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Re: England Team - good grief!
RuggyBuggy (IP Logged)
15 June, 2018 10:35
Quote:
Raggs
Eddie took a punt on playing Shields at lock, and it didn't backfire.

Didn't backfire is one thing but having the guy specifically brought in from abroad to address issues in the back row double jobbing in the second row is certainly questionable. Even if he can adequately fill a gap at lock (which remains to be seen), the gap in the back row remains. And why does this situation arise - because Eddie overlooked experienced locks in favour of less experienced guys he doesn't seem to trust. What was the point in bringing Isiekwe and Hill if between them amass a mere 30 mins of game time on this tour? Shields covering lock at the expense of back row (which he was brought in to play) is a symptom of wider selection issues.

Quote:
Ford is not the problem, and to swap him out would be to completely ignore where that game was won and lost.

I am not saying that Ford is the problem no more than you are saying that he is the solution to all England's problems. Giving someone else the jersey might get something extra out of Ford. Too many players are under preforming yet they appear untouchable. Ford is just one such example, same applies to Youngs, Brown and, until this week, Robshaw. Again the problems are wider than an individual player.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
RuggyBuggy (IP Logged)
15 June, 2018 10:46
Quote:
primavesi
As I said earlier in the week, our players are coming off the back of a long season, playing at altitude in a stadium where only New Zealand have won, yet still managed to play some good stuff and only narrowly lost. People reading way too much into it, just for the sake of some England/Eddie bashing.

The issues being raised are not that England lost a game which there is no shame in losing. The problem for me is the coaches belligerence when it comes to squad and team selection (not to mention his general demeanour and getting into petty squabbles). I would suggest that some are hanging on to the narrow score difference (not necessarily the same as a narrow defeat) in defence of Eddie without addressing the issues which exist and fail to be addressed.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
DoubleChampions (IP Logged)
15 June, 2018 12:15
Quote:
primavesi
Agree with Raggs, we have seen enough of the Ford/Farrell 10/12 combo to stick with it to the world cup.
This "cant play behind a struggling pack" cliche is a red herring anyway. All 10s look better if their pack is on top but Ford copes just as well as the rest when presented with slower ball.

On the one hand, people say he needs to pick on form, in other words dropping players who are not in form (as long as they are not Sarries players). They say he has his core group that he stays loyal to (who doesnt). On the other, people then complain that he has not picked a settled team and given combinations the time to gel. He canīt win.

As I said earlier in the week, our players are coming off the back of a long season, playing at altitude in a stadium where only New Zealand have won, yet still managed to play some good stuff and only narrowly lost. People reading way too much into it, just for the sake of some England/Eddie bashing.

The problem with Ford is defence - SA showed last week what we already knew that running at Ford will gain metres. Would SA have made as much ground running at Faz / Sexton even Loz? And for the record they would not make anywhere near as much running at Cips either.

Unfortunately, I think Ford is a luxury that is now in doubt and I would give Cips a chance - another luxury possibly but with more steel - who - also knows it is last chance saloon so has to step up.

As for the pack - I have no idea what EJ is thinking of - 15 months out and we are going backwards from the six nations - which takes some doing - our breakdown work last weekend was shocking and not improved from the six nations one bit.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
JO'G (IP Logged)
15 June, 2018 12:21
Quote:
RuggyBuggy
Quote:
Raggs
Eddie took a punt on playing Shields at lock, and it didn't backfire.

Didn't backfire is one thing but having the guy specifically brought in from abroad to address issues in the back row double jobbing in the second row is certainly questionable. Even if he can adequately fill a gap at lock (which remains to be seen), the gap in the back row remains. And why does this situation arise - because Eddie overlooked experienced locks in favour of less experienced guys he doesn't seem to trust. What was the point in bringing Isiekwe and Hill if between them amass a mere 30 mins of game time on this tour? Shields covering lock at the expense of back row (which he was brought in to play) is a symptom of wider selection issues.

Quote:
Ford is not the problem, and to swap him out would be to completely ignore where that game was won and lost.

I am not saying that Ford is the problem no more than you are saying that he is the solution to all England's problems. Giving someone else the jersey might get something extra out of Ford. Too many players are under preforming yet they appear untouchable. Ford is just one such example, same applies to Youngs, Brown and, until this week, Robshaw. Again the problems are wider than an individual player.

Just as a talking point - England have 4 decent locks, Launchbury, Itoje, kruis and Lawes. I'm assuming as Eddie probably is that this time next year 3 of those 4 will be available. If however, only 2 are available, then he is using this trip to look at 2 others who are younger / he hasn't looked at before. most of the older locks could have come (Atwood,.....) but EJ already has an opinion on them .I'm happy with him being a bit short of locks to be honest

The backs and the back-row are different entirely; bringing Earle for example when he could have brought Lewington or another winger who might actually be worth looking at seems a bit silly. same at back-row bringing Earles and leaving Gary Graham or Don Armand at home seems stupid

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
JO'G (IP Logged)
15 June, 2018 12:36
Quote:
Raggs
I'd also point out that people love to think that someone else is "defending" a coach, when they try and suggest the reasons behind the coaches thinking, agreeing with it or not. I tend to take the approach (as the discussion on the Wasps board shows) that a team of professional rugby coaches, in close contact with these players day in, day out, probably have some reasoning behind their selections, even if us amateurs disagree, they aren't simply idiots.

I have completely different views as a spectator than as a player. I remember that when training with a bunch of guys it was pretty obvious who 14 out of the 15 players should be. The only difference was my position where I thought I might be better than the bloke being picked - and if I was picked him, me. But to the rest of the squad, the person chosen was again obvious

I also noticed you defended Brad Barritt. I would point out that for most of his England games he was prepared to play out of position at 13 where his lack of pace would always expose him. In the few games he did play at 12 (when Tuilangi was fit) the performance of the England midfield was really good. It was always a pity that the rise of Joseph at 13 came too late for both Brad and Lancaster

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
#wolfpack (IP Logged)
15 June, 2018 13:24
Quote:
primavesi
As I said earlier in the week, our players are coming off the back of a long season, playing at altitude in a stadium where only New Zealand have won, yet still managed to play some good stuff and only narrowly lost. People reading way too much into it, just for the sake of some England/Eddie bashing.

It isn't losing that is frustrating.

I think it's the stubborn refusal to adapt when something doesn't go so well that is frustrating:

e.g.

1. We all know the players are tired. It cost us big in the 6N. It cost Sarries in Europe. Yet Mako, Maro, Daly, Jamie, Faz etc etc are all touring. Why?

2. There is increasing concern about the number of injuries picked up in EJ's training camps. This has been an issue discussed on these message boards for over a year, so it's not new. Has anything changed? Not obviously - Ben Teo, Joe Launchbury etc.

3. Squad selection - he has always picked slightly unusual squads (e.g. 'project players' - whatever they are). Why is Ben Earl on this tour? What a waste of time. Same with Denny Solomona and Nathan Earle. They will never make the world cup squad. Either we use this tour as pure player development, or we take it seriously. Similarly, where was the cover in the squad for Teo? The moment he got injured England were always going to play Ford-Farrell-Slade/Loz. There can be no variation, because he hasn't selected a squad that allows it.

4. No second row cover in the first test... none in the second.

5. Mike Brown on the wing in the first test... Mike Brown on the wing in the second.


I don't think anyone thinks England are rubbish and that Eddie Jones should be sacked. But there seems to be no flexibility or adaptability at all. He only wants it done one way, and at the moment that way isn't working.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
John Tee (IP Logged)
15 June, 2018 13:51
I can see an awful lot of pressure and questions coming his way if we don't post a successful tour.
2-1 and Ellis Park as mitigation might help him. 3-0 will not and should not, Imo.

If the post mortem/review of the tour is bad then I'd be sounding out Edwards...
In fact, a prudent management would have already done that to get his thinking.

The question isnt results it is will the players continue with him.
I don't trust Jones so some people who are in camp might be very close to giving him up....?
They are the issues going into the final year to the RWC.
Imo.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
15 June, 2018 14:59
Might I add a welcome to visitors, not least those from clubs whose Sportnetwork site hibernates during the close season.



£676.97 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2017.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
primavesi (IP Logged)
15 June, 2018 15:14
Quote:
#wolfpack
Quote:
primavesi
As I said earlier in the week, our players are coming off the back of a long season, playing at altitude in a stadium where only New Zealand have won, yet still managed to play some good stuff and only narrowly lost. People reading way too much into it, just for the sake of some England/Eddie bashing.

It isn't losing that is frustrating.

I think it's the stubborn refusal to adapt when something doesn't go so well that is frustrating:

e.g.

1. We all know the players are tired. It cost us big in the 6N. It cost Sarries in Europe. Yet Mako, Maro, Daly, Jamie, Faz etc etc are all touring. Why?

2. There is increasing concern about the number of injuries picked up in EJ's training camps. This has been an issue discussed on these message boards for over a year, so it's not new. Has anything changed? Not obviously - Ben Teo, Joe Launchbury etc.

3. Squad selection - he has always picked slightly unusual squads (e.g. 'project players' - whatever they are). Why is Ben Earl on this tour? What a waste of time. Same with Denny Solomona and Nathan Earle. They will never make the world cup squad. Either we use this tour as pure player development, or we take it seriously. Similarly, where was the cover in the squad for Teo? The moment he got injured England were always going to play Ford-Farrell-Slade/Loz. There can be no variation, because he hasn't selected a squad that allows it.

4. No second row cover in the first test... none in the second.

5. Mike Brown on the wing in the first test... Mike Brown on the wing in the second.


I don't think anyone thinks England are rubbish and that Eddie Jones should be sacked. But there seems to be no flexibility or adaptability at all. He only wants it done one way, and at the moment that way isn't working.

I agree with you on point 1 wholeheartedly. A year out form a world cup these guys should have been given the summer off. At least the lions test players. No really usre where the blame should lie for that.

Point 2 I think has been a bit overblown.

Regarding the rest, I have no problem with him using a series like this to experiment, give some players a taste of an internaitonal tour etc. I am sure Earle will gain a lot from being involved in some way. It might mean some quirky selections, and a few positions where we are short of cover, a few where players are out of position etc, but as long as the coaches are getting information from that, and we have to assume they are, then thats fine with me. In a world cup you can never predict what might happen. If there are key injuries and he is having to use untried options in the world cup people will be criticising him for not having tried these things before.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
Seany_Boy0511 (IP Logged)
15 June, 2018 16:54
Well I guess we see what happens tomorrow, I still believe that's a strong enough England squad to beat south Africa, if it doesn't work this week who's up for getting our under 20s boys out to SA for the final test? because that would baffle everyone! (Sm100)

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
Raggs (IP Logged)
15 June, 2018 19:15
Ewels has also been a constant feature with Eddie, and reminds me a good deal of Launchbury.

Hill and Isiekwe are potentially on tour to get a taste of international training, hopefully spurring them on to have superb seasons and force their way into contention for the RWC training camp. In addition, Eddie needs 4 locks in camp to run competitive training. The same will hold true for Earl and Earle. Promising players, that aren't there yet, but with the right motivation, may turn into something. They aren't there as test match contenders, they're there to train against. I suspect Eddie is trying to only play within his RWC pencilled in squad, so when he runs out of backrow (As in the 6n) he plays locks in the backrow, when he runs out of rwc squad locks, he plays backrow in the locks.

Farrell has more weight over Ford, so would likely give up fewer yards, but his tackle technique could easily get called up as high (especially with home town crowd), and he does plain miss tackles because of it, giving up more yards than Ford. It's a swings and roundabouts situation for me, and Ford I think is better at 10 when we have the ball. Farrell is also constantly improving at 12 (I'm always impressed with how he continues to improve, even if I wouldn't always have selected him).

The players looked far better playing for club rather than country, for country they looked knackered, which also fits in well with what Eddie's head of sports science said was the plan, to improve their fitness over the coming 18 months (it was before the 6N), with a focus of peaking at the rwc. Hard conditioning, that with a decent rest, would see much improved performances. Lancaster was trying to do the same, but clearly got the rest period wrong, and the forwards dropped too much weight, Lancaster was inexperienced (and then we fired him once he had it), and he brought in a non-rugby man for the fitness training. Eddie has experience, and his head of sports science has been around the block and then some (including Japan for 2015).

I'd love to see us win tomorrow, and considering how close it was last week, could see us doing so, but I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bathwater if we don't.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
John Tee (IP Logged)
15 June, 2018 20:06
He said he was going down there to win and so he must be judged on his ability to do so.
If he said it was all about gearing up for the rwc and developing players, then fine but he can't have it both ways.
If he is playing people out of position because he wants cover in the confines of his Squad choices then fine but if he is knackering players and expects them to recover during the season then you'll get breakdowns..
Maybe that is why he doesn't care....he knows he won't have his first choice anyway.
I thought Japan were very fit last time round but I'm not quite sure how they achieved it. How much of their regular season did they have to complete..

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
Highbury Saracen (IP Logged)
15 June, 2018 21:10
I just want him to play people in their correct positions as surely you will have a better chance of winning?
Iím afraid Eddie sets himself up for the grief he gets



European champions 2016 & 2017

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
Raggs (IP Logged)
16 June, 2018 05:45
Quote:
Highbury Saracen
I just want him to play people in their correct positions as surely you will have a better chance of winning?
Iím afraid Eddie sets himself up for the grief he gets

Is winning in South Africa more important to him than winning in Japan? I'm sure if Eddie's brief was to win only the next test match we'd see something different, but his brief was very much to target the rwc.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
John Tee (IP Logged)
16 June, 2018 09:35
Quote:
Raggs
Quote:
Highbury Saracen
I just want him to play people in their correct positions as surely you will have a better chance of winning?
Iím afraid Eddie sets himself up for the grief he gets

Is winning in South Africa more important to him than winning in Japan? I'm sure if Eddie's brief was to win only the next test match we'd see something different, but his brief was very much to target the rwc.

No, but he has said history could be made in SA and he has picked a squad to win it.

If he'd done all his Dev work at the same time as everyone else, he might have been in a position to be on track for both...rather than have to salvage a win because the wheels have come off.

I'm sure the playing schedule looked ok at the time... But I'd be interested to know what conditioners think about no rest between seasons.
Also, is it fair that the onus on resting players is down to the club's through these season...
Jones,seems to have alienated the club's and the fans...?? Judging by these boards, how long will the players stick with him too?

But, whichever way you skin it, we are lumbering from one game to another.... Hoping to pick up a win and
try and convince that all is well.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
BarnetSarrie (IP Logged)
16 June, 2018 14:01
Quote:
Highbury Saracen
I just want him to play people in their correct positions as surely you will have a better chance of winning?
Iím afraid Eddie sets himself up for the grief he gets

If there is a reason for someone playing out of position then fine! I have no problem with it - but there are always going to be downsides for both national and club sides with that - especially if they then go back to the club and have to readjust to playing in their normal berth - and then readjust again when they return to England. If they are equally good in both positions - or at least fit into the new position better than other potential candidates who normally play there, then fine as well. But I do doubt whether that can really be the case! Especially under high speed/pressure international circumstances. I don't understand what Brown really brings on the wing - sure he had a good twenty minutes and scored a strong try in the last SA game - but other wingers would have scored that try and not been exposed in later phases of the match. Owen at centre - as I have said - its a fudge and has meant Eddie hasnt found true centres to play there who hone their skill both in international matches and in the premiership. Owen is coping well there, but it means Ford staying at 10. I agree that in less pressured fixtures against less dominant forward packs, his skillset justifies his selection - but in games like South Africa or the ABs, he may as well have an arrow above his head with 'attack here and get through' on it. Eddie has had nearly three years to address the fundamental axis of half backs and centres - and he hasn't done so. It wasnt noticeable to start with, because our Forwards really were dominant - but it really is now.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
John Tee (IP Logged)
16 June, 2018 15:08
But the problem is you want Farrell in the team, but where?

Our centres have always been a compromise as long as Manu has been out, but I think our 10,12 should be a pick for the game in front of us rather than a default option that it is now. All the while Manu or that type of player isn't picked...for whatever reason, we will be stuck with our 10,12 and I don't think that is what you want against every opposition.

Quite happy with our 6,7 and 8 today..hope they go well and Billy has been building his fitness.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
delthedoor (IP Logged)
16 June, 2018 17:38
they didn't.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
Seany_Boy0511 (IP Logged)
16 June, 2018 17:40
Too much ill discipline... Needs sorting out fast otherwise we won't be getting out the group stages and will end up in 5th in the 6N again

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
Dave L (IP Logged)
16 June, 2018 17:40
Mindless indiscipline, loads of basic errors. Managed to beat ourselves. Same as last week with less points in the game.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
John Tee (IP Logged)
16 June, 2018 17:49
The Boks are building up to being a very good side and what has cost us is indiscipline.
If we could sort that, I think we could compete against that side. But ..... where is our improvement going to come from...
If Jones can't provide it, then he can't stay. Next week is crucial for him and its a dead rubber...

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
Dave L (IP Logged)
16 June, 2018 18:05
Quote:
John Tee
The Boks are building up to being a very good side and what has cost us is indiscipline.
If we could sort that, I think we could compete against that side. But ..... where is our improvement going to come from...
If Jones can't provide it, then he can't stay. Next week is crucial for him and its a dead rubber...

Jones isn't coaching the mindless indiscipline that Hughes and Mako amongst others showed is he? EJ is far from blameless but the players need to take some responsibility for that.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
DoubleChampions (IP Logged)
16 June, 2018 18:16
Quote:
John Tee
The Boks are building up to being a very good side and what has cost us is indiscipline.
If we could sort that, I think we could compete against that side. But ..... where is our improvement going to come from...
If Jones can't provide it, then he can't stay. Next week is crucial for him and its a dead rubber...

The indiscipline is a reaction to the pressure we are under. In both games after the first quarter we have had no forward momentum in both the pack and as a team.

I do not understand how Ford / Brown lasted until the 67th minute. Cips showed in 2 minutes how to get us on the front foot and is must starter for next week.

Slade was utterly anonymous again and EJ just sort the midfield out.

Also, Spencer might not be the best scrum half in the league BUT he knows Faz and gels and it is the team that needs to gel - I think Spencer/ Cips / Faz could drive England forward. Who to put at 13 though ......

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
Highbury Saracen (IP Logged)
16 June, 2018 18:24
Personally I would like Eddie to go after this test series his stuborness does him no favours
Bringing Cips & Loz in to start next week is a week too late!
Get rid whilst new guy has a year to build



European champions 2016 & 2017

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
John Tee (IP Logged)
16 June, 2018 18:37
I'd drop Youngs completely and have Spencer and Robson in the 23. This is as much to do with giving the others a look and not so much Youngs form as such. He was ok in the first half but fell apart when we went after the game. I think Spencer and Robson would offer more in a fractuous game that has been the hall mark of the second halves in particular.

Both Ford and Youngs need to know their place in the term, up to know , is not a given.

I didn't think Sickler coped very well all through the game.
Curry was good and well supported by Shields so the back row had better balance.
Put pressure on those Boks and we saw how fragile there could be... give them the front foot and they are a real handful.


Forwards for next week, same, and hope BV is fit.
Backs should be
Spencer, Cips, Farrell, Lowzoski/Slade, May, Daly, Brown. imo

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
westwaleswasp (IP Logged)
16 June, 2018 21:50
England fixtures...after LLLL*LL
Sa a

Sa
Nz
Jp
Au all H.

What happens they lose the next 3?
LLLL*LLLLL sounds like resignation or sacking territory, even allowing for one L being non cap.
Would love to know the opinions here.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
Darraghgirl (IP Logged)
16 June, 2018 22:30
Well possibly beat Japan!

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
John Tee (IP Logged)
17 June, 2018 12:32
I think the inability of our best players...by and large...are not performing for him so you need as many games as you can get to get the new guy embedded.
New guy at the top... and maybe a new coaching team depending on your view of their performance...or if we have one.!!

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
westwaleswasp (IP Logged)
18 June, 2018 00:50
Quote:
Darraghgirl
Well possibly beat Japan!

Which is why I stopped at 9 Ls. We are already at 6 including the non cap. SA, SA, NZ would make 9. At that point I think he might go.....

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
18 June, 2018 09:03
I have now watched the match again without the background noise of a pub. Faz's approach to Poite, was appalling, no attempt to achieve rapport; add to that the inability to stem the tide when the wheels are coming off, and I wonder whether he is captaincy material.



£676.97 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2017.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
18 June, 2018 09:05
Quote:
Highbury Saracen
Personally I would like Eddie to go after this test series his stuborness does him no favours
Bringing Cips & Loz in to start next week is a week too late!
Get rid whilst new guy has a year to build

Whom would you appoint in his place?



£676.97 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2017.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
JO'G (IP Logged)
18 June, 2018 09:10
not taking the points when on offer was a bit stupid

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
The Bard (IP Logged)
18 June, 2018 09:51
None of the ones turned down were easy kicks. I can fully understand why we went for the corner, as did South Africa every time they were in a similar position

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
BarnetSarrie (IP Logged)
18 June, 2018 10:41
Quote:
TonyTaff
Quote:
Highbury Saracen
Personally I would like Eddie to go after this test series his stuborness does him no favours
Bringing Cips & Loz in to start next week is a week too late!
Get rid whilst new guy has a year to build

Whom would you appoint in his place?

Well the obvious person is the person Saracens have said for YEARS was being groomed to be our future captain - Jamie George. I remember the powers that be whispering that in my ear even when he was just in the Academy. Then later when he became the player ambassador for the Foundation those whispers turned into nods. He would be a superb Captain. Owen is just too brusque - it's his manner. Even when he isn't frustrated or hyped up, he's like that. He doesn't mean to be rude - it's just how he is! As a Northerner myself, I don't really find it all that bothersome, but I can see there are those who do!!!

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
BarnetSarrie (IP Logged)
18 June, 2018 10:44
Quote:
The Bard
None of the ones turned down were easy kicks. I can fully understand why we went for the corner, as did South Africa every time they were in a similar position

I thought this too - and I also thought of what Sarries would do in that situation and they would also have gone for the Corner as we have frequently seen. The kicks were all from difficult positions. Remember - Owen is used to his forwards getting over the line!

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
DoubleChampions (IP Logged)
18 June, 2018 11:34
Well the obvious person is the person Saracens have said for YEARS was being groomed to be our future captain - Jamie George. I remember the powers that be whispering that in my ear even when he was just in the Academy. Then later when he became the player ambassador for the Foundation those whispers turned into nods. He would be a superb Captain. Owen is just too brusque - it's his manner. Even when he isn't frustrated or hyped up, he's like that. He doesn't mean to be rude - it's just how he is! As a Northerner myself, I don't really find it all that bothersome, but I can see there are those who do!!![/quote]

George currently does not even deserve to start! Unfortunately, in my opinion, George has failed to step up to starter in Hartleys absence. Not sure who can start in his place but making him captain is not the answer at the moment.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
Highbury Saracen (IP Logged)
18 June, 2018 11:49
Quote:
TonyTaff
I have now watched the match again without the background noise of a pub. Faz's approach to Poite, was appalling, no attempt to achieve rapport; add to that the inability to stem the tide when the wheels are coming off, and I wonder whether he is captaincy material.

Havent got a clue Tony!!
Stuart Lancaster?!! smiling smiley

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
John Tee (IP Logged)
18 June, 2018 13:19
I don't mind Farrell being captain for this series...longer term might be an issue depending what he learns and this tour is the right place for that Imv.

Im sure he'll remember the kicks...but the easiest thing to address must be the way you speak to the ref.
He is a bit flat in his tone so not easy for a second language to puck up nuance, but a bit of media coaching will sort that.
The more important issue is whether he can take a breath before speaking because he is probably more on the edge than is ideal.
People complain about Ben Youngs and his after match comment but these guys are wound up to care and really desire and commit..and then you want perfect rationality on a switch?
Having said that, if he can't deal with it, he won't stay captain.
He will still have useful leadership qualities on the pitch.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
Poking With Sticks (IP Logged)
18 June, 2018 13:19
Quote:
Highbury Saracen
Personally I would like Eddie to go after this test series his stuborness does him no favours
Bringing Cips & Loz in to start next week is a week too late!
Get rid whilst new guy has a year to build

Loz should thank his lucky stars he hasn't started. His stock rises every game he doesn't play on this tour!

Either way, we haven't lost games because of our 10 and 13, we've lost them due to inaccuracy, indiscipline and an inability to cope with the physicality of the Bok forwards.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
18 June, 2018 14:47
Quote:
Highbury Saracen
Quote:
TonyTaff
I have now watched the match again without the background noise of a pub. Faz's approach to Poite, was appalling, no attempt to achieve rapport; add to that the inability to stem the tide when the wheels are coming off, and I wonder whether he is captaincy material.

Havent got a clue Tony!!
Stuart Lancaster?!! smiling smiley

If I were making the decision, I would go for Smally.



£676.97 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2017.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
18 June, 2018 14:48
Quote:
Highbury Saracen
Quote:
TonyTaff
I have now watched the match again without the background noise of a pub. Faz's approach to Poite, was appalling, no attempt to achieve rapport; add to that the inability to stem the tide when the wheels are coming off, and I wonder whether he is captaincy material.

Havent got a clue Tony!!
Stuart Lancaster?!! smiling smiley

If I were making the decision, I would go for Smally.



£676.97 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2017.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
BarnetSarrie (IP Logged)
18 June, 2018 14:52
DONT EVEN SUGGEST THAT! ENOUGH. Go to a different club for once!

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
Highbury Saracen (IP Logged)
18 June, 2018 15:17
Has Deano been forgiven yet?



European champions 2016 & 2017

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
Roger G (IP Logged)
18 June, 2018 16:21
LIke I said on another thread - jobshare between Deano, Baxter and Young would be perfect.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
1876-Fez (IP Logged)
21 June, 2018 11:30
Team for
3rd test..

Starters
15 Elliot Daly (Wasps, 20 caps)
14 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers, 36 caps)
13 Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps)
12 Owen Farrell (Saracens, 60 caps) captain
11 Mike Brown (Harlequins, 71 caps)
10 Danny Cipriani (Wasps, 15 caps)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 76 caps)

1 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 58 caps)
2 Jamie George (Saracens, 27 caps)
3 Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins, 12 caps)
4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 53 caps)
5 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 21 caps)
6 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 65 caps)
7 Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 3 cap)
8 Nathan Hughes (Wasps, 16 caps)

Finishers
16 Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 7 caps)
17 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, 2 caps)
18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 10 caps)
19 Jonny Hill (Exeter Chiefs, 0 caps)
20 Mark Wilson (Newcastle Falcons, 3 caps)
21 Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs, 7 caps)
22 Ben Spencer (Saracens, 2 cap)
23 Denny Solomona (Sale Sharks, 4 caps)



SUPPORT Help for Heroes:
Help for Heroes

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
Highbury Saracen (IP Logged)
21 June, 2018 11:45
Hope Loz enjoyed his few weeks away!!!
Amazed he is not on bench



European champions 2016 & 2017

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
The Bard (IP Logged)
21 June, 2018 11:57
We were crying out for a 6-2 bench split in the first two games with so many unfit forwards. Would have put Loz on the bench for his versatility

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
boomer! (IP Logged)
21 June, 2018 12:30
It would be nice to see Ben Spencer come on in 55/60 mins when he has a chance to impress himself on the game rather than the 75 min when it is way too late to even break into a sweat.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
John Tee (IP Logged)
21 June, 2018 13:03
I'd have started with Robson and picked Spencer.. Or vice versa.
Seen enough of Youngs this tour and I thought Cips looked lively getting fed quickly by Spencer.
I don't think Slade has done enough to keep out lowzoski in a dead rubber.

 
Re: England Team - good grief!
JO'G (IP Logged)
21 June, 2018 13:04
I've thought that in both games, the England side went up a notch in speed and dominance when Ben was on the pitch. It may be entirely co-incidental that SA thought the game was under control and took their foot off the gas; or that he started to speed things up

at least he will be at home with the replacement forwards - as a Devon boy himself; those from the Exeter academy would have a similar accent

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