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Help with the laws
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
15 July, 2018 19:09
On the weekend, Brumbies had their hooker binned; the next set piece was a line-out. They were allowed to send their other hooker on as a temporary replacement.

This didn't used to be allowed. Has the law changed?

Ref was Angus Gardner, whom the (Australian) commentators described as one of the best!



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Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2017.

 
Re: Help with the laws
Sara'sman (IP Logged)
16 July, 2018 09:30
I don't recall any changes Tony - are you certain there was no scrum first? Additionally I think there is a moratorium on changes in the run up (18 months?) to World Cups. Not certain though!

Of course had it been an All Black hooker an "exceptional case" rule interpretation would have been in order.

 
Re: Help with the laws
Rupes (IP Logged)
16 July, 2018 10:02
And also from this Super Rugby weekend, anyone seen the red card given out in the Reds vs Sunwolves game? I'm starting to feel sorry for referees (in this case Ben O'Keefe) if that's what TMOs are now being told to advise.

Google it if you haven't seen it, try "Ed Quirk red card" or something like that - all thoughts welcome.

 
Re: Help with the laws
Maroon Tyke (IP Logged)
16 July, 2018 10:58
Quote:
Rupes
And also from this Super Rugby weekend, anyone seen the red card given out in the Reds vs Sunwolves game? I'm starting to feel sorry for referees (in this case Ben O'Keefe) if that's what TMOs are now being told to advise.
Google it if you haven't seen it, try "Ed Quirk red card" or something like that - all thoughts welcome.

Ridiculous! Video here

 
Re: Help with the laws
primavesi (IP Logged)
16 July, 2018 13:00
While this thread is going I have another question re the laws that someone might be able to help with.

Is any distinction made between a maul that forms as the result of a lineout and one that forms in open play (choke tackle)? They seem to be refereed completely differently. On the one hand if you get a maul going from a lineout its a great attacking platform, and any efforts to pull it down or come in from the side are normally penalised very quickly. But if it has formed from a choke tackle, the team without the ball seems to have impunity when it comes to pulling it down or incorrect entry, indeed often the commentators state that they need to try and bring it down.

 
Re: Help with the laws
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
16 July, 2018 13:05
Quote:
Maroon Tyke
Quote:
Rupes
And also from this Super Rugby weekend, anyone seen the red card given out in the Reds vs Sunwolves game? I'm starting to feel sorry for referees (in this case Ben O'Keefe) if that's what TMOs are now being told to advise.
Google it if you haven't seen it, try "Ed Quirk red card" or something like that - all thoughts welcome.

Ridiculous! Video here

In the second half, a Reds player does much worse and only got a yellow!

The Sunwolves captain was sanguine afterwards - rub of the green, it evens out..

Very diplomatic - they get treated harshly, even when there's no language barrier.



£676.97 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2017.

 
Re: Help with the laws
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
16 July, 2018 13:07
Quote:
Sara'sman
I don't recall any changes Tony - are you certain there was no scrum first? Additionally I think there is a moratorium on changes in the run up (18 months?) to World Cups. Not certain though!

Definitely no scrum in between. The substituted flanker left the line-out!



£676.97 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2017.

 
Re: Help with the laws
John Tee (IP Logged)
16 July, 2018 13:19
That red card.. ??
Watched it twice and couldn't see what he supposed to have done...

 
Re: Help with the laws
Sara'sman (IP Logged)
16 July, 2018 13:46
Quote:
primavesi
Is any distinction made between a maul that forms as the result of a lineout and one that forms in open play (choke tackle)? They seem to be refereed completely differently. On the one hand if you get a maul going from a lineout its a great attacking platform, and any efforts to pull it down or come in from the side are normally penalised very quickly. But if it has formed from a choke tackle, the team without the ball seems to have impunity when it comes to pulling it down or incorrect entry, indeed often the commentators state that they need to try and bring it down.

It is too long since I last refereed for me to be certain of the interpretations. I try to keep up to date by listening to the better commentators (Kay particularly, Healy generally good though I've known him to be wrong more than once) and listening to the referee's conversations whenever possible.

I think there is one difference in implementation of the Laws and one regarding the formation of mauls. The "two stoppages" calls seems unique to lineouts, presumably to allow the maul to be set. Because the post-lineout maul is more clearly and evenly "set" infringements are easier to spot, especially since the AR is close enough to patrol one side. In other mauls it is harder for referees to patrol both sides, there is often a less clear line between the teams, and the ball carrier is often being clamped by an opponent (backwards ball transfer is easier after lineouts); attempting to release him can often result in a collapse that could be (partly) due to the attacking team.

Incorrect entry should be punished more imo, as should diving onto a collapsed maul, but again is harder to spot due to the less structured non-lineout maul.

ETA - not sure I've been as clear as I'd like! The "two stoppages" is my difference in implementation. But otherwise here should be no difference in refereeing. However, the more structured formation of lineout mauls makes the transfer of the ball backwards easier and therefore offences clearer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 16/07/2018 14:06 by Sara'sman.

 
Re: Help with the laws
primavesi (IP Logged)
16 July, 2018 16:01
Thanks for that. The part about the ball being easier to transfer to the back of the maul does make sense, but I still always get the feeling that referees on a maul that has formed in open play are just waiting to give the turnover scrum, while for a lineout maul they are waiting to give a penalty to the attacking team.

Could easily just be my ignorance though.

 
Re: Help with the laws
Sara'sman (IP Logged)
16 July, 2018 17:11
I think that most mauls in open play that collapse without penalty do so when the carrier and ball are clamped. As such, with the structure less well set, the cause is less obviously one sided; the open maul stationary with the attacking side needing to use a ball that is hard to access, the carrier is wrestled to the ground by a combination of the actions of both sides.

The lineout maul is usually well set and going forwards when it is collapsed.

Perhaps it is simply that the open maul is far easier to defend because it is harder to set and transfer the ball backwards legally?

 
Re: Help with the laws
Rupes (IP Logged)
17 July, 2018 09:15
Looks like use of the TMO is being reviewed...

TMO Protocol "isn't working"

 
Re: Help with the laws
Sam Skennel (IP Logged)
17 July, 2018 09:24
They should revert to the original premise for the TMO where it was purely to help with in goal decisions relating to whether a try had been scored or not.

 
Re: Help with the laws
Squawker2 (IP Logged)
17 July, 2018 09:36
Quote:
Sam Skennel
They should revert to the original premise for the TMO where it was purely to help with in goal decisions relating to whether a try had been scored or not.

You forgot the secret bonus use - checking whether a drop goal had been scored!



-----------------------------------------------------

Stuart Barnes is a Cock Womble

 
Re: Help with the laws
Rupes (IP Logged)
17 July, 2018 13:32
And this is the rub. The TMO role was also to look out for clear acts of foul play - which I don't think anyone disagrees with. The issue comes with "what is foul play"? In the case above, then I'm not sure that's an act of foul play. So is it the redefining of foul play which is needed? Or are World Rugby going to accept that there may be some incidents which are missed by reducing the role of the TMO?

Don't forget, World Rugby are looking to make the game as "clean" as possible so therefore don't want potential incidents missed.

Tricky one to solve. If nothing is done though, you'll end up with 11 a side in a Gallagher Premiership match this season, on what I've seen in Super Rugby.

 
Re: Help with the laws
Seany_Boy0511 (IP Logged)
17 July, 2018 15:02
Not sure it warrants a red card, but the interpretation was s closed fist to the face, so in that case by the letter of the law it is a red card... It didn't look like a closed fist in my opinion

 
Re: Help with the laws
JO'G (IP Logged)
19 July, 2018 17:04
Quote:
primavesi
While this thread is going I have another question re the laws that someone might be able to help with.
Is any distinction made between a maul that forms as the result of a lineout and one that forms in open play (choke tackle)? They seem to be refereed completely differently. On the one hand if you get a maul going from a lineout its a great attacking platform, and any efforts to pull it down or come in from the side are normally penalised very quickly. But if it has formed from a choke tackle, the team without the ball seems to have impunity when it comes to pulling it down or incorrect entry, indeed often the commentators state that they need to try and bring it down.

agree - one of my biggest gripes; especially since the eventual scrum will take place from where the ball ends up. If the defending side could not bring down the maul and the attacking side pushed them back 20/30 metres I would be surprised if it was continued with as a defending tactic

 
Re: Help with the laws
King Zak (IP Logged)
22 July, 2018 21:25
The problem with refereeing the ‘choke tackle’ seems to be that, almost by defenition, the ball is trapped and the tackled player is trying to go to ground to make it a tackle. Thus, when the referee calls, “maul”, the defenders just have to let him drop - generally with some help!



Nous sommes l'armée noir et rouge !

 
Re: Help with the laws
JO'G (IP Logged)
23 July, 2018 12:44
Quote:
King Zak
The problem with refereeing the ‘choke tackle’ seems to be that, almost by defenition, the ball is trapped and the tackled player is trying to go to ground to make it a tackle. Thus, when the referee calls, “maul”, the defenders just have to let him drop - generally with some help!

however, as soon as the word maul become said - the man with ball wants to stay up and move forward as this is his only option

1) if the shove stays on, the scrum ends up 5/10 yards towards the chokers line
2) if the shove gets momentum, the ref sometimes looks more kindly when the ball finally goes to ground often checking to see if its available - which it often is - and calling it available

I just think that if the side who would lose out keeps the maul on the move then in general the ref keeps play going and would look more favourably at the possibility of collapse. especially if the comments by players backed this up. Scrum half calling on the forwards to keep driving and not let it collapse for example

 
Re: Help with the laws
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
24 July, 2018 12:41
Quote:
Rupes
Looks like use of the TMO is being reviewed...
TMO Protocol "isn't working"

Glenda has, in my opinion, been having a poor run recently.

We've just had the two Glenda -Newman being in front of the screen:

GJ: "The decision on the field is 'no try'. Can you check?"
GN: "Nothing clear and obvious. You may award the try."

The TMO was right, and the ref initially wrong. But the TMO didn't follow the protocol, and the ref didn't question being overruled without explanation. I almost choked on my shredded wheat!



£676.97 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2017.


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