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Re: Sale v Saracens..
MarchingIn (IP Logged)
04 January, 2019 21:58
You're getting nothing out if the ref because your players are getting spotted starting more off ball niggles, and multiple players are gettting warned for the way they've spoken to the ref, Farrell 3 games in a row which is appalling.

Looks like you really miss Brad Barritt's leadership as well as marshalling the backline defensively.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
london pride (IP Logged)
04 January, 2019 21:59
Discipline lost the game for Sarries tonight,how many times did the ref warn Sarries about yelling at the ref or TJ.Upset the ref and you give yourself a mountain to climb.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
1876-Fez (IP Logged)
04 January, 2019 22:00
Quote:
MarchingIn
You're getting nothing out if the ref because your players are getting spotted starting more off ball niggles, and multiple players are gettting warned for the way they've spoken to the ref, Farrell 3 games in a row which is appalling.
Looks like you really miss Brad Barritt's leadership as well as marshalling the backline defensively.

Good points and IMHO...correct..



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Re: Sale v Saracens..
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
04 January, 2019 22:01
Solomona won the game for Sale assisted by Carley. A brilliant solo effort for the first try followed by escaping two yellow cards which of course would have resulted in a red. The first for the no-arms shoulder drop into Vinnie and the second for the high table on Maitland. Both were straight yellows without any doubt. That was Carley's fault.

Add to the mix that clearly we were very poor yet again and we were lucky in the end to come away with a LBP.

Ironically we're all hacked off with this evening's result and yet no one has mentioned that we are top of the Prem again, at least overnight!

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
OhMaroItoje (IP Logged)
04 January, 2019 22:08
Quote:
GazzaFez
Solomona won the game for Sale assisted by Carley. A brilliant solo effort for the first try followed by escaping two yellow cards which of course would have resulted in a red. The first for the no-arms shoulder drop into Vinnie and the second for the high table on Maitland. Both were straight yellows without any doubt. That was Carley's fault.
Add to the mix that clearly we were very poor yet again and we were lucky in the end to come away with a LBP.

Ironically we're all hacked off with this evening's result and yet no one has mentioned that we are top of the Prem again, at least overnight!

Both of Solomonaís incidents were penalties but both would have been harsh yellows. The ref was very poor but we donít help ourselves and I donít think he was the reason for the loss.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
Chris1850 (IP Logged)
04 January, 2019 22:17
Quote:
GazzaFez
Solomona won the game for Sale assisted by Carley. A brilliant solo effort for the first try followed by escaping two yellow cards which of course would have resulted in a red. The first for the no-arms shoulder drop into Vinnie and the second for the high table on Maitland. Both were straight yellows without any doubt. That was Carley's fault.
Add to the mix that clearly we were very poor yet again and we were lucky in the end to come away with a LBP.

Ironically we're all hacked off with this evening's result and yet no one has mentioned that we are top of the Prem again, at least overnight!

Repeat. Williams was an obvious yellow in the first half. Carley prevented a clear try in the 2nd half by calling the play back simply to give Farrell yet another ticking off. Sorry but to say Carley cost you the game is claptrap

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
maynas (IP Logged)
04 January, 2019 22:21
Forget bleating about the ref, we were poor. OF just isnít a Captain at the moment and really should have been rested tonight anyway after the last couple of weeks. We gave away a shed load of penalties, ignored the ref on many occasions, had an awful scrum performance, some bad defending (as commentators pointed out both centers standing together in defence), and no continuity in attack to wear Sale down. Itís sadly getting worse each week , good job Lyon arenít in the running in Europe and hopefully wont play their best team but on this performance Glasgow will beat us easily unless we can improve soon.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
cwrich (IP Logged)
04 January, 2019 22:24
Quote:
maynas
Forget bleating about the ref, we were poor. OF just isnít a Captain at the moment and really should have been rested tonight anyway after the last couple of weeks. We gave away a shed load of penalties, ignored the ref on many occasions, had an awful scrum performance, some bad defending (as commentators pointed out both centers standing together in defence), and no continuity in attack to wear Sale down. Itís sadly getting worse each week , good job Lyon arenít in the running in Europe and hopefully wont play their best team but on this performance Glasgow will beat us easily unless we can improve soon.

This

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
SarrieSaint (IP Logged)
04 January, 2019 22:27
Negatives all too obvious.

Positives: Tompkins played well and deserved a try, Billy didn't get injured and had a good run out and the team got an LBP despite two yellows. Farrell kicking the ball off at the end was a decent bit of game-management given how it had gone to then and that Sarries had a point. Onwards to the Lyon game!

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
#wolfpack (IP Logged)
04 January, 2019 22:29
Quote:
SarrieSaint
Onwards to the Lyon game!

Gulp

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
The Bard (IP Logged)
04 January, 2019 22:31
Its pretty clear our recent run-in with officials means we wonít get the benefit of any doubt. But there is no way the Williams challenge was a yellow. Our forwards were completely outplayed tonight, very disappointing as this looked to be the area where we had the upper hand. The energy of Ben Earl was really missed, will be very interesting to see if he gets the nod next week. Nick Isiekwe unfortunately seems to be suffering with a bit of second season syndrome after his stellar year last season.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
SarrieSaint (IP Logged)
04 January, 2019 22:36
Forget the stuff about Carley.

He was poor but the team headed by the captain seem to have a major attitude problem. Even if the referee is "against" you behaving in the manner the team did isn't going to improve things. Regardless of whether Barritt is back or not I think a change in captaincy is required as the way the team have been penalised in the last weeks seem to have no demonstrable change in Farrells behavior.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
The Bard (IP Logged)
04 January, 2019 22:40
It would be a massive move to take it away from Owen, but someone like Schalk Burger might be a calmer head. Jamie George another?

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
SarrieSaint (IP Logged)
04 January, 2019 22:49
Problem with Burger is tbh I think it's a bit tricky to justify a start for him in current form. I think George is a good shout but wouldn't the ideal be someone who isn't going to be called up for Internationals? who that person is however ...

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
nicsue (IP Logged)
04 January, 2019 23:09
Quote:
SarrieSaint
Problem with Burger is tbh I think it's a bit tricky to justify a start for him in current form. I think George is a good shout but wouldn't the ideal be someone who isn't going to be called up for Internationals? who that person is however ...

Alex Goode (Sm159)

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
04 January, 2019 23:14
A knee jerk reaction to the captaincy is just plain draft. I guarantee you it's not going to happen. McCall wouldn't consider it for a second for starters. It's not the way the team works. Brad will be back soon enough anyway so there's no chance of cutting Faz loose at this stage.

Owen could however tone it down a bit, but I honestly feel half the problem is with the weaker/poorer referees who can't deal with a strong willed young man without taking it as a personal challenge to themselves, ultimately unhinging their impartiality and thus their ability to do the job they're paid to do. You don't see this problem with Barnes, Poitre, Nigel and even JP.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
The Bard (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 00:00
Matt Carley certainly isnít one of the weaker/poorer refs, heís a good international standard. Having a long unbeaten run hasnít helped us, we havenít dealt with adversity as well as we have in the past and part of this is our relationship with officials. Itís painful at the moment but Iím sure weíll be stronger for it in the long run.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
ballsout (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 00:09
As a neutral, I thought you guys competed quite well.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
OhMaroItoje (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 03:06
Quote:
The Bard
Matt Carley certainly isnít one of the weaker/poorer refs, heís a good international standard. Having a long unbeaten run hasnít helped us, we havenít dealt with adversity as well as we have in the past and part of this is our relationship with officials. Itís painful at the moment but Iím sure weíll be stronger for it in the long run.

Not sure about ďinternational standardĒ. He could barely referee the varsity match a few years back to a good level.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
TonyTaff (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 05:23
Quote:
Highbury Saracen
please can Brad come back & captain us next week!!! smiling smiley

Too right, our ref management is a pile of ordure!



£721.05 (*) donated to the Saracens Foundation due to visits to the Sarries frontpage [www.rugbynetwork.net]

Please read and submit articles for publication. (*) As at October 31, 2018.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
F-F-F-FEZ (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 08:11
Quote:
Waldo
Quote:
#wolfpack
Doesnít that at the end sum it upó not even Faz thought we had a hope of scoring from 70m.

Agree -Exeter would have gone for it.

Weíve lost our edge and we need to get it back sharpish.

I'd read that as Faz banking the LBP as we were throwing some eminently interceptable passes around to try and get a line break.

I'm thinking that we as fans are spoiled with the usual winning percentages - this team is not a winning machine and every great team has off matches/runs. I'm just proud to follow them through thick and thin - it's the least one can do. (Sm152)

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
TOKS (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 08:23
I think the decision to kick the ball out at the end was a good one as I suspect the TMO was frantically trying to find something to bring to Carley's attention.

Tom Curry must wish he had Carley "reffing" (in the loosest sense of the word) him every week. From the pre-meditated late shoulder charge early on to slowing the ball down at virtually every breakdown he had Carley on toast.

A very naive (and possibly pre-meditated) performance by Carley, and very one-eyed ones from the TMO and Greg McDonald (the wholly incorrect scrum pen he called from 60 yards away would have been comical if it wasn't). The only official to emerge with any credit was again Christophe Ridley, he is going to be a very good one for the future.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
Eric Browett (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 08:30
we need to embrace our core values as a club or dump them. We were petulant and Ill disciplined. We are gaining a reputation with refs and are suffering for it. Our set piece is struggling at present. Id like to see Gray give a bench place as the only backup hooker who can hit a line out.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/01/2019 11:07 by TonyTaff.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
The Bard (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 08:39
The lineout generally went better than I thought it might, but we messed up the two that could have got us back into the game. Unfortunately Jamie has been far from perfect recently either. Certainly agree that Gray has looked solid when weíve seen him

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
villagesarrie (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 08:49
I agree with some of what Eric Browett says. I think we are, currently,showing ourselves up as poor losers with little respect for referees (regardless of whether some deserve that respect or not, IMHO of course), we seem to have lost our cohesiveness and, in my view, seem to be playing a bit more as individuals, as in the bad old days. We seem to have lost sight of a core fact that poor discipline costs you matches and gets the referees, consciously or not, looking for things to ping you for. We had to play yesterday's match with 14 men for 20 minutes and that was a huge help to Sharks frankly, no matter how well they were playing. However, we also need to get some perspective as well - 2 losses out of 25 matches is not a bad record, we still have quite a few titles under our belt and it is only halfway through the season with plenty of time to sort out some issues which have sprung up. We should also accept that being at the top is not an entitlement but something that has to be earned by going back to what we've been best at, discipline, cool heads under pressure and grinding out a win if need be without panic. I was not happy last night because I think we should have been so much better. That doesn't detract from the fact that Sale played extremely well and deserved that win.. but we just didn't even seem capable of thinking calmly under pressure and just fell apart.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
HUGHVILLE (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 09:22
As a neutral in last night's game. I though Sale well deserved their win as Sarries seem to have lost their bite recently and were lucky to get a bonus point. It is a pity that Farrell a very talented player constantly lets himself down by his petulance. Being captain requires self control and leadership sadly lacking in both. The yellow card was border line but he has been guilty of several bits of thuggery and got away with it. It may look like referees are waiting to punish him, but that his own fault. Learn to keep to mouth shut and he will be the better captain for it.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
SarrieSaint (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 09:34
Quote:
GazzaFez
A knee jerk reaction to the captaincy is just plain draft. I guarantee you it's not going to happen.

It's not knee-jerk though is it? How Farrell interacts with the referee has been a "work in progress" for a while but each of the last three games including the one Barritt had to go off has been worse and worse. I don't think this is something you play through nor should there be no consequences for repeating such an ill-disciplined performance as captain.

Quote:
GazzaFez
I honestly feel half the problem is with the weaker/poorer referees who can't deal with a strong willed young man without taking it as a personal challenge to themselves, ultimately unhinging their impartiality and thus their ability to do the job they're paid to do.

Personally I don't see it that way GazzaFez but even if it is that is still Sarries problem not the referees. If we're hoping our problem is solved by the referees changing their behaviour I'll suggest we're on a hiding to nothing.

As bad as the discipline was the perception that Sarries have a discipline problem is even worse as that will follow the club around even once they have (hopefully) sorted the issue. Same deal with the amount of penalties Mako is giving away at the moment. The Chiefs/Foley game was a farce with Francis with his feet too far back and face-planting almost every scrum even when it was obvious that Mako wasn't hinging. Unfortunately he is starting to carry a rep as a weaker scrummager and calls are being made on that basis. Yesterday as far as I could see other than when he missed his bind he was again subject to some poor calls but he and Peel need to address what it is the referees are seeing and not liking.

Agree with F-F-Fez about Farrell getting the ball off. With the way the game had gone an LBP was a result. I could easily see a poor decison beyiond that point handing Sale a try or penalty and denying Sarries anything.

Also agree with TOKS about Curry but the Sale backrow in general. That's where you need a calm captain getting clarity from the referee about how the game is allowed to be played. Sale players straight off their feet at every ruck and slowing or killing ball. I counted at least five individual warnings for Curry (although I appreciate his brother was also came on) including one where he was warned, kept on going the ball popped out the side and Sale got a tunrover. Calm captain needs asking hiow many warnings a player gets, asking if its alright to go straioght off feet at breakdown because then we'll do it to.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
RobV (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 10:38
On the other hand - Sale played very well, and look a real force once their backline get going. Faf is world class and caught Spenno hesitating twice - something that has happened before and should be rectified. Probably the best scrummie in the world right now, some dangermen out wide and a pack whom eventually got the better of ours; always going to lose. Well done Sale.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
EverOptimistic (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 10:43
Quote:
TOKS
A very naive (and possibly pre-meditated) performance by Carley, and very one-eyed ones from the TMO and Greg McDonald (the wholly incorrect scrum pen he called from 60 yards away would have been comical if it wasn't). The only official to emerge with any credit was again Christophe Ridley, he is going to be a very good one for the future.

Was willing you to win last night but definitely some officiating bias in there for whatever reason. Greg McDonald has previous and as far as I know hasn't reffed a prem game since wrongly awarding Exeter a penalty try to give them the win against Bris. He has a long way to go before he refs another game IMO but unfortunately still has an effect from the sidelines.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
Convex Hull (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 10:57
I picked up some flak for saying that Saracens played badly against Worcester. Measured as a team performance, recent outings have been on a par with the years before Venter, the only difference being that the individual skill levels are higher now.

It is to be expected from time to time; the most worrying aspect from my viewpoint is that Mark McCall seems to be denying there is a problem, at least publicly. I can't recall him ever having done that in the past, he is usually the first to find fault, in a constructive manner. Of course, what he says in public maybe very different from what he says to the players.

On the issue of refereeing, bias is in the eye of the beholder. If a situation arises where it is generally perceived that the officials are seeking to favour one team then there is little incentive, for me at least, to watch the game or buy tickets.



Regardez mon visage. Suis-je bovvered?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2019 11:07 by Convex Hull.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
samlee99 (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 12:05
Quote:
GazzaFez
Solomona done for identical seat-belt tackle on Maitland but only a penalty. Where's the yellow card? Carley is a totally unprofessional joke.

The joke was Saracens discipline and even more so the captaincy.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
SarrieSaint (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 12:40
Where did that bad smell come from? maybe if we ignore it it will go away?

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
1876-Fez (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 13:03
Quote:
SarrieSaint
Where did that bad smell come from? maybe if we ignore it it will go away?

The problem that if you ignore it, the poor soul may suffer from lack of attention on these boards as they obviously do in the real world... we should pity them really...



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Re: Sale v Saracens..
AB (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 13:17
Calm down everyone we have only lost 2 games and got a losing bonus point with sheer grit.

For every premier team that plays us they are playing the champions and that well and truly inspires them.

Sale are a very good teams as per the result against Gloucester the previous week. Remember also we are the only premiership club with a realistic chance of going further in Europe. The league is very competitive and we are still at the top.

All teams have off days but we didn't implode - we have as supporters got so used to winning that any loss really hurts. No team can go through season without some hiccups and last year we came good at the end.

Just look at Wasps and Leicester and Gloucester and Newcastle and be happy we are where we are now.

Get behind the team and show our support

Everybody said Liverpool were streets ahead yet they had a hiccup as did City.

Be positive

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 13:43
Quote:
SarrieSaint
It's not knee-jerk though is it?

We're top of the league, top of our pool in the ECC and 2nd seed overall, we've lost 2 games in the last 25 only one of which where Faz started as captain and you're calling for him to be hung out and dried! That is the very epitome of a knee-jerk reaction. Get a grip will you.

Quote:
SarrieSaint

Quote:
GazzaFez
I honestly feel half the problem is with the weaker/poorer referees who can't deal with a strong willed young man without taking it as a personal challenge to themselves, ultimately unhinging their impartiality and thus their ability to do the job they're paid to do.

Personally I don't see it that way GazzaFez but even if it is that is still Sarries problem not the referees. If we're hoping our problem is solved by the referees changing their behaviour I'll suggest we're on a hiding to nothing.


It's a problem for everyone, including the referee. As soon as referees start seeing matches as a personal battle between themselves and some 'mouthy upstart' two things happen. 1) They ruin the game and no one wants to pay to see that 2) They lose any semblance of respect they had from the rest of the players and it all spirals downhill. Your suggestion that it's 'our problem' and suggesting we should suck it up isn't going to wash. It's a difficult job (and remember it is a job) being a referee and it's even more difficult to be a good one. But being sucked into a personal battle of wills (with any player) marks you out as someone who will never make the grade. As a referee you've fallen at the first hurdle. They simply have to rise above it. Some have got it and others haven't; Carley, Foley and Tempest being the obvious suspects IMHO. Others have just 'got it' and the very young Christophe Ridley seems to command respect and referee exceedingly well because he does his job exceptionally well. You'd have to look far and wide to find anyone who thinks otherwise.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
Chris1850 (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 13:57
The solution is simple. As captain, it is up to you to 'play the ref'. You only had to watch Farrells body language last night, let alone listen to him, to know that he is completely incapable of doing this. Watch it back and compare his attitude with Jono Ross. Chalk and cheese.

Farrell is a fantastic FH but he is no captain, in spite of what he may think. Leave him to concentrate on what he does best.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
Norton Canes (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 14:03
Quote:
TOKS
I think the decision to kick the ball out at the end was a good one as I suspect the TMO was frantically trying to find something to bring to Carley's attention.
Tom Curry must wish he had Carley "reffing" (in the loosest sense of the word) him every week. From the pre-meditated late shoulder charge early on to slowing the ball down at virtually every breakdown he had Carley on toast.

A very naive (and possibly pre-meditated) performance by Carley, and very one-eyed ones from the TMO and Greg McDonald (the wholly incorrect scrum pen he called from 60 yards away would have been comical if it wasn't). The only official to emerge with any credit was again Christophe Ridley, he is going to be a very good one for the future.
TOKs a very critical review of the match officials. I think the TMO brought two incidents to the referee 1) that was the Saracens 16 take out at the ruck 2) and advised the Skelton tackle was play on. Do you disagree with the TMO decisions?

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
SarrieSaint (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 14:16
Quote:
GazzaFez
we've lost 2 games in the last 25 only one of which where Faz started as captain and you're calling for him to be hung out and dried! That is the very epitome of a knee-jerk reaction. Get a grip will you.

Whose asking for him to be hung out to dry? I think he's showed over a prolonged period that he's a brilliant competitor and leader on the field (by example and enthusiasm) but his inability to manage the referee even when talking to them as a non-captain is hardly a recent thing. I appreciate one approach is to keep backing him and hope he sorts it but the other is to find someone who has the composure to manage the referee better now rather than in the future that's all I am suggesting. Discipline, as well as leadership, come from the top and right now I think his attitude is being reflected through the team.

Quote:
GazzaFez
It's a problem for everyone, including the referee ...

... and I'd like a flying pony for New Years.
We have to deal with the reality of the situation not bleat about how it's imperfect when we have the ability to manage/change it significantly ourselves as a team. Chris 1850 is spot on it's about managing the ref and even when Barritt is captain we have players regularly falling on the wrong side of calls. It's not about sucking up but about knowing how to manage a referee and talk to them and knowing that shouting at them like a petulant chuild isn't going to help anyone.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
MarchingIn (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 14:37
Quote:
GazzaFez
Owen could however tone it down a bit, but I honestly feel half the problem is with the weaker/poorer referees who can't deal with a strong willed young man without taking it as a personal challenge to themselves.

It's not "strong willed" it's undisciplined. This is not football and the referee shouldn't have to listen to 80 minutes of Owen Farrell's guide to doing your job peppered with swearing and tantrums. Watch the replay and listen to how many times Sarries are warned for back-chat, language, and sly digs at the opposition. A Captain should understand when the team are getting on the wrong side of the referee and be getting the team in line, not leading this behaviour.

The Saracens team who came from behind in the final quarter at Franklin's Gardens a few months ago were being marshalled by a rare outing for Goode at 10, and looked completely different to the Saracens who played Sale last night with largely the same players. Calm. Composed. Confident. Backed themselves to outplay Saints by upping the tempo, and did, rather than slowing the game down and turning it into an ugly slugfest. Parts of last night looked more like an impersonation of the worst of Harlequins front row than Saracens formerly well oiled machine.

Farrell is gradually building up a number of disciplinary shortcomings. His tackling, his gob, and his propensity to get into pointless off-ball spats. Other teams have noticed this and are quietly targeting him. The more he flies about the field like a petulant toddler, the more he's going to find himself hit late, held down, shoved and so on - he needs to get a grip. Every time he starts behaving like he's rattled, certain opposition players will be rubbing their hands together, putting on their best innocent expression and wondering how they can spark an altercation or rile him up enough to make him overstep the mark with sir.

Quote:
GazzaFez
Your suggestion that it's 'our problem' and suggesting we should suck it up isn't going to wash. It's a difficult job (and remember it is a job) being a referee and it's even more difficult to be a good one. But being sucked into a personal battle of wills (with any player) marks you out as someone who will never make the grade

It absolutely is 'your problem'. The referee's word is law. Owens or Barnes would march you back 10 until you were stood on the North Circular for some of what Carley's mic picked up. The message might sink in then, but it shouldn't require that. Managing the team's interactions with the ref and adapting to how he wants to run the game is a key aspect of captaincy and Farrell is simply failing at it. I dread to think what he'll be like in the 6N for England, hopefully Jones will straighten him out a bit.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
TOKS (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 14:38
Hi NC. I thought the Tolofua one was pretty marginal. He cleared out a player who a nanosecond earlier was illegally handling in the ruck (not spotted by Carley in line with virtually all other instances). So legal clear out but illegally doing it from the side - penalty only.

The Skelton one was a definite penalty, but rightly penalty only. Sale could have scored a try if Skelton hadn't committed that offence so possibly a "good" penalty to give away.

Both of the above are worrying signs of the attempts to remove physicality from the game, but that's a chat for another day.

The one that really incensed me was the non referral of Solomena's cheap off the ball shot on Koch. That was card-worthy in the extreme. Eventually Grasshoff had to look at it because BT were replying it so many times. He then said to Carley words to the effect of "chest to chest nothing in it". Which means he's either lied to Carley or he has major issues with his anatomical knowledge.

McDonald is that classic example of someone who should be nowhere near a rugby pitch (other then as a supporter or steward) but we don't want to humiliate him by demoting him from referee to nothing. So we'll let him run the line and make errors from there rather than in the middle. I thought TJs were supposed to be qualified versions of the man in the middle so that they could take over in the event of an injury for example, not failed examples of the man in the middle (not that Carley wasn't a failed example himself last night).

Anyway in amongst all that Sale weren't at fault for the referee, and they played really well. I hope they make top 4 as their improvement in form from last season really merits it.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
John Tee (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 14:49
Sale good value for the win. They backed up last week's win well. If their injury list isn't too critical, they can play and compete for top 4 so credit were credit is due Imv.

Farrell yellow harsh but maybe the ref wasn't very sympathetic to him. Williams lucky and the barge in the back was nasty. A blind hit, Imv and agree with the yellow.

Saracens can afford to lose a few games as the 3rd or 4th place teams will lose far more. This a more competitive league certainly for mid table so everyone is going to lose and have bad days.
Saracens and Chiefs just have less than others.
As a neutral, I like to see results mixed up but hope the chasing teams are getting better rather the top two dropping off.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
GazzaFez (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 15:13
Quote:
SarrieSaint

Whose asking for him to be hung out to dry?

You did....in black and white. Plus the whole tone of your posts makes this quite clear......

Quote:
SarrieSaint
nor should there be no consequences for repeating such an ill-disciplined performance as captain

...or is that just a very poor choice of words?



Quote:
SarrieSaint
... and I'd like a flying pony for New Years.

That about sums it up for me.

Quote:
SarrieSaint
We have to deal with the reality of the situation not bleat

The only bleating is from you demanding Faz be sacked as captain.

Let's wait and see what Mark McCall has to say shall we, before jumping any further onto the bandwagon. Your opinion, which you're entitled to of course, is clearly entrenched, so there's no point in continuing this.


It does leave open the spectre of what happens during the 6N and Brad gets whacked again and Faz is away. Luckily we've not had to deal with this situation hardly at all. Probably Wiggy but now there's every chance he could be away as well.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
beshocked (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 17:17
The problem with Farrell in charge was spotted in the Exeter game, it's just the head in the sand brigade believe Farrell can do no wrong.

Farrell is a talented player but he's not suitable to be captain in the place of Barritt. That's the reality.

Sarriesaint is saying the logical thing.

Farrell also committed the sin of throwing in the towel in at the end. It's about attitude and confidence- a side struggling with belief and discipline would do exactly what Farrell did.

Other sides will feed off these defeats, oh look this is how you rattle Saracens.

Big deal Saracens got the losing bonus point, should Farrell get a medal for that?

Saracens lost an easily winnable game mainly through very poor discipline and poor basic skills.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
SarrieSaint (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 17:37
GazzaFez I will respect the agree to disagree but is taking a role away from someone who is struggling with it really hanging them out to dry? You're giving them a chance to reset, work on the issue then have another opportunity at a later date.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2019 18:54 by SarrieSaint.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
Highbury Saracen (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 18:44
It is important that the captain shows the discipline for the rest of team to follow
I would say that in Chiefs game & in Sale game Owen let standards slip & other team members followed suit......I just don't think that happens under Brad
I think it's still possible for Owen to be aggressive & show passion without the verbal stuff towards ref.......verbals that don't benefit the team!
They are quite a few frustrated players at the moment but we will come good & Faz will be a big part of it.



European champions 2016 & 2017



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/01/2019 18:51 by Highbury Saracen.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
BACK TO BLACK (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 21:18
Quote:
beshocked

Farrell also committed the sin of throwing in the towel in at the end. It's about attitude and confidence- a side struggling with belief and discipline would do exactly what Farrell did.

Other sides will feed off these defeats, oh look this is how you rattle Saracens.

Big deal Saracens got the losing bonus point, should Farrell get a medal for that?

Saracens lost an easily winnable game mainly through very poor discipline and poor basic skills.

Disagreement in peace Beshocked. This was not an easily winnable game - that is disrespectful of a Sale side that are pretty well placed for a top 4 finish IMHO. As has said before Faz banked the LBP - we were throwing some "creative" long passes in an attempt to find the gap in the Sale line. we could have come away with zero. Take what you can and move on. We're off to Lyon and I hope the entertainment will be better. See many of you there! Allez Les Noirs.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
darktagnan (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 22:07
I think our issues with rubbing refs up the wrong way have been there for much of the season, & while Faz is the most visible & audible culprit at times, he is by no means the only one. I remember Brad being told to calm down players on at least one occasion. This needs sorting out as if we carry on with the same perceived bad attitude, officials will stop giving us the benefit of the doubt for anything & it may well cost us a critical game. The whole squad needs to have the riot act read to them this week. Bad or contentious decisions are part of the game & players need to just get on with it & if any outrageous errors are made, have them highlighted afterwards.
I have no problem with Faz kicking the ball dead - we were making no ground after several phases, were stuck in our 22 and could very easily have leaked a penalty at the tackle & lost the losing BP which many would say we scarcely deserved.
Someone on another post suggested that Loz & Nick T may be the wrong way round. I'm inclined to agree with that or at any rate I don't think Loz looks as natural at 12 as he does at 13.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
DoubleChampions (IP Logged)
05 January, 2019 22:49
A few points imo:

Faz looks a bit mentally frazzled to me and our team discipline in the last 3 games has been poor. Countless times we gave Exeter the penalties to play their game in our 22. It took all of 1 minute against Worcester for Mako to get 10 metres marched and last night Sale put it up to us and we did not like it.

Faz yellow was harsh but Williams got away with a definite one so swings and roundabouts.

Beyond the first 10 minutes we had no attacking edge at all and when we got in their 22 we lost virtually every line out by errors (not straight / knock on / obstruction) to name but three all in the Sale 22.

The scrum was more difficult and strange as up until last night we had virtually no penalties against us the entire season, however, no one watching on TV can have a definitive certain POV.

BUT overall Sale were excellent after the first 10 minutes and we have to take it on the chin and be proud that an indifferent below par performance still yielded a point and only a six point defeat and I was pleased Faz took the bonus point at the end because in 6 phases or so we had made 0 ground and had we coughed the ball or given a penalty than 0 points would have been the outcome.

We cannot win every game but we need to be careful not to get the reputation that when we are not on top form we look to blame the ref and at times recently we have looked and sounded a touch petulant - refs will start getting pre conceived ideas and any 50/50 decisions will go the other way.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
MarchingIn (IP Logged)
06 January, 2019 03:18
Quote:
darktagnan
I think our issues with rubbing refs up the wrong way have been there for much of the season, & while Faz is the most visible & audible culprit at times, he is by no means the only one. I remember Brad being told to calm down players on at least one occasion. This needs sorting out

What I heard the other night was:

5 Kruis - Farrell told to warn him about mouthing off
8 Vunipola - warned directly for mouthing off
3 Koch - spotted slapping a Sale player in the head and Farrell told to warn him

All senior players. I have a feeling Isekwe was warned for something, and 16 was carded as well as Farrell.

Perhaps with Itoje and George missing, which they will be several games a year anyway, you're short of natural talkative but calm leaders in the pack and need to balance out the quietly focussed and niggly/feisty characters a bit with an experienced Tom Wood / Ed Slater sort of character coming in next season? I think Britts was a good influence in his later years during international windows, Borthwick as well until his retirement of course. Maybe that's what's missing.

I'm obviously not suggesting you actually try to tempt away Wood or Slater themselves as I realise nobody over 24 signed to a current Prem club is ever good enough for this board 😉

Might be reading it wrong as I only watch 30-40% of your games but it's a thought. With Farrell rattled it needed somebody else to calm the forwards down as they were overwhelmingly the source of the backchat and so on that wasn't coming from Owen.

 
Re: Sale v Saracens..
John Tee (IP Logged)
06 January, 2019 09:14
Kicking the ball dead was the right call in the circumstances, Imv.
The game was done and no real chance at all of improving the position and a risk of making it worse.

Not in the true sprit of the game but totally correct in this context.

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