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Poll: That tackle by Faz
BACK TO BLACK (IP Logged)
03 November, 2018 18:52

Penalty, yes, no?

Perfect tackle, arms wrapped - ish
Ref's a homer and bottled it
The citing official will have something to say
Does not matter the MiB for England were EPIC

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110 Votes

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My heart was in my throat or pants if I'm honest. So, was that the right decision impartial ones?

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
The Bard (IP Logged)
03 November, 2018 19:23
Any other minute of the game, or in South Africa then I suspect it’s a penalty

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
John Tee (IP Logged)
03 November, 2018 20:52
The problem is that that in one game it is nothing, the other is red...??

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
PhillFez (IP Logged)
03 November, 2018 21:03
The choice should be valid tackle not perfect but it was certainly legal.

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
sarricen (IP Logged)
03 November, 2018 21:05
I know facts and the actual law aren’t normally popular in these sort of things but:

Law 10.4 (g) Dangerous charging.
A player must not charge or knock down an opponent carrying the ball without trying to grasp that player.
Sanction: Penalty kick

It’s also law 9 - 16

Key word is ‘trying’. It is only a shoulder charge if there is no attempt to grasp it’s a penalty. It’s blatantly obvious Farrell attempts to wrap his arms (unlike say SBW’s red card) and so it is perfectly legal given it was not a high tackle.

All a lot of fuss over nothing. It’d be useful if people know their laws



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2018 21:14 by sarricen.

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
SarrieSaint (IP Logged)
03 November, 2018 22:49
To me absolutely the right call but equally I am sure there are referees that would have given it. My confidence that he won't be cited in the next 24 hours however is not high given the recent Lozo fiasco.

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
Darraghgirl (IP Logged)
03 November, 2018 23:01
So what exactly is the law on citing when the ref and TMO have had a look at it ?

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
SarrieSaint (IP Logged)
03 November, 2018 23:04
Citing commish can still independently decide its a citable offence in the next 24 hours I believe DG.

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
SarrieGirl (IP Logged)
04 November, 2018 05:54
Citing officers can only report things that are deemed to be ‘red-card offences’ though can’t they ?

No way in the world was that worthy of a red-card ! Point of impact was chest/shoulder, no contact with Esterhuizen’s head...!

IMO it’s a lot of fuss over nothing ! The angle of the players, the speed of Esterhuizen’s run & the force of Farrell’s tackle all made them bounce off each other almost immediately on impact giving Farrell no opportunity to complete the full wrap of the arms ! His left arm was most definitely attempting to come around !

Different officials may have seen it as a penalty but if they are going to start dishing out cards/suspensions for tackles like that, then the term ‘the game is going soft’ will start to become more & more appropriate !

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
John Tee (IP Logged)
04 November, 2018 07:19
Quote:
SarrieGirl
Citing officers can only report things that are deemed to be ‘red-card offences’ though can’t they ?
No way in the world was that worthy of a red-card ! Point of impact was chest/shoulder, no contact with Esterhuizen’s head...!

IMO it’s a lot of fuss over nothing ! The angle of the players, the speed of Esterhuizen’s run & the force of Farrell’s tackle all made them bounce off each other almost immediately on impact giving Farrell no opportunity to complete the full wrap of the arms ! His left arm was most definitely attempting to come around !

Different officials may have seen it as a penalty but if they are going to start dishing out cards/suspensions for tackles like that, then the term ‘the game is going soft’ will start to become more & more appropriate !

But that is exactly what they are doing. You don't have to look far in the Pl to see that.

Looking around the boards I'd say a small majority see that as lucky there was no sanction..against Saracen's fans who thought it was fine.

I thought it was lucky the ref didn't give a pen.

But, still a get out of jail result.

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
04 November, 2018 12:33
If he'd done that at Eden Park, he would have been hung drawn and quartered!



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Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
Rupes (IP Logged)
04 November, 2018 12:59
Matt Dawson summed it up well on 5Live - anywhere but Twickenham, that's a penalty all day long. I suspect if Dylan Hartley had done that in a Premiership game on Faz at Franklin's Gardens, there would have been people here calling for him to be run over in the car park by way of pennance...

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
04 November, 2018 13:17
I was watching in a noisy pub, but I thought that, when the TMO put the video on the screen, Gardner told him what he thought and the TMO agreed.

Which is the way it should be. Sole arbiter...



£676.97 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2017.

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
Chief Fire Water (IP Logged)
04 November, 2018 14:50
Should of been a penalty. Feel sorry for SA as this cost them the game.

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
Roger G (IP Logged)
04 November, 2018 14:54
Quote:
Chief Fire Water
Should of been a penalty. Feel sorry for SA as this cost them the game.

Why to both statements? Ref seemed to explain why it wasn't a penalty, and even if it had been it wasn't a nailed on score - possible, even probable, but not nailed on considering the outcome of earlier shots at goal and line outs.

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
John Tee (IP Logged)
04 November, 2018 15:57
That was the game there and then and Boks can feel aggrieved. I would be.
The risk was pen or worse, it worked out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/11/2018 16:01 by John Tee.

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
Dave Berko (IP Logged)
04 November, 2018 16:19
If that tackle had happened 20 minutes earlier none of this discussion would have taken place IMHO.

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
vunipolae (IP Logged)
04 November, 2018 16:46
Quote:
Dave Berko
If that tackle had happened 20 minutes earlier none of this discussion would have taken place IMHO.

Interesting you say that, in the 43rd minute Teo did exactly the same tackle Owen is being so cirticised for. He also did one in the first half with significantly less arms than Owen which forced a knock on. The tackle which led to the penalty SA scored from in the second half involved a shoulder to Kruis head.

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
ExLoosehead (IP Logged)
04 November, 2018 16:49
Typing as an unbiased Welshman I thought it definitely a RED card. Faz has loads of priors so should be looking at a week or three from the Citing Officer IMHO

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
04 November, 2018 16:55
Quote:
ExLoosehead
Typing as an unbiased Welshman I thought it definitely a RED card. Faz has loads of priors so should be looking at a week or three from the Citing Officer IMHO

Too late now. 24 Hrs is up.

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
Chief Fire Water (IP Logged)
04 November, 2018 17:10
Quote:
Roger G
Quote:
Chief Fire Water
Should of been a penalty. Feel sorry for SA as this cost them the game.

Why to both statements? Ref seemed to explain why it wasn't a penalty, and even if it had been it wasn't a nailed on score - possible, even probable, but not nailed on considering the outcome of earlier shots at goal and line outs.

Why? No arms simply

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
tpr's headmistress (IP Logged)
04 November, 2018 17:17
Quote:
GazzaFez
Quote:
ExLoosehead
Typing as an unbiased Welshman I thought it definitely a RED card. Faz has loads of priors so should be looking at a week or three from the Citing Officer IMHO

Too late now. 24 Hrs is up.

They have been known to take until Wednesday to make a decision.(Sm124)

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
tpr's headmistress (IP Logged)
04 November, 2018 18:02
However, my comic (the Mail) is saying he's in the clear!

Farrell cleared to face NZ

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
T7F (IP Logged)
04 November, 2018 18:08
No citing

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
EnfieldMal (IP Logged)
04 November, 2018 18:32
Quote:
Chief Fire Water
Should of been a penalty. Feel sorry for SA as this cost them the game.

SA could have won the game. But 3 stupidly over thrown line owns in the 22 & their 10 not getting either the conversation or the missed penalty, SA cost themselves the match not any ref decision. In fact there’s a video clip doingcthe rounds on twitter on George Kruis which is a far more obvious should to head shot but didn’t get looked at & not cited. So maybe if you believe it was a red it’s all evened out

For me it was a perfectly legal tackle because as the laws say needs to try & use arena. When refs are reviewing possible shoulder charges you hear “no attempt to use their arms” when they are going for a card. There was an attempt with his arm but the collision was so big that like a car crash they were both thrown away from each other. At the time it looked like Faz had really hurt himself but he’s a tough cookie

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
John Tee (IP Logged)
04 November, 2018 18:45
Have to say it looks worse everytime I see it.
I feared the worse at the time and I think we were very lucky to not even get a pen.

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
sarricen (IP Logged)
04 November, 2018 20:01
It amazes me how many ‘england’ fans would happily have seen us lose the game just because of a dislike of one player.

This is in spite of he ref, tmo, assistant refs and citing commissioner saying it’s fine, because it does not fall foul of law 9 part 16

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
Squawker2 (IP Logged)
04 November, 2018 21:12
Those who wanted it to be a citing were really drinking up something special, since it was never red card worthy.

It really comes down to how confident do you have to be that Faz wasn't attempting to wrap his arms.

I thought it was generous, but not raving bonkers, to not award a penalty ~~~~



-----------------------------------------------------

Stuart Barnes is a Cock Womble

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
Exiled Falcon (IP Logged)
04 November, 2018 21:19
Quote:
sarricen
It amazes me how many ‘england’ fans would happily have seen us lose the game just because of a dislike of one player.
This is in spite of he ref, tmo, assistant refs and citing commissioner saying it’s fine, because it does not fall foul of law 9 part 16

Re the first point, couldn’t agree more. Re the second point, amazes me how many keyboard rugby fans feel they have a better knowledge of the laws of the game than said ref, tmo, assistant refs and citing commissioner.

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
Eric Browett (IP Logged)
05 November, 2018 05:22
i agree with both points, but there is a third point, and that is in the present climate you would have expected a penalty to have been given.

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
1876-Fez (IP Logged)
05 November, 2018 06:23
EnfieldMal... this clip.
This would show the ref was being consistent?

[twitter.com]

I cant see. to just get the video...



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Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
Convex Hull (IP Logged)
05 November, 2018 06:51
Quote:
1876-Fez
EnfieldMal... this clip.
This would show the ref was being consistent?

[twitter.com]

I cant see. to just get the video...

They both look dodgy to me. smiling smiley



Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
westwaleswasp (IP Logged)
05 November, 2018 07:07
Quote:
sarricen
It amazes me how many ‘england’ fans would happily have seen us lose the game just because of a dislike of one player.
This is in spite of he ref, tmo, assistant refs and citing commissioner saying it’s fine, because it does not fall foul of law 9 part 16

They want England to lose because they want a change of coach, and because we probably deserved to lose just like so many 2017 matches that we scraped home in. It is not the one incident at the end any more than the pen they missed a few mins earlier.
Surely the citing comissioner can't say if it was a penalty, only if it hits the threshold for red?

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
Old Curmudgeon (IP Logged)
05 November, 2018 07:24
Rule number one in this wonderful game is that “Sirs” decision is final!

He was also backed up by the TMO and now the citing officer.

Were it a Leicester,Wasps or Quins player would there be such hue and cry?

Would the lynch mob be saying and banner headlines be screaming “@#@*@# fantastic tackle gives England win”.

So many pundits and yesterdays men are undermining the authority of the person with the whistle and giving parents the impetus to scream from the sidelines at the volunteers in the middle and the lines. This is rugby not football; the thin edge of the wedge is in place.

We are the Millwall of rugby; no one likes us, we don’t care.

Deep breath, smile, move on to further glory

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
1876-Fez (IP Logged)
05 November, 2018 07:51
Quote:
Convex Hull
Quote:
1876-Fez
EnfieldMal... this clip.
This would show the ref was being consistent?

[twitter.com]

I cant see. to just get the video...

They both look dodgy to me. smiling smiley

So some sort of 'dodgy' consistency then!!



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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2018 07:51 by 1876-Fez.

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
westwaleswasp (IP Logged)
05 November, 2018 07:57
It has got nothing to do with the player. Nothing to do with Sarries.
Had it been Hartley or Hughes the reaction would be the same. Lozowski and Cipriani have had bans recently for stuff not noticably worse.
There is no lynch mob.

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
sarricen (IP Logged)
05 November, 2018 10:30
Quote:
westwaleswasp
It has got nothing to do with the player. Nothing to do with Sarries.
Had it been Hartley or Hughes the reaction would be the same. Lozowski and Cipriani have had bans recently for stuff not noticably worse.
There is no lynch mob.

Oh please. Cipriani hit the guys head. That’s almost always an automatic red. Farrell didn’t so the incidents aren’t comparable

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
JO'G (IP Logged)
05 November, 2018 11:20
the title says it all

That TACKLE by Faz

made to look worse because the collision happened faster than planned because of acceleration into the contact space by both players. As a result the wrapping arms were after the bounce. Hit him around the nipple line

get over it

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
John Tee (IP Logged)
05 November, 2018 11:49
Quote:
JO'G
the title says it all
That TACKLE by Faz

made to look worse because the collision happened faster than planned because of acceleration into the contact space by both players. As a result the wrapping arms were after the bounce. Hit him around the nipple line

get over it

This site is supporting their player.. Understandable
Other sites are tending to think very lucky there was no pen.
Thats it, we got away with it.
Games turn on such decisions and decision went our way.
Are we being fair and objective or partisan...?

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
beshocked (IP Logged)
05 November, 2018 13:17
Bit of a clumsy challenge by Farrell but there is a clear effort made to wrap arms.

Could it have been given as a penalty? Yes.

It was a 50-50 call that went England's way for once.

Seen SA be jammy too many times.

In slo mo to be fair it looks worse but it's certainly not a red card offence.


I've seen worse challenges by Farrell not even getting a penalty but in this case - it's not a shoulder charge.

Farrell's timing was a bit off and if there was no effort made to wrap arms he'd be in trouble.

On the other hand, a penalty could have easily been awarded. There's no guarantee - SA would have nailed it anyway.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/2018 13:21 by beshocked.

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
Sara'sman (IP Logged)
05 November, 2018 13:51
Quote:
T7F
No citing

Are the Irish/EPCR not allowed to appeal this one too? (Sm26)

Clearly a borderline decision that in todays climate could have gone either way, but consistent with earlier interpretations on the day including far worse challenges (the double shoulder to Kruis' head, the no arms hit on May before Shields' major cock-up, May's tackle round the head in injury time, …). The idiots calling for red show no knowledge of the Laws, just like the Graun's reporters still referring to a high tackle.

It is a shame that the anti-Farrell brigade, particularly Tee, don't open their eyes to the above rather than repeat the same drivel in multiple posts across so many threads on different boards. Good to see some intelligent debate/points on the Bath board.

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
EnfieldMal (IP Logged)
05 November, 2018 14:07
[twitter.com] It’s not as obviously a red card as this tackle

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
Convex Hull (IP Logged)
05 November, 2018 14:20
Beshocked nailed it for me, clumsy, made more clumsy by the pace.

It could have gone either way and I don't think Mr Tee is being provocative, despite being an admirer of Farrell since I first saw him in the Rosslyn Park sevens when he was 17.



Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
05 November, 2018 14:28
Quote:
Exiled Falcon
amazes me how many keyboard rugby fans feel they have a better knowledge of the laws of the game than said ref, tmo, assistant refs and citing commissioner.

Always amazes me how many rugby fans conflate the two entirely separate issues of knowledge of the laws, which are in the main straightforward, and the wildly inconsistent way they are interpreted by said officials. In these circumstances I don't believe for a moment they are any better. The problem is there is far too much subjectivity. Witness the fact that every time such an incident happens there is an plethora of opinion. In the Lozowski case the ref, and two separate citing panels couldn't agree on a consistent 'verdict'.

I say again it's not knowledge of the laws that's the problem, it's interpretation thereof. The classic example is the ubiquitous forward pass fiasco which rears its head several times each season.

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
beshocked (IP Logged)
05 November, 2018 16:01
Quote:
GazzaFez
Quote:
Exiled Falcon
amazes me how many keyboard rugby fans feel they have a better knowledge of the laws of the game than said ref, tmo, assistant refs and citing commissioner.

Always amazes me how many rugby fans conflate the two entirely separate issues of knowledge of the laws, which are in the main straightforward, and the wildly inconsistent way they are interpreted by said officials. In these circumstances I don't believe for a moment they are any better. The problem is there is far too much subjectivity. Witness the fact that every time such an incident happens there is an plethora of opinion. In the Lozowski case the ref, and two separate citing panels couldn't agree on a consistent 'verdict'.

I say again it's not knowledge of the laws that's the problem, it's interpretation thereof. The classic example is the ubiquitous forward pass fiasco which rears its head several times each season.

I do think there was consistency with Lozowski - trying to screw things up as much as possible. One of the dodgiest disciplinary panels.

Unfortunately Lozowski suffered as a result and still he's unavailable for Saracens.

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
John Tee (IP Logged)
05 November, 2018 16:54
Quote:
Sara'sman
Quote:
T7F
No citing

Are the Irish/EPCR not allowed to appeal this one too? (Sm26)

Clearly a borderline decision that in todays climate could have gone either way, but consistent with earlier interpretations on the day including far worse challenges (the double shoulder to Kruis' head, the no arms hit on May before Shields' major cock-up, May's tackle round the head in injury time, …). The idiots calling for red show no knowledge of the Laws, just like the Graun's reporters still referring to a high tackle.

It is a shame that the anti-Farrell brigade, particularly Tee, don't open their eyes to the above rather than repeat the same drivel in multiple posts across so many threads on different boards. Good to see some intelligent debate/points on the Bath board.

I'll spell it out for you as you as struggling to grasp my point. I could quite easily have seen a pen given.

Even Farrell himself was said to be nervous on the outcome.

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
Quinten Poulsen (IP Logged)
05 November, 2018 19:22
I thought it should have been a penalty as it looked like too much shoulder and not enough attempt to wrap. Very happy it wasn't given though, and the huge Saffa needed putting on his backside!

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
AP (IP Logged)
06 November, 2018 06:57
Quote:
Quinten Poulsen
I thought it should have been a penalty as it looked like too much shoulder and not enough attempt to wrap. Very happy it wasn't given though, and the huge Saffa needed putting on his backside!

I think that says everything that needs to be said!

Glad to see that you are still frequenting these boards, QP, and not staying in exile.



Successful hills are here to stay
Everything must be this way
Gentle streets where people play
Welcome to the Soft Parade



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/11/2018 06:59 by AP.

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
VyvyansNo1Fan (IP Logged)
06 November, 2018 09:22
For me a clear Penalty as no attempt to wrap the arms...also very lucky in the current climate not to get a red card. OF was fortunate the guy was tall, if he was 4 inches shorter OF shoulder would have made contact with the head for an undebatable red.

Hard to see how Danny Cip got a red and OF gets nothing. There was clear intent on the part of OF whereas DC was backing off at the time.

Strange decision and very surprised at the reaction here which is attempting to ignore the evidence of our own eyes...there we clearly no arms used by OF at the point of contact.

 
Re: Poll: That tackle by Faz
london pride (IP Logged)
06 November, 2018 09:53
The referee,touch judge,TMO and later on the citing officer all think it was OK.Thats good enough for me.

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