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Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
23 October, 2018 18:20
What a bunch of clowns. Talk about making it up as you go along. This kind of nonsense brings the game into disrepute and is laughable in its sheer unadulterated incompetence. The gist of it is that his ban now ends on 5th November instead of the week before because they have decided that we would not have selected him for the PRC match(es). That's our business and not theirs. Clowns. Absolute clowns.

<< Clown town >>

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
Darraghgirl (IP Logged)
23 October, 2018 18:27
you couldn't make it up could you!

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
Innings (IP Logged)
23 October, 2018 19:04
The club should appeal on principle. The disciplinary process is arbitrary, inconsistent and at times oblivious to the fact that this is affecting peoples' livelihoods. I'm not arguing whether the ban should have been one or ten weeks, but that the only way to change the decision should be by a proper process of appeal by the citing officer, not a random idea made up as they went along.



Innings

Points win matches: tries win hearts and minds.

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
The Bard (IP Logged)
23 October, 2018 19:21
Based on their summary of the Hughes case I did wonder whether this would happen. The ‘rules’ must have changed as players have had bans through the summer when they wouldn’t have been playing. If the hearing had been before the England squad announcement would they have picked him?

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
kakshaks (IP Logged)
23 October, 2018 19:34
So does Hughes now miss more weeks too? Loz was 2 weeks but as EPCR decided he wasn’t going to play this weekend make it 3 weeks. By the same rules, Hughes 6 weeks increases to 9?

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
Highbury Saracen (IP Logged)
23 October, 2018 20:33
Different citing committees so no wouldnt think so



European champions 2016 & 2017

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
Sarriebone (IP Logged)
23 October, 2018 20:42
Surely if the ban is for 2 weeks regardless of matches. If the ban is 2 matches then I can kind of see the justification, but it's not.

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
SFY (IP Logged)
23 October, 2018 20:57
So what happens if Sarries name him in the team for the PRC game, he was banned for two matches which seem to have arbitrarily decided by EPRC to be Lyon and the SA/Sale game.
If Sarries name him in the PRC squad for Leicester and show an intention of playing him then surely EPRC will have to backtrack and accept it as a game he would play if it is appealed.

Not beyond belief that England would have released him under different circumstances eg get some club time after not playing for three weeks through injury (not a ban).

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
Neville (IP Logged)
23 October, 2018 21:30
Alsolutely ridiculous!

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
derbyshire fan (IP Logged)
23 October, 2018 22:07
I liked the suggestion on Facebook that we should name him captain for the Tigers game on Saturday

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
abudhabidoo (IP Logged)
23 October, 2018 22:47
So, if EPCR give Cips a five week ban and take into consideration he would not be involved in the PC or Autumn Internationals, he will next be available on the 28th December? Seems a tad excessive...

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
LutonS (IP Logged)
24 October, 2018 06:36
So what happens now if a banned player gets injured in training? Would say a four week ban become a 12 week ban to account for 8 weeks out with an injury?

Totally ridiculous!

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
maynas (IP Logged)
24 October, 2018 07:35
As its written up today his ban was for 2 matches and he would have missed the Leicester game as he would be in England training camp which is more reasonable. Frankly the less games our players play for England the better!

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
4everhopePhil (IP Logged)
24 October, 2018 08:01
The farce continues

The link to the 'fish' now seems to have (temporarily?) disabled text

Write up available here
rugbypass

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
Waldo (IP Logged)
24 October, 2018 09:44
Quote from the article :-

It was therefore decided that Lozowski’s two-week period of suspension should take in Saracens’ Heineken Champions Cup, Round 2 match against Lyon, Saracens’ Premiership Cup match against Sale Sharks on Friday, 2 November and/or England’s international match against South Africa on Saturday, 3 November.

So technically he is free to play this weekend right ? Because they haven't deemed this weekends game valid for suspension .

So we should play him - just to show how farcical it is !

Also if we don't play him this weekend and play him against Sale technically he would qualify to play the England game the following day on 3rd Nov as he has served a 2 match ban.( not that in practice he would play on a Friday and a Saturday)but ECPR have stated he is not free to play until Nov 5th !

It just makes no sense .

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
SarrieSaint (IP Logged)
24 October, 2018 10:33
We should Waldo but I believe he's in Portugal with the England squad?

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
Waldo (IP Logged)
24 October, 2018 11:11
Quote:
SarrieSaint
We should Waldo but I believe he's in Portugal with the England squad?

He is but ......

"The England Team Manager, Richard Hill, informed the Committee that Lozowski would be made available for selection for the Premiership Cup match"

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
24 October, 2018 12:25
"It was decided..." Shame on Rugbypass. They should name those who decided.

The use of the passive voice is a device often used to obscure who is responsible for a stupid decision. When I was working in the City, I would ridicule those who used the device - it led, ultimately, to better decision-making, as well as exposing those fellow executives who were incapable of making quality decisions. Didn't make me friends, tho!

Anyhoo, the club has taken down their article - I feel an appeal in the offing.



£676.97 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2017.

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
Waldo (IP Logged)
24 October, 2018 13:14
Quote:
TonyTaff

Anyhoo, the club has taken down their article - I feel an appeal in the offing.

Would the club bother appealing though ? (unless under direction of the RFU !) even considering the new ban it effects England more than us .

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
Jim 55 (IP Logged)
24 October, 2018 13:41
Quote:
Waldo
Quote:
TonyTaff

Anyhoo, the club has taken down their article - I feel an appeal in the offing.

Would the club bother appealing though ? (unless under direction of the RFU !) even considering the new ban it effects England more than us .

And Loz of course!

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
4everhopePhil (IP Logged)
24 October, 2018 13:51
Article now re-emerged on the 'fish'

here

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
beshocked (IP Logged)
24 October, 2018 14:38
2 weeks is 2 weeks. 2 matches is 2 matches.

The club should appeal.

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
Waldo (IP Logged)
24 October, 2018 14:52
Quote:
Jim 55
Quote:
Waldo
Quote:
TonyTaff

Anyhoo, the club has taken down their article - I feel an appeal in the offing.

Would the club bother appealing though ? (unless under direction of the RFU !) even considering the new ban it effects England more than us .

And Loz of course!

Correct Jim

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
24 October, 2018 19:55
The RFU's Richard Hill (which one?) said Loz would have been released for the Development Cup game but person(s) unknown 'administratively' reviewed the sanction and didn't believe the RFU!

You couldn't make it up!



£676.97 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2017.

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
PhillFez (IP Logged)
24 October, 2018 20:32
Cipriani ban

Three weeks including games he wasn't expected to play in

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
Harrow Sarrie (IP Logged)
24 October, 2018 21:52
If the situation with Loz wasn't a farce before it certainly is now...

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
Waldo (IP Logged)
25 October, 2018 05:16
Quote:
TonyTaff
The RFU's Richard Hill (which one?) said Loz would have been released for the Development Cup game but person(s) unknown 'administratively' reviewed the sanction and didn't believe the RFU!
You couldn't make it up!

That would be HRHRH - he is England Team Manager

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
AP (IP Logged)
25 October, 2018 07:47
For some time, the disciplinary tribunals have faced the problem that "weeks" doesn't always equate to "matches". I think it came to the fore a few years ago when someone merited (say) a 13 week ban at a hearing in May. Apart from a few friendlies, he wasn't going to miss any matches. I think the tribunal increased his suspension to address that (either expressly or by saying that in the circumstances mitigation was inappropriate).

More recently, we've seen them talking about "meaningful matches" and identifying the ones that as a consequence will be missed.I recall that a suspension given over the summer (Chris Ashton?) was adjusted when his club was rumoured to be arranging an extra friendly against lower league opposition.

In most cases, the tribunal states a date from which the player will become free to play again. Whether that's conclusive if there are actually more games for which he might be available by then than specified in the punishment, I don't know, but it would be a brave club that assumes it can play him early.

There needs to be more consistency in any event. Loz might well have been released to us and we'd certainly need him!



Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
Barty II (IP Logged)
25 October, 2018 09:10
The appeals!

The comedy circle continues!

Loz filing an appeal against both the initial sanction, and the extension

EPRC filing an appeal against the dismissing of the tackle-on-Jackson citing.

Given how it's been handled so far, I fully expect the current ban to be lifted completely, and for him to then be given a four week ban for the dangerous tackle instead.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 25/10/2018 09:11 by Barty II.

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
Highbury Saracen (IP Logged)
25 October, 2018 09:20
Has Eddie asked us to do this so he can play against South Africa?



European champions 2016 & 2017

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
london pride (IP Logged)
25 October, 2018 09:24
It's all a farce, as someone else has said 'Two weeks is two weeks, two matches is two matches.' For me personally though, what is more worrying,how can players,management and supporters alike have any faith in a system like this.A highly professional sport run by a bunch of floundering amateurs in an old boys club.

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
Waldo (IP Logged)
25 October, 2018 09:35
Is this the EPCR acting like a spoilt child !

How dare you question us !

We are now going to counter appeal.

So there !!!!!

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
AP (IP Logged)
25 October, 2018 09:42
The appeal panel:

Rod McKenzie - Scottish solicitor, legal adviser to the Scottish Premier League and a member of the Judicial Panel of the Scottish Rugby Union.

Simon Thomas - I can't identify him

Philippe Cavalieros - French lawyer, acts for EPCR (and a partner at my old firm!)



Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
25 October, 2018 09:50
Is anyone genuinely surprised by this?

I would fully support Saracens wading in with some heavyweight lawyers to squash this nonsense right now. I fully support the principle that players can and should be held accountable for their actions. However the mechanism by which this is exercised has continued to plummet to new depths of ineptitude. We would be doing everyone a favour by laying down a line in the sand and telling the rugby authorities enough is enough. They need to get it sorted asap. All quasi judicial bodies are inherently subjective but the inconsistency of nearly all these judgements and the subsequent sanctions they hand out is breathtaking. There needs to be a central body with sitting officials for a period of time who officiate these boards as a first step at the very minimum.

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
Waldo (IP Logged)
25 October, 2018 10:24
Quote:
AP
The appeal panel:
Rod McKenzie - Scottish solicitor, legal adviser to the Scottish Premier League and a member of the Judicial Panel of the Scottish Rugby Union.

Simon Thomas - I can't identify him

Philippe Cavalieros - French lawyer, acts for EPCR (and a partner at my old firm!)

Forgive my ignorance on legal matters but isn't the panel supposed to be independent ?

How can Monsieur Cavalieros be on the panel if he acts for the EPCR ?

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
samlee99 (IP Logged)
25 October, 2018 10:29
Quote:
Waldo
Is this the EPCR acting like a spoilt child !
How dare you question us !

We are now going to counter appeal.

So there !!!!!

Is this Saracens acting like a spoilt child !

How dare you question our player !

We are now going to appeal against the sentence.

So there !!!!!


Isn't hypocrisy wonderful?

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
Waldo (IP Logged)
25 October, 2018 10:49
Why is that being Hypocritical?

The way it's being portrayed is we appealed and then EPCR counter appealed against the other offense.

Which strikes me as childish !

Just my opinion .

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
shendy (IP Logged)
25 October, 2018 11:40
Quote:
LutonS
So what happens now if a banned player gets injured in training? Would say a four week ban become a 12 week ban to account for 8 weeks out with an injury?
Totally ridiculous!

I'm pretty sure this has happened, a few years ago now - I think it was in the Prem. Someone injured themselves in the same game as they also did something bannable (can't remember if it was a red card or a citing), and the ban was timed to start at the point he was expected to return from injury.

Perhaps if they started referring to "meaningful weeks" then there wouldn't be this debate - or maybe a little less of it...

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
25 October, 2018 12:19
Quote:
Waldo
Quote:
TonyTaff
The RFU's Richard Hill (which one?) said Loz would have been released for the Development Cup game but person(s) unknown 'administratively' reviewed the sanction and didn't believe the RFU!
You couldn't make it up!

That would be HRHRH - he is England Team Manager

Ah, well, good on Hilda.

I can understand why the panel were sceptical!



£676.97 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2017.

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
MyCupRunnethOver (IP Logged)
25 October, 2018 13:07
What a dogs dinner

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
Roger G (IP Logged)
25 October, 2018 16:00
Quote:
GazzaFez
I would fully support Saracens wading in with some heavyweight lawyers to squash this nonsense right now....

That might work if the hearing was in a court of law, however it would just be a huge waste of money in this case.

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
PhillFez (IP Logged)
25 October, 2018 20:53
What other court would prevent evidence from being heard? Disgrace

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
LutonS (IP Logged)
26 October, 2018 06:56
Quote:
Roger G
Quote:
GazzaFez
I would fully support Saracens wading in with some heavyweight lawyers to squash this nonsense right now....

That might work if the hearing was in a court of law, however it would just be a huge waste of money in this case.

As the extended ban will cost Loz a potential England match fee rumored to be around £25,000, would this not be considered restraint of trade?

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
Roger G (IP Logged)
26 October, 2018 07:20
Quote:
LutonS
As the extended ban will cost Loz a potential England match fee rumored to be around £25,000, would this not be considered restraint of trade?

Possibly, but I wouldn't be surprised if his RFU registration included acceptance of disciplinary procedures and decisions as a condition, although I don't know that for sure.

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
26 October, 2018 07:52
Quote:
Roger G
Quote:
GazzaFez
I would fully support Saracens wading in with some heavyweight lawyers to squash this nonsense right now....

That might work if the hearing was in a court of law, however it would just be a huge waste of money in this case.

Roger that's precisely what I meant....... Taking EPCR to court although I refute the the idea that taking some firepower to the hearing itself would be a 'huge' waste of money.

The problem is that without some firm action now we or someone else will be in the same or a similar situation in a matter of weeks; I absolutely guarantee it.

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
AP (IP Logged)
26 October, 2018 07:53
Quote:
PhillFez
What other court would prevent evidence from being heard? Disgrace

I'm curious - what evidence is not being heard?

Thanks



Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
derbyshire fan (IP Logged)
26 October, 2018 10:52
In most courts it is rare for an appeal to hear new evidence, unless there is some very compelling reason why that evidence could not have been produced at the original hearing

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
AnneGran (IP Logged)
26 October, 2018 14:00
When is this appeal? I can't wait to see how it works out! I'm a one eyed Saracen fan and proud of it.

Stand up for the Saracens.
Fly the flag.

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
derbyshire fan (IP Logged)
26 October, 2018 14:11
The appeal is tonight (Friday) - so hopefully we will hear the outcome before bedtime tonight

 
Re: Lozowski's ban "extended" !!!!!!
PhillFez (IP Logged)
26 October, 2018 17:46
Quote:
AP
Mitigating evidence is not admisible if the defendant pleads guilty so no chance of mitigation.

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