was most evident with Jackson and de Kock, as I recall.

When he eventually got the boot, only Borthwick kicked up a fuss and, within one season, Saracens went from 8th in the table to 2nd under Venter, who had no 'star' players, but adapted the game plan to match the players that he had available.

Sound right?

Even if I did know the answer to all of this I wouldn't post it on the messageboard Mike.
Some of it is of course obviously true - the bit about Sarries rapid rise for instance - but then remember we had been in a Heineken Cup Semi final - which we should probably have won under the Gaffer - which doesnt fit it the rags to riches Saracens Edward Griffiths rewrite and which is conveniently always overlooked.

I think ALL coaches have favourites - that's just human nature! Steve Diamond brought quite a few of his boys with him when he came to Saracens for example.

I cant and wont comment on what happened at Saracens, but in terms of England now, it's fairly obvious that he has 'core' players who are permanently inked in. It is clear that he doesnt mind moving players from their usual positions - whether through necessity because of injury or because he thinks they may be more effective somewhere else and we have seen him publicly castigate England players. In Saracens case - Maro initially, then Jamie and more recently Ben Earl (and just remember how he described Ben Youngs and dealt with him - the sweets?) because his style is to bring players down and then publicly build them up again. I'm guessing that works in some cases, but not in others. I totally agree with Daz's point about the Saracens contingent in particular not being fit enough for international rugby. What rubbish! Saracens training and physio is one of the biggest unsung differentiators between our club and its competition. I genuinely don't think there is a 'step up' from OUR club training to England and I think that the standard of the best teams in Europe in the Champions Cup is right up there!

I also agree with pretty much everything Wolfpack has said. The Centre conundrum has been one of England's biggest problems for years now. Moving Owen there looks to me like a fudge rather than really looking for a coterie of true centres and allowing Faz to move back to where he belongs - at 10. Ford is a skilled 10 to be sure when he is in a team outmuscling the opposition - (there were some lovely touches on Saturday - and in contrast also some lapses where he was literally run over)! but I have never seen him play effectively either at club or international level, when that isn't the case. And just when are England EVER going to play the bigger international teams and dominate the breakdown, contact and set piece against the world's best sides allowing him to have that space? Eddie has had time to sort these problems out - but he hasn't. (and Adey - that is without me mentioning the problems on the wing.)

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
mike909 (IP Logged)
11 June, 2018 14:20
Thanks BS

I think you've covered everything there!

His track record paints one picture - I'm expecting a similar pattern to follow.....

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
daz_71 (IP Logged)
11 June, 2018 16:09
He is with us to the World Cup, I have no doubt about that and probably rightly so but that 2 year contract extension is now looking a little foolhardy!

I've seen a few negative comments over the past few days about Gussie's defence and coaching. I feel this is harsh, although perhaps understandable. At Sarries he had Brad at 12 who is simply a rock that the entire defensive system is built around. If you look at Saturday you have Faz who although he hits hard simply isn't the tackling machine that Brad is. When you put Slade alongside Faz and then Ford inside of him that just looks a soft centre waiting to be run at (or over).

If you look at the 2nd half performance of NZ on the weekend I think there would be real danger they could put 70 points on us at the moment. Now hopefully Eddie will come to his senses a bit regarding selection (i'm not holding my breath) and that we get all of our players fit and keep them fit. If we don't then next 18 months may become very painful.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
BarnetSarrie (IP Logged)
11 June, 2018 17:35
Funny isnt it - those of us on this board and supporting Saracens know full well just how vital Brad is to the functioning of Sarries both in attack and defence. Daz makes a really excellent point. He is the fulcrum. If you did a chart correlating our wins and losses with Brad's injuries I bet the result would be illuminating! But it just shows that for all of the spotlight on the back row, the key to England functioning effectively is to sort out the problem at both inside and outside Centre and allow Owen to go back to 10. IMHO that is and has been the real key for years. My biggest criticism of Eddie has little to do with training, the way we are told he treats the players, the inclusion of Hartley or Brown - it is in expecting players to change position for England and then go back to where they were first noticed at club level. He has had well over two years to try to solve the centre issue and has fudged it by moving Owen.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
SBFez (IP Logged)
12 June, 2018 09:09
Slightly off from other points raised and I'm not sure if it's just because we're spoiled at club level... but surely you have to have a replacement hooker that you back to make lineouts. I'm a big fan of Cowan-Dickie's game in the loose, but in the lineout he's always looked dodgy to me and I felt as soon as we had that last minute lineout at the weekend that it was all over. Agreed he will only learn from the experience and it's not all to do with the hooker- but he doesn't exactly inspire confidence in me either way

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
John Tee (IP Logged)
12 June, 2018 11:15
This is why Hartley stays in contention. The guys chasing the position don't quite have the numbers in the line out.. so Hartley being in big credit for his line outs and probably for his scrum work plus his perceived captaincy puts him still up there.
The new guys after his position can offer much about the field but maybe Jones wants a stable platform early in the game and he feels Hartley offers that.
Probably why Brown is still there. They may be slightly the better all round package, still.
All picks have compromises...it depends which ones you most value.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
Poking With Sticks (IP Logged)
12 June, 2018 15:02
Quote:
SBFez
Slightly off from other points raised and I'm not sure if it's just because we're spoiled at club level... but surely you have to have a replacement hooker that you back to make lineouts. I'm a big fan of Cowan-Dickie's game in the loose, but in the lineout he's always looked dodgy to me and I felt as soon as we had that last minute lineout at the weekend that it was all over. Agreed he will only learn from the experience and it's not all to do with the hooker- but he doesn't exactly inspire confidence in me either way

Didn't look like there was much wrong with that throw to me. The Saffer jumper just got up ahead of ours.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
John Tee (IP Logged)
12 June, 2018 16:21
Launchbury coming home would mean Isiekwe gets back on the horse pretty quickly which is good news.
Jones can then pick Shields in the back row for added experience for the team.
That may mean Robshaw makes way..?

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
AlanE (IP Logged)
12 June, 2018 17:38
Quote:
John Tee
Launchbury coming home would mean Isiekwe gets back on the horse pretty quickly which is good news.
Jones can then pick Shields in the back row for added experience for the team.
That may mean Robshaw makes way..?

Nothing would surprise me in selection now. Shields for 3 tests at lock?



I was 17 miles from Graybridge before I was caught by the school leopard

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
vunipolae (IP Logged)
12 June, 2018 21:33
I agree with Poking With Sticks, nothing wrong with the throw, it was just very obvious where it was going with the players we had on the pitch and lack of jumping options. Generally he's not the best but let's see how the next two tests go

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
#wolfpack (IP Logged)
13 June, 2018 09:30
Quote:
AlanE
Quote:
John Tee
Launchbury coming home would mean Isiekwe gets back on the horse pretty quickly which is good news.
Jones can then pick Shields in the back row for added experience for the team.
That may mean Robshaw makes way..?

Nothing would surprise me in selection now. Shields for 3 tests at lock?

Reports are that Shields will be starting at lock in the second test. He hasn't played there at club level for 4 years.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
mike909 (IP Logged)
13 June, 2018 11:49
I thought you were having a laugh but....

[www.stuff.co.nz]

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
AB (IP Logged)
13 June, 2018 12:21
Unreal if he plays Shields in second row and that will mean retaining Robshaw

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
mike909 (IP Logged)
13 June, 2018 12:33
Quote:
AB
Unreal if he plays Shields in second row and that will mean retaining Robshaw

Seems undroppable - must an Eddie favourite, who can do no wrong.......

AND, what message does that send to Jonny and Nick as real locks?

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
John Tee (IP Logged)
13 June, 2018 15:17
No doubt I'd play Isiekwe if he wasn't blown away by the substitution. If not play Hill. I'd put them in and tell them we need them to step up etc..
If they survive this, we have a player....if not, we lose them the damage is done.
This is why the tour result was a rubbish target anyway...
Imo.
Can't see this is being handled very well from a man management poverty..?

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
1876-Fez (IP Logged)
13 June, 2018 19:31
Launchbury probably to start as 2nd row, should imagine Shields will start in back row. .. let's hope a proper 2nd row replacement on the bench.

[www.bbc.co.uk]



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Re: England Team - good grief!
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
14 June, 2018 11:36
Quote:
1876-Fez
Launchbury probably to start as 2nd row, should imagine Shields will start in back row. .. let's hope a proper 2nd row replacement on the bench.
[www.bbc.co.uk]

You got the starting line-up, but there's still no second row cover.

Yoga even waffled on about SA having a strong line-out, then did nothing about it - unless anyone thinks that Shields for Robshaw is a line-out solution!



£676.97 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2017.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
The Bard (IP Logged)
14 June, 2018 12:25
Bizarre yet again. An less than fully fit Launchbury playing at altitude? How long will that last? Surely Nick would have provided number 6 cover too. Why not 6-2 split on the bench ?

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
1876-Fez (IP Logged)
14 June, 2018 12:51
He's a stubborn @#$%& tyat Jones.
Can't believe no 2nd row cover...

Feel for Nick.



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Re: England Team - good grief!
Raggs (IP Logged)
14 June, 2018 12:54
Jones was brought in for the 2019 world cup, and needs to get the team to peak for then (as someone said), why would you expect to be seeing a peak 15 months out?

Isiekwe was awful in clearing rucks (both in quantity and quality), probably at least part of why he was removed. Shields much improved that aspect, and he went up in more lineouts than any other English forward.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
RuggyBuggy (IP Logged)
14 June, 2018 14:09
Quote:
Raggs
Jones was brought in for the 2019 world cup, and needs to get the team to peak for then (as someone said), why would you expect to be seeing a peak 15 months out?

He should be building a squad for RWC. Look at SA, with EE and LdJ out and PSdT in the back row, they have their 6th choice lock involved this weekend. England are playing their established first choice lock pairing and don't even have cover for them despite one being flogged since Loins tour and the other only recovered from injury. If even there was an opportunity to test new guys against a tier one side, this is it.

And don't talk about Shields covering lock, he was brought in to fix problems in the back row, he shouldn't be double jobbing in the engine room. Having Shields train as a primary line out jumper isn't going to help the back row unit. If the back row is going well with Shields, you risk upsetting that if he needs to shift to lock.

Persisting with Brown and Ford despite form doesn't scream peaking in 15 months to me.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
Raggs (IP Logged)
14 June, 2018 14:11
Quote:
RuggyBuggy
Quote:
Raggs
Jones was brought in for the 2019 world cup, and needs to get the team to peak for then (as someone said), why would you expect to be seeing a peak 15 months out?

He should be building a squad for RWC. Look at SA, with EE and LdJ out and PSdT in the back row, they have their 6th choice lock involved this weekend. England are playing their established first choice lock pairing and don't even have cover for them despite one being flogged since Loins tour and the other only recovered from injury. If even there was an opportunity to test new guys against a tier one side, this is it.

And don't talk about Shields covering lock, he was brought in to fix problems in the back row, he shouldn't be double jobbing in the engine room. Having Shields train as a primary line out jumper isn't going to help the back row unit. If the back row is going well with Shields, you risk upsetting that if he needs to shift to lock.

Persisting with Brown and Ford despite form doesn't scream peaking in 15 months to me.

Lawes, Ewels, Kruis?

Ford had a good game against SA.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
RuggyBuggy (IP Logged)
14 June, 2018 14:39
Quote:
Lawes, Ewels, Kruis?
What about them? Kruis and Lawes are well established. The likes of Ewels (is he injured?), Isiekwe and Hill should be given a chance to show what they can do on this tour.

Quote:
Ford had a good game against SA.

Ford is good behind a strong pack and with front foot ball but limited without this, did anyone really need this confirmed again (and again)? It's the reluctance to try something different, despite continued defeats, which makes no sense.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 14/06/2018 14:40 by RuggyBuggy.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
Waldo (IP Logged)
14 June, 2018 15:00
Sad as it may sound - I'm past caring now.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
Highbury Saracen (IP Logged)
14 June, 2018 15:34
Nick should be on bench at least
Daly 14 Brown 15 & Loz 13



European champions 2016 & 2017

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
Raggs (IP Logged)
14 June, 2018 15:39
Quote:
RuggyBuggy
Quote:
Lawes, Ewels, Kruis?
What about them? Kruis and Lawes are well established. The likes of Ewels (is he injured?), Isiekwe and Hill should be given a chance to show what they can do on this tour.

Quote:
Ford had a good game against SA.

Ford is good behind a strong pack and with front foot ball but limited without this, did anyone really need this confirmed again (and again)? It's the reluctance to try something different, despite continued defeats, which makes no sense.

Ewels is injured, however, the point was that's 5 locks ahead of Isiekwe and 6 locks ahead of Hill. He's supposed to be building a squad for the RWC, and most tier 1 RWC squads have 3-4 locks, Launch, Itoje, Kruis, Lawes. The chance of Hill pushing ahead of any of them? He's in the camp to give him the once over, and if he shines, maybe he'll get later chances. We see the matches, Eddie see's the training, he's getting his chance, even if we don't see it.

Can you please point out the England qualified 10 that doesn't look limited when lacking front foot ball? A number of our tries actually came off the back of pretty poor carries and slow ruck ball, but due to good decision making and execution from Ford, Farrell's being a great example. Ridiculously long ruck, but Ford spots an opportunity, sends out a near perfect miss 2 pass to May in space.

I'm also not sure how much Ford can do when England are giving away back to back stupid penalties. Someone should be bashing skulls in the pack, when 4 lions give up 10 penalties between them, but it's not Ford.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
westwaleswasp (IP Logged)
14 June, 2018 17:37
If Eddie loses the next two and a couple more in the Autumn he won't be at the world cup, that might hinder his preparations somewhat.
Raggs, you defend Eddie as you did with Lancaster, and the promise of jam tomorrow did not materialise with Lancaster, and all the criticism of selection in the centre in particular turned out to be true. It won't materialise for Eddie if he does not start winning soon. England have massive resources and have made 6 u20 finals in a row and yet we have a coach who thinks Mike 'excellent for 23 games, mate' Brown is a winger and seems unable to pick a balanced back row or a team with the correct number of locks.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
RuggyBuggy (IP Logged)
14 June, 2018 18:11
Quote:
Raggs
Ewels is injured, however, the point was that's 5 locks ahead of Isiekwe and 6 locks ahead of Hill. He's supposed to be building a squad for the RWC, and most tier 1 RWC squads have 3-4 locks, Launch, Itoje, Kruis, Lawes. The chance of Hill pushing ahead of any of them? He's in the camp to give him the once over, and if he shines, maybe he'll get later chances. We see the matches, Eddie see's the training, he's getting his chance, even if we don't see it.

Isiekwe and Hill are two of only four locks in the squad, I don't see any sense in ignoring them. Particularly given it is an attritional position, in a game at altitude, against a team who are traditionally strong in that position. Taking a punt on a guy is at least no worse (and possibly more favourable) than the alternative in this case. Last weekend, two locks were injured which is not an unusual situation so building depth is not a bad thing.
Quote:
Can you please point out the England qualified 10 that doesn't look limited when lacking front foot ball? A number of our tries actually came off the back of pretty poor carries and slow ruck ball, but due to good decision making and execution from Ford, Farrell's being a great example. Ridiculously long ruck, but Ford spots an opportunity, sends out a near perfect miss 2 pass to May in space.

Farrell, Cips and Loz can all play 10. I'm not questioning Ford's ability but he is off form (and throwing a couple of nice passes doesn't change that). Again, why not look at the options? An often used definition of insanity is repeatedly doing the same thing but expecting different results, I think this is very applicable to Eddie's recent selections.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
Raggs (IP Logged)
14 June, 2018 20:06
Last weekend 4 locks were unavailable by my count, only one of them in the squad admittedly, but the other two weren't because of other injury. I think Shields did better than Isiekwe, and clearly Eddie rates Isiekwe higher than Hill. Eddie took a punt on playing Shields at lock, and it didn't backfire.

Faz and Cips can play 10, Loz I'm not convinced he's good enough at AP level, let alone international. However when has Faz shown any ability to play on the back foot? Cips is a bit different, since he get's Wasps on the front foot in a slightly different way to how England play, but Cips would need to be at 10 for seasons, to get everyone on the right level, and would be no better (potentially slightly worse) in defence. Cips should have been picked seasons ago, now I don't see much reason to dump the younger and more internationally experienced Ford for him. None of them is going to be able to do much when their pack is giving away a load of penalties, most of them needlessly.

Ford is not the problem, and to swap him out would be to completely ignore where that game was won and lost.

WestWalesWasp, I defended Lancaster for a fair while, but not completely. I disagreed with his selection of Faz at 10, as he was far too limited at the time (to his and saracens credit, I'd now not be against his selection there, but still feel Ford is the better playmaker). I disagreed with his selection of Barritt at 12, since I felt he limited our attack too much (and again, since I'm on a Saracens forum, I should probably point out that now I'd probably be look at Brad at 12 for England, since his game has also come along), and disagreed with his shoddy treatment of Eastmond. I also felt that he completely ruined our pack with his pre-rwc camp, and ignored the one forward that still seemed to have some genuine power and form, Haskell, until it was too late. Where I defended Lancaster, was when people were blaming him for everything, no matter what, and ignoring the fact that up until the world cup (which he screwed up royally), he was one of our most successful coaches. I'd also point out that people love to think that someone else is "defending" a coach, when they try and suggest the reasons behind the coaches thinking, agreeing with it or not. I tend to take the approach (as the discussion on the Wasps board shows) that a team of professional rugby coaches, in close contact with these players day in, day out, probably have some reasoning behind their selections, even if us amateurs disagree, they aren't simply idiots.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
primavesi (IP Logged)
15 June, 2018 08:49
Agree with Raggs, we have seen enough of the Ford/Farrell 10/12 combo to stick with it to the world cup.

This "cant play behind a struggling pack" cliche is a red herring anyway. All 10s look better if their pack is on top but Ford copes just as well as the rest when presented with slower ball.

On the one hand, people say he needs to pick on form, in other words dropping players who are not in form (as long as they are not Sarries players). They say he has his core group that he stays loyal to (who doesnt). On the other, people then complain that he has not picked a settled team and given combinations the time to gel. He can´t win.

As I said earlier in the week, our players are coming off the back of a long season, playing at altitude in a stadium where only New Zealand have won, yet still managed to play some good stuff and only narrowly lost. People reading way too much into it, just for the sake of some England/Eddie bashing.

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