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What's going on with Tigers?
BarnetSarrie (IP Logged)
01 October, 2018 11:00
I watched the game yesterday.
Honestly I wished I hadn't. It was a terrible game.
I don't understand what is going on - on paper they have good players! I know they are in transition and it must be very complicated, but genuinely, I was shocked.

But credit to their fans - they are real fans, still turning up in large numbers to support their team despite what is going on on the pitch (and probably in the changing room/training ground by the look of that!) Meanwhile our attendances are down, thanks to the debacle of ST pricing. Did they even announce the attendance on Saturday?
I really hope things improve, for the sake of their ticket holders! They deserve better!

 
Re: What's going on with Tigers?
beshocked (IP Logged)
01 October, 2018 11:19
Tigers have been on a gradual decline in the last few years.


Poor recruitment, failing academy. Not recruiting a coach who can turn around their fortunes.

On paper their team is not what they used to be.

Their pack is a shadow of itself. There's been no replacement for Johnson and Kay in the 2nd row for years.

In comparison Sarries have an embarrassment of riches in the 2nd row.


Sarries haven't been able to find a flanker as talented as Richard Hill but haven't needed to when pretty much every other position is much stronger than when Hill was around.


It's the same in the backrow - Leicester just haven't sorted it out.

Only in certain positions like 3,9,10 can Leicester compete with the best in the country.

Manu is injured too much these days.



We know that the foundation is lain down by the forwards - Leicester's forwards are no longer the tigers they used to be.


Tigers also have a lightweight backline with the likes of Eastmond,Ford and May.

 
Re: What's going on with Tigers?
SarrieSaint (IP Logged)
01 October, 2018 14:20
BarnetSarrie official gate was 18K people there suggest it was more like 16K against almost 26K for a sold-out game. Even given that it was a Sunday fixture I'm not sure they get credit for turning up in large numbers? The worrying thing is quite a few grounds even have shown a decline in home support since the start of the season. I guess many on here put Saracens down to the price ticket hikes but maybe it's a more general trend? I hope not.

Can Leicester compete with the best in the country in any position beshocked? Maybe May on the wing? Veianu at his very best at fullback? Tigers played their best rugby last season with Harrison and Toomua as half-backs but much the same pack. Cole hasn't come back in the rip-roaring from many had hoped the break and proper pre-season would have given him. I agree that it starts up front and that Tigers have suffered because of a three to four-year window in which they couldn't decide how they wanted to play and ended up with a team not really suited to playing a loose game or a tight one.

 
Re: What's going on with Tigers?
beshocked (IP Logged)
01 October, 2018 15:17
Quote:
SarrieSaint
BarnetSarrie official gate was 18K people there suggest it was more like 16K against almost 26K for a sold-out game. Even given that it was a Sunday fixture I'm not sure they get credit for turning up in large numbers? The worrying thing is quite a few grounds even have shown a decline in home support since the start of the season. I guess many on here put Saracens down to the price ticket hikes but maybe it's a more general trend? I hope not.
Can Leicester compete with the best in the country in any position beshocked? Maybe May on the wing? Veianu at his very best at fullback? Tigers played their best rugby last season with Harrison and Toomua as half-backs but much the same pack. Cole hasn't come back in the rip-roaring from many had hoped the break and proper pre-season would have given him. I agree that it starts up front and that Tigers have suffered because of a three to four-year window in which they couldn't decide how they wanted to play and ended up with a team not really suited to playing a loose game or a tight one.


You are right about May and Veianu on their day but then again wing is quite a strong position for a lot of teams.

I think ideally you want forwards who can do both but of course you have to start with one and work on the other.

Sarries have big powerful forwards but they are also skillful.

I feel that a lot of the packs in the AP are underpowered which is why they can't match Exeter and Saracens.

 
Re: What's going on with Tigers?
SarrieSaint (IP Logged)
01 October, 2018 16:15
Huge credit to Peel and team for sorting things in regard of the scrum and maul. Can't help feel that having Kruis back as well as a fit Skelton (just remember to push not pull Will!) is having a big impact. The acid test will be when the International windows deprive the team of a fair few of those. As you say though the power that both sides mentioned have in the pack and multi-phase carrying is a real strength.

 
Re: What's going on with Tigers?
sarricen (IP Logged)
01 October, 2018 17:16
Wing must be the most loaded position in the premiership. I can't think of a single team where I wouldn't look at at least one or two of their wingers and think 'I wouldn't mind him playing for Sarries'. Leicester's are no better or worse than most other teams.

 
Re: What's going on with Tigers?
Adey (IP Logged)
02 October, 2018 08:02
“Sarries haven’t been able to find a flanker as talented as Richard Hill.”

No team could ever find a player like HRHRH. One of a kind.

 
Re: What's going on with Tigers?
SarrieSaint (IP Logged)
02 October, 2018 10:57
Quote:
Adey
No team could ever find a player like HRHRH. One of a kind.

For his time you mean?

 
Re: What's going on with Tigers?
Innings (IP Logged)
02 October, 2018 12:06
Is it possible to judge anyone by any time other than his own?

All one can say is that HRHRH was arguably the most influential back row forward in world rugby for a decade, and perhaps overall the most influential player in any position for most of the time of his international career.

However, it is also arguable that at 1.88 metres and 108 Kg he would have been perfectly capable of being as successful today as he was then. Size would no problem, and he would have been professional enough to be fit enough. Anyone who saw his play, on one good leg and one crocked pin, when he completely wrapped up the great RL player Leslie Vainikolo to the extent that LV was subbed after about 20 minutes, would say that his rugby brain was perfectly up to modern demands.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
Re: What's going on with Tigers?
SarrieSaint (IP Logged)
02 October, 2018 12:27
Quote:
Innings
Is it possible to judge anyone by any time other than his own?
All one can say is that HRHRH was arguably the most influential back-row forward in world rugby for a decade, and perhaps overall the most influential player in any position for most of the time of his international career.

However, it is also arguable that at 1.88 metres and 108 Kg he would have been perfectly capable of being as successful today as he was then. Size would no problem, and he would have been professional enough to be fit enough

That's why I asked as it's an interesting question to me. Especially in the context of the sort of "best ever" teams lists that come up every once in a while. Few players stand the test of time if you were to drop them into the modern game assuming the same levels of fitness and skill as at their peak and playing to current Laws.

I wasn't supporting Saracens when he was with you but was a massive fan of him as an England player but as an example you say he would be perfectly capable of fitting in today and size would be no problem. Well he'd be small and lightish for a modern back-row player. Kind of Neil Back size then in comparison to many of todays players. Not impossible by any stretch of the imagination but worth noting. I think we take for granted both the physicality and skill of many of our modern players in comparison to more vintage ones.

 
Re: What's going on with Tigers?
Innings (IP Logged)
03 October, 2018 13:17
HRHRH was perfectly as capable of the physical stuff as any player playing today. His skills were so far ahead of his time that he'd need little beyond learning the new nuances.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
Re: What's going on with Tigers?
Stopsy (IP Logged)
04 October, 2018 02:22
Hi- we have been in decline for some years now, the failed experiment with Cockers and Mauger was certainly not helped by reverting to O’Connor. There doesn’t seem to be a defensive plan an too many isolated ball carriers. The academy is producing again and I am delighted to see them getting chances. Hopefully Murphy will be given time and will be able to turn it around.

 
Re: What's going on with Tigers?
BarnetSarrie (IP Logged)
04 October, 2018 17:11
I hope so too Stopsy.
At least with Geordhan there is a degree of continuity and I am sure he has the respect of the players. My reading of Tigers supporters is that they are a sensible lot who understand the need for patience. I don't think there will be the calls for heads to roll if results don't suddenly boomerang back to success as long as you can see progress. There may be an understandable expectation of winning, because of Tigs illustrious history - but I do think there is also a sense of realism. Bringing Academy talent through takes time, but it will yield results - and loyalty.

Your match this weekend shows what Tigers are really all about in helping to support a player from another club. I hope it is a massive success and a great game!

 
Re: What's going on with Tigers?
Stopsy (IP Logged)
05 October, 2018 05:11
If you look at our Europe squad there is a high number of academy products in there. I think our problems are actually above Geordan and may even go to the Chairman who has done amazing things for the club over many years. The multiple coaches recently must be their accountability.

Pretty awesome start to the season for you lot.

 
Re: What's going on with Tigers?
BarnetSarrie (IP Logged)
05 October, 2018 10:13
It has been - but it comes to something when even with five pointers every week, we are all still tutting and saying that we havent put in a complete performance yet! Not just fans, but the coaches and players themselves too!

I think those of us who have been around for a long time and remember the 'plucky losers' and 'underachievers' tags are still pinching ourselves. Its a good thing because even now, we never take it for granted. Hope that never changes. It's part of how you keep improving.

 
Re: What's going on with Tigers?
Sara'sman (IP Logged)
05 October, 2018 10:34
For me a large part is culture. The club, board/coaches/players/fans, have failed collectively to move with the times. Understandable in some ways since it was very successful over a long period, it is a culture of raw aggression, beating up (literally) anyone who stood in their way, shown perfectly by two oft repeated facets, the Monday training ground fights and the separate changing rooms for senior players in the team.

The club hoovered up certain types of player from the Premiership and Islands. Gnarled, grisly forwards who enjoyed this culture and a few large physical backs who could run through weaker opponents. Success, enhanced England prospects and the club's loyalty to its injured, bred success. Players were happy to be part of a large, successful squad for a little less than they might earn elsewhere, As professionalism progressed, foul play was increasingly punished, more top class players became available, and a more athletic type of forward emerged.

But Tigers stuck to their formula. Some bad luck with injuries (in part perhaps, a by-product of their culture and a small muddy pitch dictating a relentlessly physical style), Mauger's too hasty, unbalanced and unwelcomed by fans, attempt to address this issue, the loyal Cockers' failure to evolve his style, led to them falling behind. Even now, there is an attempt to resurrect the old culture with ridiculous pre-breakfast boxing sessions for the forwards, amazingly, to me, warmly welcomed by their fans. Compare this to our own training - serious, intense, structured, but something that player after player has said they actively look forward to. With a creche, warm welcome to players families, humour, and strong support (insistence) for players post rugby development. Can anyone imagine Leicester having philosophy sessions led by an outside expert?

For years Tom Croft hid Tom Young's poor throwing; having such an athletic third presence made his job so much simpler (something George benefits from with Itoje/Isiekwe/Kruis and Wray/Rhodes). Manu's destructive running was the last in a long line of individuals whose physicality hid weak skills in the backs. Perhaps the culture contributed to injuries and key players thinking "enough" - Parling's concussion, Slater's knee (yes I know about England), Croft's neck (Cockers - "he must learn to tackle properly") Crane's demise. The once excellent open field Kitchener was turned into another (poor) grunt who has never developed the talent so obvious at Worcester.

 
Re: What's going on with Tigers?
Stopsy (IP Logged)
05 October, 2018 11:10
I think the Cockerill comment re Croft is being mis-represented above, that apart, much sense. Cockerill has shown that he can still coach, he had just got stale at Leicester. Where we lack in comparison to your good selves (OK there are many areas!) is the size and quality of the coaching and back up team.

How much of this was DoR choice I do not know.

 
Re: What's going on with Tigers?
tigerburnie (IP Logged)
06 October, 2018 18:53
We will get there ……………...slowly, the scrum is coming back to where it was and we have a better backline than we have had for a long time and plenty of rising youngsters too. Won't happen over night, but as Stopsy alluded too, how we fix the broken boardroom I don't know.

 
Re: What's going on with Tigers?
nedrichards (IP Logged)
06 October, 2018 19:55
I'll try and dig out the article but I remember seeing an analysis of where professional players in England went to their academy (e.g. who's producing, even if they don't come through at the same club). Sarries were top but Leicester were very high, even though very few actually played at Welford Road (other than away).

 
Re: What's going on with Tigers?
cwrich (IP Logged)
06 October, 2018 21:19
Yeah. I think there is little doubt by anyway that we n the hands of today’s caching training conditioning teams Hrhrh would have been even more of a physical specimen than he was anyway. He was so far ahead of his time technically that it’s impossibly to believe that he wouldn’t be now

 
Re: What's going on with Tigers?
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
07 October, 2018 15:00
I saw signs of improvement in Tiggs at HQ.



£676.97 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2017.

 
Re: What's going on with Tigers?
JO'G (IP Logged)
07 October, 2018 16:54
The scrum was like the diggers of yore


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